Men's Group
Related: About this forumIt's really only violence if it is man vs. woman.
Where are the women's "ANTI-VIOLENCE" groups, or the left wing "anti-violence police" on this Gabriel Aubry story? When Chris Brown beats the snot outta Rihanna, it's the end of the world. When Gabriel Aubry gets his ass kicked, black eye and all (lol), nothing is said from that camp.
Does that mean that it only matters if it is man vs. woman violence?
Is that because men deserve what happens to them because it is men doing the violence?
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Not every war in the world is mentioned on DU, but that doesn't mean we are cool with those wars.
edit: spelling errorrr
Behind the Aegis
(54,854 posts)If one only focuses on ketchup, it doesn't mean s/he doesn't like mustard and mayonaise, but it doesn't mean s/he does either.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It is not just DU. It is the whole society. It treats male victims of violence as less worthy of sympathy. There is little doubt. The question is why.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)we still hold to that ancient concept that "real men" can't be beat up by mere women.
Nobody says it out loud, but it's lurking there in the background.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)As has been said here, they are "worth less" in many ways in the eyes of society. This can be amply demonstrated.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)I never heard of them either and had to go to the link to find out what I am supposed to feel ashamed I have not posted an OP decrying. There appears to have been a fight between two people, one the fiance of an actress and the other the father of the actress's children. The police are still investigating. It's not clear who started the fight.
Ok, I'm officially outraged. This is terrible! Violence is never ok.
How'd I do?
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)and it is unacceptable no matter the sex of the victim or the perpatrator. i try to make that point anytime someone something on facebook about violence against women, and will continue to make that point.
i would bet that many male victims of domestic violence do not report the incidents, much like male sexual assault victims. the stereotype and societal assumption that men a seldom, if not never, the victim is another grave disservice we do to boys and men. men deserve the right to not be hit, just like women, just like children.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It is a weak evasion to simply say that it is due to the "patriarchy" because if offers no solution and seems to diminish the damage to boys. A random boy victim in school is not part of some overarching patriarchal power structure any more than an abused wife.
If women's right activists want to be consistent and actually work for a world with more equality, they will recognize that the violence perpetrated against men and boys -no matter who does it - is massively important and deserves attention.
In a related issue, why is it that when women talk of fear at the hands of men, it is accepted sympathetically, but when a man says that he too has experienced great fear of violence, it is ignored, scoffed at or diminished?
yardwork
(64,373 posts)1. Patriarchy is one of the sources of violence in our society. I don't see how that is an evasion. Many of us are trying to do something about patriarchy. Reducing its influence would reduce violence.
2. "A random boy in school" can be just as much a victim of patriarchy as an abused wife. The "overarching patriarchal power structure" is made up of individuals. They all suffer.
3. "If women's rights activists want to be consistent and actually work for a world with more equality, they will recognize that the violence perpetrated against men and boys - no matter who does it - is massively important and deserves attention." AGREED! We are in complete agreement on this. Now, has any women's rights activist on DU said anything different? Link?
4. "Why is it when women...accepted sympathetically, but when a man says....ignored, scoffed or diminished?" Patriarchy. Let's do something about it. And, if you see somebody on DU acting that way, please alert. If you've seen it already, link?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)W DU'er from HOF reminded me that issues of violence are men's issues that are to be dealt with on men-dedicated websites and have no place in a woman's forum which is dedicated to issues that affect woman.
And for a bit more perspective on just how anti-male radfem sites are these days, here is but one example of the nasty rhetoric.
http://feministcurrent.com/6776/dont-much-care-about-the-men/
yardwork
(64,373 posts)I don't want my computer to get infected.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I don't know who any of these people are.
I agree that violence is wrong, period, though.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I didn't know either but someone discussed on FB and I read up on them.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I think whether someone thinks Stop Making Sense or The Last Waltz is the best concert film of all time, says a lot about the person.
However, what is truly important about their character is that they realize those are far and away the top two choices.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)They are both awesome and both directed by great directors. Scorcese and Demme if I am not mistaken.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Yeah, I hung out with a few of you in college.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)when the NAACP doesn't spend enough effort combating poverty among white people.
On a more serious note, the issue women consistently raise is that the culture of violence needs to change. But it feels sometimes like when we raise that, the conversation gets shut down almost before it starts. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1114111
To me it seems obvious that changing the culture so we don't glorify violence would reduce violence all around, and reduce victimization of both men and women. But I don't know how to have that conversation with someone yelling about censorship.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Feminism is about advocacy for women. Not for men, not for children, not for society and sure as hell, not about equality.
If you want what's right, then you can't depend on feminism to necessarily promote it.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Feminism is not advocacy for women. It is advocacy for equal rights. It is advocacy for moving away from a system of patriarchy that glorifies and excuses violence, not just against women, but against children and men as well.
Feminism means equality for everybody.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)When there is a study about growing body dysmorphia in boys, it is scoffed at, mocked and derided and met only with derision and vituperation.
http://feministcurrent.com/6776/dont-much-care-about-the-men/
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Your posting to some dodgy website on the net.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)are not the concern of HOF despite the fact that they do affect the overall climate of violence of society that, in turn, affects women.
A boy abused by his mother is just as likely, maybe even more so than a boy abused by his father, to harbor anger towards women that will manifest as violence.
BTW, one glance at that "dodgy website" reads almost word for word like what I see ALL OVER HOF, so it is no accident. The rhetoric is virtually an exact match.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)I don't even think that LLP is a member of HoF or ever posts there. Are you aware that there are numerous different groups for feminists on DU, and that in addition to those, many feminists of all sexes never post in any of the feminism groups? You seem obsessed with one tiny corner of DU. I find this post to be bizarre.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I withdraw my claim about LLP who I find to be a very good and reasonable person.
...so LLP's point was crap when you thought she was an HoF regular...
...but now that you've been advised that she isn't, you withdraw the claim and find her good and reasonable?
Wow.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Last edited Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:36 PM - Edit history (1)
It also sounded to me like I was being left out of the "good and reasonable" category as well.
Judging people based on which groups they post in is called prejudice. I don't think that Bonobo would like it if we dismissed everything he says just because he posts in the Men's group.
Edited to note that the poster has put a good OP in the History of Feminism group so maybe we misunderstood.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Wasn't because she wasn't in HOF and I wasn't intentionally leaving Yardwork out of it.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....DU's version of feminism, or in general?
That "dodgy website" seems to receive high praise from feminists, and has been quoted as a source by feminists here before.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Your post is perplexing. It would be like my saying that Free Republic seems to receive high praise from men. The fact that some men (and some women) like Free Republic does not mean that every man likes Free Republic.
The fact that some people who call themselves feminists on an anonymous message board may (or may not) have quoted from some random website that calls itself a feminist website does not mean that all or even most feminists agree with that.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/12557174
Well, you can take it up with them about their credentials....
Certainly, the people praising this particular blog believe themselves to be feminists. You'd better make sure they get your memo about what feminism is.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Upton
(9,709 posts)if some DUer claiming to be a feminist, posts a bunch of arguments opposing porn, legalized prostitution, the sex industry, etc.. she and her supporters are not speaking for the feminists of DU but only for themselves...and if they make a claim to the contrary that would be incorrect.
Have I got that straight?
yardwork
(64,373 posts)How could it be any different?
I don't quite understand your comment about "she and her supporters." What do you mean by "supporters?" Do you mean people supporting a particular post, chiming in to say +1 or that they agree? Or do you mean other people who regularly post in certain groups or forums?
If I post something in Meta, do you assume that Warren de Montague agrees with my post and is one of "my supporters" because he regularly posts in Meta too?
Should I assume that you agree with everything that Lumberjack Jeff says because you and he post in the Men's group a lot?
Edited to add that I realized that I had not responded to your question about feminists. "Feminism" is a very broad concept. There are millions of people all over the world who consider themselves to be feminists. It is not an organization, or religion, or philosophy, or anything with written rules or guidelines. There's no secret handshake among feminists. No club meetings. No guidelines that state this or that is feminism. So yes, anybody who says that "feminism is this or that" is speaking for themselves. It's their opinion.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....this whole sub-thread started with you defining feminism for another poster. Now it's a broad term that means different things to different people.
In the end, the "dodgy website" has been quoted here before. That's all I'm saying.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)All we do is express opinions. But I never claim to be speaking for other people. For instance, I am not speaking for you, even though you and I are posting together in the Men's group and thus could be described as being part of the same group.
Now the next time I express an opinion in Meta, you probably wouldn't like it if somebody got mad at you for something I said. What if they said to you, ProudToBeBlueInRhody, why can't you control yardwork?! After all, she's part of your group isn't she???!
Upton
(9,709 posts)Therefore, it only follows, that any self proclaimed feminists who would use such a platform to refer to others who disagree with them as misogynistic, are once again speaking only for themselves and it certainly doesn't mean they're correct in their assessment...would you agree with me there?
Look, I'm not trying to be a hassle, and the point of this post may elude you (heck, it's eluding me) but it appears one DUer's definition of feminism, or what constitutes a feminist, is not necessarily the same as anothers...and it might be a nice idea if everybody realized that before hurling gender based insults..
yardwork
(64,373 posts)I mean, I agree that it's usually not a good idea to hurl gender based insults if one can avoid it. But I don't see how that phrase follows logically from the rest of your post. Edit - I reread your post and I think I understand. Sorry - I didn't get your point the first time. Are you saying that it's wrong to accuse somebody of misogyny just because they don't agree with one's assessment of what is or isn't feminism? I think that would depend on the specifics of what is being said.
To recap, I agree that any self-proclaimed anything is speaking only for themselves. For instance, I am a lesbian. When I express my opinion on what it's like to be a lesbian I'm speaking for myself. When I express my opinion about lesbian rights, I'm speaking for myself. I may express it in general terms and talk about how other people feel about lesbian rights, but at the end of the day my post is me expressing my opinion, and another lesbian is very likely to disagree with aspects of what I say.
I'm new to your group here, but I imagine that you don't all agree with one another on everything? One person's opinion about what constitutes men's issues is going to be a little different from somebody else's opinion, correct?
So yes, I agree with what you say here: "one DUer's definition of feminism, or what constitutes a feminist, is not necessarily the same as anothers..." What that has to do with hurling gender-based insults I don't know. But those are to be avoided, I agree.
By the way, I have two sons. I love them dearly. Maybe I should post this in an OP since I seem to be hanging around your group. I could introduce myself...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But it can be reasonably inferred that those who recommend something I have posted, agree with it. If dozens were to do so, it is plausible to suggest that this is reflective of prevailing sentiment.
There are plenty of individuals here inclined to "educate" me about what feminism is. They rarely get pushback from other feminists suggesting that this is presumptuous.
The main pinch point of feminism is "advocacy for women" vs "equality". In Bonobo's post upthread, I think that the author of feministcurrent is simply piercing the bullshit marketing. "What about the menz"? She's right. She doesn't give a shit about men or about equality, and it must cause massive cognitive dissonance to continue pretending that she and her like-minded readers do.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)(btw, can I ask a quick question? I've been wondering if all the people who recced the thread by "Hope Hoops Wife" agreed with everything she said in her OP. I noticed that you recced it. Did you agree with everything she said?)
Back to your post - I don't know anything about feministcurrent. I didn't follow Bonobo's links because I didn't trust the site.
I don't agree with you that the point of feminism is advocacy for women vs equality. I believe that feminism means seeking equality for all people, men and women.
Upton
(9,709 posts)Trust me, I'm not a doctor or a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express just recently....
http://safeweb.norton.com/report/show?url=http:%2F%2Ffeministcurrent.com%2F6776%2Fdont-much-care-about-the-men%2F&product=NIS&version=19.9.0.9&layout=Retail&lang=0901&source=toolbar
Go ahead, take a look at Bonobo's link: http://feministcurrent.com/6776/dont-much-care-about-the-men/
And then tell us how that kind of feminism can in any way be interpreted as seeking equality for men..
yardwork
(64,373 posts)yardwork
(64,373 posts)The site appears to be run by one young woman who seems to have had or have a career in radio. Seems kind of like a female shock jock, saying outrageous things to get publicity. I don't care for the dismissive tone of her essays but most of it seems to be tongue in cheek.
If you compare this to Rush Limbaugh there is no comparison. He's far worse.
The owner of this site no more speaks for all feminists than Rush Limbaugh speaks for all men.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I don't remember recommending it (taking your word that I did), but in retrospect, I wouldn't do it now.
I'm not attacking, but I think it's worth examining that belief.
Do you think that it's unjust that so many blacks are in jail?
Do you think that it's unjust that so many men are in jail?
Do you think that it's unjust that pakistani girls don't go to college?
Do you think that it's unjust that US boys don't go to college?
Do you think that it's unjust that women are underrepresented in the Senate?
Do you think that it's unjust that women are underrepresented on the ground in Afghanistan?
If the practical application of issues is inconsistent with your belief system, I think it's plausible that you're operating from a belief system other than the one you think you are.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)yardwork
(64,373 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's inherent in the difficulty of having it both ways;
a) don't expect the women's movement to do this stuff for you
b) feminism is about equality.
Only one is true: "A"
Confusious
(8,317 posts)Sorry, but after 3 days of reading, I doubt that statement.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)I don't think it's hard to find ideas that are on the fringe, but overall I think the feminists who actually seem to turn their ideas into action seem to be for true equality. Every single federal and state labor law that was fought for by feminists serves men just as equally as women. I've seen men win 6 figure discrimination settlements.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)It's inherent in the difficulty of having it both ways;
a) don't expect the women's movement to do this stuff for you
b) feminism is about equality.
Only one is true: "A"
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)...and I don't completely disagree with his statement. There is some flavors of feminism that I don't believe really are too concerned with equality. They seem to want privilege in exchange for alleged privilege.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)Seems to me they see it as a 0-sum game, they have to take away "privilege" to gain "privilege."
I don't see it as 0-sum. You have every right to bring yourself up and ask me to help. You have no right to try and bring yourself up by tearing me down in the process and then ask "Why don't you help?" "you got nothing to complain about."
Uh, yea I do, being treated like shit, be it man or woman.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Both genders are privileged in different ways. If the goal is equal opportunity, the idea is to eliminate privilege at least as far as laws and rules are concerned. This may or may not have an effect on outcomes, which are often dependant to culture rather than rules or laws. Sometimes the answer to privilege is reverse privilege. Affirmative action is an example of this because discrimination based on race is generational and sometimes equal opportunity doesn't get you where you need to go. I'm not sure that concept translates well to gender based discrimination which isn't generational.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)I don't understand what you mean.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)Looking up the statistics that that they, one that you, quote as gospel.
Looking at behavior. Looking at what is considered "equality." What is considered "truth." What is considered "discussion."
I really didn't like what I saw.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)What statistics have I quoted as gospel?
Would you share with us the titles of the books or the articles that you've been reading? I'm sincerely interested.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)If things such as experience, type of job (men have more dangerous jobs, they make more. 2,000 die each year. When 85 women died on the job in a year and newspaper headline said something to the effect "it's a national disgrace" are taken into account, men and women are equal.
Here's a good post:
Background: Elevator-gate: A woman got into the elevator, a guy hit on her, she said no, nothing else happened. Firestorm erupts.
Sexism, misogyny are everywhere and must be wiped out, and if you have questions or disagree in the slightest, you are a sexist, misogynist, or an enabler, or all of the latter. Oh, and victim blaming. can't forget that. It must be nice to be right all the time, no matter what.
http://freethoughtkampala.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/elevatorgate-part-2-the-failure-of-skepticism/
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I mean, it is possible to get over-attached to labels, which are always subject to debate and interpretation, but I interpret "Feminism" to mean equality.
Women have not, historically, been equal to men in Western Civilization. Certainly things have improved, but for one I do not believe that we are 100% there, yet. Same with race relations in this country. Things have improved, but discrimination is still real. Still a problem.
I know many women in the corporate world. Things have gotten better but there is absolutely an old boys network still in place, in many areas. There is a glass ceiling. And pernicious assumptions and expectations, although it varies from company to company and situation to situation.
But that time is going away, and good riddance. I do believe we will eventually achieve as close to a genuine meritocracy in this country as the world has ever seen. But we're not there, yet.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If that is the goal, women's organizations would be happy that they've reached or nearly reached it.
Same with education. You don't see women's organizations open up their scholarships to men because of the inequality.
Instead, we're told to "look at the big picture". Women shouldn't register for the draft until every Pakistani girl has access to education.
I'm for equality. So much so, that I think it should be measured.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)By all measures, equality is not close to being achieved.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's not a matter of competing statistics, it's not a matter of differing definitions. The definitions and factors are deliberately chosen to paint the most misleading possible picture.
Full time working women make 25% less than full time working men because "full time" men work more hours than "full time" women, in higher paying careers (that have fewer benefits, more danger and greater unemployment), and they spend more time in that career.
Once you correct for those factors, the pay gap essentially disappears.
Even the most rudimentary apples to apples comparison would apply those factors, but the real point of the exercise is to paint a picture of how much it sucks to be an orange, and keep that image in the public consciousness to justify the author's own existence.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)You can find the reports at the sites listed.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Most of the pay gap is due to issues of choice rather than discrimination. That's not to say discrimination doesn't exist, isn't a factor, and shouldn't be addressed. It absolutely should.
Women are generally more likely to be less productive because they spend more time taking care of children and family and their overall pay suffers for it. However, when you compare actual pay for actual productivity, women aren't that far off. I've seen more than one study that compares never married, childless women and men and the pay gap is statistically irrelevant. Equal opportunity doesn't always mean equal outcome. If you want equal outcome, then you're going to have to address family issues and culture, not gender discrimination so much which is already illegal.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)But it's not as if the other side of that doesn't promote their own intellectual dishonesty. I'm not so sure that their failure to correct ignorance is really serving their long term goals all that well, but they seem to have parlayed misconceptions to their advantage, vis-a-vis Lilly Ledbetter. Were it not for the general public ignorance about pay parity, I don't think they could have gotten that done and the cause of gender equality for all would have suffered. I try to find the silver lining in those things, and I think in that small way there is one. I don't really see too many feminists pushing for unreasonable legislation although there may be some.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's been illegal for my entire life to pay women less for the same work, but the 180 day statute of limitations often expired before the injured parties learned that they were being discriminated against.
It's a good and necessary tweak, but it's not some sort of revolutionary thing.
It bugs me that it's perceived necessary to engage in wholesale distortion to get simple stuff like this fixed.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)The laws you are talking about are really just a means of redress for people who have been discriminated against illegally more than government prevention against it. Effectively employers are allowed to break the law as much as they want and only really face ramifications if someone files a complaint or a lawsuit. Smart employers won't break the law, but there's a lot of employers out there who just aren't that smart. The law really depends almost entirely on the rules that govern it. That's why Republicans always seek to stack the deck on behalf of the employer. The Ledbetter Act took some of that back and it benefits all employees, not just women.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Where is this "culture of violence"? Is it in video games? WWE Wrestling? Hollywood? Does it have a headquarters? Meetings? A Board of Directors?
It is supposed to be taken as axiomatic that it exists, it's real, like mashed potatoes and airports are real, and that it has a direct relationship to actual acts of violence, like violent crime.
So answer me this: because I've asked it in several different fashions, and no one - no one invested in these sorts of broad cultural narratives which always seem to come with grandiose pronouncements and ill-defined prescriptions like "we (who?) have to change the culture of ..." (what? where? how?) - seems to want to answer this direct question based upon actual real world information:
Namely, why have violent crime rates- by every statistical measure - dropped over the past few decades? Why are they lower, now? (FBI, June 11, 2012: "Near-Historic Lows" Certainly, there is still violence, certainly, violence ought to be opposed and violent crime ought to be prosecuted- but the fact is, it has declined and is declining.
So, are the statistics wrong? Or is the "culture of violence" already changing?
I ask, because the folks invested in this narrative of a massively fucked up culture that is becoming more of a "sewer" by the minute, don't seem to have an explanation for why violence is decreasing if everything is getting worse and, most importantly, needs to change.
Maybe the change is already taking place. Maybe "we" are already doing what needs be done, since violence is going down.
Also, since you brought up race, would you argue that racial and socioeconomic groups with higher rates of violent crime "need to change" more?
noamnety
(20,234 posts)I don't have a definitive answer, and don't think anyone does. But wikipedia lists the primary theories, and while they aren't a reference I'd site for an academic paper, it's a good start point on theories:
The number of police officers increased considerably in the 1990s.
The prison population has been expanded since the mid-1970s.
Starting in the mid-1980s, the crack cocaine market grew rapidly before declining again a decade later. Some authors have pointed towards the link between violent crimes and crack use.
One hypothesis suggests a causal link between legalized abortion and the drop in crime during the 1990s.
Another hypothesis suggests reduced lead exposure as the cause; Scholar Mark A.R. Kleiman writes: "Given the decrease in lead exposure among children since the 1980s and the estimated effects of lead on crime, reduced lead exposure could easily explain a very large proportioncertainly more than halfof the crime decrease of the 1994-2004 period. A careful statistical study relating local changes in lead exposure to local crime rates estimates the fraction of the crime decline due to lead reduction as greater than 90 percent.
The first two don't address causes for the violence, only causes for the decrease (locking up people before they can commit repeat crimes). It would benefit people in general - and men in particular, given incarceration rates - if we could reduce the violent tendencies before they turn into prosecutable crimes.
The drug link seems self-explanatory.
The abortion link is interesting, with an assertion that the states with the earliest legalized abortion had the earliest decreases in crime, that drug usage as a cause doesn't hold up statistically because the drop happened across the board even in areas that never had a major drug problem to start with. They claim that "states with high rates of abortion have
experienced a roughly 30 percent drop in crime relative to low-abortion regions since 1985" and legalizing abortion accounts for up to 50% of the reduction. http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewpdf.cgi?article=1028&context=blewp&preview_mode=
The drop is in people coming of age in the 90's - in other words, the first generation born when unwanted births were able to be legally terminated. So that's a strong argument for both men and women to actively fight for women's rights - it reduces violence against both men and women.
Lead poisoning is a big issue around my area, metro-detroit. "More than half of the students tested in Detroit Public Schools have a history of lead poisoning, which affects brain function for life, according to data compiled by city health and education officials. The data also show, for the first time in Detroit, a link between higher lead levels and poor academic performance. About 60% of DPS students who performed below their grade level on 2008 standardized tests had elevated lead levels." http://www.freep.com/article/20100516/NEWS01/5160413/High-lead-levels-hurt-learning-DPS-kids
Of course, no child left behind ignores the cause and lists those schools as failing and blames the teachers, and republicans look at Detroit and come up with racist theories, I think you alluded to those in your final question. And I don't know anyone who puts the blame squarely where it belongs - CEOs who got rich off lead smelting plants and then engaged in white flight like everyone else once they trashed the area. That's not cultural in the sense we're usually talking about when we discuss a culture of violence, but it points to a strong connection between environmental policies and feminism, if we're looking to reduce violence against women, and an equally strong connection between the environment and men's rights if we're discussing violence against men or incarceration rates.
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)My personal feeling is a large portion of it is just driven by an aging population. But I do think there is a trend, worldwide, towards less violence- and that is part of it. I think the world is becoming more connected, more prosperous, and more free, and these things lead to less violence.
Free exchange of information, open minds, open communication. Less violence.
I do think, in terms of incarceration rates, the big one there is the drug war- because our prisons have been filling, not with violent criminals only, but with a lot of non violent drug offenders. I believe the violence associated with the drug trade - from the 80s to today - is a function of prohibition, much as Al Capone and his ilk figured in with alcohol being prohibited.
I think we need to get the government out of the consenting adult morality business, completely and finally and across the board.
You will find no stronger advocate of reproductive freedom and choice, on this board, than myself - I think any cultural fallout from Roe v. Wade is irrelevant; the bottom line is, the government shouldn't be forcing women to remain pregnant against their will. Period.
But where I take issue, again, is with broad sociological narratives like a "culture of violence". The folks who had the Thunderdome in Mad Max; they had a culture of violence. I don't see our culture having a helluva lot to do with violent crime; I think much violent crime is driven by socioeconomic factors (which can explain some of the racial disparities without "racist theories" and for sure maybe there's some environmental stuff, too. But I don't buy the idea of a culture (much less men, which was my objection to the original piece) deeply in need of "fixing". Cultures evolve and change organically, which we have seen in the US along lines like LGBT equality. It takes time, but as MLK noted, the arc of history is towards justice.
I think that's still true.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It seems we are all angels. Besides those other people, the bad eggs, are not my problem. There is no culture of violence, as the rates of violence are declining, or something. Besides some women voted for the Iraq war.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)it is their reason for existing. it's like asking why dont gay rights groups come out and protest when straight people are not getting their rights.
the question is absurd.
secondly, there is a difference between inter-gender and within gender violence.
you want to do something about it, why not have a men's group dedicated to lower violence amongst men instead of wondering why women's groups are doing nothing about this.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You focuses on the specific part of my post that offended you, the part asking why women's groups don;t mention violence against men. I get that and I understand. You are sort of right, but the real point of the post is the lack of attention that is given in the world at large about male violence.
Are you denying that part? And yes, we DO have a men's group and we DO talk about being less violent against each other. But THIS post is about the lack of attention paid by society to violence by men against men and it is suggesting that the media (and even you by your quick defensiveness) serve to diminish the importance of the issue as if men's lives are worth less and violence against them isn't worthy of attention as compared to male vs. female violence.
So then since you know we are a men's group focusing on violence, an issue that affects MEN disporportionately, WHY did you come here? Just to grouse about the one word I put in that about "women's groups"? Well, forget them. I don't expect reasonable treatment from them when articles like THIS exist.
http://feministcurrent.com/6776/dont-much-care-about-the-men/
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Feminism is about advocacy.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)what exactly is wrong with that?
and to clarify by "it" i mean women's rights groups
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Women are 60% of college students. Feminism seeks to extend the margin by which women dominate education.
"Equality" is a head fake. It's marketing. It's "dolphin safe" tuna. It's "clean" coal.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)with 60% education, where are the percentage of women in upper management or at the C-level?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Who's the privileged one, Ann or Mitt?
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)seriously?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Largely because they live longer and inherit the family's net worth.
And in the case of Ann Romney, she didn't have to work a day in her life to earn it.
Furthermore, when AAUW studies lifetime earnings of female college graduates, she skews the average down. Because her earnings are zero, she contributes to their inflammatory headline "women college graduates earn less".
yardwork
(64,373 posts)Because I've never seen anything remotely like what you just said supported by any data.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Here's another
http://www.supportingadvancement.com/vendors/canadian_fundraiser/articles/womens_affluence.htm
American women by themselves are, in effect, the largest national economy on earth, larger than the entire (!) Japanese economy.
Over the past three decades (1970-1998), mens median income barely budged (+0.6 percent after adjusting for inflation), while womens has soared +63 percent.
Women bring in half or more of the household income in the majority of the United States.
Women control 51.3 percent of the private wealth in the United States.
Women control most of the spending in the household - about 80 percent.
Still not convinced? In The Power of the Purse: How Smart Businesses Are Adapting to the Worlds Most Important Consumer -- Women, (Pearson/Prentice Hall 2006), author Fara Warner asserts that:
Women account for more than 50 percent of all stock ownership in the United States. By 2010, women will account for half the private wealth in the country, or about $14 trillion. By 2020, you can expect that number to reach $22 trillion as wealth continues to shift from men to women.
When women and men of equal education, abilities, and similar social status are compared, the pay disparity disappears. Those women make as much as, if not more than, their male counterparts. Forty-one percent of the 3.3 million Americans with incomes exceeding $500,000 are women.
Women control or influence 67 percent of household investment decisions. Forty-three percent of Americans with $500,000 or more in investable assets are women.
Women control 48 percent of estates worth more than $5 million.
Bonus answer:
"Women now control 60% of the wealth. When will men stop oppressing us?"
Unintentional irony is the best kind.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)men. I would think it needs to start with men- what are you all doing to raise awareness?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)attention it is largely because men aren;t bringing it to the forefront. I asked why men aren;t advocating more for themselves and got dead silence. I only see guys bring it up on DU to distract from discussions of women's issues. I don;t see them talking about violence of Dads towards their kids, or the bulling young boys and teens subject each other to, or why is it men are much more likely to spree kill. I only see negative reactions towards claiming their (problem is) is bigger"
instead of wasting time fighting women's advocacy why aren't they doing their own- or join us in an bigger effort against child abuse?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am not fighting advocacy for women and I am sorry you see it that way.
I am pointing out that violence against men by men should be treated with the same seriousness that violence against women is treated. Period.
The fact that what you take away from it is to turn this discussion into a discussion of women is ironic because it is precisely what you are accusing me of doing. You are turning my OP about how more attention into violence against men into an issue spotlighting the plight of women.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and while I haven't seen you in particular jump in women's threads and say "Hey what about us, we have it worse!!" I know you have seen this happen frequently too.
So it makes it look (a little bit) like you're aligned with guys that ONLY bring up the issue to slam women who advocate for themselves. I don't believe that's your intention. But it is fallout from your framing that this has much to do with women.
Honestly- men seem to not be interested in advocating against violence very much at all, it's very sad. They'll discuss women;s advocacy- and their disapproval of it till the cows come home, LOL. Weird. But the reaction when you ask about it is very defensive at best.
Not one man actually responded to discuss their own advocacy, or reasons for a lack thereof. The silence here about it is stunning.
Why do you think that is?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)If men advocate against violence, as you say, they can be accused or taunted as being wimps or whiners.
It goes back to school days. It is a deep wound in men. It is born from a desire to be strong like Dad and to protect mom. It is inherent in what it means to be a man to be strong, so to show weakness is a deeply held fear. And that fear must be overcome to speak out.
Anyway, I know you are being honest, and so am I when I say that it is no help at all that you keep turning this back into a thing about women.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)So you kind of got what you asked for.
It's a shame that men would think that not appearing weak is a more important thing. It kind of supports the whole "might makes right" pov that is at the root of this culture of violence. I wish I saw more men speak out about child abuse or bullying, because I think it would help shift the culture to a saner place at a faster pace. When I was in Ireland years ago, helping out with interviews of grassroots as well as peace activists, they were over 80% women. I asked them if this was an anomoly or if they same the same when they met with other groups fighting sectarian violence and they all said no, that's about the percentage. The guys are not volunteering, they take paid management positions at charities, but rarely do any freebies. Even though the vast majority of violence was man VS man, the activists were mostly women. Fighting for a better future for the men and boys they knew, and by extention, for a better society. It's sad that many men can't seem to get together and fight for their own boys sake, let alone society's.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And no, I did not ask for a fight. I posted in the Men's Group and we don't really post here in order to be seen by women and stir up fights.
The fact is that here is an OP specifically about violence against men and you are here doing two main things.
1. Telling ME that I started a fight with women and my main purpose is to be anti-female advocacy and I am just trying to undermine the real issue which is violence against women.
2. Telling me that men don't advocate against violence enough (ironically even though that is what this OP is) and implying that they sort of deserve it because of that fact -kind of like how I deserve to have you here on my thread because I "asked for it". Imagine a man popping up on a woman's thread and saying the woman "deserved it" -what a shitstorm that would be.
Anyway, I am done for the time being with this. I don't want a fight with you so if you have nothing better to do than to tell me how wrong I am for starting this OP, I will just leave it at that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)it's really insulting to see you're claiming I said anything negative about your purpose. You're dead wrong. And instead of replying about the broad question of why more men do do anything- you made it about yourself alone?!?! Really?
And me implying men deserve the violence? LOL, you've really gone off the deep end there. I said nothing of the kind.
I asked you why you thought men don;t do the advocacy- a concept you agree with *but an idea unexplored in your thread* because it got derailed by the distracting woman framing. ANd your knee jerk, self centered, paranoid non answer gave me a clue to one possible answer. You can't get out of your own fucking way and look past making it all about yourself. in THIS case, I am (finally) talking about you.
And yeah- YOU framed it as man vs woman in the title, and should take responsibility for the fact it spawned discussions based on your OP's title. That's usually what happens here.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The narrative being spun is that men will do stuff for money (Greedy!) but not for free (Greedy AND self-involved).
"the activists were mostly women. Fighting for a better future for the men and boys they knew, and by extention, for a better society. It's sad that many men can't seem to get together and fight for their own boys sake, let alone society's. "
The narrative here is that women are good, giving and have their hearts in the right place but men don't.
It's in your own words and impossible to miss. Sometimes when you get wet from above it is rain and sometimes it is cause someone is pissing.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)about a time when I met with about 50 activists over a month period- that supports what we were both saying....
you get your back up and make it all about you, and suddenly I'm a man hater. For agreeing/ supporting what you said- but apparently cannot discuss rationally. LOL. Ridiclous.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Check out anti-gang workshops. They are run largely by men. Unpaid men.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)response. so thanks, but...
look at the paces you put me through just to get an answer. That kind of sucked. We should be doing better than this.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Sorry.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because I know you saw the same weird knee jerk thing happening because I saw your great post about it.
And then I said, darn it, he's doing it to me, ha.
But I've done that too. SHHHH.
Yeah, awful day.
I'm a bit freaked out too because I have a nephew who is suffering from mental illness, and his parents are in total denial. The system doesn't have money to deal with it, so denial is pretty much officially encouraged.
The USA sucks when it comes to mental illness. I feel really shitty about how little we watch out for these kids.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)is my facebook friend's roommate? Yeah, crazy huh... I was talking about it to her.
She said the brother, Ryan, got the news in the bus back from work on the internet.
Their room was searched by the FBI with a bomb-sniffing robot. The brother is, of course, in shock.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I live a few blocks away. My friends own the closest bar to their house, DCs. Get my nails done right next door too.
The FB rumours were that Dad was there with him, and dead. Hopefully the missing GF story is also wrong.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Hoboken is all I know.
And I didn't want to ask her any serious questions since we were chatting over FB and I assumed it was being monitored.
They took her cell phone and Ryan's.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Bonobo: Violent victimization of men, despite being more common, is a problem equally important as victimization of women.
LLP (in GD): Explain to me why this is a concern for me as a feminist?
Me: It's not. Victimization of men isn't a feminist issue because feminism is an incomplete solution for social problems.
You: What are men doing about it?
The direct answer to your question is not enough, because progressive men have it in their head that feminism has got the social equality thing under control. They don't and in fact they don't even care (except perhaps as individuals) about the wellbeing of men.
Men need a progressive advocacy movement of their own, but whenever this is suggested, it is opposed because feminists don't want the competition.
Ireland years ago, helping out with interviews of grassroots as well as peace activists, they were over 80% women. I asked them if this was an anomoly or if they same the same when they met with other groups fighting sectarian violence and they all said no, that's about the percentage. The guys are not volunteering, they take paid management positions at charities, but rarely do any freebies.
Remember this paragraph next time we discuss "the pay gap".
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)they are not seeing that it is a required consideration while working on women's issues.
I just pointed out that he frames it as man VS women, and got a discussion on it. Same as when men jump in threads and try to make it about them. Unproductive.
Not sure if you are understanding what I said about the trip to Ireland. I found it ironic that is was almost exclusively women doing the unpaid grassroots work against sectarian (largely man against man) violence. It goes against these stereotypes.
But many felt men didn't want to be seen as weak or hurt by a situation that was, by all accounts hurting many men. But that also men would only deign to do it if they could take a leadership position- often expecting this after not paying any dues. And organizations would look past more qualified women and hire these self interested men who could't care to fight the fight without a direct reward. Sucky management overlooking more qualified women because they feel they can exploit them. Somehow you'll explain to me that this is okay. It's not.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's "social attention to the welfare of men" vs "social attention to the welfare of women".
There's ample proof that the latter is more common than the former, which is in fact actively discouraged.
Regarding pay; It's not ironic or even surprising. Women choose careers heavily biased toward nonmonetary benefit, while men do not.
I recently accepted a part time job as the executive director of a small nonprofit. I absolutely love it, but it is about 1/4 the wage I'm used to. I'm very fortunate to have the kind of family support to enables me to make this choice.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)As far as the framing goes, it sucks that people need to try and make women feel guilty - or disrupt their conversations- because they are jealous of their success. That's time wasted not advocating for what you feel is important.
You really have to look at why it is so difficult to organize men- are they afraid of appearing weak? Are they too focused on short term or personal gains? Why aren't they pushing through- as women did a while back- and advocating in a big way for their causes already? I think you need to get past the blame game and stop being intimidated by women's success and instead, learn some lessons from them. No one handed this to us.
I'm not going to get into the whole monetary benefit thing, because I know you think there should be more men working in education- and we both know this is only going to happen if they start being compensated in an adequate fashion. I'm all for that too.
Women historically got into teaching because it was one of the few socially acceptable careers fifty years ago. Back then women weren't really "choosing" as much as permitted with reservations to have jobs. Careers were looked down upon. And fifty years ago, it was the rule and not the exception to grossly under compensate women. Hopefully we will have parity soon.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Many men are too ashamed to get help
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Richard Linklater directed, Jack Black as the title character who plays this sort of syrupy-sweet fundamentalist Christian assistant funeral director who gets involved with, and subsequently kills, a rich widow played by Shirley MacLaine. Based on a true story.
Brief digression, since I'm a film person and nerd- I wasn't hugely impressed with this movie. I thought it was pretty dull, not particularly thought-provoking or dramatic. I mean, it was watchable, Jack Black is a bit of a kook playing a very different brand of kook in this thing. I wasn't sure what Linklater's angle was on it- usually in my experience his stuff is usually a bit deeper.
I suspect the appeal, such as it was, of the story for RL was that this town was so enamored with the glad-handing, psalm-singing murderer (and, by most accounts, not particularly fond of the victim) that the murder trial had to be moved to a different venue.
But the trial, such as it was, wasn't really much of a case. I mean, the murder was confessed to, it was pretty cut and dried- I guess the only question was one of premeditation, and the movie seems to indicate it wasn't particularly premeditated.
But the relationship between Jack Black and the Shirley MacLaine character- watching it I was reminded of many of the warning signs which are stated for abusive relationships- she separates him from the rest of his life, micro-manages his decisions, controls where he goes, is verbally abusive, and at one point keeps him a prisoner in her house by closing the front gate in front of his car as he tries to escape.
Watching this, it occurred to me that if the genders in this relationship were reversed- if this were some crazy, mean, nasty rich old man keeping a younger woman prisoner on his estate- would there be a case, would there be an argument, upon her 'snapping' and shooting the guy, that, 'this was a response to an abusive relationship and as such the charges should be mitigated'?
Let me say- obviously- I don't think that's the case. And clearly no one ever tried to make that argument here. But I do think if this story had reversed genders, it's not so far fetched to think a defense atty. might have tried.
Major Nikon
(36,900 posts)Because of the inherent differences in the sexes those demons sometimes manifest themselves differently and sometimes not. I've known women and men who were very much like that and they are typically the ones who either wind up married several times, or they are alone because nobody can stand them, or they find someone who has a very low self-esteem and just puts up with it.