Men's Group

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)

45. I think it's less a matter of direct gender-based discrimination, and more of ingrained cultural

Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:55 AM

Dec 2013

attitudes. Hence why you have more women using parental leave - and often falling behind, to varying degrees, in the workplace as a result. Though to simply call that individual choice seems overly simplistic, if not slightly disingenuous. Also the implicit expectation, albeit probably far less than 40-50 years ago, that marriage and children will be in most women's futures, and that women are still by and large expected to be their children's primary caregivers.

Which is why I feel that strongly encouraging more fathers to take paternity leave - partly via changes in attitudes, partly via incentives - could have a positive cultural impact on multiple fronts. Whether it actually shrinks the pay gap - though I think it likely would - is somewhat secondary.

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Can we have a discussion on this article? [View all] nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 OP

With that title? Are you sure a "civil" discussion is what is desired? Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #1

Honestly, yes. I have no real ulterior motive here. Just noting the problematic aspects of the MRM. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #2

Then why the provacative, disrepectful title? Why not the title of the article? Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #3

Men's Rights Movement. And I've now edited the OP for clarity. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #4

Fringe group. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #6

Their ideas do have influence, though, mainly but not exclusively on conservatives. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #7

Limited influence. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #9

I hope you're right. My point of view may not be quite as optimistic though. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #10

That's understandable. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #14

The idea of posting this article here is suspect Major Nikon Dec 2013 #19

This particular piece of legislation was written by a woman and a Democrat Major Nikon Dec 2013 #22

I think, rather than focusing on a movement, all cases must be argued based on individual merits Bonobo Dec 2013 #5

She's more balanced than most FRA/MRA's, I'll tell you that much. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #8

I'm not accusing you of either. Bonobo Dec 2013 #11

Not much, on that particular subject. But to me the article is less about custody cases per se nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #12

You do realize that the 2nd wave feminist movement was mostly white females, yes? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #25

Those are all legitimate issues. Which is why I wish more men's groups would actually *address* them nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #29

If the ratio in college were 80:20 women to men... lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #32

I wasn't referring specifically to college enrollment ratios. I see that as relatively minor nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #33

I'm not suggesting that fewer women should go to college. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #34

I can't disagree with that. And like I said, we can certainly help boys without hurting girls. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #35

This is exactly why gender parity should always be the goal Major Nikon Dec 2013 #37

There is some truth to that, but feminism is too large and complex to really have one "direction" nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #41

I'm speaking about mainstream feminism of the 60's through the 80's Major Nikon Dec 2013 #43

Okay, in that respect you have more of a point. But I still think you're oversimplifying a bit. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #44

I'm not saying NOW contradicted that particular statement Major Nikon Dec 2013 #46

Point taken. Though while there may be "two different feminist groups" there are many more than two nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #47

I'm pointing out that there was a major divergence in mainstream feminism ideology Major Nikon Dec 2013 #50

Gotcha. I agree with the general observation even if I may quibble with some interpretations of it. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #53

I think we can all agree Joel thakkar Dec 2013 #13

Lurking out here, I notice "fathers rights activist" is a generic expression Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #15

They're mostly political and social conservatives. Mostly white, but religion and social class I'm nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #16

Yes Joel thakkar Dec 2013 #17

The profiles are more detailed than the groups' names. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #18

"The SPLC has designated some men's rights organizations as hate groups" Upton Dec 2013 #23

Perhaps I was mistaken, then. As I said, if anything only the most extreme should be seen that way. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #27

That's an important point Bonobo Dec 2013 #20

Do you support equal rights for fathers? NT Bonobo Dec 2013 #21

Of course. But as I said, that's largely a red herring for some of these groups. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #26

Is a 2:3 deficit in college "an equality gain"? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #24

How about we teach everybody, at a young age, not to be violent to people they supposedly love, nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #28

Absolutely. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #30

I know the pay gap is one thing we've sort of agreed to disagree on, and that's fine. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #31

The Ledbetter Act was a return to the status quo which had existed for many years Major Nikon Dec 2013 #36

Or simply that said "public policy solutions" aren't complex enough to address the issue. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #38

How exactly does it suck for women any more than men? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #39

"Very little in Column B"? I don't really see how this issue is simple enough for such definitive nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #40

If you can point to a single pay gap study that contradicts this, please let me know Major Nikon Dec 2013 #42

I think it's less a matter of direct gender-based discrimination, and more of ingrained cultural nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #45

A mother staying at home vs a father staying at home is a choice Major Nikon Dec 2013 #48

That's why I was suggesting that parental leave shouldn't be implicitly stigmatized and punished nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #49

I'm a big fan of the welfare state of some European social democracies Major Nikon Dec 2013 #51

Which is one reason why, as I said, such a thing as "perfect equality" may not be possible or even nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #52

I'm not convinced it's a problem Major Nikon Dec 2013 #54

Understood. I'd just like to see more flexibility for new parents and less unreasonable demands nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #55

Solving the economic issues isn't really all that hard and is largely gender neutral Major Nikon Dec 2013 #56