Ventilator running in CPAP mode - Can a CPAP or BiPAP be used

[BrightKnight]

I have noticed news footage of ventilators treating patients in CPAP mode. Is it possible to use a less scarce CPAP or BiPAP resource in some cases?

Many collect tidal flow data and work with oxygen. After market modifications of a off the shelf machine might be a lot more possible than buying thousands of full ventilators.

[Raven123]

1. Heard that question asked on a televised broadcast. The answer was "no."

I can’t remember the explanation

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

2. Drat! I have a CPAP with a full face mask.

I was wondering the same thing. No matter what they say, if there aren't any respirators available, I'm going to dig it out of the closet and power it up.

I've got a friend who used to work at a local company that manufactures respirators. I wonder if he snuck one or two home before he retired?

[SDANation]

3. Depends on how sick the patient is

If it’s simple airway support with minimal oxygen supplementation, CPAP could work. But if the patient is struggling to breath or alkalotic, BIPAP is necessary and if the patient still struggles, intubation is required

[broiles]

4. When my husband was in the hospital last month

He took his C-pap with him. He had low blood oxygen. They added a valve to the C-pap to use oxygen with it and it worked. I've order an oxygen source to use with it in case of an emergency.

[mitch96]

5. CPAP stands for "continuous positive airway pressure."

It's always passing air. A respirator breaths for you ....... in and out. I'm assuming it can't be used b/c it wont stop to let you breath out. Just my guess...YMMV
m

[BrightKnight]

6. Well, ventilators operate in non invasive CPAP mode too.

The air pressure keeps the airway open. A BiPAP machine reduces the pressure when you exhale.

If you need a machine to breathe for you then I am sure that a ventilator is required.

I was just wondering if a much less scarce CPAP, APAP, or BiPAP could be used or modified for use on the lower end of the spectrum.


I suspect that the problem has to do with easily modifying settings and viewing the data in real time to make rapid decisions. I believe that the higher end machines collect the data and can display it in real time with an attached laptop. It is not ideal and it is probably not FDA approved for the purpose. I don’t know if it would work.

[mitch96]

7. From what I've read there are some "obsolete" vent's that can still be used...

I mean a functioning model T can still get you from here to there... Modern? no.
Transportation? yes.. If you catch my drift.. Now where are those "obsolete" vent's?
Normally the old stuff is sold to third world countries...
m

[fleabiscuit]

10. Modern cpap machines will automatically ramp down exhale pressure.

They are exponentially more comfortable than the old Hoover’s. 😀

[Sovmattis]

8. Sorry to bump an old thread.

As I have experienced, and from the few studies I have read, the effects with BiPAP is quite uncertain for patients with ARDS, though I never have treated Covid-patients before. This is of course for those patients that doesn't require intubation, but with BiPAP modes, I suspect the RR is too high for the bi-level modes to be useful. My experiences are that the patients (and staff) gets too much disturbance from the machines alarms for high respiratory rate, and since the effect on tidal volumes might be so small at that point, maybe the doctor will use CPAP mode for higher comfort and compliance for a sick patient.

The critical thing for us in the staff is rather that vented masks is dangerous though it spreads the virus more extensively with CPAP/BiPAP, so you have to use a non-vented mask with filter and a swivel instead.


(Sorry for bad english, I hope you understand what you mean, I'm swedish)

[marble falls]

9. Nothing wrong with your English that isn't wrong with ours! I wondered about how ...

difficult it was to match the machine with two patients with rates that would be variable because they both were fairly unstable by the fact they were this sick and in emergency circumstances.

I welcome your knowledge and experience to DU!

This was not an 'old' thread by any means!

[BrightKnight]

11. There may be medical professionals here that can answer that properly

I am far from qualified to answer that but I had a few thoughts.

Standard home CPAP masks just have vent holes because it is cheap and nothing else is required. Adding a vent tube and filter would be a very simple solution. I am sure there are off the shelf solutions. APNEA patients with infectious diseases have to be treated in hospitals.

An Italian doctor treating Covid 19 patients said that CPAP/BPAP machines were effective on Sky News. I do not know the details.

Some advanced BiPAP machines used in hospitals can be easily converted to a full invasive ventilator. I think they only work in pressure mode but they can control PEEP, flow etc.. IDK, There is only 20% survival with the best equipment. I wouldn’t want a 2nd rate solution used on me if I had a choice.

I read that ARDS is normally treated with high PEEP and flow. I think that that some COVID 19 patients have more compliant lungs. I have no idea how medical professionals are using ventilators to treat Covid patients. You would probably want to post that in a medical forum.

[BrightKnight]

12. Per Sky News - Coronavirus: Hospital cuts COVID-19 death rates with 'black boxes' for sleep disorder

They just posted this today.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-hospital-cuts-covid-19-death-rates-with-black-boxes-for-sleep-disorder-11977789

It looks like the UK NHS is getting good results treating with off modified off the shelf CPAP machines. Apparently they can keep very sick patients off ventilators.

It just looks like an off the shelf Resmed CPAP machine. It does not say how it was modified.

[Sovmattis]

13. That was a very good link really. Thanks.

Oh no, I think they are using a ventilated mask on her!!!! That's really dangerous. (The right mask, with the blue "nose" is for nonvented use, and what should be used)
And you are right, it looks like a ordinary CPAP-machine. I wonder if it is that simple that they have two different settings on those machines.