Aboard Flights, Conflicts Over Seat Assignments and Religion

[Warren Stupidity]

Francesca Hogi, 40, had settled into her aisle seat for the flight from New York to London when the man assigned to the adjoining window seat arrived and refused to sit down. He said his religion prevented him from sitting beside a woman who was not his wife. Irritated but eager to get underway, she eventually agreed to move.

Laura Heywood, 42, had a similar experience while traveling from San Diego to London via New York. She was in a middle seat — her husband had the aisle — when the man with the window seat in the same row asked if the couple would switch positions. Ms. Heywood, offended by the notion that her sex made her an unacceptable seatmate, refused.

“I wasn’t rude, but I found the reason to be sexist, so I was direct,” she said.

A growing number of airline passengers, particularly on trips between the United States and Israel, are now sharing stories of conflicts between ultra-Orthodox Jewish men trying to follow their faith and women just hoping to sit down. Several flights from New York to Israel over the last year have been delayed or disrupted over the issue, and with social media spreading outrage and debate, the disputes have spawned a protest initiative, an online petition and a spoof safety video from a Jewish magazine suggesting a full-body safety vest (“Yes, it’s kosher!”) to protect ultra-Orthodox men from women seated next to them on airplanes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/us/aboard-flights-conflicts-over-seat-assignments-and-religion.html?_r=0

Just switch gender with race and consider how fucked up this is.

[trotsky]

1. Your commentary sentence is spot on.

Some racist KKK Christian asshole says he doesn't want to sit next to a black person, and no one on DU is going to defend that shit. But you'll get plenty of volunteers to step up and defend this particular example. "It's tradition! These are their sincerely-held beliefs!" Nauseating.

Ooh - or a vile comment made when a specific example of religious sex-segregation (and inequality) was posted, shoving women into a corner away from the men: "Beautiful!"

[skepticscott]

2. Or you'll have well known posters and hosts saying

"Why can't we just all get along and be accomodating??" No different, though, than arguing that the black person should give up their seat and move, to "accommodate" the white person who doesn't like that a black person can sit next to them. You would think people who call themselves liberals would be past this, but in the case of religion, defending "faith" comes before everything, including equality and decency.

Any excuse for people like that to defend religiously motivated sexism and bigotry.

[trotsky]

4. We should never "accomodate" sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.

That some think special exceptions need to be made for someone's religious beliefs? Well, didn't we just have an incident in Indiana about doing just that?

Strange bedfellows.

[skepticscott]

7. Apparently the best they can do

In that other room is to talk about "cooties".

How profound.

[trotsky]

8. Well, anything to avoid talking about the 600 pound gorilla in the room. n/t

[skepticscott]

18. Well, now they're in full-blown accommodationist mode

As expected. Arguing that imposed segregation of the planes because religious extremists might have an irrational snit is just fine. Arguing that turning a blind eye to blatant sexism and trying to do everything to avoid confronting and condemning it is the noblest solution. Presumably the same folks would be just fine if racist assholes were refusing to sit next to black passengers and the airlines moved all the blacks to the back, just to be "accommodating". After all, who would it hurt, as long as everyone got a seat? Separate but equal rides again.

[trotsky]

20. Indeed, what exactly is the difference?

Since airlines know everything about you, why can't they accommodate the Christian white supremacist? I mean, as long as no one is inconvenienced TOO much, what's wrong with making the black person move?

[skepticscott]

21. And according to some, it should be easy for the airlines to tell

if someone is "Ultra-Orthodox" just from their name. I mean, seriously...how looney is that? Not to mention the idea of creating a "woman-free" zone on the plane around anyone that sounds TOO Jewish.

Do the defenders of this kind of nonsense even realize how foolish they sound?

[trotsky]

22. By their NAME?!?

Wow, judge people much? Paragons of tolerance!

[bvf]

11. I'm just amazed that anybody

like the woman mentioned in the lede would put up with shit like this.

Let these asshole bullies fuck up enough airline schedules and travel plans for enough people, and see what difference that might make.

Update: They're still stuck on cooties over in the other room.

[Curmudgeoness]

12. It isn't amazing to me.

As a woman, I have seen so many fights to fight, and some just are not worth it. I would have moved too, for two reasons....first, I would just want to get to my destination, and second, I would never want to sit beside that asshole anyways. But I would have a lot to say about it, including that maybe the man with the problem shouldn't be flying but should be traveling on a camel.

[AlbertCat]

14. on a camel.

On an ass.

[bvf]

16. I get that.

But the asshole in question should have had a spotlight shone on him as publicly and immediately as possible, IMO.

Again though, I get your point. We all have to choose our battles.

[skepticscott]

17. Well, the fact is, the airlines have handled this terribly

If they are determined to "accommodate" sexism, it's the sexist bigot who should be moved, not the person who doesn't have a problem. Move the religious asshole to a row with all men, if they can find a man willing to move. If they can't, tell the bigot…"that's your seat…if you won't take your seat when we tell you to, you're in violation of federal law and we will remove you from the plane..choose now". And if it were me, and the airline personnel tried to pressure ME to move instead of him, I would say "If I were black and someone refused to sit next to me because he couldn't stand sitting next to a colored person, would you make me move?" I would make them absolutely ashamed even to have asked.

[Curmudgeoness]

23. Yes, that is how it should have been dealt with.

In fact, there are several ways to deal with this situation. I think that asking for a volunteer to change seats with the sexist could work, and if there are no volunteers, the sexist should be asked to immediately leave the plane. But another option could be like they did when they served meals, and the people who needed a Kosher diet had to request it when they bought the ticket....giving the airline time to deal with the special needs. Anyone with the requirement of being seated only with men should have to let the airline know ahead of time and the airline can assign a seat ahead of time based on the sex of the other passengers.

But I really love the comment that you would make if asked to move.

I just know that I only care about getting to my destination without problems, and although I would let it be known that the sexist was a piece of shit, I would be willing to just move so the plane could get me where I wanted to go. This religious bullshit is getting out of hand.

[skepticscott]

24. Unfortunately, when situations like this pop up without warning

The thing that you'll maybe wish you'd said in hindsight doesn't always immediately spring to mind at the time. And even if it does, it's never as easy to play the heavy in a real life situation as it is to envision it.

But on the other hand, when the airlines have plenty of time to decide how they're going to handle this, taking the (cowardly) path of least resistance, if it means accommodating bigotry and sexism (as the usual suspects over in Religion are advocating strongly), is not an admirable solution. Setting up an official system where people can request that women be kept away from them in seating is no better than allowing people to request that blacks or Middle Easterners (or any other racial/ethnic group they dislike) be seated somewhere else, and that only white, Christian Americans be assigned to their row. Would the airlines even attempt to do the latter?

[Curmudgeoness]

25. Are you telling me

that there are people here on DU who are advocating for sexist discrimination?

I haven't been over there in a while, but I am dumbstruck.

[skepticscott]

26. Yes, in fact some of the most

pompous and self-righteous posters here think that the airlines should flag passengers as "ultra Orthodox" based only on their names, and then create "woman-free" zones around them (presumably moving all of the women to the back of the plane, whether they wanted to be there or not).

Wish I could say I was shocked, but there are few lengths that the religionistas will not go to in defending and accommodating religious bigotry. This one is particularly ugly and distasteful, though...

[beam me up scottie]

13. But sexism isn't as bad as racism.

It's not just about faith, if christian white supremacists were insisting that poc were moved to accommodate them, they'd fall all over themselves to condemn it.

But because it's just silly wimmenfolk we're supposed to go along to get along.

Fuck that.

The misogynists can either stay home or charter their own flight.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Some people hold sincerely held racist beliefs. For the same reason.

If I owned the airline, the policy would be 'get the fuck off my plane.'.

[PeaceNikki]

9. mm hmmm. And I would DEFINITELY tell him to fuck off.

[mountain grammy]

6. Bibi voters, every last one of them.

[LiberalAndProud]

10. I just wonder why a man so superstitious would trust a plane to stay airborne.

Seems like all those men and women sitting together should make his god very very angry. Shouldn't that be terrifying, if you truly believe?

And I wonder by what right he takes advantage of modern technologies when his doctrine is so clearly mired in prehistoric bigotry.

[onager]

15. I wonder about the "modern technologies" part too.

But I've seen the same hypocrisy in every religion, all over the world.

Example - In Egypt a few years ago, Cairo's city govt. tried to crack down on the Turn-It-To-11 amplifiers of the city's 5,000 or so mosques.

The cacophony during Prayer Call was even embarassing some of the city's religious leaders. Prayers blasted from EVERYWHERE, all at once, with every microphone-holding muzzein trying to outdo every other one. And some of the prayer-callers were just not very good. (Good prayer-callers in Egypt are like rock stars. They sell CDs and earn lots of money for appearances at weddings and funerals.)

Anyway - Piety = Volume. Or so it seemed. So the city govt. and religious leaders decided to limit the number of muzzeins who could broadcast at the same time.

The muzzeins reacted just like some of our very own Fundie American Xians - they announced they would defy the govt. and openly break any such law. Because they earned Extra Merit in Paradise for sound-polluting the city with their braying...er, praying. And the govt. had no right to interfere with their religious practices.

Now as for aircraft, I have a standard response for anyone who asks me to pray with them before a flight: "We're sitting in a metal tube made of parts sourced from the lowest bidders. In a few minutes we will climb to 50,000 feet and travel (x),000 miles. So right now, I'm worried a lot more about physics than metaphysics."

[progressoid]

19. Surprisingly

only a few stupid posts in the GD version of this topic.