How do feminists present themselves? Can we discuss a minimum standard for discourse?

[Tumbulu]

I have worked very hard all of my adult life to present myself as willing to learn, anxious to work and never imply that I should get an easier load because I am pretty or silly or cannot do hard things myself. Whenever I left a job it would take two or three full time people to replace me.

I farm, breed plants and animals organically and have my own business. I often need help - for which I employ people part time these days, but used to have full time employees. But I really am troubled by the little "i'm just a silly girl" act, or "I'm so beautiful, you need to help me" act. Or "I'm so sexy, you need to do everything for me" act.

Behaving as if one is not fully functional goes against my view of feminism.

I do not accept little sayings that imply that thinking and or writing or anything for that matter are just too hard for a woman. In fact things like this send me loopy. Am I over the top?

What do others think?

[REP]

1. I get mistaken for a guy online all the time. I have no idea why.

In real life, not much chance of that happening - not because I'm afraid to lift anything heavier than a teacup but rather my build. Despite having arthritis in my shoulders severe enough to need to have a full joint replacement on one and part of my clavicle removed on the other (along with an elbow replacement), I still heave my own cartons of bottled water into my cart at the store and other 'unladylike' things. I've never understood why anyone would want to play the 'poor dumb me' game, but I do understand that a lot of women were taught that as children - and that game still works. I can't really blame those who do; they're victims of it - but I do find it annoying as hell!

[justiceischeap]

2. I think it's immaturity and also a sense of entitlement

I recently read an article that talks about how narcissism is effecting young women now. Narcissism was often a behavior that usually only effected men but some women are developing the behavior now. I blame it on the Paris Hilton's of the world that are famous only because they're pretty and rich. I think reality tv plays into it a lot as well. Of course, you can argue that everyone wants to feel special and these women you're referring use manipulation to make themselves feel special. It's annoying and sad at the same time.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Transcending beyond our images that have been defined for us by others.

To be as fully informed about society, especially economics and government (local, regional, state, national, and international) as possible. To be articulate when making a statement (say what you mean and mean what you say). To be confident and empowered, not defensive. To define ourselves, not let anyone define us. Not be afraid to lead when necessary or desired. And especially not letting male legislators make personal decisions on our behalf.

[kdmorris]

4. I absolutely reject that woman can't think

I think that's a core part of my feminism. In high school, I do remember trying to "dumb it down" because boys felt threatened by smart girls. Yet, even remembering how I felt, it still troubles me when young girls today do it.

I have grown up a lot in the last 30 years and now I find myself troubled by the labels people put on me. At work, if I am as confident as a man, I'm a "bitch". If I cry, I'm hormonal. If I don't cry, I'm "cold as ice". I find myself fighting others' interpretations of my actions more than acting in a certain way.

At my previous job, there were a lot of layoffs. We have a male and a female director of IT. The male director was laid off (I'm assuming because the female made less money so they saved more by sending him off). The female was forced to convene the whole IT group and gave the news to us. She didn't cry, though I knew her well enough to know that she was sad about what had happened.

The number of times after that I heard that she was an "ice queen" because she didn't cry couldn't be counted on both hands. If she had been the one laid off, NO ONE would have even mentioned that the male didn't cry.

Men and women are absolutely equal when it comes to brain power. It's only what we choose to do with it that makes me loopy. Like you, I become frustrated when I see women doing the "I'm just a silly girl" act, even though I realize that, in a lot of cases, it's a defense mechanism to how awful high school is. Some of us never seem to outgrow high school.

FWIW - high school was brutal for me. Even after trying to "dumb it down" so that boys wouldn't be afraid of me, it didn't work. I never did have a boy friend in high school (I'm 6' tall - and was in 9th grade -and was kind of shy then. I scored in the 99th percentile on standard tests and always got the extra credit questions right in my honors classes) because no matter what I did, I think it looked forced. I got straight A's and spent most of my time in the library when others were talking about the homecoming float. I was labeled a "geek" but even the geeks didn't like me, so I was basically a loner.

I think that it helped me to get over it that it didn't work. I'm not sure how I would have turned out if my attempts to seem less smart had actually worked.

[MineralMan]

5. Not all boys and men have a problem with

intelligent girls and women. I know that it can seem that way, but there are always some who find intelligence to be very attractive. I'm one of them. In high school, I was always attracted to the "geek" girls. The smarter the better. Of course, I was a geek myself, but throughout my life, it has been the obviously intelligent women who seemed the most attractive to me. I found that I could have a great conversation and intelligence often also comes with a spirit of adventure and excitement with learning new things. All of that makes intelligent women the most interesting women and, in the long run, it is being interesting that really matters as relationships grow.

High school can be tough, but there are always people you can connect with, somewhere in the crowd. Sometimes, we just don't see them. I'm guessing that I would have been drawn to you if we had attended high school at the same time and same place.

[kdmorris]

7. I know not all do

I never found anyone in my redneck, backwards town that found it to be charming though

(My husband doesn't have a problem with intelligence, though it still irritates me just a little that he scored 5 pts higher on his IQ test than I did LOL. I love that we can talk about things and I don't have to explain what obfuscate means We've been married for almost 15 years)

[yardwork]

9. That's one of the saddest parts, as well as one of the avenues for hope.

Many men want women to be self-confident and independent. Unfortunately, some women have fears and deliberately act less confident and less capable because they think that it's the way women are supposed to act, or they think it will be charming, or that it will help them get ahead. The media certainly impose a lot of stereotypes that are not healthy for girls and women to follow.

Women do it to one another, too. Even professional women sometimes encourage other women to value themselves for aspects other than professionalism and competence.

Men are crucially important in helping our society move past this. The ways in which fathers treat their daughters, husbands treat their wives, male bosses treat their female employees - there are millions of opportunities for men to show women that they will be valued for being intelligent, strong, self-confident, and competent.

[MineralMan]

12. You're right. It's up to everyone

to encourage women to be exactly who they are, rather than what they think people expect of them.

I've been lucky that all my relationships with women have been with women who were at least as smart as I was and not afraid to be who they were. In fact, those are the people who I was always attracted to, starting even in high school. My first serious girlfriend in high school beat me out as valedictorian of our class. I learned early that smart people are the most interesting people, whatever their gender. It's a lesson that I'm glad to have learned.

My wife of 20 years and my former wife are both very bright, self-assured people. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[yardwork]

16. That's clearly reflected in the way that you relate to people here on DU.

[no_hypocrisy]

6. Derision for being intelligent while female.

In 1992 while enrolled in the last year at New York Law School, I was the only one in the class could answer an esoteric question on three different occasions. Nobody even raised a hand. And each time when the professor recognized I was correct, I heard a male chorus in back of me give an audible, derisive "Ooooooooooooooooooooh . . . "

My background is a liberal arts women's college and this phenomenon was foreign to me. My guess was it meant "Welcome to the mysognistic world of law."

Fortunately I haven't had any sexist discrimination during my tenure in court, at least to my face. I won't put up with it.

[yardwork]

10. That is a great story. You didn't let them stop you, and now you are in a position of authority.

Thank you.

[gkhouston]

8. I never wasted any time "dumbing it down". To me, pretending to be someone I wasn't

seemed like a losing proposition--I wouldn't be happy doing it and people would figure out what I was really like sooner or later, anyway. I figured that anyone who wouldn't/couldn't like me for the person I was wasn't anyone I wanted to waste my time on, anyway.

Although I never played dumb, I have practiced "selective silence", although I've only done that in certain situations as an adult. I'm a techie type but also happen to be a pretty decent singer. While I was serving ten to life in graduate school, I sang in a small audition-only ensemble. Most of the other people in the group were master's students in vocal performance, so a crop of them would wash in and out every two years. When a new batch would come in, I was careful not to volunteer that I was working on a Ph.D. in a tech discipline for the first month or so. I noticed that once people had sung with me for multiple rehearsals, I didn't get that "oh" reaction when people found out what I did. That's not entirely gender-specific, though. My husband's also got a Ph.D., and that's not a piece of information he volunteers about himself when meeting people in a non-technical setting, either.

I remember the "smart girls don't get dates/husbands" being very prevalent when I was in middle and high school. At the time, I believed it was probably true but couldn't see myself saddled to someone stupid or shallow. Now that I actually am overeducated, I can't think of any female PhDs I've known who aren't/haven't been married, including one lesbian who came out after her divorce.

[kdmorris]

13. I probably would have saved myself a lot of heartache in HS

if I had done the same. As it was, I think everyone just thought I was weird, which led to me reading every book in the library during my four years there - it was my hiding place

[Catherina]

11. You're not over the top. I'm with you

Few things annoy me more than the thinking that "thinking and or writing or anything for that matter are just too hard for a woman" and women who play up to that by acting dumb like that when it suits them.

the little "i'm just a silly girl" act, or "I'm so beautiful, you need to help me" act. Or "I'm so sexy, you need to do everything for me" act make me want to hurl.

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. The 'acts' you describe have always struck me as a game.

I tried the "but I'm just a girl" with my Husband once. Something I needed to do while he was at work one weekend and I tried to get out of it. He laughed at me.

To me, it all boils down to respect. My respect for myself and my respect for others. If I am not *me* then I am showing disrespect both for myself and others by involving them in the game.

[gkhouston]

17. I wouldn't even know how to play the "but I'm just a girl" card with my husband.

Ask him to fix the plumbing? Oh, hell no. He's an intelligent man but not clever with his hands.

[Tumbulu]

15. Thanks everyone for the discussion

It appears as though I am not alone in my reaction.

Where do we go from here? Can we ask our hosts to look into adding something into the SOP about these sorts of demeaning expressions? Perhaps they are written in jest- do not know- but I am not amused.