Men's Group
Related: About this forumEvolutionary Psychology and anti-intellectualism.
I've noticed from time to time, the utter disdain some of our radfem friends have for the field of Evolutionary Psychology. Now, being a huge fan of Anthropology as well as Psychology as academic pursuits, I always thought the concepts were pretty sound. Upon doing further research, I discovered that while the field can trace it roots back to Darwin, there is a more modern movement afoot. At the risk of falling into an appeal to authority fallacy black hole, I further discovered that the two people considered as the "founders" of the modern EvoPsych field are a married couple, Leda Cosmides and John Tooby, who have their Harvard PhDs in Cognitive Psychology and Biological Anthropology, respectively. Not exactly what I, or any other serious person, would consider "woo." So, where exactly does this anti-intellectual hatred for the field come from? Now, admittedly, I probably did study some of this material back when I thought it would be neat to get a degree in Clinical Psychology, but didn't realize there was a separate field apart from Anthropology, but I'm not 100% up to speed on everything about the field. Does seem to have some damned fine credentials behind it though (Twisty's derision notwithstanding lol)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)human behavior.
Such dangerous talk completely negates everything we learned in sunday school everything we were taught at Smith College about how Satan tempted Adam and Eve into original sin Patriarchy corrupted and destroyed the natural pre-Patriarchal pristine state of humanity and furthermore it reinforces dangerous ideas about how we are, after all, animals we are, after all, animals.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)Yet another area where the radical, fringe feminist left lays a big old wet, sloppy kiss on the radical, fringe, religious right.
the anti porn radfems and fundies have been in bed together since at least Dworkin's testimony before the Meese Commission. I see where we've been accused of taking Dworkin "out of context"...well, if one believes in personal freedom, I don't know how you can present Dworkin's alliance with Ed Meese as anything other than in a negative light...
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)- I mean up there with the "I'm not saying it was aliens, but it was aliens" guy and the playing-with-their-own-poop fundy numbskulls who blame bad weather on teh geyz. If this woo were true something truly remarkable would have happened - human beings, good old homo sapiens, the species who is wise, would be the one and only higher animal on the planet with no hardwired instincts and predispositions. Dogs bury bones, cats cover their poop, chimps climb trees, grazing animals band together in herds, but nope, one animal in the history of the evolution of life has no hardwired instincts - humans. The likelihood of this being true is on the Santa Claus/transubstantiation level of sheer ridiculousness and impossibility.
That this "concept" is absolutely barking-at-the-moon, batshit fking insane is so readily apparent to anyone who knows anything about natural selection that it barely merits refutation.
Science is bad because it might discover evil things, especially things that disagree with our already set-in-stone ideas of what the world is. For christ's sake don't confuse the issue with hard scientifically-tested, rigorously evaluated evidence!
Exactly the same types of fact-free rationalizations are heard from the young-earth creationist dimbulbs. The one core fact about science and the scientific method is that anything learned by its application is subject to revision in the light of more advanced knowledge. Otherwise it ain't science.
The postulations of evolutionary psych will either be found plausible and valid through the application of the scientific method or they won't. My money is that a surprising amount of the hypotheses will wind up scientifically valid.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)The one core fact about science and the scientific method is that anything learned by its application is subject to revision in the light of more advanced knowledge. Otherwise it ain't science.
And yet some theories, like those about the patriarchy, revolve around an immutable conclusion and bending facts to agree with that conclusion.
Are you saying that's not real science?
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)chock up another gender essentialist post.
There's "damn fine credentials" behind climate denialism, too. Just because some jackass got a PhD doesn't mean his research isn't full of specious arguments and cherry picked data. Doesn't surprise me this group will grasp at straws to justify their obsession with alleged behavioral differences between peepee and hoohoos.
You guys DO know there are more than 2 biological sexes, right? You could have a different chromosomal configuration and not even know it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And I'm supposed to be the one with the "volatile room temperature IQ"???
Hey, too bad you can't edit that thing, huh.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)caseymoz
(5,763 posts)I can't even tell who it's supposed to be answering. For someone adept at spotting specious arguments and cherry-picked data, maybe it's time to concentrate on coherency and clarity. Or maybe try to to say which argument is specious and how, or which data is cherry-picked? You've apparently gone through the entire academic field quite carefully.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)When it fails to back their beliefs. Find Ann old boat and call it the ark or decide that ancient humans were matriarchal based on some random conjecture and you're back to being respectable scientists.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)caseymoz
(5,763 posts). . . because of its implication of gender determinism, or determinism, period. However, I haven't had one radfem or feminist helpful enough to verify if that's the case.
I tried to say that sociobiology implies no such thing. That a biologist doesn't see genetics as determining outcomes at all, if anything, they see genes providing possibilities.
Though I have to admit, they may be suspicious as male scientists tell them certain facts, theories and hypotheses. They may think the data has been cooked to undercut feminism. In presuming the data is corrupt, they then throw it out and make their own guess. And wouldn't you know, they base their guesses on social science, a category of academia known for it's reliable data and unbiased researchers, all of whom in no way want to prove their own theories and launch social movements based on them.
Until you actually get more female scientists into the sociobiology or psycho-biology fields, you're not going to settle this. Not when distrust is running so high.
Mosby
(17,471 posts)Furthermore cultural antho is also mostly bullshit.
I would explain but I don't see the point for this group.
Nothing personal.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Mosby
(17,471 posts)Look, I don't want to insult anyone but if you don't have a good understanding of social science and inferential stats/research methods you're not going to understand the problems with evo psych. Regardless I posted some links below.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/27/why-wont-evo-psych-nonsense-go-away-already/
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/addiction-in-society/201012/is-evolutionary-psychology-total-utter-and-dangerous-bullshit?page=2
http://physioprof.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/evolutionary-psychology-is-a-load-of-fucking-shit/
http://lesswrong.com/lw/1ss/babies_and_bunnies_a_caution_about_evopsych/
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2011/09/27/hardwire-turning-psych-upside-down
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Cursory look at the first link reveals it was written by the "author" who called the people who defended the falsely accused Duke rape suspects "rape-loving scum." Not exactly someone who seems to have a firm grasp on facts or reality. And really, since when is ab English Lit major an expert on human behavior??
Will look at those other links later.
Edit: Ok.. so, then we have a wiki page which only really says that there is some criticism of the field, and that it may or may not be valid criticism. Not anything any professor worth his tenure would accept as a source.
Then, thete`s a psychologist whose big claim to fame is criticizing 12 step programs and conventional thought on alcoholism.. lo and behold, his biggest funding sources are liquor lobbying organizations.
And then, a bunch of random rad-fem blogs, most of which just refer right back to Amanda "rape-loving scum" Durcotte.
Academics: You`re doing it wrong.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I don't buy into the "12 steps as the only way" thing, either, but I will say that for people who have the physiological situation or relationship to alcohol that characterizes serious or chronic alcoholism, they can't fuck around with alcohol, period, at all. Trying to "teach Moderation" to people with that condition is a cruel joke.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I read a few of the links, a couple of which looked like Meta-threads, and wound up eventually looping back to a quote from the founders of the discipline:
As Leda Cosmides and John Tooby write: "...in the rush to apply evolutionary insights to a science of human behavior, many researchers have made a conceptual 'wrong turn', leaving a gap in the evolutionary approach that has limited its effectiveness. This wrong turn has consisted of attempting to apply evolutionary theory directly to the level of manifest behavior, rather than using it as a heuristic guide for the discovery of innate psychological mechanisms." In other words, there may be an evolutionary basis for certain meta-aspects of human psychology rather than a direct link to individual behaviors. Which sounds entirely logical and possible, but time will tell.
Which amounts to saying that would-be popularizers are jumping the gun. So let's leave this to the actual scientists and see if the experimental and predictive methodologies develop and improve. It will either proved valid to some greater or lesser degree or it will turn out to be a dead end. To squawk at the outset that "there are questions that shouldn't be asked" is the same kind of bullshit spouted by the young earth creationists and other anti-science crackpots.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I would explain but I don't see the point for this group.
If so, you're not as smart as you think.
Nothing personal, of course.
I respect those who come here to argue their point. I don't respect those who feel the need to pinch a turd on the doorstep and airily decline to even explain why.
And when the first link is authored by a blogger who's too offensive for the Edwards campaign...
Mosby
(17,471 posts)My work computer is fucked up right now so I tried to find some relevant links via my phone browser but maybe I didn't.
I posted a reply in a mens group post recently about boys underperforming in language skills/reading and I was ridiculed. The experiment I posted was extremely well done though it has not yet been replicated. Anyone who understands research should find it significant. Due the response I received I lowered my expectations regarding this group.
Any social science endeavor must be based on experimentation, evo psych is limited to self report data.
In addition to severe DV limitations there is the problem of construct validity, and imo this issue can't be overcome, at least right now.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)That doesn't mean they are invalid. It just means that as yet nobody has been able to prove them objectively so they should be taken with a grain of salt.
There are people on both sides of the debate whose knowledge and experience on this subject far exceeds my own and I dare say anyone who cares to participate in this group. As such I don't see the point of trying to ridicule anyone who has made a decision either way. There are good arguments on both sides.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Part of any real experiment is a control group right?
Ok, where's the control earth for climate change models?
/do you believe humans, alone among all thinking animals, have no behavioral traits influenced by genetics? Are we entirely blank slates when born? For instance, we have no natural fear of falling (we don't live in trees any more) or loud noises, or any of that stuff?
Mosby
(17,471 posts)Most economic "theory" for example, is hard to test because you can't manipulate anything. That does not mean the ideas stemming from economics have no value at all but its very limited, ultimately economists make educated guesses. If you think about it economic theory should be part of social psych but is isn't because its nearly impossible to apply the scientific method.
The biggest issue in climate research is rate of change and there is a great deal of variability in rates for exactly the reason that it can't be tested. The best they can do is make simple comparisons of rates of greenhouse gas levels through the millenia and extrapolate from that.
Standard evolutionary theory is also nearly impossibe to test using experimentation. A lot of key ideas like natural selection cannot be proven, but ideas like Directed Mutation can be tested and, not surprisingly, is completely changing the way scientists think about standard evo theory.
Evopsych is very limited in that they can develop questionaires and that's about it. In the research biz self report data (from questionaires) is considered about the weakest DV data one can obtain. There is also the problem of what is exactly being tested (construct validity) imo this is a huge problem that cannot be overcome.
There is no question that humans have instinctive behaviors but there is a huge jump from that to saying for example that men are naturally polygamous. Maybe they are but it can't be proved or disproved using current research techniques.
Experimentation today often does not use the "control group" type of effects testing. The big thing today is Structural Equation Modeling, which does not use control groups.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)is all about.
It isn't simply "a bunch of questionares".
For instance: you can observe prostitution among chimps and other primates.
You can also observe it historically among many human societies from records.
This would suggest there is something biological to this process, rather than it being an unnatural construct of the patriarchy.
There is no question that humans have instinctive behaviors but there is a huge jump from that to saying for example that men are naturally polygamous. Maybe they are but it can't be proved or disproved using current research techniques.
Behaviors that appear pretty much uniformly across cultures that have never previously had contact would suggest that there is a biological basis to that behavior. Yes?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The question is whether evo psych is a better predictor of human behavior across societies than the alternatives. As a parent of a child with autism, I am confident that nurture takes a distant back seat to nature in our basic cognitive perceptions and reactions to stimulus.
We can consciously change our reactions to that stimuli only to a degree.
With enough behavioral intervention, it may be possible to get juvenile male primates to play with dolls instead of trucks, but that doesn't change their inherent preference.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I am dx'd on the spectrum (Asperger's) and brain wiring is what it is. To argue that somehow humans are the only higher animal born without some sort of meta-programming defies common sense, as I discussed on this thread.
Mosby
(17,471 posts)The nature vs nurture dichotomy is more complicated then it used to be, for example schizophrenia is known to have genetic and environmental aspects, it develops from interactions between a persons genetics and the environment. So there are significant non genetic causes of schizophrenia, just like a lot of other hard to define illnesses and disorders.
Autism probably has a major environmental component, its only partly due to genetics. The results of the human genome project shows that genetics are linked to the environment, there is simply no way to separate the two.
There is a lot of interesting research coming out about gut microbes, seems that they communicate directly with our brains and might have a large role in our overall mood. Again this is an environmental effect, nothing to do with genetics since we are born with a sterile gut.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Environmental science can't predict what the weather will be in Nashville on Thanksgiving day. So too, EvoPsych can't predict my individual behavior.
Claims to the contrary would in fact be "bullshit".
Environmental science can predict that the average temperature of the next few Nashville thanksgivings will be higher than the last few, and EvoPsych can predict that most boys born next year (across all cultures... in fact among all hominids) will prefer balls and trucks, and only a small part if any of that preference will be due to parental influence.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)not psychology.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Evidence: look at what these socials scientists and bloggers have to say!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Wow. Who knew the Vatican, for instance, was such a hotbed of "Evo Psych"?