What would make this group "acceptable" to some people?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

I seem to notice whenever someone wants to talk about a proliferation of MRA talking points on DU, this group almost inevitably is referenced, either directly or tangentially, as being part of the problem. DUers who get hidden or banned for saying sexist and using horribly personal insults against other DUers are often accused of being "Men's Groupers" (even though if you do a little research you find some of them have never even posted a single post in here). I've seen some "Why do we even have a Men's Group?" as if the very existence is a pox on DU's brain trust for allowing it....and others who seem to have a clear idea of what they think it "should be", and have decided this is not it.

If every post was about, say, prostate cancer, or awareness of make breast cancer.....would that be okay? Or is that still too, "troublesome" and "unnecessary".

How about every thread being about your favorite razor or cologne? Or is that too shallow and again, "unnecessary"?

Should it be about the place of the liberal man in today's society? Where we stand as a collective? Or is that "exclusionary"?

The suicide rate among men is apparently not worthy of discussion, by the way, at least in the context talked about here.

I'm trying to figure out what we need to do for DU to be just ok with us?

[JVS]

1. Nothing can make this group acceptable to some people.

But I think this group would be much improved if the hosts banned people hostile to the existence of this group from posting here and making trouble. The presence of such posters interferes with the creation of a supportive environment.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

2. I think one of the things that's great here....

....is the hosts are willing to engage the openly hostile within reason. Granted, it usually takes about three posts for the hostility to boil over beyond acceptable levels....but it's always refreshing that it doesn't degenerate into a mob of zombies swarming the live victim in seconds pile on that it would devolve into elsewhere. The Men's Group is civil, and sadly, I think that's part of the problem for some of the hating outsiders. Their full frontal attacks aren't going to go anywhere.

[opiate69]

3. Agreed on all points

[Blue_Adept]

4. Considering how little activity this group gets

It's surprising the vitriol. I suspect many are just talking about Men's Group in a general sense and not this ne specifically, but others certainly are.

[HuskiesHowls]

5. I feel the small amount of activity is because of the vitriol.

I know that there are some things I would post about, and would like to see discussed, but I know that it would create a major problem with some groups here on DU. And what I find most bothersome is that I don't even consider them controversial, and could actually be a learning experience for those attacking, if they would actually participate, rather than attack.

Discussions of how we could help young boys grow up to be responsible, knowledgeable young men; what the proper response(s) to various situations we run into; how we as men deal with grief, and how better to deal with it; what we find most irritating in our lives. Some of these discussions would be greatly enriched by female input, and some would not, but attacks and (attempting to) shame us as "men" would add nothing.

And, unfortunately, I remember back in DU2 when this group was first started, the attacks on it started-probably on the very first day it was set up.

[Darkhawk32]

6. The vitriol is pervasive and verbally violent. n/t

[mokawanis]

7. I think a lot of people have decided this group is unacceptable

and they are entrenched in their opinions and judgment. I don't object to them criticizing the Men's Group, but I do object to some of the vile and nasty comments I've read from time to time. Criticism is fine, but contempt and open hostility aren't acceptable, imo. In answer to your question, I don't think anything could be done to make this group acceptable to a lot of people. Their minds are already made up. This group should just keep doing what it does, and I think the hosts do a good of job of regulating what goes on here. My 2 cents.

[nomorenomore08]

9. The posts accusing you guys of being an MRA-fest are nearly all unjustified IMO.

DU has a problem with sexism - and racism, and homophobia or at least hetero-normativity - but the Men's Group is hardly the locus of any of these issues.

[stevenleser]

15. ANY unjustified accusation that someone is a member of a hate group should be a bannable offense

Whether it is MRA, KKK, NeoNazi, Identity, etc.

Anyone accusing another DUer of being a member of a hate group without strong justification should be banned by admins.

I have no idea why people are being allowed to throw around an accusation like this without consequences. It's vile.

[nomorenomore08]

8. "Should it be about the place of the liberal man in today's society? Where we stand as a collective?

That doesn't sound like a bad starting point, honestly.

[Doctor_J]

10. I think this quote from the HoF is instructive

The issue is a matter of male sexual appetite. Which is more often than not excessive, aggressive...

And demeaning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1139&pid=10345

And, soon thereafter, by the same member

The reality is clear: Every group on DU is a men's group.

It will be difficult for this group to become acceptable as long as DUers think of us in those terms, and are willing to express such opinions so blatantly. Also I believe that the outrage over the SI pictures and the celebrity pic threads is probably NOT something we want to try to assuage.

I have been married for 3 decades to an ardent feminist, who also happens to be beautiful and extremely accomplished in her professional life. My grown-up daughters are happy, successful, and in great relationships with good, trustworthy men. What I am trying to say is I am comfortable in my skin with the life I've led, and don't spend much time worrying about being accepted. I say post what you want to - prostate cancer, comfortable shoes, raising offspring of EITHER gender, deciding not to have a family, pet peeves about your partners (for some reason Mrs. D_J won't pee in the shower). Let those who want to do so participate, ignore the rest, and, as far as the violent rhetoric from the others, don't feed the trolls. We may remain an under-used group, but c'est la vie.

[kjones]

11. I agree

If people want to find somewhere and talk about anything that could be related to
men's interests, I'm sure they'll find their way here. Any one who is very opposed to
this group isn't likely to have their mind changed, especially through any kind of
diplomacy (war or peace). To the point those individuals have lead this group to
focus on them, they've "won." Or rather, once you can look back at the threads in
the men's group and see that too many (one is too many) reference ongoing trollage
and rhetoric, men's group loses (loses out on what it should be doing, discussing men's
issues). Go to the issues and let everything else fall as it does. The ongoing "contest",
I guess you could call it, just feels like it makes everyone involved look bad, whether they
are or not.

[nomorenomore08]

12. That poster is actually a guy. And I don't always agree with him but he seems quite intelligent

and not generally full of shit.

Otherwise, I basically agree with your points. No point trying to please everybody all the time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. I think it's imperative that this group is fulfilling to its participants. Bystanders? Fuck 'em.

The group will always be unacceptable to some people, because there is a simplistic view of women's advocacy that sees actual bias against men to the be the correct reaction to perceived bias against women.

To "some people" the only acceptable function for liberal guys is as a feminism auxiliary. We are supposed to have no interests, desires, goals, aspirations or values in our own right, nor are we supposed to advocate for ourselves, because that would constitute whining about issues for which we should man up.

Oh, and by the way, while we're manning-up and suppressing our whining, we should stop using gendered language and reject rigid gender roles.

Seriously. Stop worrying about what they think. They are bigots and hypocrites. One of the virtues inherent in the male ideal is the predisposition to choose to either suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or take up arms against the sea of troubles.

Either is a perfectly valid choice, but the middle road whereupon we wring our hands, gnash our teeth and rend our garments about what we could possibly have done to earn such disapproval...?

I find myself uninterested in that path.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

17. And all thread headers of this ongoing series should start with....

"Why You Suck, and What You CAN'T Do About It!"

[name not needed]

18. We have determined that Itchy & Scratchy does not meet DU community standards.

Please replace it with something more appropriate.

[opiate69]

20. Who doesn't appreciate a nice outreach program?

[GOLGO 13]

19. Acceptable to men?

I got no issues talking about the Yankees batting ave age going into this season. Or the never ending & unfulfilled plight of Scratchy in Itchy & Scratchy cartoons.

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