Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumFather of 6-year-old Sandy Hook victim hopes to bring unique lawsuit against AR-15 makers
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/sandy-hook-victim-dad-hopes-viable-suit-ar-15-maker-article-1.3686471?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_farkNot a day goes by that Ian Hockley doesnt think about the death of his son Dylan.
The 6-year-old boy was gunned down five years ago by deranged mass shooter Adam Lanza. He was among the 26 children and adults whom the 20-year-old Lanza killed during his Dec. 14, 2012, rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.
Dylan is dead every day, and his mother and his brother Jake and I live with that, Hockley said.
The boys death left an unfillable void in Hockley but it also gave him a purpose.
(Rest at link)
I feel for all the families of the Sandy Hook shooting victims, but this lawsuit is very likely doomed to fail. And the gun ban groups that continually push these grieving families to file these nuisance lawsuits will walk away once the judgement to pay the Remington's legal fees comes down.
mountain grammy
(27,343 posts)Interesting..I hope he prevails, though Im doubtful.
Should be Americas motto, Negligent entrustment
COLGATE4
(14,840 posts)MichMary
(1,714 posts)Just wondering if this would apply, since the owner was actually his mother.
sarisataka
(21,221 posts)The person who committed the crime is not the person who purchased the rifle. That negates all of the points about marketing targets and entrustment since it was not entrusted to him.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,961 posts)bringing this song up in my head. I'm an old softie. I can't watch it without crying.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Just did a google for "AR15 ads".
Vast majority are military themed followed by semi clothed women. One ad about rancher/outdoorsman but even that one cites the M16/military pedigree. Not a single ad about any sporting use.
Makes the claim of " modern sporting rifle" ring hollow.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Which brings up a question for those who think this lawsuit is a good idea:
What sort of support, aside from fine words on the Internet, are *you* giving this family?
Alea
(706 posts)Google sorts by popularity and clicks and these were at the top of page 1
Where are all these semi clothed women you speak of?
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Than "sporting" ads.
Alea
(706 posts)There's 45 ads in that pic and 1 that could maybe be considered a scantly clad woman. No "Vast Majority".
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Deflect much?
Alea
(706 posts)Grasp at straws much?
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)Alea
(706 posts)Isn't it nice that people can actually discuss differing opinions in this Group without getting banned from the Group, whereas in the Lower Gungeon, not echoing with the chamber gets one immediately banned from the group? What's that list up to now... 90 or so?
Marengo
(3,477 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,593 posts)'If you want this military looking rifle that so many mass shooters want, there must be something wrong you. If there's something wrong with you, then you shouldn't have a rifle.' Am I getting close?
I still prefer Yossarian's version: "Ok, let me see if I've got this straight. In order to be grounded, I've got to be crazy. And I must be crazy to keep flying. But if I ask to be grounded, that means I'm not crazy anymore, and I have to keep flying."
krispos42
(49,445 posts)After all, that's what you want for self-defense, right? As opposed to a "sporting" or "hunting" gun.
The thing is, "tactical" looks and features are here to stay. There are broad applications of "tactical" features that bleed over to sporting and hunting guns, even bolt-action and pump-action guns.
Even if all semi-auto rifles were banned, pretty quickly pump-action rifles sporting the same tactical features would fill the void. Red-dot sights, foregrips with lots of space to add accessories, gun-mounted flashlights and lasers, matte-black finishes, camo finishes, protruding pistol grips, folding/telescoping buttstocks, fancy slings, bipods, etc., would all be available on whatever replaces the semi-auto AR-15.
You might get more luck googling for the AR-10. They're in a more potent chambering than the AR-15 platform can handle.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)argument?
Must be because it bears no relationship to the OP.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)flamin lib
(14,559 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)With the migration of Americans to urban areas and associated suburbs the intended purposes for guns have shifted. A century ago a lot of guns purchased were either for hunting or self-defense, and a fair number were dual-purpose; the lever-action rifle, for example, had enough power to take medium-sized game at 100 yards or more but was also handy enough and reloaded fast enough to make a credible self-defense gun against both humans and animal predators. A 12-gauge pump shotgun could take a bird on the wing at 40 yards or dump a load of buckshot into a deer, or an intruder.
Now, self-defense is a much larger reason for buying a gun. For example, nearly every semiautomatic pistol sold is optimized for tactical use and would make a pretty mediocre hunting gun. In fact, only a couple of types of pistol ammo are powerful enough to be legal for taking deer, none of which are the usual and typical semiauto pistol chamberings.
Therefore, Glock, Smith & Wesson, Walther, Ruger, Springfield Armory, CZ, Heckler & Koch, Rock River Arms, Kimber, Taurus, Kel-Tec, Beretta, Kahr, Sig-Sauer, etc., are not going to marketing their latest 9mm or .45 for hunting. No, it's going to promoted for either law-enforcement/private security markets or the individual personal-protection market. There aren't going to be pastoral scenes with hunting buddies have a good time in the wild; it's going to be in grim self-defense situations taking place in urban or suburban areas.
Same goes for rifles and shotguns. While obviously a lot of rifles and shotguns are optimized for hunting use and marketed as such, a similar amount (or perhaps more) are optimized for self-defense/tactical use and, also, are marketed as such. Again, the lightweight bolt-action rifle intended for people that go hunting deer in mountains is going to have a markedly different advertising campaign from the lightweight semi-automatic rifle intended for self-protection in the home.
Further blurring the lines is the fact that the addition or subtraction of a few accessories can convert a semiautomatic rifle from one purpose to another. For example, let's say I have an AR-15 chambered in .223. And let's say that I normally keep it set up for self-defense. I keep it loaded with tactical ammunition, I have a red-dot sight on top, and I have a powerful flashlight attached under the barrel.
Now I'm going varmint hunting out in my fields, or whatever. Okay, so I strip off the flashlight, swap the red-dot sight with a nice 3-9 power variable-zoom hunting scope, attach a bipod, and throw some hunting ammunition in a magazine. Now I've a setup I can use to very effectively shoot prairie dogs, coyotes, gophers, hares, etc. All I needed to do was invest in a second scope and a bipod.
Second example: Let's say I have an AR-15, but instead of the normal .223 Remington I have it chambered in .450 Bushmaster. Instead of a small fast bullet it shoots a big, slow one. It's much more powerful but the slowness of the bullet means it drops like a brick, limiting me to maybe 200 yards. A red-dot sight and a barrel-mounted flashlight makes it effective for self-defense OR hunting feral hogs, and replacing the red-dot sight with a 2-7x variable-zoom scope means I can use it as a close-to-medium-range deer gun.
The beauty of the AR-15 is that it is a 2-piece design. The upper part and lower part of the receiver easily come apart and can be swapped, so it is a popular option to purchase several uppers in different calibers and simply swap them as needed. The optics and accessories stay attached to the upper, so I could have both a .223 upper and a .450 upper and simply swap them in a few seconds as needed.
Since keeping a gun around for self-defense is an every day need but a hunting a gun is used only a few times a year, a multi-use gun like the AR-15 will be predominantly marketed for self-defense even if the manufacturer makes hunting or marksmen optimized rifles.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)frankly your post is full of something that smells to high heaven.
The majority of ads for the AR are not about self defense. They are aggrandizing the military aspects of the design and use of the gun. Pictures of soldiers, police and an abundance of over-testeroned rhetoric. Ads not featuring heroes in camo refer to man cards being validated or show semi naked women, in effect saying "Our gun will make your dick hard!"
Gun makers market to the insecurity and self doubt of semi emasculated white men. Why else feature heroic military figures in camo and face paint with captions like "designed for them, made for you" and "the difference between winning and total domination"? These lines were taken verbatim from ads on the first page of my search.
Take your gunner apologies and NRA talking points about self defense and file them in the same bull's anus this last post came out of.
Now have the last word and declare victory, you bore me.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Yeah, of course they do that, just like Ford does for pickup trucks or DeWalt does for power tools. And don't forget the beer commercials!
But I understand where you're coming from. They play up the military angle, I think in part because it's macho and they fetishize the military. George Lakoff notes this is part of the conservative "strict father" model he wrote about in "What's the Matter With Kansas?"
Part of it too is that, since it's generally agreed that the military has decently high standards for their equipment, if the military is using it then the design is pretty good. And of course, when you're defending yourself with a rifle you're doing something awfully similar to what the military does in combat. The difference is that what you're doing will likely only last seconds, not multi-year tours like the Army.
There are numerous reasons why I don't own an AR-15 and probably won't, but that can be for another time.
The issue here, I think, is that the AR-15 is, in one aspect, just another gun. It's a launching device for bullets. Unless you beat somebody with it, the gun doesn't do the actual injury; the bullet it launches does.
The military, the police, and civilians have done work improving the AR-15 as a bullet-launching device. A lot of it is technical; what kind of coating to use on the mechanical parts, what kind of steel or aluminum to use, how to heat treat it. What kind of stock works better? How can we make the trigger pull smoother, or lighter, or both? Is the magazine release too big? Too small? Too smooth? Too rough?
Gas system... direct impingement or gas piston? Carbine length or mid-size? Without or without gas-adjustment?
There's certainly a lot more than that; I'm far from an expert on this issue. But what I'm getting at is that the metrics are too strong to ignore, and these are above and beyond being specific to the AR-15. A protruding pistol grip is generally more comfortable and secure than a traditional straight grip. And having two (front and back) can be even better.
Mounting a flashlight to your gun is just too good of an idea to not do.
A telescoping buttstock that quickly adjusts for different arm lengths and different thicknesses of clothing seems, nowadays at least, to be just basic common sense.
Red dot sights work better than iron sights; they're easier to see, don't' require as much in terms of sight alignment, and don't require your eyes to focus off the target.
These improvements have spread very widely throughout the world and across a variety of rifles and shotguns. In fact, they're now making small red-dot sights for ordinary pistols. You'll probably start seeing them on cops a lot more.
The metric is speed and accuracy. OF COURSE people want to get their sights on target faster, whether your hunting a running deer, shooting clays, or facing down an adversary. OF COURSE people want to put their bullets where they are aiming. And these kinds of improvements and developments are making a difference.
So yeah, the military is going to adopt them. And the police. And Joe Schmoe down the street. Because that's what progress is... continual improvements.
What you're complaining about is that CONCEPTS (not technology) is migrating from the police/military world into the civilian world. You don't like it, you seem to want it to revert, somehow, and you fight what has been a largely lost cause on this.
And I understand it's intimidating and threatening. People that have guns for self defense are people that think and practice and plan for the circumstance of having to take a human life. And it's creepy because some of them REALLY TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Like, really seriously. Like, to the point where it seems they grow a desire to test the skills they've acquired and the planning they've done.
And the internet, like it has for everything else, makes this stuff more available and easy to find. And to find others that have a similar hobby. I think part of your concern is that you realize just how popular this is, something that 25 years ago you would be ignorant of because you didn't go to a gun store or read a gun magazine or have any friends to talk with about guns. Now it's everywhere, just like everything else.
But ultimately the intense concern over this has resulted in a backlash that is having the opposite effect of what you would like. Rifle and handgun sales under Obama skyrocketed because of his, and his party's, stance on guns. Trying to make tactical rifles unacceptable socially, if not legally, has led to soaring sales and more effort into R&D, as well as more accessories.
The only real, if incomplete solution, would be to ban semi-auto long guns. Of course, the market would respond in relatively short order with tactical pump-action rifles, with red dot sights and pistol grips and adjustable stocks and matte black finishes, but at least they would be manual action, not semi-automatic action.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...to make all Democrats die politically on their particular hill.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)oneshooter
(8,614 posts)The cost would be very high, as these weapons sell for 8-30,000 dollars. EACH.
Now if you are speaking about civilian owned AR and AK semi-auto clones, well they are not considered to be "military grade".
krispos42
(49,445 posts)As I've noted earlier, a lot of tactical features (assault features or military features, if you prefer) are simply design features that improve the handling of the gun to make it more effective (deadly, if you prefer) in the hands of a trained person. Better sights, better grips, better handling, better recoil absorption, better fit to individual body types, etc.
Going forward, these features are going to be on pretty much all rifles and shotguns with tactical use in mind, even if they are pump-action or lever-action guns instead of semi-automatics.
Behold the pump-action AR-15. Used the same accessories as a regular AR-15: trigger, stock, grip, mounting rails, trigger, magazines, sights, etc., but it's a pump-action.
Looking at this, are you relieved it's not a semi-automatic, or still unhappy because it's a tactical rifle?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Thanks for the picture of your beloved instrument of death, just makes my point.
P.S. Gunner porn on DU is laughed at.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...and will wear out many a keyboard proclaiming your disdain for guns and gun owners.
Straw Man
(6,782 posts)Using the FBI's definition of mass murder as four or more killings in a single event, there have been eight mass murders in Australia in the 20 years since the legislation was enacted. Those with the highest death tolls have been arson attacks.
In the 20 years prior to the legislation, there were 12 mass murder events, most of them shootings. Only one of them, the Port Arthur massacre, had a death toll higher than any of the subsequent arson attacks.
Among the "military" weapons the Australians banned was the humble pump shotgun. Any attempt at a similar ban in this country would be the best gift the Republican Party has ever been handed.
Straw Man
(6,782 posts)Thanks for the picture of your beloved instrument of death, just makes my point.
That is a pump-action rifle, not a semi-auto. It is still legal in Australia. For some odd reason, though, Australia bans -- or heavily restricts -- pump shotguns.
Technical details matter.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)Which is what my picture was of.
Nice of you to set up conditions where contrary evidence is "porn", but whatever.
My point still stands: I show you a picture of a tactical rifle that is not an "assault weapon" and you still call for it to be destroyed, after stating it's a WMB and an instrument of death.
Either appearance or intention are driving your opinions on this matter.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,593 posts)...I still think you can eradicate diabetes by banning spoons.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)I mean, really, who needs a spoon with more than 15 mL capacity?
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,593 posts)I mean that since the idea is to collect and move a large capacity of food, having them be elongated to possibly fit in a mouth while containing an excess of food seems unnecessary. Consider the effects on the folks seated next to or across from someone using a serving spoon to eat. The horror!
yagotme
(3,940 posts)I've seen serving spoons that were smaller...
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,593 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)...not an actual argument.
I suggest giving up on your losing cultural war- it's made you lot bitter, harms Democrats and enables
Republicans.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)Which aren't used (as far as I know) by any military organization, "made-for-war" weapons? They are semi-auto rifles, with a few bells and whistles, but semi-auto rifles nonetheless.
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)"Assault rifle", a name conjured up by Armalite.
Eta marketed and sold to the navy.
hack89
(39,180 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Last edited Thu Dec 28, 2017, 06:54 PM - Edit history (1)
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)2) All of which were fully automatic, unlike any of the guns that you or Alea found which are
thus not assault rifles...
3)...a term of art invented by the Germans in WWII, not Armalite.
Are your other posts of similar factual accuracy?
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Heres my favorite:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=199560
Im still astonished that he actually posted that morass of misinformation on a public forum.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)If YOU don't understand the internal mechanisms of assault weapons I suggest that you are too ignorant of the topic to have this discussion...
yagotme
(3,940 posts)AR=Armalite, not "Assault rifle".
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)The NRA is nothing but a lobbying group for weapons manufacturers posing as a group for gun owners.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Can report I was very pleased and likely to do so again.
no_hypocrisy
(49,044 posts)It will be the insurance market that will mandate owners buy and maintain liability coverage if they own a gun. Same concept as owning a car. Eventually there will be states that also require liability insurance.
Straw Man
(6,782 posts)... would not do what many seem to think it will. For starters, it would not compensate the victims of intentional illegal acts. Your car insurance will deny coverage if you intentionally run down a pedestrian. The same would apply to the illegal and intentional use of firearms.
Second, because firearms accidents are statistically rare, such insurance would not be prohibitively expensive. (Note the use of the word "prohibitively," as it is so close to the hearts of most vocal advocates of such insurance.)
Finally, mandating such insurance would be a boon to the coffers of the NRA, since they are currently a major purveyor of such insurance.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)If there's no gun registration, and I doubt there will ever be gun registration. I'm not even sure how liability insurance would work - won't cover criminal acts, so what is the purpose?
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)You know who would be the prime seller of such insurance? The NRA.
IOW, it wouldn't do what you think it would, would only make the NRA richer, and would be laughably cheap.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,593 posts)...is just another straw to grasped in the losing efforts by regulation happy gun haters.