So, why are all of the women I meet out of my league? And usually unavailable.

[Denninmi]

Probably because, if I were playing for an NCAA team, it would be about a "Class F" school.

I think I need more self-confidence in this area of my life, too.

I would like to at least make an effort, it's been a long dry spell, if you know what I mean. Really long.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

2. Dude, I suggest you self delete, now

This is not gonna end well

[Denninmi]

4. Yeah, you are SO going to get an alert on this one.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. it worked for the '83 White Sox.

...what?

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. This could be worded better.

Something along the lines of "try to see past the superficial".

The inevitable jury is going to do it for you. Guaranteed.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

3. The first thing you need to do is drop that attitude

That's a start.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. Volunteer, and forget the gym as a place for meeting women.

Last edited Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:55 PM - Edit history (1)

No one I know ever dated anyone they met at the gym.

Bars? I dunno. Not my cup of tea, I guess.

My recommendation is volunteering for social service organizations like United Way or something else you believe in - at least you're around like-minded people.

edited to add: the gym is a worthwhile place because you're there to focus on you.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

7. You're probably too honest.

What common thing or common things do these out-of-your-league women value? Is it money? Is it the potential for being next to someone who has confidence and power because of money?

You need to figure out how to be subtle and let these women convince themselves that you have what they value. If money is what they value (and most women do), then playing the game can be as simple as having a few nearby props such as an investment magazine casually left on the back seat of your car. You decide what will work for you. Get in the game if you want to score.

[seabeyond]

8. wish you the best.

bummed by some replies. feel ok by others. i have been reading your posts and know your struggles you have shared. depends if you are talking one nighters (luck) or more. if more, we are older now, dont do the games like some suggest. do not believe all or even most women are about money. just not true. how you go into this, is what you will get out of it.

lots of lonely of both genders out there looking for different reasons.

but... i like your progression the last handful of months. be confident and have fun.

[Denninmi]

9. Well, a serious relationship would be nice.

Last edited Thu Jan 3, 2013, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)

I was never a one night stand kind of guy.

I could pontificate on how my attitude on that issue has evolved, but wouldn't want to get my first-ever DU alert by offending prying non-male eyes.

I could be open to it. Any port in a storm.

Edited to say, thanks, I appreciate the support of everyone here, it has made a difference in how I feel about myself.

And that is actually the real battle, the only battle. Once I got past the initial presenting problems, depression, anxiety, and severe frequent panic attack, it all became about attitude. No one in "real life" except my mother, who broke me down with tearful questions but has been very supportive, even knows about this - well, my employer and coworker knew there were problems, but were respectful enough not to push for details, even when I essentially took the entire month of Sept off as a medical leave.

My MH issue is pretty unapparent to the outside world, I pop 3 pills of the mood stabilizer lamictal daily, usually in my car or office. And, I act a little strange, not in any bad way, just doing new things that are so out of character for how I used to be prior to this, like becoming a gym rat at 47 , when I was the awkward, bookish, non-athletic nerd 30 years ago in HS. Grew a beard, lost weight, bought a bike and rode well over a thousand miles, joined the gym, hired a couple of trainers to work with me, upgraded my look and wardrobe a la 'Dancing In The Dark' ("I want to change my clothes, my hair, my face" - vintage Springsteen), spend a lot more time away from home on outside activities. Other than those few minor things, ok, they're major things, no one knows anything. I do all the things I always did, go to work, laundry, housework, walk the dog, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. I think socialization in general once you get into your 40s gets more challenging.

People insulate, settle down, their boundaries get more defined, etc.

I did alright in my 20s, either single or in a series of relationships, but even then I found the whole 'meet-n-mate' dance a pain. I think some of it is, if you're relatively self-aware it's hard not to be self-conscious and as such overthink things, which can make it weird.

I wouldn't want to try to do it again, at my age. I guess the only thing I would add is, I think it's tough for everyone, women too. So don't be too hard on yourself. I wish you luck.

[loli phabay]

12. use the internet plus you may be trying to play in the wrong leaugue.

The perfect partner for you may not be perfect but rather perfect for you. Everyone always believes they are a leaugue when in reality they are c or d leaugue. Good luck.

[Dash87]

13. Most women will not approach you and ask you for a date.

I think that's most mens' problems with finding a date. If you see someone you like, just ask them out. What's the worst that can happen?

Don't listen to the "act rich" or "act like an asshole" people. Just be yourself, and ask many people out - one is bound to say yes.

I object to the term "leagues." I always found that whole concept pretty stupid - I don't believe there is such a thing - just people with different interests. I also noticed that you're insulting yourself in your OP - maybe that's part of the problem? It's like climbing - don't look down - just go for it. Don't pretend to be something you're not, and have a positive attitude.

Also, have you tried the internet? I have a few friends that have had good results from it.

[Springslips]

14. Join groups. Meet ups.

Just to socialize more--not to date. This will help you feel better about yourself. Find stuff you like. Learn to do things that woman, many woman, will like. Most people do the same old thing dinner and a movie. You would be amazed at what ice skating and a run through the mall will do. Be adventurous, this can be as simple as trying new things. Don't just go after anyone; know the type that you like and find out if you are their type. Woman are not from a mold, they vary as much as anybody else. Remember the best relationships are two that actually like to be around each other in an equal relationship, have similar ideas of spirituality, money, openness and are at a similar intellectual level. Don't sweat failure and don't be outcome dependent. That's about all I can say. Try online dating, it is not the best, but you can find a few dates there.

[klook]

15. Don't think about "Leagues" at all.

Sorry, coming late to this thread, but this is crucial.

I suggest you get a copy of The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm. Fromm was a profound influence on me and my thinking about relationships. He writes about different kinds of love, not just erotic/romantic love.

This passage from the foreword is a good indication of Fromm's thinking:

This book...wants to show that love is not a sentiment which can be easily indulged in by anyone, regardless of the level of maturity reached by him. It wants to convince the reader that all his attempts for love are bound to fail, unless he tries most actively to develop his total personality, so as to achieve a productive orientation; that satisfaction in individual love cannot be attained without the capacity to love one's neighbor, without true humility, courage, faith, and discipline. In a culture in which these qualities are rare, the attainment of the capabity to love must remain a rare achievement. Or--anyone can ask himself how many truly loving persons he has known.

Fromm writes from a broad perspective: Although his training was in psychiatry and psychology, he draws on Taoism, Indian philosophy, Western philosophy, and other sources for inspiration. (There is some material about love of God, too, but it's not heavy-handed.)

To me, some of Fromm's most enlightening ideas come in the section of the book called "Love's Disintegration in Western Society." He writes that in western capitalist societies, all things -- including individuals -- become commodities. When we conform to this system in every aspect of our lives (which most of us do without even realizing it), we "market" ourselves to potential partners and start thinking of ourselves (and partners) as products with a value on the love market. Witness the proliferation of references to women as "10s" or "6s," etc., and to men as "alphas," "betas," "Mr. Right," and so on. Even beyond "hotness" scales or class distinctions, there's the sense that we're each in some "League" or other and women are either "out of our league," available to us, or beneath us.

"Automatons cannot love," writes Fromm. "They can exchange their 'personality packages' and hope for a fair bargain." He describes and refutes several variations of pathological "love" -- neurotic love, sentimental love, the "egotism a deux of a "two-against the world" kind of love, etc.

Don't despair, though! Despite all this talk about what is wrong with predominant Western models of love, Fromm offers this:

Love is possible only if two persons communicate with each other from the center of their existence, hence if each one of them experiences himself from the center of his existence. Only in this 'central experience' is human reality, only here is aliveness, only here is the basis for love. Love, experienced thus, is a constant challenge; it is not a resting place, but a moving, growing, working together; even whether there is harmony or conflict, joy or sadness, is secondary to the fundamental fact that two people experience themselves from the essence of their existence, that they are one with each other by being one with themselves, rather than by fleeing from themselves. There is only one proof for the presence of love: the depth of the relationship, and the aliveness and strength in each person concerned; this is the fruit by which love is recognized.

The essential message of this book -- and I think it's a wise one -- is that we must first love ourselves (self-affirmation, not narcissism), and that, paradoxically, our strength as individuals and independence make it possible for us to truly love another.

One last quote for you from this great book:

In contrast to symbiotic union, mature love is union under the condition of preserving one's integrity, one's individuality. Love is an active power in man; a power which breaks through the walls which separate man from his fellow men, which unites him with others; love makes him overcome the sense of isolation and separateness, yet it permits him to be himself, to retain his integrity. In love the paradox occurs that two beings become one and yet remain two.

Best of luck to you, Denninmi -- don't put yourself down. Just be the best person you can and socialize a bit, and you'll meet somebody you can have a good relationship with. It happened to me.

[loose wheel]

16. What are your interests?

Forget the dating part of things, just find clubs that have an interest similar to what yours are.

Also, quit putting women up on a pedestal. The good news is you're forty-seven. The women that are likely in your age group have likely been through a divorce. If you have a decent income, are a good date, haven't been through a divorce, and aren't paying child support yourself puts you in the category of the girls back in high school that had the pick of any guy they wanted.

You mentioned biking. Join a local biking club. You will at least meet people that share your interest in that.

Put in some hours doing local charity work. There isn't a volunteer organization out there that isn't short man hours and would be happy to have you aboard. Again, you'll meet people.

After you've done those for a while, the self-confidence issue will resolve itself somewhat because your out meeting people and you'll find you have friends and options.

In case your wondering, I had a bitter three year marriage that was so bad it got to the point that I dreaded the end of the work day, because I knew there was going to be a fight at home that night. After we split, I just kept recounting all the things the two of us had done wrong seperately and individually. The latter went on for about five years before I started dating again, and that was a completely dry spell for me. Then I decided to move on. I've been serially monogamous for the last eight years or so, still don't like the notion of marriage.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Christ, man, I'd think the cooking *alone* would make you some friends.

Maybe you should do an continuing education class or something on it at the rec center or the JC.

[Denninmi]

18. Hey guys, thanks again.

I see this thread popped back to life after a couple of weeks.

Yes, I really DO need to work on this particular area of my life. I find that I keep noticing a particularly beautiful woman at my gym who is the girlfriend of a particularly big bulked-up personal trainer who could so twist me into a pretzel if he wanted to. Not that I'm staring at the young lady or anything, mind you, but hey, I'm a guy, I have eyes, and I'm not dead .... you know.

Like the Cowardly Lion, I basically just need some courage ....

[Warren DeMontague]

19. I'm sure you realize it's probably better to start with someone who's more available-

for more than a couple obvious reasons.

Still, I have noticed that being unavailable or committed does NOT stop people- of either gender- from looking.

[bettyellen]

20. please don't be that guy who stares *keeps noticing* particular girls in the gym

it makes us really uncomfortable. you need to either acknowledge our humanity and say hi *expectation free* or move on. fixating on looks is an admission you are totally shallow and the only people who are cool with that are likely to be very shallow themselves. yes, they're out there, but is that what you want? i've dated a few guys who followed me around and asked me out immediately- without taking a minute to get to know me. they have an idea in their head that you are it for them, and it's based on nothing real. It's delusional.

this girl is with someone else, you're ignoring so many more likely partners by fixating on an image you have of someone you don't know at all. women will notice this, there's a few guys who do this at every gym, and they're never nearly as stealthy as they think they are. if your glances keep going back to the same person, if you're trying to align your schedule with hers so you can peep more, you're doing it wrong. and we're talking about how uncomfortable you made us in the locker room. instead try exchanging a few words with her so she becomes a human being, and stops being an image in your head, on a pedestal.

try thinking of us as and treating us as whole human beings, (not as you imagine us to be) and engage women whether or not you want to date them in a stress free way. do not only focus on women who are generically "hot" unless you want to compete with a dozen other shallow dudes and get a rep as a creeper. I bet once you look around and meet people, you will suddenly find there are lots of great gals out there - funny smart sexy people - that you weren't able to peg as such at first glance. And some of these people will find out you are smart funny sexy too. but don't stress the situation by being goal oriented with your interactions with women. and forget that crap about carrying around the financial times unless you actually want a gold digger instead of someone you value spending time with. We know that ploy too. You really don't want to trick someone into being with you, do you?

Good luck.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. The gym sucks as a place to meet people.

Everything about the place is bad in that regard.

I'm happy to be married. At no other place am I more frequently reminded of this than the gym.

[bettyellen]

22. Ha ha, yes. Maybe if you're a gym rat it'll work. But it's like the beach, women are often a bit

more guarded because with less or tighter clothing, you get much more frequent creeping. And really nice guys can forget and stare a bit too long or frequently than comfortable, I think because they're doing something boring and repetitive and you get in a thoughtless zone. Unfair or not, we notice this stuff. So yeah, not the best place.
But both the women who work out and the women that work there constantly talk about who's creeping, because someone almost always is. I dated someone who went to the same gym, and after we ended it, he was pretty stalky. He was so stealthy it was concerned employees who first pointed it out to me. I had thought it was weird how frequently I was running into him other places, but if they hadn't told me they noticed, I would have chalked it up to coincidence. It got to be so unpleasant I just stopped going.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I've noticed that the *noticing* is not confined to any particular gender, myself.

Of course, maybe that's just me, since I'm dead sexy.

[Denninmi]

25. GUYS, you are absolutely the best.

Absolutely fucking awesome. Thank you for that!

[bettyellen]

23. Just wanted to add that I posted the warning about the gym

Because I know nice guys that have said they really have to exhibit a ton of self control not to stare. And women are hyper aware at the gym, so it's easy to fall into that trap.