Men's Group

Major Nikon

(36,900 posts)

77. There is a big pay gap, but that doesn't necessarily mean equality isn't nearer

Thu Dec 6, 2012, 08:27 PM

Dec 2012

Most of the pay gap is due to issues of choice rather than discrimination. That's not to say discrimination doesn't exist, isn't a factor, and shouldn't be addressed. It absolutely should.

Women are generally more likely to be less productive because they spend more time taking care of children and family and their overall pay suffers for it. However, when you compare actual pay for actual productivity, women aren't that far off. I've seen more than one study that compares never married, childless women and men and the pay gap is statistically irrelevant. Equal opportunity doesn't always mean equal outcome. If you want equal outcome, then you're going to have to address family issues and culture, not gender discrimination so much which is already illegal.

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It's really only violence if it is man vs. woman. [View all] Bonobo Dec 2012 OP

I think you may be jumping to conclusions. ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #1

True, but it can also indicate bias by focusing on one exclusively or by ignoring others. Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #2

Just peruse how little attention and sympathy he is getting compared to Rihanna. Bonobo Dec 2012 #3

The "why" is simple, but uncomfortable... TreasonousBastard Dec 2012 #4

Yes, and it results in the devaluation of men. Bonobo Dec 2012 #5

Poster is jumping to lots of conclusions, and admits that he'd never even heard of these people yardwork Dec 2012 #27

violence is violence fizzgig Dec 2012 #6

Indeed. Do you have any idea how much violence boys face every day? Bonobo Dec 2012 #7

That's a whole field of strawmen. Let's deconstruct this bit by bit, shall we. yardwork Dec 2012 #28

As a matter of fact, just today... Bonobo Dec 2012 #29

Link to what you claim happened on DU? I'm not interested in sketchy websites from the net. yardwork Dec 2012 #32

I'm sorry. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #8

S'okay old man. I understand. Bonobo Dec 2012 #9

Hey- I know who David Byrne is! Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #10

I agree. Bonobo Dec 2012 #11

Correct on both counts. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #12

I was more a "Decline of Western Civilization: The Metal Years" type. opiate69 Dec 2012 #13

Heh. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #15

You know what pisses me off? noamnety Dec 2012 #14

agreed La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #16

Exactly right. Exactly, exactly right. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #19

You seem to have completely misunderstood the poster's point. yardwork Dec 2012 #26

Does this link look like the kind of mindset that advocates for equality? Bonobo Dec 2012 #30

That's not a link to a post on DU. yardwork Dec 2012 #31

Post #17 below does spell out that issues of violence that affect boys Bonobo Dec 2012 #33

Post #17 does nothing of the sort. It doesn't mention HoF at all. yardwork Dec 2012 #35

OK, it was a lame link, but I am too busy to go hunting. Bonobo Dec 2012 #36

Wait... MadrasT Dec 2012 #48

I noticed that, too, and hoped that the poster didn't mean that the way it sounds. yardwork Dec 2012 #50

No, you both just read too much into it. Bonobo Dec 2012 #55

Well, I said that I hoped that I had misunderstood, and even followed up to say that I probably had. yardwork Dec 2012 #61

Thank you. nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #63

Are we trying to define.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #34

What? Who are these "feminists" you seem to think speak for every feminist? yardwork Dec 2012 #37

"Who call themselves feminists" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #42

LOL! You have a dispute with one person on DU. They don't speak for all feminists. yardwork Dec 2012 #46

So, help me understand... Upton Dec 2012 #51

Everybody on DU speaks only for themselves. yardwork Dec 2012 #52

And yet.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Dec 2012 #53

Of course I expressed my opinion about the definition of feminism. This is a message board. yardwork Dec 2012 #58

Thank you for making that clear.. Upton Dec 2012 #54

I agree with you right up to the last phrase, and I lost you there. yardwork Dec 2012 #59

That is true enough. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #57

If I rec a post or a thread it means I agree with it. yardwork Dec 2012 #62

I've run feminist current through Norton..it's safe. Upton Dec 2012 #65

I've heard that Norton is not reliable. However, I'll check out the site and let you know. brb. yardwork Dec 2012 #68

Ok, I checked it out and I wasn't impressed. yardwork Dec 2012 #70

Good point. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #66

I think that all those things are unjust. yardwork Dec 2012 #67

Thanks, then you have more in common with me than you do with the author of feministcurrent. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #69

That is entirely possible. I just took a look at feministcurrent and was not impressed. yardwork Dec 2012 #71

I didn't misunderstand her point. She's the blind squirrel who has stumbled over the nut. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #40

Feminism means equality for everybody Confusious Dec 2012 #73

I think it does overall Major Nikon Dec 2012 #75

Why did you reply to my post and not the one above? Confusious Dec 2012 #80

Because I'm pretty sure Jeff will read my post regardless of where it is Major Nikon Dec 2012 #86

They seem to want privilege in exchange for alleged privilege Confusious Dec 2012 #87

The idea of privilege has it's place Major Nikon Dec 2012 #88

Three days of reading what? yardwork Dec 2012 #79

Reading about "todays" feminism Confusious Dec 2012 #81

What were you reading? yardwork Dec 2012 #82

Gospel: The difference in wages between men and women Confusious Dec 2012 #84

I disagree. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #44

If that were true, feminists would applaud the suggestion that pay was at or nearing parity. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #45

Pay is not close to equity. Overall, the gap in pay between men and women has not improved at all. yardwork Dec 2012 #47

You're wrong, and the sources which indicate otherwise are being intentionally dishonest. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #49

You're wrong Confusious Dec 2012 #74

There is a big pay gap, but that doesn't necessarily mean equality isn't nearer Major Nikon Dec 2012 #77

They seem to be intellectually dishonest on that one Major Nikon Dec 2012 #76

The act was a trivial (but necessary) tweak to a law that's been on the books since 1964. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #78

I think it was more than a tweak Major Nikon Dec 2012 #85

See, here's my problem with off-hand generalizations like "the culture of violence". Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #43

Why violent crime is decreasing noamnety Dec 2012 #56

Very interesting post. Thanks for that research and commentary. yardwork Dec 2012 #64

Lead, that's one I hadn't heard before. Warren DeMontague Dec 2012 #72

Oh nothing needs to change. Or so I'm told. Warren Stupidity Dec 2012 #60

Newsflash: Stupid old straw man still stupid, growing older. nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #83

women's groups focus on issues that affect women disproportionately La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #17

Cherry picking my post. Bonobo Dec 2012 #18

True. "Equality" is a head-fake. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #20

yes, it is about advocacy for equal rights and opportunities for women La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #21

It's not about equal rights. It's about advocacy. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #22

yeah. right. La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #23

q) what's Ann Romney's net worth? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #24

you're applying a group level phenomenon to one couple? La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #25

Yes. The group level phenomenon is that women control most of the wealth in this country. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #38

Do you have a link to back up that assertion? yardwork Dec 2012 #39

Here's one. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #41

it's interesting how men in our culture seem to do no advocacy to protect themselves against other.. bettyellen Dec 2012 #89

I started an OP about it. Does that count? nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #90

the title of this OP seems more resentful of women for not doing more? If society is not paying bettyellen Dec 2012 #91

That is a misread based on your own headspace. Bonobo Dec 2012 #92

you framed it as some sort of competition with women.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #93

Men have been shamed into not having a voice. Bonobo Dec 2012 #94

I agree, except that you actually did stir up this dustup by putting "men VS women" in the OP.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #95

I think the "men really suck" line is ultimately not going to get us anywhere. Bonobo Dec 2012 #96

whoa whoa whoa, no one said men suck, so calm the fuck down and stop with the crazy talk bettyellen Dec 2012 #97

Here. Your own words. There is really only one way to interpret that narrative. Bonobo Dec 2012 #98

You already agreed with me that men don;t do enough, LOL. So when I relate a true story bettyellen Dec 2012 #99

Plenty of men speak out against violence. Educate yourself. Bonobo Dec 2012 #100

that's a good point. but Ive raised this with so many guys here, and yours is the first actual bettyellen Dec 2012 #101

Yes, I should have done better. I am feeling stressed about the shooting news. Bonobo Dec 2012 #102

it's okay, Bo. I actually didn't get as pissed at you as I might have bettyellen Dec 2012 #103

Thanks. Can you believe that the brother of the shooter Bonobo Dec 2012 #104

On Jeff above 8th street? Saw footage of the news crews outside. bettyellen Dec 2012 #105

I don't know her specific address Bonobo Dec 2012 #106

Here's how it goes down. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #107

I've seen it go down. And while most women saw violence among men as a serious societal issue bettyellen Dec 2012 #108

It isn't really men vs women lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #109

good for you! i wish more people were in a position to work at what makes them happy bettyellen Dec 2012 #110

There are a TON of shelters that take in men too Taverner Jan 2013 #111

They're called "jails". n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2013 #112

Here's an interesting point; my wife and I just watched this movie "Bernie" Warren DeMontague Jan 2013 #113

Demons exist on both sides of the gender divide Major Nikon Jan 2013 #114