Men's Group

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)

51. I'm a big fan of the welfare state of some European social democracies

Tue Dec 31, 2013, 02:11 AM

Dec 2013

I don't see parental leave as punishment. It's simply a matter of fufilling parental responsibilities and responsibilities usually require sacrifice. Even in the countries in which you refer there is career liability for taking time off for raising children, even when that time off is compensated. The gender pay gap in Sweden is about the same as the US, btw, and even far higher if you consider part time workers. About 1/3rd of Swedish women work part time vs about 1/10th of Swedish men.

http://www.thelocal.se/20121107/44276

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Can we have a discussion on this article? [View all] nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 OP

With that title? Are you sure a "civil" discussion is what is desired? Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #1

Honestly, yes. I have no real ulterior motive here. Just noting the problematic aspects of the MRM. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #2

Then why the provacative, disrepectful title? Why not the title of the article? Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #3

Men's Rights Movement. And I've now edited the OP for clarity. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #4

Fringe group. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #6

Their ideas do have influence, though, mainly but not exclusively on conservatives. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #7

Limited influence. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #9

I hope you're right. My point of view may not be quite as optimistic though. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #10

That's understandable. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #14

The idea of posting this article here is suspect Major Nikon Dec 2013 #19

This particular piece of legislation was written by a woman and a Democrat Major Nikon Dec 2013 #22

I think, rather than focusing on a movement, all cases must be argued based on individual merits Bonobo Dec 2013 #5

She's more balanced than most FRA/MRA's, I'll tell you that much. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #8

I'm not accusing you of either. Bonobo Dec 2013 #11

Not much, on that particular subject. But to me the article is less about custody cases per se nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #12

You do realize that the 2nd wave feminist movement was mostly white females, yes? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #25

Those are all legitimate issues. Which is why I wish more men's groups would actually *address* them nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #29

If the ratio in college were 80:20 women to men... lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #32

I wasn't referring specifically to college enrollment ratios. I see that as relatively minor nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #33

I'm not suggesting that fewer women should go to college. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #34

I can't disagree with that. And like I said, we can certainly help boys without hurting girls. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #35

This is exactly why gender parity should always be the goal Major Nikon Dec 2013 #37

There is some truth to that, but feminism is too large and complex to really have one "direction" nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #41

I'm speaking about mainstream feminism of the 60's through the 80's Major Nikon Dec 2013 #43

Okay, in that respect you have more of a point. But I still think you're oversimplifying a bit. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #44

I'm not saying NOW contradicted that particular statement Major Nikon Dec 2013 #46

Point taken. Though while there may be "two different feminist groups" there are many more than two nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #47

I'm pointing out that there was a major divergence in mainstream feminism ideology Major Nikon Dec 2013 #50

Gotcha. I agree with the general observation even if I may quibble with some interpretations of it. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #53

I think we can all agree Joel thakkar Dec 2013 #13

Lurking out here, I notice "fathers rights activist" is a generic expression Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #15

They're mostly political and social conservatives. Mostly white, but religion and social class I'm nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #16

Yes Joel thakkar Dec 2013 #17

The profiles are more detailed than the groups' names. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #18

"The SPLC has designated some men's rights organizations as hate groups" Upton Dec 2013 #23

Perhaps I was mistaken, then. As I said, if anything only the most extreme should be seen that way. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #27

That's an important point Bonobo Dec 2013 #20

Do you support equal rights for fathers? NT Bonobo Dec 2013 #21

Of course. But as I said, that's largely a red herring for some of these groups. n/t nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #26

Is a 2:3 deficit in college "an equality gain"? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #24

How about we teach everybody, at a young age, not to be violent to people they supposedly love, nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #28

Absolutely. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #30

I know the pay gap is one thing we've sort of agreed to disagree on, and that's fine. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #31

The Ledbetter Act was a return to the status quo which had existed for many years Major Nikon Dec 2013 #36

Or simply that said "public policy solutions" aren't complex enough to address the issue. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #38

How exactly does it suck for women any more than men? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #39

"Very little in Column B"? I don't really see how this issue is simple enough for such definitive nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #40

If you can point to a single pay gap study that contradicts this, please let me know Major Nikon Dec 2013 #42

I think it's less a matter of direct gender-based discrimination, and more of ingrained cultural nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #45

A mother staying at home vs a father staying at home is a choice Major Nikon Dec 2013 #48

That's why I was suggesting that parental leave shouldn't be implicitly stigmatized and punished nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #49

I'm a big fan of the welfare state of some European social democracies Major Nikon Dec 2013 #51

Which is one reason why, as I said, such a thing as "perfect equality" may not be possible or even nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #52

I'm not convinced it's a problem Major Nikon Dec 2013 #54

Understood. I'd just like to see more flexibility for new parents and less unreasonable demands nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #55

Solving the economic issues isn't really all that hard and is largely gender neutral Major Nikon Dec 2013 #56