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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
15. It's not simply an article of faith.
Thu Jan 24, 2013, 06:30 PM
Jan 2013

H.T. Odum came up with the underlying idea in the late 1970s: "During self-organization, system designs develop and prevail that maximize power intake, energy transformation, and those uses that reinforce production and efficiency."

One of the implications of that insight is this. If self-organizing complex adaptive systems (of which human societies and civilization as a whole are canonical examples) do maximize their power intake and energy transformation, then one of the ways they will adapt in order to do that is to become more efficient. Efficiency reduces the power requirement of one part of a system so that energy can be shifted to other parts that are under-supplied, or be applied to the growth of the system as a whole.

A human example of this is making American coal plants more efficient and then exporting the coal that is spared to China to produce power there.

If you see an example that appears to demonstrate energy conservation through efficiency, I invite you to ask where the energy that is spared in that operation ends up? Does it stay unused or is it used for other things in other places? I suggest that you may have a bit of "boundary blindness" that can be alleviated by understanding the system in a larger context. There is after all a global market for goods, services and energy, so looking at single-industry or national statistics will tell you very little about how the whole thing works.

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I guess we should try to make sure that any money savings from cheaper energy limpyhobbler Jan 2013 #1
True belivers in “Jevons’ Paradox” will tell you that such efforts would fail OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #2
It seems like more of an abstract philosophy question that a real world problem. limpyhobbler Jan 2013 #3
"It's not a natural law..." NoOneMan Jan 2013 #10
Preach it, brother! GliderGuider Jan 2013 #11
As long as there are people with unfulfilled needs and wants The2ndWheel Jan 2013 #4
And there we have it! (A true believer!) OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #6
Thanks for taking out my qualifying statements to make your point The2ndWheel Jan 2013 #24
No energy has yet been conserved. In this example we just have more consumption NoOneMan Jan 2013 #9
How about addressing the Nature article linked to by the OP? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #12
I did. Its based on a false premise NoOneMan Jan 2013 #14
Did you actually read the Nature article? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #17
This paper is akin to analyzing genetic drift in unicorn populations NoOneMan Jan 2013 #18
So, is that a yes? OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #19
I don't think you understand that I am not arguing about the red herring NoOneMan Jan 2013 #20
Once again, you need to start somewhere OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #21
"There is a large group of people who point to..." NoOneMan Jan 2013 #23
Invoking Jevons misses the point GliderGuider Jan 2013 #5
Except, that /it is all about Jevons…/ OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #7
I do things out of a wide variety of personal concerns GliderGuider Jan 2013 #8
“The point of making things more efficient is to allow the whole system to keep growing.” OKIsItJustMe Jan 2013 #13
It's not simply an article of faith. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #15
"This is an article of faith for you, but not necessarily true." NoOneMan Jan 2013 #16
At the age of 60 madokie Jan 2013 #22
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