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[iverglas]

101. I have to refer you back to the statement of principles

This particular thread is about redqueen's decision she can no longer participate at DU, and the reasons for that decision - reasons that are widely shared among the women who are active members of this protected group.

None of us would disagree that all the problems you mention seriously affect women. But the issue in this thread isn't theproblems women experience out in the real world, or how anyone thinks those problems should be ranked; it's the problems at DU that are driving women away from it.

Believe me, a lot of women have been driven away. I contacted one via DU2 a couple of weeks ago just as a start on, hopefully, getting a few more of our long-time feminists over to the group here. She replied saying, essentially, that she wouldn't touch this place with a 10-foot pole.

I wasn't really clear on what she was talking about. It's only since hanging out in H&M in the last week or so that I've got a better idea. The hostility to women, the sheer crass gross misogyny on the part of a significant segment of the DU population, has become apparent in this brave new DU. And we're not talking newbie trolls; we're talking long-standing, prolific members. There are different varieties in the crop of misogyny on parade, but it's all ugly, and it's all being paraded with impunity. Juries are wilfully letting it proceed, and a whole crowd gathers to join in when the parade starts.

This, if you like, is its own meta-discussion. It's about the barriers women face at DU, not outside the cave. It's about how these women at DU are dealing with and reacting to the barriers being shoved in their faces.

I'm afraid I have to say, speaking as a co-host, that your last post at least is out of place. We don't want to be told that words don't matter, because we know they do. We know that it is easier to abuse a woman if you have carefully destroyed her spirit by calling her all the ugly names men call women. We know it is harder for women to achieve equality in any realm in society when men look at women and see them as what those names represent.

Yes, we know it's easier to destroy a woman's spirit, and abuse her, if her economic opportunities are not equal. But that isn't the subject of this thread. The subject is the very real harms done by the kind of attitudes on display at this website, the viciously ugly things said to and about women, the intimidation, the absolutely blatant muscle-flexing and displays of power put on when women speak to those issues and concerns.

We've lost redqueen, the latest in quite a long line. If you're concerned about this phenomenon, then you want to be out there "on the street" -- in GD, in H&M -- hell, in that Men's group thing -- standing up and standing with the women who are telling you and the rest what our reality is.

Whatever you decide to do in that regard, I think it's fair for me to say in my co-host capacity that this isn't the time and place for the broader discussion you're wanting to turn this to. Thanks.