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[redqueen]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by (a host of the Feminists group).

This message was self-deleted by its author (redqueen) on Thu Feb 16, 2012, 12:35 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[cyberswede]

1. Oh no!

I've always enjoyed your posts, and appreciate you fighting the good fight.

Your responses in threads (especially the egregiously sexist threads) are the voice of reason.

DU will be a poorer place without you.

[redqueen]

6. I never thought I would feel physically ill after reading posts here.

Now that I have, I don't see the point in sticking around. There is no moderation, and I don't care to see the kind of swill that MRA types post. I avoid places like that for a reason.

I thought we could challenge and discuss that kind of idiocy and raise the level of discourse. Unfortunately, with the new jury system, I don't see anything getting any better any time soon.

[foo_bar]

106. I've had a similar sensation lately

Kind of a Pavlovian gut-punch whenever I see certain usernames on certain subthreads. Without minimizing the suffering of real life violence and abuse victims, DU's "jury" system metaphorically resembles the cop in that GD story, or at least I can empathize with the nausea that accompanies injustice compounded by systemic revictimization. I almost posted on this subject in H&M, but I realized physical revulsion isn't a great debate tactic in itself, plus I'd have to scribe an 80 word disclaimer (1. Yes, I've heard of the ignore function, 2. I've also been apprised of "trash thread", 3. True, there's an alert button, but it isn't really connected to anything, and 4. No, I did learn to read at some point, and I even try to perform a rudimentary form of analysis that permits potential interpretations of otherwise innocent looking letter combinations.)

Serially rude posters defending their callousness seem to prevail with the vox populi, while thoughtful and ceaselessly polite posters are silenced by our two-wolves-and-a-lamb democracy-for-dinner if they run afoul of majoritarian prejudice... I sent a few alerts on one particular thread, and all of them came back nullified, some with variations of "Lighten up Francis", "get a grip", "you need a thicker skin" aka put some ice on it, and on one panel the ad feminem was rationalized thusly:

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The small handful of posters here who seem to find sexism behind every post need to be called out like this. They are ruining DU.

The next day, I was seated on a "jury" after this post was inexplicably alerted with the following explanation: "Another allusion to, as another poster put it, 'a mysterious "Rape Culture"' on DU. This attacking of unnamed people on DU is an attempt to disparage the community without a shred of evidence for it."

So actual personal attacks = she deserved it, mysterious allusions to nonspecific injustice by unnamed people = attack on the DU collective. I don't want to compare the alert button to calling 911 in Milwaukee, because our 911 works fine as long as you alert unpopular opinions with content solely objectionable to a denialist status quo.

[seabeyond]

109. damn, you are good. what a post. ..... yes. nt

[iverglas]

110. not to be discriminatory here

but I think I have to play favourites out of all that:

True, there's an alert button, but it isn't really connected to anything

Many little rofl thingies.

I know juror number whatsit didn't get the allusion to "the culture" and most of us probably did, but just in case: it's from the thread I was locked out of in H&M the other day, actually from the thread that thread was about, explaining to all of us whitebread dunderheads that there's something about the culture in Jamaica that makes over-30 women who've spent time in the company of really vomitous pop stars prone to making false allegations of sexual assault against said pop stars. I'm not actually sure, though; it could have been something about the culture in Jamaica that makes people prone to disbelieve women in that class who make allegations of that nature.

[ZombieHorde]

2. Sorry to see you go.

[Feldspar]

3. Not I, however

please see your pm inbox for a message from me.

[seabeyond]

4. no.

i a feeling the same and i am getting pressure from family.

[redqueen]

8. I only want to participate on sites that aren't overrun

by MRA types spewing bile.

If the community at DU doesn't have a problem with that kind of ugliness, then this just isn't the place for me.

[seabeyond]

10. i hear ya

if you find a place you are talking about, let me know. i looked around the other day and i didnt find anything.

realy, my issue is the lack of maturity in it all. i didnt play it as a kid, dont want it now.

[DonCoquixote]

60. pardon the question

but what is MRA?

[seabeyond]

96. Men's rights activists....

that being said, and only hanging with boys and men all my life, i know very few MRA men. i know a lot more men that have an innate privilege that they do not recognize and an inability to appreciate what women are saying. not consciously. not cause they are mean or want to repress. but just cause.... they dont get it.

personally, i think there are very few MRA men on du. i do recognize a couple. one, i can appreciate, though i seldom agree with him. we get along.

[CrispyQ]

5. Losing you as host does not bother me as much as

losing you on this site/forum. Sadly, I have not been around enough to know which thread(s) you are speaking of & what happened.

There is much about the new DU that I don't like - the default for all threads to land on the Latest is my biggest gripe. I feel that takes away from a safe haven environment & opens our community (& others) up to those who are disruptive.

Also the jury system stinks. It's censorship by the popular. I feel like I'm back in junior high.

I hope an internet break will refresh you & that you return.

As for a host for this site, not me. I'm feel I'm not here enough to qualify as co-host.

[redqueen]

9. The jury system is a big part of this.

I alerted on two posts over the weekend which advocated prison rape. One jury hid it, the other apparently thinks advocating rape is peachy keen.

It's fast becoming a sewer, and I can see myself reading and recommending, but not participating. It helps to avoid comments altogether on some websites, and this appears to be one of them.

[Warren Stupidity]

107. That poster is/was a troll. The goal of trolls is to wreck and disrupt.

[rrneck]

7. Think about a break first.

It's easy to obsess about this stuff. This place has a way of causing a skewed focus on issues that aren't necessarily an accurate reflection of the real world.

You do good work here, hate to see you go.

[redqueen]

11. I appreciate that.

However I have to disagree with you about the reflection of the real world. That's exactly the problem. A lot of people come to DU and expect things to be at least slanted toward progressive ideals. Instead it's just like every other site on the net. Worse than some, even, and that's very disappointing.

[Feldspar]

13. "issues that aren't necessarily an accurate reflection of the real world."

But things like rape and *people* advocating for rape and making rape jokes and confusing rape with some financial discomfort ("I just got raped by the electric company", for example) IS the real world. You hear such such things every single day everywhere you go!

DU is not some magical Good Guy space or something it's simply another reflection of the patriarchal mindset.

[rrneck]

19. This place is made of words.

It's a linguistic lens that excludes the bulk if meaningful human interaction. There are no Shakespeares here, just people throwing words on a wall. There are some words I won't use here because I can't imagine anyone here annoying me or hurting me enough to use them, or out of deference to their sensibilities because of the nature of the place. That doesn't mean I won't use them elsewhere because its my right to use language as I see fit.

I think what we are discovering with DU3 is that we aren't as homogeneous a group as we thought we were. To my mind only one thing really counts here - votes. If we want to fix this country we need to find common ground. That common ground is money. The 1% has our money and we want it back. If we're going to get our money back a lot of women are going to have to get used to cooperating with guys who will stare at their chests and call them baby, and a lot of men will learn to walk on tippy toe. We've been working on that problem for 15,000 years so I don't expect a solution any time soon.

Language is plastic and people will bend and stretch it almost beyond recognition. Its like jello. You can mold it any way you want. And it's really hard to physically hurt someone by hitting with a handfull of jello. I always try to remember that in a shit throwing contest it's not how much you throw, it's how much sticks to you that counts.

I bet if we all got together in real life we'd get along pretty well.

[seabeyond]

20. and some people choose not to live in the shit. that is what we use to have with du

an effort for all of us not to wallow in shit. now, not only must we have shit all over us, we are suppose to throw it back.

no thanks.

it stinks....

[rrneck]

27. You dont have to throw it

just don't let it stick to you.

This place is primarily focused on politics, and that old adage holds true here: politics makes strange bedfellows.

If you really want to change things you have to change people's minds, and you'll never do that by simply telling them what to do. You have to convince them to want to see it your way. It ain't easy, because you may find your way isn't exactly right.

Your best friends are always the ones willing to tell you the stuff you least want to hear.

[seabeyond]

30. i find the majority of women present it in a manner that is not about telling them "what to do"

but why it is harmful.... leaving it to others to grow. i find the most closed minded and name calling, dismissing coming from the shit throwers.

there are people on du, men... that are actually open to conversation, and though we may not always agree, we listen and are respectful. we can even see the others point without agreeing.

that has nothing to do with the smell of shit.

[rrneck]

55. Well, maybe I'm too thick skinned.

But I don't care what people say. I'm more interested in what they mean, and why. Most of the time when I dig into why they believe things, no matter how hateful, wrong, or silly there is at least some sliver if a valid reason for those beliefs. And that's where common ground, and political victories, are found.


Generosity is the foundation of civilized behaivor, and somebody has to go first. In all the places where that can be tried, this is about the safest you're going to find.

[seabeyond]

57. maybe, you are not a woman. and maybe you have not experienced the aggressive attack on females the

last decade from all sides. only to see us continually taking steps backward on being treated as a viable, useful, productive, respected member of society. and yet still.... we continue with our voice, fighting time and time again. explaining our position and why it is so very important, not only to us, but for you. and for our children. both genders.

and when we do speak up, we are continually hit with insults, attacks on our sexuality, patronized, condescended to and told we dont have a thick enough skin.

yet still, we continued a reasoned conversation hoping there will be a point of understanding.

[rrneck]

69. It's true I'm not a woman.

I'm a draft animal. As much as I enjoy our conversation I have to go repair the foundation of a house for an unenployable trust fund baby. Before it's over I will have drug about two tons of concrete under there. Wish I could afford a house and the time to make the kind of art I want.

Both genders have their crosses to bear, and they won't go away until we worry about something beyond each others sensibilities. We can argue all day long about hurtful language and respect, and at the end of the day Mitt Romney will have made another $57,000.

[seabeyond]

71. but see, i will stand up for you each and every time without it being a bother. or anyone else,

being slighted. it goes beyond my own personal sensibilities, unless a fairness and balance for all is my own personal sensibility.

[rrneck]

74. Same here.

I'm not saying hurtful language is OK. I'm saying there are bigger fish to fry. And when that fight is won, respect will come right along with it.

[iverglas]

79. I know you are fully intending to be respectful here

but I think you would benefit from reading the SoP.

A safe community where all those interested in discussing and trying to resolve the problems that are inherent to women in society can come and work together, without having to defend the basic premise that issues do exist which specifically affect and limit women, their rights and their potential.

... Well, it got pretty abridged in the end, I see ... but my point is that a man telling women in this forum that "there are bigger fish to fry", in relation to an issue the women are telling you is a big fish, is not necessarily viewed as helpful.

[rrneck]

88. The issue that most dramatically

affects women is the unfair distribution of resources. Women don't get paid enough. They don't get healthcare. They don't get child care. They don't get equal opportunities in the workplace. They simply don't get a fair shake in this economy.

Do you really think a bunch of kids camping out in the rain is going to make those fuckers pay up? This is just the beginning. There's a fight coming. A big one. The biggest since the thirties. And its going to take all of us, men and women, to prevail. If we don't stand together, we will fall one by one.

You can have all the conferences, seminars, fellowships and university chairs you want but I'm here to tell you the only place you're going to get respect is in the streets. Amorphous perceptions and linguistic permutations just don't offer people anything of substance to rally around. And if you do manage to latch onto something somebody on Madison Avenue will just cook up something else. These culture wars only serve to bleed off support and divide us against a foe that can produce outrages faster than we can respond to them. And all the while there will always be the purveyors of umbrage to tell us how somebody is insulting us in a new way. Disaster capitalism is everywhere.

Truth to tell I'm not trying to be respectful. I'm being honest. If all you want is the semblance of respect and nice words then enjoy your gilded cage. But if you want people to treat you with genuine respect you're going to have to take it. That's how you deal with the men who are the cause of women's troubles beyond perceptions and terminology.

And the tragedy is that the real world problems that plague women plague men too. All we have to do is pull together instead of fighting culture wars among each other.

[Feldspar]

93. "And the tragedy is that the real world problems that plague women plague men too."

Oh, really?

When was the last time you were impregnated against your will? When was the last time a female forced you into penile penetrative sexual intercourse? When was the last time you were in the position of having the "right to choose" whether to carry a pregnancy to term (with all of the attendent, life-long physical, social, financial, medical, psychological ramifications) or to terminate a pregnancy (with all of the attendent, life-long physical, social, financial, medical, psychological ramifications)?

When was the last time you had cervical cancer? Or ovarian cancer? Or uterine cancer, or fibroids or post natal bleeding or or or or any other female-specific, life altering/ending "problem"?

NO, the "tragedy" is that males only want females to be Human when it suits their interests.

[rrneck]

95. Is that what men want? Prove it. nt

[iverglas]

101. I have to refer you back to the statement of principles

This particular thread is about redqueen's decision she can no longer participate at DU, and the reasons for that decision - reasons that are widely shared among the women who are active members of this protected group.

None of us would disagree that all the problems you mention seriously affect women. But the issue in this thread isn't theproblems women experience out in the real world, or how anyone thinks those problems should be ranked; it's the problems at DU that are driving women away from it.

Believe me, a lot of women have been driven away. I contacted one via DU2 a couple of weeks ago just as a start on, hopefully, getting a few more of our long-time feminists over to the group here. She replied saying, essentially, that she wouldn't touch this place with a 10-foot pole.

I wasn't really clear on what she was talking about. It's only since hanging out in H&M in the last week or so that I've got a better idea. The hostility to women, the sheer crass gross misogyny on the part of a significant segment of the DU population, has become apparent in this brave new DU. And we're not talking newbie trolls; we're talking long-standing, prolific members. There are different varieties in the crop of misogyny on parade, but it's all ugly, and it's all being paraded with impunity. Juries are wilfully letting it proceed, and a whole crowd gathers to join in when the parade starts.

This, if you like, is its own meta-discussion. It's about the barriers women face at DU, not outside the cave. It's about how these women at DU are dealing with and reacting to the barriers being shoved in their faces.

I'm afraid I have to say, speaking as a co-host, that your last post at least is out of place. We don't want to be told that words don't matter, because we know they do. We know that it is easier to abuse a woman if you have carefully destroyed her spirit by calling her all the ugly names men call women. We know it is harder for women to achieve equality in any realm in society when men look at women and see them as what those names represent.

Yes, we know it's easier to destroy a woman's spirit, and abuse her, if her economic opportunities are not equal. But that isn't the subject of this thread. The subject is the very real harms done by the kind of attitudes on display at this website, the viciously ugly things said to and about women, the intimidation, the absolutely blatant muscle-flexing and displays of power put on when women speak to those issues and concerns.

We've lost redqueen, the latest in quite a long line. If you're concerned about this phenomenon, then you want to be out there "on the street" -- in GD, in H&M -- hell, in that Men's group thing -- standing up and standing with the women who are telling you and the rest what our reality is.

Whatever you decide to do in that regard, I think it's fair for me to say in my co-host capacity that this isn't the time and place for the broader discussion you're wanting to turn this to. Thanks.

[rrneck]

102. Ok. I'll leave you alone and i hope there's no hsrd feelings. nt

[Feldspar]

80. Another MRA outing himself right here in *Progressive Liberal Land* - Anyone surprised? n/t

[rrneck]

92. Whats an MRA? nt

[Feldspar]

97. Look in the mirror, or use Google like everybody else. n/t

[rrneck]

100. I didn't deserve that.

But that's OK. I can take it.

So what's an MRA?

[Violet_Crumble]

111. I didn't know what it was either till I read this thread....

It's a Mens Rights Activist....

[snooper2]

119. I'm started to get tired of people making up acronyms totally outside of process..

First of all, if you aren't in radiology or marketing you shouldn't be using that acronym. Second, there is a well defined process that you should be aware of. Third, only pre-selected individuals are allowed new submissions. Most all submissions should come from industry and trade organizations.


How in the hell can I do my job if I'm talking to somebody from say Global Crossing and ask what was set in the SDP. Then the person on the other end said, SDP, what's an SDP? Oh, to anchor the media- we call that MGA or whatever. See, no standards, mass confusion, racoons selling Scotch tape on the sidewalk

[redqueen]

22. Please think about what you have just said...

but reframe it as if you are directing it at racial minorities or some other minority group who is being treated disrespectfully, and being asked to put aside their desire to be treated as equals for the sake of 'working together'.

See how it sounds then.

I will vote the way I know is right, but I will not fraternize with bigots. I know people who treat women like things first and people second don't consider themselves bigots, but that is where I have to disagree with most people.

[rrneck]

39. I'll give you an easy straight line here

feel free to have fun with it if you want. Do I sound articulate to you? Do I sound educated? I hope so since i have an MFA.Would you consider me a bigot? A sexist? A racist? I certainly hope not, because I am none of those. But if you spoke to me in person, I'd sound a lot like the guy on the right:



I went to graduate school north of the Mason Dixon line. Many of the people I met assumed I wore a pillowcase on my head every weekend. Even today when I open my mouth I have to hear jokes about rednecks and the idiot fundies down south. And sometimes I play along just to get along even though I know I'm more intelligent and highly trained than ninety five percent of the population.

I wasn't born into a liberal culture. I had to work and sacrifice for my beliefs, and I still have to listen to people who never had to give a second thought about how right they are or where their next meal is coming from look down their noses at me every time I open my mouth. And they are, each and every one, "enlightened liberals". It seems I get a pass because I can explain cubism.

Believe it or not I have worked shoulder to shoulder with exactly the sexist, bigoted, racist, no class yahoos that irritate people on this board so much. And I tell you truly they are more accepting, generous, kind and understanding than any number of "liberals" I have met. I didn't necessarily agree with them, and I generally didn't enjoy their company, but we had to get along to get the job done. "Those people" understand that to survive we have to put our misconceptions about others aside to achieve more important objectives. And in doing so we learned about each other. You'd be surprised how many converted Democrats I've left in my wake. You would be amazed how a common goal can bring people together.

[Feldspar]

26. With all due respect, rrneck

WORDS MEAN SOMETHING.

That's why we use them to communicate.

Jeezuz, what a dump...

[rrneck]

32. Sure they mran something.

Make them mean what you want them to mean.

Anybody that tells you that controlling language will change anything is selling you a bill of goods. If you can't expunge a word here, how much luck do you think you're going to have in the real world?

How many people have made a lucrative living advocating the control of language? How much progress has been made in that regard? None. But a lot of people made a lot of money at it.

I think one of the most important books in the twentieth century will be Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine . People creating entire fields if study devoted to the control of perceptions are just doing disaster capitalism. It's impossible to control language. Its unethical to control thought. But looking beyond the worst people have to offer and finding our common humanity is what helps us survive as a species and as a political party.

Nobody can really hurt you here - unless you let them. A fight here is the safest fight you will ever have and those who use words to upset you already know that.

[Feldspar]

35. "Nobody can really hurt you here - unless you let them."

Hasn't this stick-and-stones argument been done to death? Words do hurt.

Please remember that pornography is considered free speech in the good old USA. So following your *reasoning* women and girls who have been used for/groomed by/coerced with porn allowed the harm done to them.

Nice.

[seabeyond]

36. or the seeming willingness to ignore our teens killing themselves because words hurt

Last edited Mon Feb 6, 2012, 02:01 PM - Edit history (1)

i find this interesting. have a thread on a kid bullied, by words, and end with suicide and there is an outcry.

have a discussion about words matter, and we are told "we" allow them to hurt. ok. fine. so? stop. you are hurting people. kids killing themselves. adults not able to stand up, speak out, be strong.

what?

are we progressives really saying fuck you, to all those people. i am strong and that is all that matters, so fuck you?

the contradictions we live in life really are the interests i hold, regardless of the frustration with it.

btw... i am agreeing with you

[Feldspar]

38. Thanks, Seabeyond :)

I'm glad you elaborated on the subject.

[rrneck]

42. I haven't seen any porn here. Only words

and lots of cat pictures.

[Feldspar]

52. You are deliberately *missing* my point and that's

exactly the craven behavior I am/we are referring to.

To paraphrase: These words/speech don't hurt me, so shut up already.

Bootstraps, ladies, bootstraps!

[seabeyond]

54. i think that has been the most frustrating. actually taking the time to make the point and

it being ignored.... for the win. wtf? who cares about when. reply to the point.

[rrneck]

63. And you missed my point.

Words don't hurt if you don't let them. If all it takes are bad words to make you back down what are you going to do when the real fight starts?

The struggle is not over words. This is about resources. It's about money. If you somehow win the battle of words you lose the war for justice. Talk is cheap. When you demand respect from a corporation you get a mention in the company newsletter and a parking space close to the door for a month. It means nothing to them but it keeps the purveyors of umbrage in business.

If you want a real victory and the respect that goes along with it take their fucking money. And if you plan to do that you're going to have to get help from people who use some pretty foul language. You may find that in working with them toward a common goal you will earn their genuine respect, not just a bunch of words.

[seabeyond]

72. you are wrong. they feed. the feed into every part of our life. they feed into how a child sees

worth as a human. it feeds how a partner feels about the other. it feeds how a gender treats another. it feeds how a race degrades another. it feeds the hate, the anger, the ugly.

or

it feeds the love.

our choice.

but words certainly matter.

[rrneck]

75. Words matter, but deeds matter more.

Right now, at this moment, every woman who put a plate of food on a table, made a bed, answered a phone, or punched a keyboard should be in the streets screaming "we want our fucking money!" Not because they're women, but because they're human beings that deserve to be treated right. If that happened there would be a bunch of men right there with them. If we work together toward real, tangible justice culture will follow right along behind us.

This business of worrying about who says what to whom and how perceive each other simply divides us and gives the other side victory by default.

Don't believe me? After the triumph of women and minorities in the sixties and seventies and the political power it brought, how do you explain everything that happened after?

[seabeyond]

83. words matter, deeds matter, behavior matters, intent matters.

basically, you have come into this forum, this thread, to say the same thing you have always said. suck it up. the sexism is irrelevant. and that is what you are syaing, in telling women to ignore it and the history of it. the history that has inDEED caused deeds to effect all of us.

there has been absolutely no effort to have a discussion, but to put forth your position, and that is it.

words matter BUT....

there is no BUT. once you say but, you have said, ..... words really dont matter ladies,

then, when push comes to shove.... we all have our issues. so, even if there is an issue, suck it up, cause we are all in the same boat.

what was the point entering this thread, in this forum?

[rrneck]

91. I came hete to suggest redqueen not leave.

And I'm not telling anybody to "suck it up". I'm telling you to pick your battles. There will never be an end to the hurtful words. Never. Trying to fight an "atmosphere of hate" is just fighting air.

If the host doesn't like what I have to say feel to PM me. But I think you overlooked a question. After that tremendous running start women got in the sixties and seventies, why aren't there service industry unions as far as the eye can see in this country? Half the population made a great leap forward so where did they land?

[seabeyond]

94. words condition the brain. words are what effect the action. words create the mentality

you are not getting it. it is that simple. used in propaganda, used in commercials, used in fox news.... to CONTROL behavior, deed and actions.

that is why it matters.

you have to start at the base.

you can try to accomplish all kinds of things, but whe we talk about a group, continually, constantly, in a degrading, demeaning, dismissive, denigrating manner, that is how you will think of the individual and the group. your ACTIONS, DEEDS are effected by the mentality created by WORDS.

[rrneck]

99. The street is the base youre looking for.

If you want to educate men, and not a few of them need it, make a country where people don't have to work all the time. A place where people can take a moment to learn something.

Women could be the largest and most powerful voting bloc in this country, so what happened? Women are half the labor force, so what happened? Women are more articulate than men, so what happened? I watched a video in this forum the other day where the speaker said, "It's worse." Why?

[Neoma]

103. People seek power by being around the powerful.

Instead of finding power for themselves, they go with the system that's in place, which happens to be our patriarchal society.

[Neoma]

105. Then keep it on that topic.

Make a new thread, because you're derailing this one. Redqueen shouldn't have any arguments in her goodbye thread.

[DonCoquixote]

62. I agree

I was an early supporter of the Jury system, because A) I had seen omderators blatantly become corrupt, like the creeps who suppoerted Charlie Crist, even though that was a big no no. and B) I wanted us to have power, but sadly, this bit of democracy is opening the door for the types that are self righteous, centrist creeps, I do nbot know if that is what you meant by MRA. However, the fact remains, if you leave, then the people you hate will plant their flag right here, and then proceed to take over whatever part of the intertnet you wish to go to. Ask the folks on Huffpo.

In other words, do not let the (insert expletive that applies to either gender) win.

[BlueIris]

12. I feared something like this would happen. There is no attempt to regulate content here anymore,

and it has largely killed this website. Really offensive crap is left up and deemed acceptable within the current system of "community standards." The callous disregard of those who rightly object is being ignored. I consider DU3 to be a complete failure. I'm sorry it has driven away another member.

I can't offer any help for this forum, because I am barely able to hang on to my co-hosting responsibilities in another group. I don't think I'm going to make it much longer, either.

I'll miss you, redqueen. Thanks for your service.

[redqueen]

14. Thanks...

I really am sorry to have to give up the fight here, but like the saying goes, you have to pick your battles, and this one seems to be a lost cause.

[Whisp]

43. Skinner sees the good angels in us all, or it seems.

and he trusts the population here to 'do the right thing'. I think Skinner needs a bit of a shake - there are a lot of people here taking advantage of that huge loophole he set up for them and are testing the waters of all kinds of 'isms - and getting away with it far too often. There is this false perception that 'liberal' people are all fair minded and not bigoted or sexist, etc., - that is bullshit in a big pile.

Hopefully, things may change for the better. But I would much rather go back to the Moderators than have this ridiculous russian roulette juries. It's disgusting that the lowest common demoninators get to thumbs up or down on some very important issues here.

[laconicsax]

15. Assuming that at least one of the current hosts stay, you're safe to retire.

Sorry to see you go, but considering how I'm thinking the same thing, I understand perfectly.

[redqueen]

18. Thanks...

since we were so careful to be democratic about the host decision I wanted to make sure whoever would step in to replace me would be as warmly welcomed as I have been.

[laconicsax]

21. The way the host system works makes that somewhat unnecessary.

The 'first-come, first-served' hierarchy of the hosting system sets up a pirate ship type succession where everyone moves up in "rank" when a host leaves.

Since neoma is in the #2 slot, she'd automatically become the main/lead host if you retire.

[seabeyond]

23. i think she should be the one out of all of us anyway.... nt

[redqueen]

24. Aha, thanks.

All done now.

Good luck to all of you.

[redqueen]

17. Well it's still very deeply entrenched, the patriarchy.

I doubt most think about it at all. Too many of those that do seem to like things just as they are.

[DonCoquixote]

65. Is it just a patriarchy

Or are there some ladies who like it this way too? I wonder if we have some Sarah Palins in here.

[seabeyond]

73. this has become a favorite quote of mine. i understand so much better now. i know

because i too participated in it to not feel in the opressed, until i realized i was chacklin myself up, willingly.

"So it seems that women, just as other oppressed groups, often perpetuate the same prejudicial thoughts or behavior that they’ve experienced in a way to separate themselves from the oppressed group and be accepted as part of the positive majority. Competition is formed in order to be ingratiated to those in positions of power or those seen as possessing positive characteristics. And yet, Steinem explains, when an opportunity is created for the sharing of experiences, a sense of community emerges. A sense of sisterhood, if you will. "

[DonCoquixote]

85. no offense meant

I was just trying to figure out where the blazes the ann coulters et al came from, just like I, as a Latino, wonder where he the hell the Marco Rubios come from (and I still have not figured that one out, yet)

[seabeyond]

87. i wasnt offended. i dont know why you would pull out anywhere in that i was offended.

i was not kinda offended. or sorta offended. or a little offended.

you asked me about the women that dont fall into line about what we are addressing on this thread.

that quote is my explanation. i LOVE that quote. it has helped me to understand not only myself, but a lot of women that in the past confused me.

[petronius]

25. I would be extremely saddened to see you go; I don't post here, but I lurk this forum

quite frequently and have found any number of thought-provoking ideas in your posts and links (my main reason for popping in, actually).

But, I won't ask you to stay: you owe nothing to DU, and if the place has been made joyless despite your efforts, then you certainly deserve somewhere better...

[WingDinger]

28. Youve got it all wrong. Ignorance, is an invitation to teach.

Thank those that illustrate the shortcomings of society. When we all agree and high five each other on our sensitivity, there is no vitality left to that forum.

Show some fortitude. You are appreciated. And as for hiding anything, that is rather ridiculous, given that it can be read with a simple click. USE your position, to draw contrast with your EXAMPLE{lamebrain}.

I even slightly welcome FR trolls. They are good drones to shoot down.

PS. many times, the EXAMPLE wont get it, onlurkers will. They are your pupils.

[Feldspar]

33. Way to mansplain there WD... n/t

[iverglas]

29. I clicked to reply in this thread

And I had DU mail - your host retirement notification. I hadn't realized I was operating in such real time!

I wouldn't presume to counsel or pressure one way or the other.

I see two phenomena, as far as what has brought you to this abyss.

DU itself began a steep decline about 3 or 4 years ago, maybe earlier. Just to take your one example, there were always comments about how people would get what they deserved when they were in prison. They were not daily occurrences, and they were countered when they did appear. But that sort of thing has grown and grown, and the voices of intelligent people of goodwill have stopped being heard.

The whole concept of fundamental (inalienable, etc.) rights has just been abandoned by the US in general, and a large segment of the DU population in particular. Reproductive choice and marriage choice, for instance, aren't a matter of people's human rights, they're all about somebody else's alleged religious beliefs. Criminal sentencing isn't a matter of justifying limitations on the exercise of the right to liberty, it's all about bloodlust and vengeance, with some vigilantism thrown into the mix.

There are simply no principles left. Anybody whom one does not like who dares to claim any right or freedom can go fuck themself (or get fucked), in the estimation of the mob. It's even better in Guns, with its daily multiple pronouncements about how the vermin infesting the gene pool need to be righteously cleansed from it, and my property is worth more than your life. And we're talking about 15-yr-olds' lives. In Guns, we know they're right-wing trolls (which of course raises the obvious question of why they are allowed to be here, sometimes for years). In the rest of the place, they're increasingly just standard issue.

The wayward Puritans, the Jerry Springer audience, have completely taken over. The finger-pointers and blame-layers and navel-gazers and Fuck you Jack I'm all right chorus.

And the form is worse than the substance. The lying and lying and lying, the gross misrepresentations, the baseless, false allegations made against other posters in lieu of response. And of course the chorus of eggers on every time.

So the whole thing was a mud puddle before DU3. As far as I've been concerned from the start of this DU3 thing, what it is, now, is a cash cow. We "DUers" are the product being delivered to the advertisers, just as we are when we watch television and listen to radio, and the revenue is being reaped with a fraction of the effort. Wind it up and turn it loose, under the guise of "community" control, the big democratic experiment. The result is unrestrained trollage, complete absence of standards, and the online equivalent of street gangs. Garbage.

If you're interested in stepping outside the USAmerican mire occasionally, I can link you to more or less the counterpart site in Canada -- or what would be if DU really were a community of progressive individuals. I don't actually post there myself. (Well, I did a couple of times a year or so ago, and managed to offend someone so much in one post they announced they were leaving! I had an accomplice in that effort, someone who had agreed with me, so I won't claim full credit. But goddamn it, the Green Party makes me puke -- for entirely different reasons!) Actually, you might even find you miss DU ... the moderation there is very heavy. One reason I don't post there is that endless yammering much along the lines of the pro/anti-Obama, pro/anti-Occupy, in that case about our social democratic party and who the next leader should be, go left or merge with the centre, blah blah, is about as tedious to me as what's going on here is to you guys. But misogynist language is definitely not tolerated. And hell, it even has a separate forum for sex worker talk.

I'm not in a position to "judge" your decision; it's all very easy for me, looking in from the outside, not to get as sick/depressed about it all (despite how they all are persuaded I'm just all the time so upset, bleah). I do think it's sad that it's come to that for you.

[WingDinger]

31. DUDES AND DUDETTES. Our tent is growing, and there are many motivations for this.

Many of those folks have not yet been sensitized. That is our{YOUR} job. this is perfestly natural.

FR, Republicans and GOP, intend to sicken you from the good fight. Many will shrink not only from political involvement, but even voting. That is their intention.

DONT GO ALONG with organic disenfranchisement.

As one example, a poster some time ago, had a rainbow, LGBT symbol front and center. She made a remark, that whe hoped that the guy found guilty, will now be repeatedly gangraped in prison.

I said that it was criminally incongruent, for her to display that rainbow, and then make gay practice into torture.

She PMed me, and offered to give up her rainbow. I said, there is no more I could ask, than she consider her remarks, modify her view, and carry on. That was an opportunity. That I am thakful for. And that is what DU is for.

Thin skin will eventually get you the very domineering you abhor.

[Feldspar]

34. Way to mansplain.2 n/t

[BlueIris]

45. No one here has a "thin skin." Those leaving are not leaving for that reason.

Last edited Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:56 PM - Edit history (1)

The current incarnation of this website is fast approaching FUBAR status. There is little point to staying, and I doubt many minds left that can be enlightened.

It's irritating to me to see a poster here tell those of us who think this place is hopeless that we are being too sensitive. Rightly objecting to misogyny and other offensive shite is not the result of excessive sensitivity. It's the result of sanity.

[Neoma]

37. But you're a classic member!

Part of the old DU! A voice of reason! We lost too many through the DU3 change.

I can see if you don't want to be host, but breathe, calm down, meditate. Come back!


... Am I really the host now?

[Whisp]

40. so sorry to hear that!

although I totally understand - the sexism and male privilege shit here is just putrid here sometimes I can barely stand it.

can you just take a break for a while instead of bailing? you have many friends here and we appreciate you speaking up for us that don't have the patience you do - we need you.

[Feldspar]

44. Not to speak for RQ but,

having been in her position more than once I have to say that when sisters only come to tell you how much their commentary is appreciated after they've decided it's not worth it, well, it's a little too late.

Why don't more of you speak up? Why the silence? Is it easier to let some *other* woman take all the hits? Afraid you'll be "tombstoned" by the boys?

Why not stand together in the first place instead of picking flowers for the funeral?

[WingDinger]

48. Um, I have done just that. And not always when agreeing completely.

There are far more decent types here, than sexist trolls. But if you are looking for ATTABOYS{sexist remark}, noone get enough of those.

You want backup>? That already happens. Let's roll.

Everyone in this hypervigilant environment, is sensitized to their own plight. Some may not pay enough attention to issues they are not slammed by. Doesnt mean we don't love our sisters.

[Feldspar]

61. Mansplain.4

[Neoma]

50. That's not usually how it works.

You can't help someone out if you don't know where the thread is in question. You have to make an effort to gather the troops by messaging people you trust will come up with a better answer/comeback than you.

At least, that's how I did it in other forums other than DU3.

[Whisp]

56. you are off the mark with that, Feldspar.

I've put some hits in here as well. And don't you dare tell me how to and when to 'speak up' because you know shit about me and the fucking speaking up I do every fucking day of my life.

you are assuming too much and I don't like that tone you have for this particular thread.

The only thing I regret in my post to RQ is that I tried to 'talk her out of it' - well I shouldn't have done that as she has already made up her mind, but that's not big sin as far as I can see - I meant well for her.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. I understand, It is getting hard to stay around here these days.

I'm a forum host and that term will expire after 90 days, otherwise I would step down in frustration too. Being a host means I feel obligated to show up on DU on a regular basis and I'm not at all happy with the direction of discussions here under DU3 parameters. Once my hosting gig is over I'll probably be here far less often.

I hope that you're not really leaving for good.

[Feldspar]

46. There has been talk, at least in my house,

about starting a political/feminist female-only site. The "umbrella" here is too big for female-identified voices apparently.

[seabeyond]

47. woman raped by cop, jury system unprincipled, this thread

i walked away to read a book, but these are the threads i have been in the last hour. reading the many women in this thread alone saying something so simple, an hostile environment for women. why stay.

woman raped by cop and males poster so worried about false rape claims and other divisive garbage

people in meta talking about the unprincipled jury system

so many people on du talking about it and what is the bottom line.

the desire to respect and be respected. that is all.

and it is THIS big of a battle.

it has me shaking my head. why do people struggle so, to have the right to be ugly to another.

[WingDinger]

49. Jury system not broken. It is evolving. People try to be fair.

Many leave comments that were countered effectively, for context. Not an indictment of the system, but wanting a boisterous, meaningful debate.

Just because something is not hidden, does not imply agreement by the community. This system is evolving. Maybe a little fresh. Community standards are not something that can be instant, unless top down. I appreciate the democratic bent of DU3, or at least the attempt. WE ARE NOT DONE.

[seabeyond]

51. some are trying to be fair. many are not. and you can tell that also in the vote and comments left

we have posters flat out state they will not hide anything. they do not believe in censorship. people vote on the subject or poster.

it is a crap shoot if a comment will be hidden or not, with no rhyme or reason.

there is NO standard. that is the whole point. there is NO community standard or any other kind of standard. standard would require a consistency, and there is no consistency at all.

and do you hear wingdinger, the number of women on this thread, who have been on du forever, ready to be done. we have been good to du, for du, and still, so many of us are ready to walk? that says something.

[WingDinger]

53. I have seen some reporting, and some juroring make it a mockery.

They are the responsible parties for the idiocy.

When you are right, you are right. That does not require a hidden post to confirm. It is obvious to all. Go about your teaching. Fools cannot stop that. Huddle up, who's against that? Hell, if you need a bodyguard, I will volunteer, but from what I've seen, you can hold your own.

[Feldspar]

58. Mansplain.3. Bodyguard?! Holy crow. n/t

[seabeyond]

59. grinnin. ya. but he means well..... nt

[Feldspar]

64. It sure is nice to know that some strong anti-feminist

is looking out for our best interests AND even thinks that you can do okay by yourself!

What would we ever do without him?

[WingDinger]

68. Grew up outnumbered. They were anything but shrinking violets.

And I know the tone of my patriarchal post. It is tongue in cheek. This might be one of those thin skin moments.


I am familiar with many of those here. And YES, they are capable. I am serious though, in that if I was summoned, I would help a friend. A FRIEND. Not a subordinate, or girliefriend.

There are many here that will back youall up. And not in a condescending way.

[Feldspar]

76. "This might be one of those thin skin moments." Mansplain.5

What's a "girliefriend"? (I'm asking for explanation this time)

[WingDinger]

77. Another patriarchal tongue cheeking.

I truly like Seabeyond, and many others here. It would be a shame to lose them over FR sneakins, or simple trolls.

If it takes a pileon of fools, I am ready. I am not ready to call DU3 a failure. Maybe this place is not just perfect for feminine sensibilities, but in general, the internet is a rough and tumble kind of space. Men outnumber women hugely. Particularly arguing forums.

I dont know how to change that adequately, so I offer what I can. As some here said, they have not found any other place better. And likely wont.

I am honest, and generally friendly. Mean no harm, but like many professors, challenge anyone I engage. That may be a male thing. I dont know.

There are not enough women interested in internet forums to approach any kind of parity. So, we will do what we can. Sorry.

PLEASE DON'T GO!

[seabeyond]

84. ah, wingdinger.....

challenge anyone I engage. That may be a male thing.

i would hope you know better, lol.

i hear what you say. and yes.... male dominant because they resort to the behaviors we are addressing, and will continue to address, and will always address.

[seabeyond]

66. i am not ready to go yet. not today

but it is all over du. to demean, belittle, i have to speak up. it is all the time. and that is not to how i want to spend my time on du. but, being who i am, i cant let it go, either.

[DonCoquixote]

70. It goes beyind that IMHO

What happend is, you have some p[eople that cannot distinguish between censorship and reprimanding. We have all heard the line about "you do not have the right to yell fire in a crowded theater", reprimanding is when you throw whoever did that out of the theater. You do have the right to say something offensive, but you are expected to be able to deal with whatever you summon up.

Do we want to make it impossible to offend?, If we do, we have it easy for people to say "I'm offended" Feminists can attest that some male types are very good at playing that game, as are a few of the Palinesque ladies. However, that does not mean we cannot, and should not, have ESTABLISHED GUIDELINES on what is UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.

Now, I do not know what thread caused all this, but I could guess how it went. If Skinner had said, for example "There will be no jokes about Rape!" then whoever said this could be have taken down. And if some Ron Paul libertarian had said "what, I can't joke about Rush Limbaugh getting (censored) in prison!) we could have said "sorry, think of some other thing to say, if you can''t think of something that does not involve rape, than get a wits transplant." We can all think of nasty, colorful things to say about Rush Limbaugh, that need not involve that.

Of course, that woudl require care and thought, and frankly, we need to see if the mods are willing to do this, and if we would offer help. Granted, we do not want this site to become a place where no one can dare say "sparkly unicorn poop" without being tombstoned, however, do we really need to split hairs on why making fun of rape is a bad idea?

To any ladies, no offense meant. This was not an attempt to "mansplain" only make a point about common sense, which knows no gender.

[Feldspar]

78. "we need to see if the mods are willing to do this, and if we would offer help."

Feminist women have been offering their "help" for at least 7 years now because that's at least as long as I've been following DU.

The only change I see (and have seen) is for the worse. Truly feminist voices were routinely drown out by ridicule and 'stoning and they continue to be.

Nothing new here.

ETA & FYI - "ladies" is kind of like the n-word these days; it's wise to think twice about *uttering* it.

[DonCoquixote]

82. Ladies is?

I can tell you I was not attempting to say any new "n word. If I may ask, what is the proper term?

[seabeyond]

86. let me ask you, being flexible in mind that you are. because i have been addressing this the last

couple months and find it fascinating.

i have been fighting a society, especially the culture i am living in, to have my sons be called boys, from the youngest of age. actually birth. but 2, 3, 4, and beyond. men are always addressing them as men. society is always telling them they are men way before their time. they, themselves are calling themselves men when they are not adult yet.

and girls..... will be girls.... until they are 50 or more. or ladies.

i have never heard an adult call a girl at 2, 3, 4 and beyond a woman. i have not heard a girl at 16 call herself a woman. and we rarely have anyone call a woman.... a woman.

it is girl, or lady.

how come?

[DonCoquixote]

98. well

someone just told me the proper term is "girls" or women. I told said person that the last time I used girls, I got flamed, even though it was about someone who was then under 18 (and therefore, a girl.)

The point is to show that messages, even the meanings of words themselves, are not as consistent as they may appear, and some of us do make the effort to ask, however, if "woman" is preferred to "lady" I can use that term, though I am curious about how "lady" became the "bad term."

If you are asking me why boys are called "men", well, I confess, I have not heard that. I hear a lot of the opposite; where over 18 males refer to themselves as boys, such as "going out with the boys, homeboys, or so and so is my boy" etc. I myself wondered why the term "boy" was kept, when said people were over 18. As for why your boys were called men, I think, and this is a guess, that children in general are expected to grow up before they are older: men were expected to get jobs, get laid, get heart attacks, and not put too much thought into developing. That is because society tends to want generation to grow up, die, and make way for the next batch of disposable heroes. Sadly, when you take a look at people like Miley Cyrus, people given pressures that would crack 50 year olds before they are 15, the pressure to grow up too quick looks like it is coming to the women as well.

All I know is that "lady" was supposed to be a polite term for a woman past 18, such as it's old counterpart "gentleman" was supposed to be used for men over 18, though that term seems to be obselete. And let's not get into the fact that "guys" is somehow now the unisex term for a group of young males and females "hey Guys!"

As I told another, if the object is to destroy the word "lady" and relegate it to the Museum of Oddities and curiosities along with "Gentleman", fine. The last thing I intended to utter was anything along the lines of the "n word."

[noamnety]

104. The issue with the word "lady"

is how it's so strongly used to define sexist behavioral expectations for women.

Be a Man means be responsible, strong, a decision maker.

Most women are used to hearing "act more lady-like" to mean be more passive, don't be assertive about your opinions, don't play in dirt, look pretty. In other words, shut up and smile. If act like a lady was used to encourage women to be more responsible and strong and forceful about our decisions, women wouldn't bristle and squint their eyes when they hear it.

I hope that explanation makes sense to you.

[DonCoquixote]

108. ok, THAT makes sense

Though in my head, lady meant more like a noble title, but I do get your point, yes, that does make sense.

[MadrasT]

89. "Women" n/t

[Whisp]

67. the system is evolving?

well cut my legs and call me Shorty.

I think People should have evolved a bit further along than what I see here - but yeh, it's the system on DU3, not the minds that type their sexist shit here.

good lord.

[Violet_Crumble]

112. I've seen that 'it's evolving' thing right from the start here at DU3...

Evolving into what? And how?

What I've seen of the jury system is that far too many people don't even try to pretend to be fair, whether they're the irksome 'free speech at all costs!' brigade or those who think telling some to fuck off is totally unacceptable if it's aimed at someone they like and agree with, but totally okay if it's aimed at someone they don't agree with...

And as with a post I saw last night, how do you effectively counter a post like one i saw last night that merely told another DUer that they made them sick? That one was alerted on and let stand, btw...

[ismnotwasm]

81. Not I

But, take a break. That's what I've been doing for several months now. I thought I was out of here for good, but time made me a little nostalgic. Plus elections are coming up

I just remember how easy it is to hide behind words anonymously on the Internet. Even MRA types back down a bit in person. I actually had a recent discussion about Helen of Troy (talking about causes of war, which are a result of patriarchy)when I mentioned she had been repeatedly kidnapped and raped PRIOR to the events related in the Illium, it shut a few mouths. Sad, but fun.

[MadrasT]

90. I certainly understand needing to step back

Whether it is temporary or permanent, I have enjoyed and appreciated your contributions and I will miss your voice here.

[Violet_Crumble]

113. I wish you weren't stepping down as host, redqueen...

I thought you were a great choice for the main host of this group, though I understand yr frustration....

[iverglas]

114. save me a place on the other side, will ya?

What a dive.

[Remember Me]

115. I too do not want to see you go

I have no idea what you're referring to, and maybe would be better off not knowing.

But I hope you'll stay. Maybe after a break or something.

[yardwork]

116. kick for historical record

[boston bean]

117. you're a peach.. thanks so much

good work!

[yardwork]

118. You're welcome!