So apparently we need to take classes on empathy now

[unreadierLizard]

according to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021917325#post10

I dunno about the rest of you but I've never once felt having testosterone makes me any more sadistic and selfish. Hell, I've been accused of caring too much of other people and not enough of myself.

This place literally does not feel welcoming to male DU'ers when topics like rape and abortion come to the spotlight.

[Scuba]

1. Only some of us.

[unreadierLizard]

2. Huh? n/t

[Upton]

3. Just forget about it..

lot of folks with agendas and using the current hot topic to further them. Take a couple steps back...watch some football.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. Why are the subjects of rape and abortion unwelcoming?

Please explain.

[Bonobo]

6. I find your online behavior to be generally cowardly.

You cherry pick, you strawman and, ultimately, you run away when you are called on your mistakes.

...Then you attack from behind a corner.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. I'm sorry that you have grown a new misogynist in the men's group. Nt.

Actually two new misogynists. You all must be very proud.

[Bonobo]

8. Link please.

I do not know to what or whom you are referring.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. None so blind as those wont see.

Oh by the way, when a thread has gone to full out ludicrous, I'm fine with y'all having the last word.

[Bonobo]

10. Yeah, you've used that one before.

I will add petulant and boring to cowardly.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. Keep up the personal insults. It's very manly.

[Bonobo]

12. You have many odd ideas about what manly means.

I am just being honest about how I perceive you.

[Major Nikon]

22. ...and most of them appear to be sexist

Quite telling that.

[Major Nikon]

21. So is sexism, apparently

Just sayin'

[Major Nikon]

20. Does this mean we can flip this one with Iverglas as the obvious example?

Not sure you really want to go there, but we can if you like.

Just sayin'

[Warren DeMontague]

13. rape is wrong and abortion should be the decision of the pregnant woman.

Next question?

[Warren Stupidity]

15. So far the person I replied to has nothing else to say.

On the other hand bonobo says I'm an asshole for asking about that bizarre post, and you are playing the role of captain obvious.

Here is what I think: I am perhaps the only even marginally regular poster here who will challenge even the most obvious misogyny posted here. The rest of you just let it slide. That is shameful.

[Upton]

17. Does this mean you're going to be teaching empathy classes?

If so, I'm pretty sure your first lesson will consist of labeling everyone who doesn't agree with you a misogynist..

[Warren Stupidity]

18. exactly

Thanks for shedding some light on just how self distancing the participants of this group are from DU's mainstream.

[Upton]

26. I see you spend the majority of your time in the guns group.

Seems you're over there tying to dictate to them how to behave too..questions of loyalty don't you know?

It would appear you fancy yourself as some kind of arbiter, judging your fellow Duers and their groups. Makes me wonder, have any other groups and their contributors come under that inquisitive skeptical eye of yours? How about Sports? Cooking and Baking? Because you never know, there's one under every bed..must stay vigilant, which I can see is your strong suit..

Anyway, good luck with your little crusade..

[Bonobo]

29. You have identified what is probably his central defining characteristic.

Call him a crusader, a correcter, an arbiter or an authoritarian.

It is clearly serving an important purpose for him and how he chooses to define himself to himself.

In that sense, we are merely tools to be used by him in his quest to bring meaning and focus and definition to himself.

In short, it is a way to tell himself a story about himself. It is filling a need.

Maybe the story is that he is a better man than others, that he is more complete or evolved, but rest assured this quest here and there on DU to "correct" people is an issue that has to do more with his own issues than the issues themselves.

ON EDIT: I also note that he does not originate any OPs there. That falls under another pattern I have noticed in the last 10 years I have been here. I call it the sniper. It is a defensive position in which you lurk in the shadows and then SNIPE when you spot a weakness that think you can rhetorically exploit. Such posters rarely have the courage to start an OP because it would expose them too much to the kind of sniping they themselves engage in.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. Pancho! Bring Don Quixote his armor!

Away Rocinante! There are windmills throughout the land, threatening all that we hold dear! En garde!

[Warren DeMontague]

19. What did I *not* say, now?

Will you please make a list of all the offenses I have committed by not responding sufficiently in the time and manner you apparently expect, so we're clear?

[Bonobo]

23. We are all collectively guilty for not answering everything here in this forum. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I get that alot. Along with the "I'm putting the words I wish you would say, in your mouth" move.

Usually those sentences start with "So...."

[unreadierLizard]

27. I was at college; you know,

trying to get an education.

Rape and abortion are women's issues. I'm pro choice and anti rape. I think every person on this world who isn't a total fucking sadist would be against rape.

And how am I being misogynist when I get angry at people suggesting all men need "Classes in empathy"?

[Bonobo]

32. Correction. That is not why I think you're an asshole.

I came to that conclusion well before that.

[Gore1FL]

25. Because the topics are posed as Kobayashi Maru scenarios and not discussions.

You can agree with some people 100% of the way, and they still find a way to be vitriolic and obnoxious. It's not about discussion. It' not about solutions. It's about finger pointing, blame, and general condescension.


That's the "historical" perspective I can give you.

[HuskiesHowls]

5. Its not just rape and abortion

I don't feel that I can express my views, or even ask questions or comments about ANY subject dealing with masculinity!!

[Major Nikon]

41. I'm convinced there are those on DU who will use whatever means at their disposal to crush dissent

This includes nefarious uses of the jury system, sock puppetry, and the endless public airing of grievances over the same issues which will never be resolved to their satisfaction.

Ironically the word sexism doesn't even appear in the TOS, yet there are places where it alludes to giving people the benefit of the doubt. There are those who pretend the first is explicitly included and completely ignore the second which actually is.

Another thing I've noticed is you have people who will complain incessantly about how DU has become a cesspool of misogyny which is a word they use interchangeably with sexism even though those two things have different meanings. When you point out to them if they really were concerned about sexism, a great place to start would be with all the sexsim directed at men which is far more prevelant, accepted, and ergregious. The inevitable answer is they want you to stomp out that campfire, even though you weren't the one worried about the forest fire. I don't think they realize most people understand the ideas behind "when in Rome..." and goose/gander far better than any sort of patriarchy conspiracy theories most have never heard about. So the culture becomes one in which sexism is accepted and even encouraged and they don't seem to understand why little has changed since DU's inception other than the complaining has gotten worse.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. You are correct the word "sexism" is not in the TOS.

I will assume you know the definition of the word. So, whereas the word itself does not appear in the TOS, it's definition does!

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic.

Bigotry based upon someone's gender is sexism! Is it really necessary for the word to be there? Would you excuse racist remarks because the word racism is not "explicitly included" in the TOS?

I also don't like the posters who interchange sexism and misogyny, just as I don't like the ones who overlook sexism directed at men, which is also not "explicitly included" in the TOS. There are a number of people who don't fucking get it at all; sadly, they are the ones shouting so loud, everyone else is getting drowned out.

[Major Nikon]

43. I can't get there from here

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just can't agree.

Sexism, bigotry, and misogyny (or misandry) are three different things with generally three different meanings. I say generally because while you can use those three words interchangeably in some situations, you can't use them interchangeably in all situations.

The most common uses of those three words go something like this...

Sexism is discrimination based on gender. It refers to action and has less to do with thoughts or feelings. People can say or do sexist things without even knowing it.

Bigotry is intolerance of a group, in this case the group is gender. It has to do with the state of mind and how you think and/or how you apply those thoughts.

Misogyny is the hatred of women.

Sexism is fairly easy to prove because it relates to action. If someone calls Palin a word that rhymes with 4th and long, or describes the function of Limbaugh's sex organs, that is sexism. I don't have to dive into what they are thinking or what their intent was to prove this. If you utter a sexist slur, you are employing sexism. It's that simple.

Bigotry relates to thought and/or the application of that thought. If someone claimed women are prone to hysteria, or men lack empathy, that's probably bigotry unless their intent was something else, then we are back to sexism. It's also sexism regardless because it's hard to imagine the effect wasn't discriminatory. Bigotry generally applies to the entire gender because it has to do with intolerance of an entire gender.

Misogyny is bigotry taken to the extreme. It's hard to imagine a misogynist who wasn't also a bigot just as it's hard to imagine a misogynist who doesn't employ sexism.

Here's the #1 definitions from Webster's site. You can decide for yourself.

Definition of SEXISM
1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
...

Definition of BIGOTRY
1: the state of mind of a bigot
...

Definition of MISOGYNY
: a hatred of women

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Abortion is the business of the pregnant woman. End of story.

I'm a male DUer and I've never felt "not welcomed" on the topic of abortion. Of course, I'm unequivocally pro-choice.

I'm also unequivocally against rape, so there's that.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. The problem with much of the "rape culture" rhetoric is because we are unequivocally against rape.

Being told that I'm responsible for such heinous crimes by other people?

Frankly, I think that any man who isn't offended by being grouped in this way is suspect.

Further, it's the kind of rhetoric which doesn't bring allies to the cause, it alienates them.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

37. But we are told "IF YOU DON'T RAPE....WHY SO MADZ???"

It's fucking sickening.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. I still haven't seen a broad sociological 'rape culture' explanation that accounts for

the statistical decline of rape rates as per the DOJ, over the past 30 years and particularly since the peak in '92.

Since it seems to be taken as axiomatic that whatever the 'rape culture' is, it's getting worse ("the culture is a sewer", etc) and is at heretofore unprecedented levels at this instant in time.

So the explanation seems to be that the FBI/DOJ/Law Enforcement are not only deliberately lying about the numbers, but fudging them in an ever-increasing fashion to account for the statistical decline which is, apparently, in actuality an increase.

I have asked for sourcing on this assertion- seems to me, if proven true, it would be a HUGE story- but have not seen any beyond "it is because it obviously is and the mere suggestion that it isn't is yet another unacceptable outrage".

But the board is obviously at the point where even the most outlandish assertion about the existence, or even the causes and impact, of the "rape culture" cannot be questioned, at all, without the person asking the question being somehow labeled as a rape apologist.

So, there's no point.

Yes, of course there's a rape culture and it's obviously getting worse, statistics shmastistics. Right?

[Major Nikon]

16. This is classic sexism

Imagine if you suggested that women need education to control their hysteria. When you spin things like this around and realize it would be incredibly sexist to say it, then you realize it's kinda sad they need to be spun in the first place.

[loli phabay]

28. i saw that bullshit too. wtf ive no idea what world some people live in

I just spent a harrowing day yesterday and every single guy on scene showed plenty of empathy and compassion. I honestly thinknthat some people just dont realise that we are all individuals and not monolithic. Then you get some people who feel they must show themselves to be the only one aware of their problems as a man as if it marks them out as someone special and attuned tonthe universe.

[Bonobo]

30. Each time you hear a poster talk about "them over in the Men's Group"...

you know that they are viewing each individual as part of a monolithic strawman entity that they have constructed in order to rail against, in order to define themselves against.

The reality matters not one bit in the face of such an urgent agenda of self-discovery.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Right. Let me try to sort it out in a linear fashion, for everyone.

...

DU had a long-time poster who, to my knowledge, never once showed his face in here, banned for using the "C" word about a month ago. Stated admin reason- Misogyny.

DU then had a poster who was well-known for posting off kilter, TMI, creepy stuff in the lounge, and who then made totally uncalled for sexual comments to a DU member, banned after repeated warnings... another long-time poster who, as far as I know, never once posted in this group. Stated admin reason? - Misogyny.

DU had another poster banned concurrently with the one above, a poster who DID post in this group. And, a poster who had received numerous alerts and hides on his transparency page pertaining to his activities in several different forums on this site aside from this one, including in particular the RKBA group, which quite probably had more than a little bit to do with his banning. Stated admin reason? - Troll.

DU had the topic of rape brought to GD, maybe 6 days ago? I leave it to crafty forensic internet investigators to determine who, exactly, on this board was responsible for putting up the ORIGINAL threads on the topic. As in, given the shit storm... has anyone stopped to wonder how it even came to be so-called "rape week" on DU in the first place?



Again, I leave it to the investigative wiles of anyone so inclined to figure that out. One thing I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty, it was not a member of the Men's Group who originally brought up the topic of rape, for better or worse, in GD.

Once the rape threads started sprouting in GD, there were several deeply offensive threads which came in fairly rapid succession. One by a poster admitting previous rapes- a criminal confession, really, with all that entails. Another by a poster who used extra-creepy language to explicate on his feelings about.. I don't know what, but it had something to do with rape. And it was an offensive OP. The last thread seemed to be portrayed as a 'question' about something claimed to be relevant to the topic, that, again, much of DU found inappropriate and very offensive particularly given the soul-baring and wrenching expressions of upset rape victims had been expressing in GD. All these threads were inappropriate, and all these threads had something else in common: Again, the people responsible, as far as I understand it, have never had anything to do with this group.


So.

...What is the obvious take-away from all this?

"Those Misogynists in the Men's Group are responsible for what's happening on DU".

[unreadierLizard]

33. I read that rape admission thread

that was disgusting and I'd have reported that guy to the police if I knew where he lived.

All those bans were rightfully given, in my opinion. I'll never be caught promoting sexism, defending rape or violence against women. I was raised by women for 11 years of my life exclusively - to even accuse me of misogyny is insulting.

I just want to be able to come to a liberal progressive board - of which I share most of the same political positions - and have conversations with fellow progressives. Not be tarred and feathered every time the topic of rape is brought up.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

36. Most of it is Meta group bullshit

The self appointed guardians of the grail who spend all their DU time over there complaining about this or that jury result or demanding Skinner weigh in on everything have a few people who have it out for us. Obviously, their interesting "political views" play into that, but still....

Meanwhile, I witness a number of statements that display a stunning lack of empathy all the time in other groups from people who claim to be fully draped in the shroud of human understanding.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Although, no one on this planet would be harmed by trying to be more empathic tomorrow

than we were today.


And very few- VERY few people can reasonably argue that they're close to the maximum on that trait. Maybe the Dalai Lama, although shit knows that dude has his detractors, too. As does just about everyone.

As has been noted in this thread and elsewhere on DU, there aren't "sides" on this topic; we're all against rape. Anyone who ISN'T against rape, get the fuck out now. I mean it.

I want to say something because I do feel the need to get it off my chest, and this thread is as good a place as any. I have read the threads, and I have listened- really listened to what has been said. I know there are some here who seem to be painting with some awfully broad brushes. But there are also people who are hurting- genuinely hurting over this. One thing that I have become increasingly aware of, and certainly the threads on the topic have been eye opening, is that there are many victims of rape on DU. That we talk with every day. That have been brave enough to come forward and talk about what they've been through. That calls for- it demands- empathy from all of us.

I understand about not liking the broad brush or over the top generalizations in some of the threads; that said, there is a place for remembering that this topic does deserve empathy from all of us. As men, and as human beings.