Jesus died for your sins

[Major Nikon]

[guillaumeb]

1. More "insight".

Far too insightful for theists to understand.

But it does count as a post.

[The Genealogist]

19. It was probably a metaphor, anyway.

Or is this not one of those metaphors so common to the Bible?

[Major Nikon]

30. Evidently all the parts which make no sense are really metaphorical

Along with all the bigotry and hate. All that stuff also doesn't really say what you think it says.

Kinda convenient if you think about it. All the contradictions, nonsense about talking donkeys, people living to 900, and evil shit can be explained away just that easily, while the bible remains a perfect document. All it takes is a little "faith".

[AtheistCrusader]

61. Math is hard.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. But he didn't stay alive for very long, either.

He hung out with the disciples for forty days and then went to Heaven.

[Major Nikon]

3. According to those who claim to have special "insight" he's still alive and well

Mind you the only proof of their metaphysical claims are the warm fuzzy feelings they get when they engage in their delusion and those who take it to the next step by claiming the holy poltergeist whispers in their ear on a regular basis.

[guillaumeb]

8. This sounds like a general attack on theists. Calling theists delusional.

And theists are an important part of the Democratic coalition.

Some people simply cannot resist attack politics.

But we do have the inspiring ands tolerant example of China, where atheists are in charge.

[msongs]

11. illogical nt

[guillaumeb]

13. Denial?

. Some feel that any disagreement from their own beliefs is a sign of intellectual delusion.

[Major Nikon]

14. It's not all that illogical if you consider the benefit of pretending to be a victim

The problem is he's tried this before and never got much traction with it. Virtually everyone experiences delusion and/or manufactures self-delusions without a pathological diagnosis of being chronically delusional. Claiming one implies the other is delusional at best and duplicitous at worst.

You also have to consider the source is someone who frequently tries to paint themselves as a victim. The whole "11th commandment" shtick was quite the performance art piece. Unfortunately we don't see it as much anymore.

[MineralMan]

28. It is not an attack on theists at all.

It is a satirical look at a specific religion and its beliefs. Through satire, it points out the fundamental, metaphorical misunderstanding that is at the core of Christianity.

If one believes the story literally, then perhaps one believes something irrational. You claim to believe most of Christianity as a metaphorical thing, if I recall correctly. So, you seem to see that belief for what it is - a metaphor. Any close reading of the Gospels leads to the metaphor being created intentionally of sending down the "son" of God to be crucified as a metaphorical sacrifice to atone for humanity's inherent sinfulness. Even had the crucifixion been a real event, it would have been planned in advance, with that purpose in mind. The advance planning and the resurrection conflicts with the concept of any sacrifice occurring at all. That is what is being satirized in that meme.

However, for it to have been real, one would have to believe the Gospels in a literal sense, which you claim not to do. That is the internal mental conflict that raises doubts about the literality or even the reality of any of it.

Mistaking a metaphor for reality is somewhat of a delusion, it seems to me. As you put it:

"D'accord?"

[Major Nikon]

31. You just don't understand

If the anonymous authors actually were using all those metaphors that some random dude on the internet actually figured out thousands of years after everyone was taking it literally, then it really isn't delusional now is it? Of course that also means Christianity has been and still is a lie to billions of people, and they were the ones who were/are delusional.

Kinda funny how that all works. Then again, with metaphor all things are possible. It actually says that in the bible, metaphorically of course.

[trotsky]

35. Non-theists are an important part of the Democratic coalition, too.

Why do you continue to attack them vis-a-vis the actions of the Chinese government?

[guillaumeb]

43. Who ever said otherwise?

And my attacks on the leaders of the Chinese Government has nothing to do with this.

[trotsky]

46. I'm glad you can finally admit your posts about the Chinese government are a distraction.

About time.

[guillaumeb]

48. True to form on your part. eom

[trotsky]

49. Indeed, calling out your hypocrisy every single time.

Thanks for noticing!

[guillaumeb]

50. I am certain that you feel that is what you are doing. eom

[trotsky]

51. And I'm certain that you recognize it's what I am doing.

Otherwise you would simply ignore me, instead of continuing to attack and belittle.

Is this how Jesus wants you to act?

[Act_of_Reparation]

39. Sounds like privileged whinging.

Probably because it is privileged whinging.

[guillaumeb]

44. Says the US citizen.

And have you no privilege?

[Act_of_Reparation]

45. Less than you I'd wager.

[MineralMan]

53. Are you not also one such citizen? Do tell...

[trotsky]

54. He might only be a Canadian citizen.

Which of course confers no privilege whatsoever.

A certain prolific posting carpet used to do it all the time too. Make a comment noting religious privilege? How dare you, you're white and male!

[MineralMan]

55. Well, perhaps so. For some reason, I thought he

had US citizenship. I'd think Canadian citizenship would give one considerable privilege, really. Any time you wished, you could move across the border and escape the US permanently. If I had Canadian citizenship, I would certainly do so.

[Major Nikon]

59. Whatabout those other privileges?

[guillaumeb]

57. Do you have privilege?

Of course.

[MineralMan]

58. I never denied that.

In fact, I have written on DU about my many unearned privileges many times..

That is not an answer to my question, though.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. How many broken records CAN you play simultaneously?

You're going to fold space and time there buddy.

[applegrove]

4. He played the role of universal scapegoat so that humans would stop scapegoating

each other. That went well.

[underpants]

5. If I may I'd like to use this for one of my MEME threads

Oh and there's this

[Major Nikon]

7. ...

[tymorial]

6. While I understand your point and often enjoy your posts

The purpose wasnt to just die. It was also to suffer horribly. Resurrection didnt remove the pain and agony. Jesus was already dead and felt nothing. To equate crucifixion, starvation, dehydration, and being disemboweled to "sacrificing a weekend" is a pretty lame argument to make that resurrection negated the sacrifice.

[Major Nikon]

12. Betrays a much simpler explanation

Jesus was crucified for upsetting the apple cart and the martyrdom legend grew. The whole idea of "sacrifice" actually developed over the centuries that followed.

Speaking of lame arguments, even if you believe the convenient doctrine that it was a "sacrifice", what kind of sacrifice is it really if you know it's going to happen and you allegedly have the super powers necessary to miracle your way out of it and you know it won't be permanent? Kinda reduces the "sacrifice" to something significantly less than those made by ordinary people quite commonly without the benefit of being worshiped for thousands of years for the trouble. Giordano Bruno was burned alive when he could have avoided it completely by simply renouncing his work. Seems to be a far more significant sacrifice and without the conveniently unverifiable promise of reward at the end of it all.

[Mariana]

22. You speak as if no one else has ever suffered things like that.

And please don't exaggerate what he did suffer, according to the stories. The gospels agree that Jesus was on the cross for about six hours before he died. That isn't long enough to experience starvation. Dehydration, yes, because would have been bleeding, but when he complained of thirst he was given vinegar to drink. Also, the "disembowelment" happened after he was dead.

The Romans crucified a lot of people. All of them suffered horribly before they died, and all of them stayed dead. The only thing that makes Jesus's death unique, if the story is true, is that he came back to life.

[uriel1972]

32. to say that he experienced the full range of human suffering...

is also a bit of overreach too.

Not to mention, what kind of God needs to do this to their offspring? Some sick crap going on.

[dchill]

9. Evidence is sketchy.

[vlyons]

10. Assumes that Jesus was a real historic person,

and not a literary composite.

[Major Nikon]

15. Metaphorical Jesus has far more super powers

So there's that.

[czarjak]

16. But...

Donald Dumbass said he’s his humble servant. Ask him! Always on the straight and narrow way too.

[Major Nikon]

17. Some are more susceptible to charlatanism

When you believe in talking snakes and donkeys, a prophet who shits on gold toilets isn't all that much of a stretch.

[jmowreader]

21. That claim is pretty much an impeachable offense

There's nothing "humble" about Trump, and I kinda doubt that if there was a Jesus he'd want this guy to serve Him...let's see here...

1. "Thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me."
Trump is attempting to elevate himself to the level of a deity. So he fails this one.

2. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."
Nope.

3. "Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day."
Nope.

4. "Honor thy father and mother."
That he was shipped off to military school makes one think Trump was disrespectful to his parents.

5. "Thou shalt not murder."
HOW many children have died in his gulags?

6. "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
"I moved on her, and I failed. I'll admit it. I did try to fuck her. She was married. And I moved on her very heavily. I took her out furniture shopping. She wanted to get some furniture. I said, "I'll show you where they have some nice furniture." I took her out furniture—I moved on her like a bitch. But I couldn't get there. And she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, she's now got the big phony tits and everything. She's totally changed her look... And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything."

7. "Thou shalt not steal."
Trump has stolen so much from so many, the contractors in New York City pad their estimates so they get everything they're owed before Trump tries to screw them.

8. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."
You want we should start with the Central Park 5, the birther shit or his campaign promises?

9. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife."
There's not an attractive woman in America that Trump HASN'T coveted at one time or another.

10. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods."
And as with the rest of the Commandments, Trump does this too.

Tell me again, without using the words "Hillary" or "Obama," what the hell Christians see in this asshole.

[czarjak]

23. Justification for their hateful ignorance, period.

[The Genealogist]

18. Yes, but there was probably a bowl game or something that weekend. n/t

[Major Nikon]

20. Football is done by Easter

[edhopper]

24. I will defer to the great prophet

Patti Smith

"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine!"

[Pendrench]

25. Hi Major Nikon - Thank you for initiating this discussion.

As a theist (Christian/Catholic) I believe in the duality of Jesus - in that he was true god and true human (in all things except sin).

So as to his human nature, I believe that Jesus not only suffered physically from the beatings and crucifixion, but he also suffered with fear and doubt. Therefore, when I think about the story of the crucifixion, what stands out for me is the fact that his love for us was greater than his fear and his doubt (i.e., that his faith was misplaced and there would not be a resurrection). In the end, perhaps his resurrection was not so much a triumph over death, but a triumph over fear and doubt.

For those of us who believe, perhaps this is the lesson we should take from all this - that we should to try to conquer our own fears and doubts, and to strive to put the needs of others before our own comfort and desires. I know in many ways I still fail to do this...but I hope to change so that I don't turn away from those who are truly in need, just because it is inconvenient or difficult for me to do so.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on this.

Thank you again for posting/sharing!

Wishing you well and peace

Tim

[Major Nikon]

29. How can someone who is allegedly a deity have doubt?

I understand not even all Christians believe in the divinity of Christ as there’s no mention of it in the synoptic gospels. For those that do, the doubt angle seems difficult to reconcile.

[Pendrench]

33. Hi Major Nikon - Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comment.

As I mentioned, I believe that Jesus was both true god and a true human (in all things except sin).

So (based on that belief), as a true human, Jesus would also be susceptible to human emotions, including fear and doubt. As I see it, if Jesus was not subject to human suffering - whether it be physical or emotional - then his decision to accept his fate to sacrifice himself for others would be diminished.

I know that we do not agree on this, but I appreciate the opportunity to share and discuss this with you.

Thank you again - wishing you well and peace

Tim

[Major Nikon]

34. The question still stands unanswered

If you do believe he was/is omnipotent and capable of hocus pocus, how could there possibly be doubt and what was sacrificed other than a few hours of discomfort that he could have effortlessly opted out of anyway?

Follow-up question, why did he ask himself why he had forsaken himself?

[Pendrench]

37. Hi Major Nikon - Sorry for the delay responding (I was out most of yesterday and this morning)

As you mention in your question - I do believe that Jesus was/is omnipotent and capable of hocus pocus that would have mitigated his suffering...yet he chose to make himself fully human so that we could better relate to him (and he could relate to us) by experiencing both the joys of being human as well as the suffering that humans face. To that end, he chose to suffer as we all do (although to varying degrees) and ultimately death.

I also believe that this is why he asked himself why had he forsaken himself - to illustrate that his human nature did have fear and doubts (as we all do) so he showed how we - like him - can also reach out to the divine during our times of sorrow and pain.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on this - I know that we will never agree on topics such as this, but I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this with you.

In any event, thank you again!

Wishing you well and peace.

Tim

[Major Nikon]

38. So he was showing us that he could reach out to himself?

That makes no sense. Seems more sensical that he was never divine to begin. Not all sects of Christianity believe Jesus ever was divine, the reason being there's no support for it in the synoptic gospels.

[Pendrench]

40. Yes...that is another way of restating what I said.

If Jesus was true god and true human (as I believe) then his incarnate persona reached out to his divine persona when he prayed.

It is my belief that Jesus did so in order to establish his kinship with all humans (by sharing in our humanity) but did so without diminishing his divine nature.

So perhaps he expressed his human side when he lamented "Why have you forsaken me?" And showed his divine side when he says "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Just my take on this.

Thank you again - wishing you well and peace.

Tim

[Major Nikon]

41. Sounds like multiple personality disorder

[Pendrench]

42. Could be - definitely a possibility.

[Mariana]

47. The stories definitely portray Jesus as having fear and doubt.

He clearly did not want to be crucified. The part of the story that shows this most clearly is his interrogation, after he was arrested. When he was being questioned by Pilate, he confessed nothing. He evaded Pilate's questions and very carefully said nothing to incriminate himself - and he succeeded in this, since Pilate found no reason to execute him, and intended to let him go.

[Act_of_Reparation]

52. The stories also say nothing to incriminate Rome.

Which seems more the point.

[Voltaire2]

56. It was a bit dicey, after all at the time

the decisions were being made about which texts mattered and which beliefs were acceptable the Roman Emperor was running the council making the decisions. It hardly would have been politically wise to blame the Romans for murdering god.

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. Especially when one considers they'd just murdered god.

If they can nail the Messiah to a piece of wood without breaking a sweat, imagine what they could do to a bunch of mere mortals. Best not piss them off!

[Farmer-Rick]

26. Thanks jesus, for giving up a weekend.

Made me laugh.

You should post this on the Atheists & Agnostics Group. They would very much appreciate your logic.

[shanny]

27. Ha! I'm keeping that.

[edhopper]

36. What about the poor saps

strung up next to Jesus who didn't get the quick poison exit?
How long did they suffer.
So Jesus gets all this praise for suffering less than somebody who probably stole something so they could eat?

[DavidDvorkin]

63. Not even a weekend

Since he was an observant Jew, Friday evening through Saturday evening was a loss, anyway. So he only gave up Sunday morning.