Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad Addressing Social Justice and Gender

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

…...All mankind is from Adam and Eve. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.....

O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Treat your women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.

To read more:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/askamuslim/2018/10/last-sermon-of-prophet-muhammad-addressing-social-justice-and-gender/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Muslim&utm_content=49

[Voltaire2]

1. In which women are the property of men

but shouldn’t be mistreated as long as they behave themselves.

Another day another apologetics train wreck.

[guillaumeb]

2. I realize that posts such as this "ruin" this group for you and a few others.

But I do not follow the 11th Commandment, and thus it is not sinful for me.

[Major Nikon]

3. Are you kidding, who doesn't love a good train wreck?

[Mariana]

7. Muhammed doesn't consider women to be people.

"O People, it is true that you have certain rights over your women, but they also have rights over you."

[Voltaire2]

8. No he's a great feminist ally.

It is why women are empowered throughout the Islamic world.

[TwistOneUp]

30. Without trying to sound like an apologist...

Being female, I shun patriarchies. Ditto matriarchies. Gotta be a democratic merit-based system or I ain't playing. Having said that...

Yes, Muhammed *was* a firm believer in the patriarchy because he was part of it. We don't have to be that way now, and thank the universe we are Dems and not supporters of a patriarchy, and so we don't have a patriarchy! But to go back 1500 years and say that any one person - prophet or not - should have ended the patriarchical aspects of his entire civilization, of his society and of his belief system is putting a huge burden on that person. The inertia of their entire civ, as well as pressure he must have felt when establishing Islam was enormous.

What's more telling is that over the ensuing 1500 years, no one else has tried to change it. This is the result of conservatism. It's great if you're part of the ruling class. For the others, maybe not so much.

"It's good to be King!"
--Mel Brooks, Blazing Saddles

[Mariana]

32. ... over the ensuing 1500 years, no one else has tried to change it.

This is the result of religion.

[TwistOneUp]

34. Nolo Contendere. nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

4. You what would have a great topic for his last sermon?

Clearly identifying a successor.

Whoops.

[TwistOneUp]

31. Lol

Yes, that would have saved "just a few" lives...

[edhopper]

5. He also said to humanly treat slaves

Your slaves are your brothers. Allah has placed them in your hand, and he who has his brother under him should feed him with the same food he eats and clothe him with the same clothes he wears, and do not burden him beyond his capacity, and if you burden him then help him.

Very similar to how to treat women.

[guillaumeb]

24. You do know that slavery was quite common at that time.

And still is in the US, but we call it penal servitude.

[edhopper]

27. So is treating woman as second class

but we are talking about someone speaking for God.

So either he isn't and is a fraud,

or God is okay with the treatment of these people.

[guillaumeb]

28. We are talking of someone living in the 10th century,

speaking of how, in his view, God wants people to live.

[edhopper]

29. Isn't all of Islam based on

Mohammed speaking to God. Or was he as much a con artist as Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbard?

Just like Christianity is based on Jesus being divine

And Judiasm based on Moses bringing the word of God.

Was God not involved in any of this?

Did he actually interact with any of thse men?

[Mariana]

33. Moses brought the word of God

which, among other things, referred to women as property. For example, the 10th Commandment says:

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

So, the wives clearly are not considered "neighbors" here. Only free men are neighbors. Wives are the property of the neighbors, just like the neighbors' houses and livestock and slaves. As such, they are not to be coveted.

This consistency supports the idea that the god of Moses and the god of Mohammed are the same god.

[edhopper]

35. So either it's just

"that is what those times were like" and there was no God involved to act more decent

or God is a misogynist.


Of course Moses didn't exists, so either God did not exist either, or he allowed this stories to take root that reinforced a pro-slavery, anti-woman society.

[trotsky]

39. Why was slavery OK in the 10th century?

Alternatively, why was your god OK with it then?

[MineralMan]

40. Owning other people has never been OK.

Alternatively, there was no god, so people made up the rules they liked and codified their current practices.

The very simplest form of the reciprocity rule makes slavery wrong. It has always been wrong.

[Mariana]

6. What is your opinion of the content of your excerpt, Gil? nt.

[MineralMan]

9. Who can say?

Guy won't. It seems like he lets others speak for him, or something. That has always puzzled me.

[guillaumeb]

25. The prophet spoke of equality,

and tolerance for difference, in an age where both were lacking.

[marylandblue]

36. Actually, Arabia was fairly tolerant prior to Mohammed

Christians, pagans and Jews lived together in relative peace. Mecca was a pilgrimage center for all pagan deities. There was intertribal warfare, but these were small compared to the wars of conquest Mohammed started.

Arabia wasn't unified though. He wanted to unify it under one God, under his tribe, and put an end to pagan worship. That was his main focus. Jews and Christians were allowed to continue, but as second class citizens, as long as they didn't fight back.

[guillaumeb]

37. The comment about Arabia being tolerant is refuted rather well by history.

And your final comment about intolerance is decisively refuted by the actual quote.

[marylandblue]

38. Since this is well-refuted by history, surely you can provide many examples of such

Last edited Sat Oct 27, 2018, 07:18 PM - Edit history (1)

In particular explain how Mecca tolerantly went from a place of pilgrimage for the worship of every pagan god in Arabia to one where Allah could be worship and all the pagan artifacts destroyed. Also please explain how Mohammed tolerantly converted pagans as soon as his army showed up.

[MineralMan]

10. Muhammad Speaks: Treat Your Property Well.

Protect your investment!

[Mariana]

11. See, this kind of OP is what convinces me Gil is a troll.

Gil knows exactly what that passage says and exactly what it means. This one is just too obviously offensive for him to pretend otherwise. No way this is a genuine attempt at apologetics on his part. This was posted solely to stir shit.

[MineralMan]

12. I don't know. Sometimes, I think he just doesn't read

what he posts thoroughly. He seems to miss obvious things in many of the excerpts he posts here.

However, I wouldn't call him a troll. Just someone who isn't always careful about posting, perhaps.

[Major Nikon]

14. There's not enough doubt for that benefit

The motives are clear enough.

[MineralMan]

15. I'm being deliberately polite.

I do that sometimes.

[Major Nikon]

16. Admirable

But undeserved.

[MineralMan]

17. Perhaps, but still.

It's a strategy, I think.

[guillaumeb]

19. If this is an example of your politeness,

you really need a new dictionary.

[MineralMan]

20. I see. I have several already, thanks.

Still, thanks for taking the time to scold me.

[guillaumeb]

21. Perhaps you need help with them.

[MineralMan]

22. No, thanks.

You're very kind to offer, though. Really.

[guillaumeb]

23. Think nothing of it.

[MineralMan]

26. I will, thanks.

[Major Nikon]

13. As if the child rape apologia wasn't convincing enough

The general method is to post something obviously infammatory and then squeal incessantly with his 11th Commandment nonsense when someone calls bullshit.

What some will do for attention is kinda pathetic.

[NeoGreen]

18. Ditto...

...I have come to the same conclusion and the Major's point in regards to specific apologetic positions is well taken.

Trolls are not worth our time or attention.