Can I ask a question?

[DemonSpawn]

What's with all the Apple hate on DU?

[Sherman A1]

1. I believe

it is something well beyond DU. From what I have observed the Mac folks might at times have been a bit smug and brought some of it on themselves, but that's just my observation.

I also believe it comes from the production issues surrounding Foxcon in China and their treatment of workers and perhaps the slowness of Apple to address the issue.

That and some folks just like to hate in general.

I have & use Mac products, I enjoy them, I find them to do what I need for me. If others don't like, use or want them, that is up to them. All corporations have issues which need to be addressed (name a human institution that doesn't) and those should be. If folks want to vent on this board, it neither picks my pocket or breaks my leg.

[emulatorloo]

2. I worked with "Mac Haters" for several years in the 90's

It was not a logical thing with them, it was an obsession. They were on what to them was a life and death mission to eradicate Macs in our workplace. And in the world.

Why?

- PC's are the standard, every one must conform
- Macs are awful and underpowered and hard to use and troubleshoot
- people who use Macs are stupid and too dumb to use a real computer
- Mac users are mean to me ( lots of projection in that one)

And on and on. There.was no way to have a logical discussion with them. If you refuted their claims with research, they shifted the argument to some other bizarre untruth.

What you are seeing here at DU is partly those types who have latched on to FOXCONN as yet another way to feed their obsession with Apple.

As you know, there are many companies that use FOXCONN. It is pretty much impossible to buy a computing device that is FOXCONN free. It is a serious problem.

However, the Apple Obsessed turn every discussion about the issue of outsourcing to places like FOXCONN into a discussion of how evil Apple is and how dumb/mean Apple users are.

They cannot have an honest discussion about the problem, they effectively give Dell, HP, Microsoft,Samsung, Nokia and so on a free pass.

When I ask them why the focus is always on Apple and not on all manufacturers, there responses are fairly incoherent.

"HP doesn't have fans who post about their products on the Internet"
"Apple markets itself as Progressive" (funny all the ads I see are about innovation and ease of use)
"DU Apple users are mean to me" (more projection as far as I can tell)

When I ask them what FOXCONN products they own, they either fall silent or go into some other crazy explanation about how "that is different."

So that's it in a nutshell. Out in the real world, Some people are seriously fixated on Apple and Apple customers in this bizarre way. And some of those people are here at DU.

[Sherman A1]

4. I am sure you are correct in what you say

I simply don't really care what the opinions are of those that choose to hate happen to be.

I find the products to my liking (not all their business practices) and they are completely free to have or project any opinion they like. One cannot take what is said on an internet discussion board too seriously, most of it is simply one opinion or another.

If there are people that hate Apple, that really isn't my problem, it doesn't affect me or my usage of the product.

My response to the haters is simply "Thank You Very Much for your opinion, now go away."

If I don't engage them in "the argument", it kinda makes it hard for them to continue to continue to argue.

[emulatorloo]

5. I think you have a good attitude about it

[klook]

13. Excellent summary - My favorite is

"people who use Macs are stupid and too dumb to use a real computer."

As if going through the hideous pain of editing the Windows registry just to make basic functionality work correctly, constantly fighting to plug security holes and remove spyware & viruses, rolling back device drivers to a previous version because they're not compatible with the other drivers on your system, recovering from freeze after freeze and crash after crash, etc. etc. makes one a computer expert!

In the days when I owned a Windows machine and had to go through all that -- not to mention nightmares like manually setting dip switches on hard drives (thankfully a thing of the past for everybody!), interpreting obscure messages on blue screens, etc. -- I didn't consider myself superior to users of Macs or Unix machines. I cussed and banged on the desk and dreamed of the day when just using a computer wouldn't consist of periods of normal functionality punctuated by occasional episodes of deep frustration. Thank goodness that day has arrived.

But what I can't understand is getting so emotionally invested in your choice of machine or device. Do Craftsman lawnmower owners despise, ridicule, and secretly envy owners of Bosch mowers?

Hey, if somebody wants to use a Windows (or Android, or Linux, or Unix, etc.) device, more power to them! I use a Windows machine at work and consider some Microsoft products (especially Outlook) to be excellent. Just don't get all worked up about it and cast aspersions my way because I prefer to use different tools when I have the choice.

[Sherman A1]

19. Ah, lawnmowers!

I have a Snapper Lawnmower & I am deeply emotionally invested in it. It's a 1979 model & I have used it every year since I orginally purchased it that year. Looks like it's been rode hard & put away wet, but still keeps going & going & going.....

Had a Craftsman before it & it was terrible , I must accordingly look down my nose at those machines that do not measure up to mine!

[klook]

20. WTF, SNAPPER?!?!??11!1!

They don't even have a latte holder!

But perhaps when its day is done, you can donate your old hoss to a lawnmower museum.

[Sherman A1]

21. Back in the day, when I bought this unit

cars didn't have 37 cup holders for the driver, we barely had a radio and before that had to walk uphill to school 20 miles both ways in the 6 feet of snow even in July during a heat wave!

[klook]

22. You think YOU had it bad?!!/!1?1

First we had to mow all the snow, BAREFOOTED, in -18 degree weather, in July, and THEN we had to use a non-motorized PUSH lawnmower to pulverize the rocks, just so we could get to the grass!!

And by then the blades were dull, so we had to bite the grass off with our teeth. (We were the original Snappers!!)

Then, and only then, were we allowed to walk uphill 20 miles to school!11!1

[Sherman A1]

23. You got me beat there!

We got to use a pair of Captain Kangaroo Round Edge scissors to cut the grass after pulverizing the rocks! We had it easy!


I must now load the Snapper into the truck & take it in for it's annual checkup.

1979 model just a bit out of warranty!

The world needs more donuts!

[DemonSpawn]

3. It looks like Apple is doing something about

working conditions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002165463

[emulatorloo]

6. Yes, some pretty significant things

http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/

Worth poking around those pages if you get a chance.

Although that crowd will tell you it is "just PR."

I'm not aware of any other FOXCONN clients doing anything remotely like that.

[eyeofnewt]

7. mac bashers

I never understood those people. I worked in an office of people that were PC devotees. Any mention of the good aspects of Mac sent them off the deep end. In the meantime we sit and wait on fixes for our PCs, which takes half of IT staff weeks at times. I have had an iphone since 2007, with upgrades. They hold onto their droids. It's never about politics, social issues...it's like an irrational belief system....and let me say, they are all Republicans!! LOL

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. I suspect a touch of envy.

My iMac is simply a great machine. Together with my iPad, for the first time in my professional career, I am content to have the machines working for me, not forcing me to change or limit what I want to do.

[emulatorloo]

9. No, they think Apple users buy the products because we are mindless hipsters.

and idiots.

They don't understand the value of Apple's OS in making things easier to get done.

I am a multi platform type guy. The Apple user interface people really think very hard about usability and user experience. They know how to get the technology out of your way.

[got root]

10. It's not just DU, and it has almost religious contours

As a long time mac user, and software developer, I have seen this kind of love/hate attitude since I've been in the computer world.

I think some of it comes from the fact that computers are such an integral part of our daily lives, at both work and home, that we place more value on them than other purchases we make, and it becomes deeply emotional.

And with all that emotion, we get heated and visceral reactions.

I have to use all 3 main platforms for work, Linux.Windows.Mac and I prefer to use the Mac for personal and development, linux for running web servers/apps, and windows for testing.

I usually avoid the flame wars as I know it won't change any minds there, but occasionally I will remark on something I see as a common misperception.

Personally, I find a lot more attention to detail in the user experience on the mac side of things, wich means a lot to me being on computers all day. And the performance, longevity, and security, pretty much make it a no brainer for me, but as I said in the begging, I have lots of experience with computers, and so I have a different perspective than most.

anyways, thats my 2 cents.

[REP]

11. It used to be, "Oh, they're great - if you like toy computers" then "Are they still in business?"

Now, Apple is all that is evil. Apple hate has been in vogue since they started making computers.

[emulatorloo]

15. "Are they still in business?" I remember that one well.

I would always point to the amount of cash they had on hand. They could have operated for YEARS in the red if they had to.

That "nest egg" really got them thru the "beleagured apple" period and to the other side.

That is why I am finding the new rhetorical strategy amusing, where they complain that Apple is "sitting on cash" and that is why they focus their ire on Apple and give the other manufactures a free pass on using FOXCONN.

I really would like to see Apple set an example to the industry on this issue. But I don't have much use for those who pretend that Microsoft or Michael Dell etc don't need to set the same example. Or that pretend their own computing/cellphoning/tableting universe is FOXCONN free.

[LiberalLovinLug]

12. I'd like to see you try this question in the PC group.

Most of the reasons have already been posted.

I'm a Mac user from way back.
-First one a Mac II,
-840av, ($8000 with HUGE 16" monitor),
-then a terrible (for Apple), G3 Desktop from the Jobless era
-Quicksilver G4 tower (loved the design)
-Presently a MacBook Pro

Funny thing is that one of my best friends, who still is, introduced me to Macs. He had a Centris Mac and ran his BBS on it back in the 80's. So I finally got my first Mac II. Then he started playing around with PCs and abandoned Apple. While I was gaining respect for their products, he was losing it.

One reason is he was a bit of a geek and liked that you could build your own computer. I can respect the geek argument. If you really like taking computers apart, fixing them, piecing them together, customizing etc... sure, a PC is an endless canvas.
He now is a full on Apple hater. He despises what he calls "useless bells and whistles" on the Mac. (and new Windows OS following along) I try and explain that you don't have to use all the system options, and that those bells and whistles can sometimes help you speed up work during the course of a day, week, year....

Off the top of my head, lets just take the magnifying option for the Dock. To him this is a useless option that drains your OS. But I disagree. I have it set to a slight mag as I roll over. I think it saves a tiny bit of time and fatigue as your eyes find what you want faster, and you don't have to strain your eyes as much, don't have to make sure your cursor is directly over the icon, and can keep a half and eye on where you are going to next etc.. It may seem like not much of an advantage, but over the course of a year, how many minutes, and/or eye strain are we talking about here? I have tried to explain to him that those Bs and Ws that he thinks get in the way, actually help you work faster and more efficiently. But he has his PC blinders firmly installed now.

And that's just one tiny design difference. The fact that Apple has always gone out of their way to build with such attention to detail makes them produce machines that actually save you time. I have used a PC both in training, as well as working for an ISP company doing graphics, so I have worked both sides. There is no comparison. And we haven't even talked about the time-consuming aspect of perpetually fighting viruses, adware, and spyware.

I think there is still this view out there that PCs have won the computer wars, simply because there are so many more out there. Especially since that Jobless era when Apple was actually putting out those clone computers and Apple's demise was bragged about by every PC user every chance they got. Many are miffed that their prediction never came about.

[Merlot]

14. What is this "Apple hate" that you speak of?

My experience has been much different. I work in an industry where everyone uses macs. Always have. No one spends much time either rhapsodizing about their mac or hating on PC's.

I have noticed that the few people I meet who are mac haters are also of the republican persuasion. Steve Jobs original vision with the MacIntosh computer was to make it accessible to everyone. He wanted to level the playing field and have everyone feel like they could own and use a computer. Probably this is what sets off the repubs, you know how they hate it when things are made accessible to the general population. Like healthcare...

[Kablooie]

18. Success always spawns hate.

But there are legitimate concerns about the working conditions for the Chinese workers that produce Apples products.

It's not just Apple's problem, it affects all companies that have production in China, but Apple is the most visible and so they get the most attention.

It really should be the Chinese government's problem, they should create regulations but they don't seem very concerned about life quality for workers.