Community double standards

[Major Nikon]

On Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:28 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

This from the bitch who tried to ban books
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4496398

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

I just served on a jury for a post that dropped a B-bomb on a right-wing woman. It went down 6-0.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:40 PM, and the Jury voted 5-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I agree, the B-word is too much.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Calling a woman a "bitch" is always inappropriate.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

On Fri Feb 14, 2014, 05:56 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

you're cute when you're dickish.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4501493

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Calling another DUer a gender slur is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Feb 14, 2014, 06:01 PM, and voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Characterizing calling someone "dickish" as a gender slur is being ridiculously oversensitive. And I see barbs being traded both ways here and both parties seem to be holding their own just fine without mommy and daddy coming in and handing out spankings. Leave it alone.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Time to trash the whole thread

[Scuba]

1. Really? An alerter thinks "dickish" is as loaded a word as "bitch"?

Hell, I thought dickish meant acting like Nixon.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. Yes, after I suggested another poster seemed tense, I orchestrated a break in at the Watergate Hotel

I am not a crook.

[Major Nikon]

5. Obviously the community proved it wasn't as loaded

That was the point.

Calling a man "dickish" is pretty much the gender equivalent of calling a woman a word that rhymes with 4th and long regardless of how loaded either of those slurs are. So why isn't it as loaded? The simple answer is double standards. If you have an alternative answer other than hyperbole I'd be glad to hear it.

[opiate69]

2. Wish I could say I was surprised....

But we all know that would be a lie.
*sigh*

[Warren DeMontague]

3. She also called me "cute", so, maybe it sort of balances out.

FWIW, I wasn't personally particularly hung up on that post.

Which is not to validate or invalidate your larger thesis, of course. I think the questions around the "b" word, of course in this context it was used re: Sarah Palin as opposed to a direct personal insult on a DU member- have been beaten into the ground, starting with the 8 threads or so on the topic dated 2004. There's no point, for me at least, in riding that roller coaster around the track again.


Far more interesting IMHO, re: your OP and the post directed at me, is the post it was in response to, which I don't actually think was very "dickish" at all.

I guess I just don't grok this whole "microagressions" meme.

[Major Nikon]

6. I really wouldn't expect you to be all that hung up on that post

However, flip the gender roles and the gender slur and I'm pretty sure the peanut gallery would be all spun up about it. From a gender neutral standpoint either one of those reactions is the correct one, or it's somewhere in the middle.

I also agree that his isn't an even comparison as one is calling someone a gender slur that never participates in DU and never will, vs using one against a fellow DUer. If anything the latter should be far more egregious (assuming only one set of community standards).

[westerebus]

8. The alert ought to be on calling you "cute".

Were as in this case, I think Mae West's quote; " Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?" is one possibility that might be explored.

Men can never know all the rules. (That's rule number 2)

I am of course being satirical.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Hell, I'll take what I can get.

Gone are the days when the Ox fall down...

[westerebus]

10. I hear ya.

[Doctor_J]

7. what term SHOULD we use to describe Palin and the rest of her ilk?

I'd be happy to adopt something different, as long as it's descriptive

[Bonobo]

12. Well cunt-ish wouldn't be okay. I guess we have to stick with dick-ish. nt

[TreasonousBastard]

22. Yet another alert survivor...

proving once again that this bastion of progressive thought will not stop until it has broken the hopes and dreams of half the planet's population.

[opiate69]

27. and...... results...

On Sat Feb 15, 2014, 05:03 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Well cunt-ish wouldn't be okay. I guess we have to stick with dick-ish. nt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=12936

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Offensive use of vulgar, misogynist language. "Cuntish" = cunt = ish. What kind of person thinks that kind of thing is okay? This level of hatred for women and their bodies is pathological not fitting a civilized website. The Democratic Party includes women. This is way over the top.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Feb 15, 2014, 05:09 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: ...on-going debate over acceptable hate-terms, nothing to see, folks, keep moving...
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a comparison and complaint about the use of various sexist remarks, it is not an endorsement nor use of the word
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: But Dickish is OK? Whole thread is immature and childish. The whole thing should be wiped clean. But this one post being worse than the others? Nope.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "But he/she did it first" is no defense. Way over the top. The 'c' word, yet. shameful.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[Major Nikon]

30. Pretty much pegs the irony meter

I guess the silver lining is that at least the thread has a diverse audience, even if they aren't getting much out of it.

[Warren DeMontague]

23. I don't even think that's a word.

In other news, you may realize that my coming was prophesied in the Tao Te Ching as "The Inadvertent Hapless Father of 50,000 Threads" .... is that a dickish thing to say?

[hrmjustin]

25. Was that necessary to say that?

[TreasonousBastard]

21. Good question...

perhaps it would be best to use gender, racial, ethnically, etc. neutral terms for all people we despise.

Ain't gonna happen, though. I don't hear much racial or ethnic stuff any more in the circles I frequent, but I do hear male genitalia referenced quite frequently as a negative. Dick, prick, scumbag, ballbreaker... The list goes on, although cocksucker isn't seen so much as the bad thing it used to be.

So, now that women are reaching the pinnacles of power, just how do we allude to the worst of them? Gender neutral words like "idiot" fit some, but just don't have the immediacy that "nasty bitch" has for the meanest of them.

Or, maybe women are never nasty, mean, or stupid? And even if some may be, they should not be identified as women who are nasty, mean or stupid.

Nasty, mean, or stupid men, however, should always be identified as male, because, well, that's what we are.

[noamnety]

11. I think there's always going to be a double standard

when comparing slurs against a dominant group and one which has been historically oppressed by that dominant group.

So the N word is, no question, not allowed. But calling a white person a cracker, eh, not socially cool maybe, but it isn't tied to the same kind of widespread horrific crimes, like lynchings or slavery of white people just because they are white.

Or gay slurs, they're always going to be worse than calling someone a breeder, because one carries historical weight - the baggage of being beaten down as a second class citizen, literally and figuratively - while the other is just kinda rude.

[Major Nikon]

15. "historically oppressed" doesn't mean the same thing for the two groups you are conflating

If your grandmother was denied the right to vote, you are just as likely to be male as female.

[RiffRandell]

13. This was just left to leave 3-3.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4503127

[opiate69]

14. Disgusting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. I have a better one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4499996

The entire, complete contents of the message that LeftyMom typed into the text box consisted of the following two words. "Fuck" and "off".

Well, that's unambiguous, right? Every rational jury can see this as rude, disruptive etc., right?

Apparently not. 2-4 to leave it. Whisp opined that she'd have offered a congratulatory note as a juror because "context". Context? What context? The message was only two words!

[Major Nikon]

17. The perpetually outraged about sexism on DU have no issues with it when it goes the other direction

Very telling that.

Personally I don't think male directed sexism is all that bad on DU, but whatever there is of it is far worse than what is directed towards women despite claims to the contrary. Sexism is gender based discrimination, and the definition is the same regardless of which gender it's directed toward. When an environment of sexism is tolerated toward one gender, most people are going to inherently assume that it's also fine going the other direction. If people are genuinely concerned about sexism, then they should be against sexism, period. Gender parity can only exist when both genders are treated the same. When the finger wagging only goes one direction, one can only assume there is an agenda that goes beyond what they claim to be concerned about.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. Believe it or not, it was once much much worse.

But yeah being hypocritical and proud of it is something that doesn't earn much respect from me - not for them personally nor for their cause.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

19. That thread is laughable

No one has ever used gallows humor against a male. Never. Remember that folks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023635729#post1

[Doctor_J]

28. there is another post in that thread that includes the term

Last edited Sat Feb 15, 2014, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Little wimps. Is that sort of the converse of bitch?

[opiate69]

20. Check out what a little songbird told me...

On Sat Feb 15, 2014, 04:45 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Community double standards
http://www.democraticunderground.com/111412924

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is what goes on in DU's Men's Group. Men pretend that using adjectives like "dickish" is as bad as calling women "bitches".

Can we stop pretending like this site doesn't have a major problem? It's good that at least one instance of someone using a bigoted slur against an oppressed minority was hidden, but we all know that it's often left to stand.

But to have this kind of whining that it was hidden while "dickish" was not? This, folks, is the kind of MRA logic we see so many complaints about. It does not belong on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Feb 15, 2014, 04:59 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is fine. There is a double standard, at least with these two comments. As for what goes on in DU's Men's Group, it's a safe haven, where things are different at least that's what I've been told about safe havens. There is another group, call it the opposite of the Men's group where members have no problem calling out other DU members and talk about women like dogs...literally. When comments like when getting petted one likes to go lower..used as an insult to OTHER WOMEN are a ok then there really isn't room to caste stones.

Unless you're going through all the safe havens pointing out bad behavior, you have an agenda that I won't help further.

This post isn't against the rules. Clean up your own backyard before you complain about someone elses.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future

[Major Nikon]

31. "Men pretend that using adjectives like "dickish" is as bad as calling women "bitches". "

Actually I'm suggesting that it may be the other way around. If the first isn't that bad, perhaps the 2nd isn't either. The next best alternative is that both are completely wrong. Instead we have a 3rd option of the double standard the alerter both admitted and defended, which is counterproductive to gender parity.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I just want to be referred to as "Mr. Dickish"

I mean, there's no reason not to rest on formality.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. That's Doctor Dickish to you.

I didn't spend eight years at the University of Patriarchy to be referred to as "Mister".

[Doctor_J]

26. I also believe that women use that epithet on each other

even those who consider themselves enlightened.

[In_The_Wind]

32. It really seems to come down to who is called as a jury.

IMO: There is indeed a double standard.

[Major Nikon]

33. This is absolutely correct

I suspect that 8-9 out of 10 times these two situations are going to go the same way. I'm aware that sometimes the 'b-word' gets a pass (usually when it's not used as a slur), and there have been a few cases where male directed sexism has gotten hidden.

My point in bringing this up is not that I'm particularly concerned about any sexism on DU. My point is that those who defend and propagate double standards are not furthering the cause of gender equity and their efforts are counterproductive to their stated goals.

[In_The_Wind]

34. I totally agree with you.

My point is that those who defend and propagate double standards are not furthering the cause of gender equity and their efforts are counterproductive to their stated goals.

The above mentioned behavior seems to be causing a great deal of animosity.

Another example of the double standard is a post by a DUer 4 years ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=215&topic_id=137026&mesg_id=137026:

Why is SI so wrong this year when it was acceptable then?

[Doctor_J]

35. They are hypervigilant too.

Any perceived misstep (r. this thread) is talked to death, with basically no dissent. This is of course their right, and is what the groups are for, but it makes for a distorted view

[Bonobo]

36. I propose a new abbreviation: DYSTIG.

It stands for:

"Did you see this in GD!?!?!?!"

It will save some people a lot of time.

[In_The_Wind]

37. I second the proposal!