Men's Group

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)

44. I disagree.

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 03:50 AM

Dec 2012

I mean, it is possible to get over-attached to labels, which are always subject to debate and interpretation, but I interpret "Feminism" to mean equality.

Women have not, historically, been equal to men in Western Civilization. Certainly things have improved, but for one I do not believe that we are 100% there, yet. Same with race relations in this country. Things have improved, but discrimination is still real. Still a problem.

I know many women in the corporate world. Things have gotten better but there is absolutely an old boys network still in place, in many areas. There is a glass ceiling. And pernicious assumptions and expectations, although it varies from company to company and situation to situation.

But that time is going away, and good riddance. I do believe we will eventually achieve as close to a genuine meritocracy in this country as the world has ever seen. But we're not there, yet.

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114 replies

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It's really only violence if it is man vs. woman. [View all] Bonobo Dec 2012 OP

I think you may be jumping to conclusions. ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #1

True, but it can also indicate bias by focusing on one exclusively or by ignoring others. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #2

Just peruse how little attention and sympathy he is getting compared to Rihanna. Bonobo Dec 2012 #3

The "why" is simple, but uncomfortable... TreasonousBastard Dec 2012 #4

Yes, and it results in the devaluation of men. Bonobo Dec 2012 #5

Poster is jumping to lots of conclusions, and admits that he'd never even heard of these people yardwork Dec 2012 #27

violence is violence fizzgig Dec 2012 #6

Indeed. Do you have any idea how much violence boys face every day? Bonobo Dec 2012 #7

That's a whole field of strawmen. Let's deconstruct this bit by bit, shall we. yardwork Dec 2012 #28

As a matter of fact, just today... Bonobo Dec 2012 #29

Link to what you claim happened on DU? I'm not interested in sketchy websites from the net. yardwork Dec 2012 #32

I'm sorry. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #8

S'okay old man. I understand. Bonobo Dec 2012 #9

Hey- I know who David Byrne is! Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #10

I agree. Bonobo Dec 2012 #11

Correct on both counts. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #12

I was more a "Decline of Western Civilization: The Metal Years" type. opiate69 Dec 2012 #13

Heh. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #15

You know what pisses me off? noamnety Dec 2012 #14

agreed La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #16

Exactly right. Exactly, exactly right. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #19

You seem to have completely misunderstood the poster's point. yardwork Dec 2012 #26

Does this link look like the kind of mindset that advocates for equality? Bonobo Dec 2012 #30

That's not a link to a post on DU. yardwork Dec 2012 #31

Post #17 below does spell out that issues of violence that affect boys Bonobo Dec 2012 #33

Post #17 does nothing of the sort. It doesn't mention HoF at all. yardwork Dec 2012 #35

OK, it was a lame link, but I am too busy to go hunting. Bonobo Dec 2012 #36

Wait... MadrasT Dec 2012 #48

I noticed that, too, and hoped that the poster didn't mean that the way it sounds. yardwork Dec 2012 #50

No, you both just read too much into it. Bonobo Dec 2012 #55

Well, I said that I hoped that I had misunderstood, and even followed up to say that I probably had. yardwork Dec 2012 #61

Thank you. nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #63

Are we trying to define.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #34

What? Who are these "feminists" you seem to think speak for every feminist? yardwork Dec 2012 #37

"Who call themselves feminists" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #42

LOL! You have a dispute with one person on DU. They don't speak for all feminists. yardwork Dec 2012 #46

So, help me understand... Upton Dec 2012 #51

Everybody on DU speaks only for themselves. yardwork Dec 2012 #52

And yet.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #53

Of course I expressed my opinion about the definition of feminism. This is a message board. yardwork Dec 2012 #58

Thank you for making that clear.. Upton Dec 2012 #54

I agree with you right up to the last phrase, and I lost you there. yardwork Dec 2012 #59

That is true enough. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #57

If I rec a post or a thread it means I agree with it. yardwork Dec 2012 #62

I've run feminist current through Norton..it's safe. Upton Dec 2012 #65

I've heard that Norton is not reliable. However, I'll check out the site and let you know. brb. yardwork Dec 2012 #68

Ok, I checked it out and I wasn't impressed. yardwork Dec 2012 #70

Good point. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #66

I think that all those things are unjust. yardwork Dec 2012 #67

Thanks, then you have more in common with me than you do with the author of feministcurrent. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #69

That is entirely possible. I just took a look at feministcurrent and was not impressed. yardwork Dec 2012 #71

I didn't misunderstand her point. She's the blind squirrel who has stumbled over the nut. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #40

Feminism means equality for everybody Confusious Dec 2012 #73

I think it does overall Major Nikon Dec 2012 #75

Why did you reply to my post and not the one above? Confusious Dec 2012 #80

Because I'm pretty sure Jeff will read my post regardless of where it is Major Nikon Dec 2012 #86

They seem to want privilege in exchange for alleged privilege Confusious Dec 2012 #87

The idea of privilege has it's place Major Nikon Dec 2012 #88

Three days of reading what? yardwork Dec 2012 #79

Reading about "todays" feminism Confusious Dec 2012 #81

What were you reading? yardwork Dec 2012 #82

Gospel: The difference in wages between men and women Confusious Dec 2012 #84

I disagree. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #44

If that were true, feminists would applaud the suggestion that pay was at or nearing parity. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #45

Pay is not close to equity. Overall, the gap in pay between men and women has not improved at all. yardwork Dec 2012 #47

You're wrong, and the sources which indicate otherwise are being intentionally dishonest. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #49

You're wrong Confusious Dec 2012 #74

There is a big pay gap, but that doesn't necessarily mean equality isn't nearer Major Nikon Dec 2012 #77

They seem to be intellectually dishonest on that one Major Nikon Dec 2012 #76

The act was a trivial (but necessary) tweak to a law that's been on the books since 1964. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #78

I think it was more than a tweak Major Nikon Dec 2012 #85

See, here's my problem with off-hand generalizations like "the culture of violence". Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #43

Why violent crime is decreasing noamnety Dec 2012 #56

Very interesting post. Thanks for that research and commentary. yardwork Dec 2012 #64

Lead, that's one I hadn't heard before. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #72

Oh nothing needs to change. Or so I'm told. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #60

Newsflash: Stupid old straw man still stupid, growing older. nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #83

women's groups focus on issues that affect women disproportionately La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #17

Cherry picking my post. Bonobo Dec 2012 #18

True. "Equality" is a head-fake. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #20

yes, it is about advocacy for equal rights and opportunities for women La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #21

It's not about equal rights. It's about advocacy. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #22

yeah. right. La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #23

q) what's Ann Romney's net worth? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #24

you're applying a group level phenomenon to one couple? La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #25

Yes. The group level phenomenon is that women control most of the wealth in this country. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #38

Do you have a link to back up that assertion? yardwork Dec 2012 #39

Here's one. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #41

it's interesting how men in our culture seem to do no advocacy to protect themselves against other.. bettyellen Dec 2012 #89

I started an OP about it. Does that count? nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #90

the title of this OP seems more resentful of women for not doing more? If society is not paying bettyellen Dec 2012 #91

That is a misread based on your own headspace. Bonobo Dec 2012 #92

you framed it as some sort of competition with women.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #93

Men have been shamed into not having a voice. Bonobo Dec 2012 #94

I agree, except that you actually did stir up this dustup by putting "men VS women" in the OP.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #95

I think the "men really suck" line is ultimately not going to get us anywhere. Bonobo Dec 2012 #96

whoa whoa whoa, no one said men suck, so calm the fuck down and stop with the crazy talk bettyellen Dec 2012 #97

Here. Your own words. There is really only one way to interpret that narrative. Bonobo Dec 2012 #98

You already agreed with me that men don;t do enough, LOL. So when I relate a true story bettyellen Dec 2012 #99

Plenty of men speak out against violence. Educate yourself. Bonobo Dec 2012 #100

that's a good point. but Ive raised this with so many guys here, and yours is the first actual bettyellen Dec 2012 #101

Yes, I should have done better. I am feeling stressed about the shooting news. Bonobo Dec 2012 #102

it's okay, Bo. I actually didn't get as pissed at you as I might have bettyellen Dec 2012 #103

Thanks. Can you believe that the brother of the shooter Bonobo Dec 2012 #104

On Jeff above 8th street? Saw footage of the news crews outside. bettyellen Dec 2012 #105

I don't know her specific address Bonobo Dec 2012 #106

Here's how it goes down. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #107

I've seen it go down. And while most women saw violence among men as a serious societal issue bettyellen Dec 2012 #108

It isn't really men vs women lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #109

good for you! i wish more people were in a position to work at what makes them happy bettyellen Dec 2012 #110

There are a TON of shelters that take in men too Taverner Jan 2013 #111

They're called "jails". n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #112

Here's an interesting point; my wife and I just watched this movie "Bernie" Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #113

Demons exist on both sides of the gender divide Major Nikon Jan 2013 #114