I think Hillary really won MI, PA, WI, and FL but the GOP counts the vote

[UCmeNdc]

It seems the GOP has become the Party that has all of the official vote counters. It looks like Hillary won these states but an organized effort was in place to hide votes and change vote totals. That is why the powers in charge are shutting down all of the recounts. The recounts are starting to expose the corruption.

[Control-Z]

1. I agree.

Said as much to my daughter an hour ago.

[Mike Nelson]

2. Don't know about...

...all, but that's true in FL. Probably WI, too, which would explain their recent voting history.

[UCmeNdc]

3. Some real changes have to be made in the vote counting procedures.

[lonestarnot]

4. I agree with you. Where is the leader uniting all of the anticipated backlash against Hair Twitler?

I think we are on the edge of it.

[diane in sf]

5. I agree, strategic election fraud in a number of swing states created this nightmare.

[2naSalit]

10. Exactly.

There have to be enough disgusted humans in this country to stop this madness before it gets truly ugly.

[Coyotl]

31. Surgically precise rigging required altering about 50,000 votes to make Trump win.

Once people realize this fact .....

Then this becomes understandable:

[Sancho]

6. Absolutely the case in Florida...and it's been that way since 2000.

[Dream Girl]

7. Agree, now what?

How do we fight back?

[Botany]

8. I think HRC won other states too.

Every newspaper in America came out against Trump, all the former Presidents came
out against Trump, Condi Rice and Colin Powell came out against Trump, the former
heads of the Joint Chiefs of Staff came out against Trump and he was the most flawed
candidate ever but he won?

This was a coup. The hack on DU should have been a big clue.

[Raster]

53. This was a coup. The hack on DU should have been a big clue.

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

[TheFrenchRazor]

65. very true; they hacked this website at will, but there are those here who trust the machines. nt

[Amishman]

9. No, the election wasn't stolen

Lets look at this from a logical perspective. You believe that the GOP is a hyper organized crime machine capable of simultaneously manipulating live data in tens of thousands of precincts to sway the election so perfectly that the faked numbers are internally consistent enough to fit an overall nationwide voter turnout pattern. They can do all this... and still get Donald Trump as their nominee??? If they were so good at rigging elections, their own primary would not have been hijacked by an orange skinned jackass of an outsider. If they were so good at rigging elections, we would be talking about President Elect Jeb Bush.

(or would they have allowed Eric Cantor be upset by a total unknown two years ago?)

If the republicans are manipulating vote totals in tens of thousands of precincts, why don't our observers catch anything? We have observers damn near everywhere. It is actually the republicans who have a reoccurring problem of not being able to get observers in key areas (see the fuss over Republican observers in Philly this past election).

If the republicans are stealing the election, why hasn't someone come forward? It would take many thousands of people to pull this off and exposing it would mean instant celebrity status, a spot in the history books, and likely wealth (book deal, paid speeches).

If the republicans are stealing the election, why aren't our party officials trying to blow the lid off it? Their inaction is as big a tell tale sign that there is no massive fraud as anything.

[Fast Walker 52]

11. Those are good points though they are not conclusive.

I suspect the main way they rigged it was by vote suppression-- the good old fashioned way.

Keep in mind the states where Trump won that were close and were expected to go to Hillary, were run by Repub governors. I'm sure they used a variety of means to manipulate the vote short of outright vote hacking.

But at the same time, it's hard to know in places where we can't recount, what really happened. No major fraud was uncovered in WI but how confident can we be about the vote in Michigan?

[Amishman]

13. suppression is an entirely different matter

Suppression could possibly have had an impact on the outcome, but that is not what is being tossed around. I am looking just at the accusations of fraud with vote totals themselves.

Michigan is an odd case, but I don't think we would like the results of a full hand recount there. They biggest question mark is the feed problems on ballot scanners which might have resulted in ballots being counted more than once. This seems to have happened in blue areas, so the primary potential irregularity in MI may very well have benefited our cause. Personally I am hoping they do not do a full recount as I don't want to give the republicans any ammunition. It would be a disaster if the only significant irregularity out of these recounts worked in Hillary's favor. And I think there is something to find, as some precincts in Oakland county reported freakish voter turnout numbers over 150% (and democrat heavy results).

[Fast Walker 52]

14. interesting, thanks... is Oakland county a blue area?

[MichMary]

18. Yes n/t

[uponit7771]

22. If even the POSSIBILITY exist then that's bad enough, I don't except the false bar that there

... is a need for "hard" evidence when the ... KNOWN... possibility exist.

Voter suppression is a part of the conversation on the stolen election

[mythology]

28. There's also possibility there really is a child sex ring

At the pizza place, that Obama really was born in Kenya, that we faked the moon landing.

Just because people want to believe something without any evidence doesn't actually mean it's worth wasting time on.

[former9thward]

35. The governor of Pennsylvania is a Democrat.

[Fast Walker 52]

37. true-- I keep forgetting that! They had a terrible Repub one for a while that stuck in my head

[OnionPatch]

47. I was just going to say that.

The Secretary of State is too, of course. They've only been in for two years and I have no idea what they've done, if anything, regarding voting rights. But they sure better get on that NOW so this crap won't happen there again in 2018 and 2020.

[Lurks Often]

16. Stop trying to use facts and logic!!!

That's not allowed in posts about why Clinton lost!

[uponit7771]

21. .. and ignore Comey, Voter suppression and Russia... 3 DOCUMENTED factors in this election cause

... it's easier to blame ourselves dammit !!!

[uponit7771]

20. False bar, it doesn't have to be "stolen" just influenced

[Coyotl]

23. NOT, tens of thousands of precincts. Votes are not counted at the precincts. Central tabiulators,

memory sticks, programming, these are what determine elections today, and a few primary Republican actors are the gatekeepers.

Your point would be valid if we hand counted and reported paper ballots at the precinct level.

It only takes a few people to pull this off surgically exactly where needed.

And once it is accomplished, there is no way to prove it, it is the perfect crime. Recounts count stuffed ballot boxes exactly the same.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

49. Votes normally are counted at precincts n/t

[Coyotl]

50. Some counties take uncounted ballots directly from the polling place to a central tabulator.

How the Votes are Counted on Election Day
What Happens to Your Ballot After the Polls Close?

As soon as the last voter has voted, the election judge at each polling place makes sure poll workers have sealed all of the ballot boxes and then sends the sealed ballot boxes to a central vote counting facility. This is usually a government office, like a city hall or county courthouse. Where computerized voting machines are used, the election judge will send the media on which the votes are recorded to the counting facility. The ballot boxes or computer media are usually transported to the counting facility by sworn law enforcement officers.

In other words, first we give the ballots to the local KKK leader ......

[SickOfTheOnePct]

61. Other than absentee/early voting

I've never seen that. Every election I've worked (Florida and Virginia) the ballots are counted at the precinct and the numbers called in. Once everything is counted and reported, the ballots are sealed in boxes and sent to the county elections office.

[DK504]

26. Would have less of a problem with

Jebbie.... The media dismissed him right off the bat. When they saw that the advertising $$$ rested on the reality show clown the Putin Puppet shredding the country they acted as if it was a cafeteria food fight.

I place this firmly on the media and Comey's shoulders.

[Abouttime]

30. They stole the election

Just like they did in 2000 & 2004.
We are dealing with truly evil people here,

[spin]

58. I disagree that the Republicans stole this election for this reason. ...

The Republican establishment was opposed to Trump as their Presidential candidate from the very beginning. Jeb Bush was their choice but Trump ran over him like a bulldozer.

The leadership of the Republican Party did everything they could to stop Trump before the Republican Convention and even after.

These Republicans were unable to stop Donald Trump’s nomination. But they’re trying again.
By Ed O'Keefe August 7

Activists who were unable to block Donald Trump's presidential nomination are trying again, this time petitioning the Republican National Committee to call an emergency meeting to strip him of the nod.

Just like the group's months-long fight to stop Trump at the party convention, this latest attempt is likely to be a mostly symbolic act of defiance. Even though Trump is trailing Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton in polls, an overwhelming majority of Republicans still support him, and top party leaders are rejecting calls to find a new standard-bearer with fewer than 100 days until Election Day.

And yet, the mere fact that party activists are trying yet again to rid the party of Trump reflects widespread apprehension and mounting opposition to the nominee among Republicans. Current and former GOP lawmakers, former government officials, and top-flight party consultants have said they're leaving the party or will vote for someone else, given Trump's recent wave of words and deeds that have insulted or worried military families, foreign policy experts, Muslims -- even mothers with young crying babies.

Some of the former leaders of the movement that tried using party convention rules to snatch away the nomination and install another candidate said Sunday that they're reaching out to members of the RNC, which includes three representatives from each state, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico and territories, asking that they sign a petition calling for an emergency meeting that would lead to Trump's ouster.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/08/07/these-republicans-failed-to-stop-donald-trumps-nomination-now-theyre-trying-again/?utm_term=.400f4795c9

Some elected Republicans and VIP Republicans even said that they would vote for Hillary rather than Trump.

For what it is worth my opinion is that this was a change election as both Republican and Democratic voters felt the people they elected and sent to Washington DC had sold out and represented Big Money rather than their voters. They reached the point where they felt it was time to give both the Republican and Democratic Party the finger and elect a flame throwing candidate who would burn the establishment down.

Trump just happened to run at exactly the right time for a totally politically incorrect asshole to win. In any normal election year he would have failed right at the start of the primary races.

[UCmeNdc]

44. Yes it is possible..... with computers yes it is possible

With the right data collected before the election.

[lapucelle]

52. Then how do you explain the exit polls?

Sorry, I'm not buying the Republican's "Nothing to see here. Move along." explanation.

Even the fact that Trump magically decided to visit Wisconsin and Michigan in the final days seems like a proactive attempt to fabricate a "reason" why he outperformed all the polls, including the highly reliable exit polls.

If there's one thing we learned from this election cycle it's that malicious hackers with sophisticated skills can do all sorts of things that a year ago would have sounded outlandish.

[Amishman]

55. bad sampling and bad projection

All poll data (including exit polls) is normalized against the modeled turnout for the election. This risk happens every time you take a sample and attempt to project it to a larger population. The same pollsters ran the exit polls and the pre-election polls. They almost certainly used the same models of the expected turnout.

The models assumed that turnout would be at least somewhat similar to 2008 and 2012. We now know that was wrong.

Interestingly enough, the poll that was most accurate in 2012 (The LA Times tracking poll) was the most accurate in 2016 as well; and has a distinctly different methodology.

The imagined parallel between the DNC and Podesta hacking and supposed voting machine hacking is absurd. Email systems are always connected to the internet and have a high volume of traffic. Voting machines are never connected to the internet, most have no external network capability at all. Some (like the ELECTronic machines used in PA) can't take software updates at all, even in person. To hack the voting machines, it would have taken a team of hundreds of operatives on the ground physically forcing access to tens of thousands of voting machines. Its just so very improbable.

[lapucelle]

57. I'm not imagining a parellel.

You're assuming that I'm drawing one.

And I'm still not buying the "nothing to see here" narrative.

It is, however, interesting to see so many instantaneous, detailed responses whose purpose it is to shut down the possibility and discussion of fraud.

[EL34x4]

63. Thanks for being the adult in the room.

At some point, we're going to have to come to terms with the fact that our candidate lost the electoral college, we failed to take back the senate, the house has become a longshot and we are getting annihilated in statehouses across the country. Yammering on about internet conspiracies of hacked machines or "Yay! We won the popular vote!" contributes absolutely nothing to a much-needed party post mortem and realistic plans for moving forward.

[TheFrenchRazor]

66. you don't have a clue whether the election results were accurate. nobody does; that's the problem.nt

[BeyondGeography]

12. You are assigning magical powers to the GOP

Every swing state had the same pattern from Florida to Wisconsin, even where Democrats run the show as in PA and VA (yes, HRC won it, but by 1.5 points because we turned out fewer voters than anticipated and Trump over performed). So were Tom Wolf and Terry MacAuliffe in on the deal?

[Coyotl]

24. There is nothing magical about computer programming.

And Democrats do not control every step in the election process nor every county elections board. They certainly do not control the secret computer code owned by the ultra-right voting machine companies.

[BeyondGeography]

25. Obama won 11 of 12 swing states, all by small margins, in 2012

Have their abilities to manipulate the secret code improved or did they just not care so much four years ago?

[Coyotl]

27. And were the exit polls off by 5-12% in those states? Or the pre-election polls? Blue shifted?

In fact, quite the opposite. The vote results are red shifted from the polling, just not enough. That sure changed this cycle, with over 12% part of the new "accepted" normal.

[BeyondGeography]

29. Romney's pre-election polls were way off, just like this year's loser

[lapucelle]

54. The exit polls weren't off in 2012, and the assumption

that this was done on a state level rather than a national or international level overlooks an important consideration.

During the primaries, Hillary consistently over-performed based her polling predictions and Trump consistently under-performed.

As for the loser, Sanders' polling was by and large accurate during the primary, with one notable exception.The one big surprise was Michigan.

[BeyondGeography]

56. Wow...tell Hillary

Quick. She really doesn't seem to be taking this nefarious scheme seriously enough. At the very least, President Kerry needs to tell her about these exit poll discrepancies.

[lapucelle]

59. I'm too busy telling fiery progressives that rally attendees don't necessarily

translate into primary votes.

And with that, you are ignored.

[BeyondGeography]

60. Lol...you sound familiar

[brush]

33. Voter suppression and election fraud, ever heard of them?

[BeyondGeography]

34. Yeah, heard of reality, too

Keep thinking every time we lose it was stolen. Except when Barack Obama ran. Somehow, we managed to win, then.

[brush]

36. Apparently you don't remember Rove's meltdown on TV in 2012 when he realized his theft attempt . . .

didn't work.

Don't think they didn't try in to steal it in '08 and '12.

The repugs haven't won without cheating since Daddy Bush won in '88.

[UCmeNdc]

45. Yes it is possible..... with computers yes it is possible

[RoccoR2]

15. If that is the case then we do not need to change our message or candidates

Just need better ballot security - Right ?

[Va Lefty]

17. Never understood why Dems didn't make electoral reform a bigger issue in 2008

I understand that a lot of election laws are state laws but there had to be something that could have been done on the National level.

[uponit7771]

19. Yes, why fight the recount !??! What do they have to lose

[Vinca]

32. Democrats never make a fuss so the GOP is emboldened to monkey with elections.

Trump might have legitimately won 1 or 2 of those states, but there's no way in hell he won all of them. We should blame Al Gore back in 2000. He threw in the towel in the name of holding hands and making nice. He shouldn't have because if the vote had been counted he would have been POTUS, Iraq wouldn't have happened and the country wouldn't have gone to hell.

[politicaljunkie41910]

40. I recall that the SCOTUS stopped the recount in 2000. How is that Gore's fault?

[Vinca]

41. Gore didn't fight. Dubya did.

[triron]

38. And probably North Carolina as well.

[BeyondGeography]

39. Then how come McCrory didn't get in on the deal?

[Bob41213]

43. I think it's always true that the loser thinks the winner cheated

When Trump thought he was going to lose, he screamed voter fraud....

[Joe941]

46. If we organize I think we can still win this election!

Keep on recounting - we can win those states!

[Tiggeroshii]

48. PA, and WI have Dem SOS'

FWIW

[liberal N proud]

51. Something strange happened for sure

[duffyduff]

62. I have no doubt she won all of those states.

It just makes no sense whatsoever Trump would carry those states.

[TheFrenchRazor]

64. all the more reason to ditch the EC and computer voting; failing that, secede. nt