Rooftop solar has a fraud problem. The industry is working to build back trust

[sl8]

https://www.npr.org/2024/08/14/1244330369/solar-rooftop-panels-environment-fraud-deception

Rooftop solar has a fraud problem. The industry is working to build back trust

AUGUST 14, 2024 5:15 AM ET
Jeff Brady

PHILADELPHIA — The solar power industry is booming and that growth helps the world meet its climate goals by replacing fossil fuels. But an emerging problem in the U.S. solar business that installs panels on homes risks slowing the effort to cut the country’s emissions.

Customer complaints against the country’s residential rooftop solar industry have increased dramatically in recent years. One-star ratings on Solar Reviews increased more than 1,000% since 2018. Across the country, prosecutors are investigating high-pressure sales tactics and misleading financing arrangements. Some customers say they were victims of fraud and forgery. This threatens rooftop solar’s impressive momentum. Now, some solar companies are working to repair the industry’s reputation.

[...]

“We think that having rooftop solar is good for the environment and does save people money. We don't want people deceived, though,” says Adam Welle, a lawyer with the Minnesota Attorney General's Office who is pursuing a case against solar financing companies.

Beyond the industry’s reputation, real people – many of them already financially vulnerable – have been hurt.

[...]

[Aussie105]

1. I'd love to hear from people who have solar panels as to their return on investment.

I can't see small scale solar panel installs on domestic residences being sensible or efficient.

In the early days of electricity, factories that ran electric devices had their own electricity generation capability, at a huge cost.
Then there was a slow movement to centralised, more efficient power generation.

That's where domestic solar is at now, each house has its own power generation.

I'm in favour of large scale solar farms feeding into the existing grid though.

Add to this:

Underquoting costs of installation. Nice sounding but unrealistic numbers given. (aka con job)

Overestimating return on investment.

Variable feed-in tariff if connected to the grid.

Cost of storage if not connected to the grid.

[hunter]

3. Bulldozing fragile desert environments for large scale solar "farms" is vile.

Anyone who supports that foul industry shouldn't call themselves an environmentalist.

"We had to destroy the world in order to save it!" is not an ethical position.

Humans have trashed much of the world already. The least we can do is to restrict our solar and wind follies to land that's already been trashed.

[Bengus81]

5. Solar and wind "follies"? Foul industry? Whatever............n/t

[hunter]

6. It's climate change denial light, as in "light" beer. That's why I call it folly.

Solar and wind power are totally dependent on fossil fuels for their economic viability and will only prolong our use of fossil fuels, thus doing nothing in the long run to reduce the total amount of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses humans ultimately dump into earth's atmosphere.

Solar and wind power cannot, and will not, displace fossil fuels entirely. Quitting fossil fuels entirely is something we need to do. Solar and wind power are not even a step in the right direction.

The fossil fuel companies know this. Warren Buffet knows this. He knows his wind energy investments compliment his gas investments.

For example, if California foolishly chooses to shut down the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant it would have to be replaced with gas power plants of equivalent capacity. Sure, you could add desert solar power plants on top of that (at even more expense, I might add) but with a 25% capacity factor for solar at best, natural gas power plants would still be the primary power source.

You can see how that works in near real time here:

https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/supply

There are no magical energy storage schemes on the horizon, no magical batteries, capable of storing excess solar and wind energy for those days, weeks, and sometimes months that solar and wind energy are inadequate.

Some "renewable" energy advocates propose huge hydroelectric projects or battery "farms" to store energy but those too have huge environmental footprints and turn out to be just as destructive as the desert solar projects they support.

Like it or not, there's only one energy resource capable of displacing fossil fuels entirely and that's nuclear power.

I used to be a radical anti-nuclear activist. Now I'm not.

[Bengus81]

7. Got a Nuke plant here in Kansas. They LIED their collective assess off when it was built back in the mid/late 80's...

Oh sure....it was going to be sooooo cheap to produce energy hell they might not send us a bill!! BULLSHIT...the cost overruns on that POS damn near bankrupted the utility which then was KG&E. So what to do when that happens?? RAPE the rate payers with massive rate hikes--of course all approved by the Kansas Corporation Commission and so they did.

They finally got that turd online a few years later and we enjoyed the HIGHEST electric rates in a five State area right off the bat. To this day we still pay the price of that "experiment". Not sure how much juice we get out of that plant now but about 50-60% of electricity is now created by renewable sources and natural gas fired plants probably powers a huge chunk of the remaining.

I used to be a radical anti-nuclear activist. Now I'm not.

[hunter]

8. There's enough natural gas in the ground to destroy the world as we know it.

Natural gas is the most dangerous energy source by far because people think it's "better than coal" and it supports their renewable energy fantasies.

Watch as the world burns...

Being "pro-nuclear" and supporting modern nuclear power projects, while opposing the dangerous codependency of the "renewable" energy industry and the natural gas industry, is not the slander some people who call themselves "liberals" or "environmentalists" think it is.

Returning to the original topic of this thread, there are too many shady and/or incompetent solar developers at every scale from, rooftop systems to large desert developments, who are selling trash.

[Bengus81]

9. Yeah...agree that there are shysters and con artists in the rooftop solar biz mainly because it's new.

Just like there is in a lot of the same crooks in a hell of a lot of other industries and services. I have to laugh though about your statement about being "dangerously codependent" on renewable energy like wind and the sun.

[EastBayGuy]

10. What a bunch of BS and I

have worked at Diablo Canyon.

[hunter]

11. Please explain...

[geniph]

4. I have rooftop solar

I've been quite happy with mine. Even here in the gray Pacific Northwest (Washington state), I was generating enough power to match my consumption even in the winter months. Now that it's summer here, I've been exporting many MWh to the utility every month. I'm generating enough that it made sense to buy an electric vehicle, which I charge at home. I get netmetering credits from the utility, so not only is my monthly bill reduced to about $12 (the baseline charge to hook to the grid) from the previous, which ranged from $150 to upwards of $350 a month, the credits roll over so even when the generation is lower, I'm still not paying more than the base charge. Our roof was replaced the year before we did the solar, and we have good, unobstructed south-facing exposure for about 12 KWh of panels. I got a significant federal tax credit (since we're retired, that basically means we'll pay no federal taxes for several years). I was also able to roll a badly-needed full electrical service and panel upgrade into the job, so I got all that done with no sales tax (it's exempt here). For me, it's working out very well indeed. I spent a lot of time researching companies before I chose a local one, and I told a couple of the fly-by-night hard-sell national companies to take a hike. I have no complaints about mine. Yes, it's marked up a lot for the consumer, but what isn't?

[orthoclad]

12. I've had it on two homes so far, and it's well worth it.

Simple calculation: number of kWh produced against the utility cost of those kWh.
Plus, the price of sunshine never changes, whereas utilities are prone to inflation.
In one house, I replaced all fossil power with electric (heating, cooling, cooking, appliances, car charging), and when the utility balanced out the annual usage, I got a small check from them. VERY worth it.

In addition, the shading from the panels cools the house considerably and greatly reduces the load on AC.

Distributed power networks are far more robust than centralized power generation. This was proven in Puerto Rico with Hurricane Maria.

edit: of course shysters smell money and move in. After all, Musk bought Solar City. I used reputable firms with a good record.

[Ontheboundry]

2. I am off grid

However I did most of the work myself, out of need more than desire if I'm being honest

For my my costs are as follows

Panels (I got mine wholesale) were about 3300 dollars. This included most of the connections and cables required, but not the framing

Inverters. I have several as I have separate buildings and each has its own independent system

House system is a 7200 watt inverter, with four input ports at 1200 watts per port I also have 8 batteries also for this system. Total cost was about 10k for the entire system these are lifpo4 batteries, and have really long shelf lives (upwards 20 years). This gives me a solid 31k battery bank, and my house generally uses (it's a small cabin) about 10 to 14k a day (these are summer #). On a good day I can grab roughly 40k power from mr sun, which is when I begin flipping hybrid systems to electric with absolutely no sun I can last a few days, although I e never not got any electric as I have excellent panels

My aquaponics building l, and greenhouse has a 2k inverter and 8k battery bank that brings in roughly 1600 an hour on a good day. This is really my "oh crap" supply my building requirements are not very high at all, maybe on an average day about 2000watts this system.cost me about 2500

So all in I'm at about 17k, we can round up to 20k which is still far under the cost to run electric to my property

Water was completely cheap....lol. Less than 4000 dollars and I have a solid 5k storage facility and collect rainwater