Religion

SoFlaDem

(98 posts)

69. The question begged by all this for me, though...

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:47 AM

Jan 2019

when we talk about "free will" in a moral sense, would it not only matter if there are presumptions of a guiding God or innate good that we are "free" to accept or shun? Otherwise, it is all relative, no? If there is not a higher power, force or strength, is there an objective higher purpose that goes beyond just what works best in the struggle for survival of the fittest? That is what my spirituality is based around, my belief in an innate good that goes beyond the randomness of evolution (although I don't question evolution is how we got here) and has instilled in me the ability to feel a love that goes beyond just my family, my clan and my genetic progeny.

When did we develop that potential? And why can we also go the other way and kill 8 million Jews in a holocaust? That is the true nature of the OP's question for me.

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When did God give man Free Will? [View all] edhopper Jan 2019 OP

or is free will and decision making part of the evolutionary process? Throck Jan 2019 #1

The creation of humans story is self-contradictory PJMcK Jan 2019 #2

But what about people like most Catholics edhopper Jan 2019 #14

"accept modern science" Act_of_Reparation Jan 2019 #24

Never mix religion and facts. It's not healthy. DetlefK Jan 2019 #3

Yet billions believe both. edhopper Jan 2019 #15

Well stated. Evidence-based science took quite a while to be accepted erronis Jan 2019 #105

Nonononono. You don't understand: The concept of evidence-based science didn't even exist back then. DetlefK Jan 2019 #118

I could have sworn that earlier civilizations figured out the movement of the stars, calculated the erronis Jan 2019 #121

This is "how", not "why". DetlefK Jan 2019 #122

"God" is just a game-playing sadist. Duppers Jan 2019 #4

My dogs know when they have been bad. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #5

cats certainly have free will. rampartc Jan 2019 #31

Based upon your premise zipplewrath Jan 2019 #6

Not really. Adam EXERCISED free will by doing that. MineralMan Jan 2019 #8

Yeah, that's always been a flaw in the story zipplewrath Jan 2019 #9

Well, according to the myth, God told Adam and Eve not to eat MineralMan Jan 2019 #10

And it's the woman's fault zipplewrath Jan 2019 #11

LOL! True. MineralMan Jan 2019 #12

Oh ho! Lordquinton Jan 2019 #21

LOL! MineralMan Jan 2019 #22

... Lordquinton Jan 2019 #55

But there are billions who believe edhopper Jan 2019 #16

In various ways zipplewrath Jan 2019 #17

And my question for the first group edhopper Jan 2019 #19

The first group are engaged in dishonest Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #20

since the gods are creations of humans they have all the nasty human attributes msongs Jan 2019 #7

The people who use "free will" as a defense can't even prove we have it. trotsky Jan 2019 #13

Hate to have to prove it. zipplewrath Jan 2019 #18

I would simply refuse to make the argument. MineralMan Jan 2019 #25

Plot twist: instructor exercised free will and failed you Major Nikon Jan 2019 #26

OK. I would have anticipated that, but decided anyway. MineralMan Jan 2019 #27

A linguistics joke marylandblue Jan 2019 #30

Perfect! MineralMan Jan 2019 #36

You would invent a narrative that you chose Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #32

I'm going with 1980. Unsurprisingly, it makes more sense than any holy book. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #23

Agree completely! democratisphere Jan 2019 #78

Several years ago, on a PBS special, the claim was made that the adaptation of a meat-based diet by in2herbs Jan 2019 #28

Animals can't think? Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #33

Animals are instinctive, they do not have the level of reasoning or critical thinking skills that in2herbs Jan 2019 #34

Actually, no. They can and do think and reason, MineralMan Jan 2019 #37

What animals made the scientific discovery for vaccines?? for going to the moon? The level of an in2herbs Jan 2019 #44

No question. We are the best at thinking and reasoning. MineralMan Jan 2019 #45

Ponder the self-awareness of a cat looking in a mirror and discovering it has ears. Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #47

I'd also point out that you're apparently arguing humans didn't "think" until the 20th Century... Pope George Ringo II Jan 2019 #49

Ok let's unpack that. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #46

This ability is singular to humans and is what sets us apart from animals. Lordquinton Jan 2019 #56

What of carnivorous animals? MineralMan Jan 2019 #38

He explained it poorly edhopper Jan 2019 #41

Nope. Bigger brain more success at survival. MineralMan Jan 2019 #43

Homo needed to change the way it ate edhopper Jan 2019 #50

Cooking our food - whether animal or vegetable - was arguably more important. trotsky Jan 2019 #39

And communal sharing of food as well. edhopper Jan 2019 #42

Yes, absolutely. trotsky Jan 2019 #48

hey trotsky edhopper Jan 2019 #52

Exactly right. Which is yet another reason why libertarianism thucythucy Jan 2019 #76

Very true. LuvNewcastle Jan 2019 #106

The blog, The Conversation, has an article on that idea. Jim__ Jan 2019 #40

There is no free will... there is only allowed will. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #29

This description makes it sound like humans have no control over their lives and if we're without in2herbs Jan 2019 #35

'Allowed' decision-making capability. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #51

So is that what happened to Trump's SOTU, and marylandblue Jan 2019 #60

Nope. It makes Pelosi's decision approved by God... and Trump's decisions which come true. keithbvadu2 Jan 2019 #62

Our decision making capabilities may bit Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #57

Is there really such a thing? SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #53

Part of the problem is that there are a couple of concepts of MineralMan Jan 2019 #54

The question begged by all this for me, though... SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #69

I don't think about "free will" exclusively in a moral sense. MineralMan Jan 2019 #70

How do you know what your higher power wants? Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #75

I follow my conscience SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #77

Other true believers have followed their conscience, too. trotsky Jan 2019 #79

How does anyone know? SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #80

That's kind of the point. trotsky Jan 2019 #82

I think we mostly agree SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #83

Certainly humans often fervently believe they know what is "right"... trotsky Jan 2019 #84

I don't disagree with that. SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #85

The point is, you are making the implicit statement that your guiding "spiritual principles"... trotsky Jan 2019 #86

Are you saying SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #87

Nope, I'm saying that your faith-based method is no better or worse than any other. trotsky Jan 2019 #88

I've never claimed that. SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #90

Yes you did. trotsky Jan 2019 #91

Do you not believe in certain moral or logical principles to guide you? SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #92

Of course I do. trotsky Jan 2019 #120

Then you have no need of this alleged higher power. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #81

I believe that I do SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #89

Still confused by what you've said. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #93

No... SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #94

What you describe is you being the authority on The Good Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #95

Authority? SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #96

I don't think people understand the difference between belief and spiritual practice marylandblue Jan 2019 #100

I think you are right SoFlaDem Jan 2019 #103

If man is "created in the image and likeness", guillaumeb Jan 2019 #58

When did that occur? edhopper Jan 2019 #59

When we acquired what we call human sentience. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #61

So when did God do that edhopper Jan 2019 #63

The meaning of the name Adam shows metaphoric intent. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #98

All names in Hebrew have a meaning marylandblue Jan 2019 #104

The names Adam and Eve were not chosen at random. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #108

I'll say it another way marylandblue Jan 2019 #112

Life comes from the earth. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #113

Like I said, ALL hebrew names in the Bible have symbolic meanings marylandblue Jan 2019 #117

The phrases "first man" and "first woman" are used in other myths. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #126

"arguing about the intent of a writer or writers long dead." marylandblue Jan 2019 #128

I suggest only that it is metaphorical. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #130

Then stop calling those who disagree with you "literalists" marylandblue Jan 2019 #131

The term literalist is one that I use for those guillaumeb Jan 2019 #132

They don't think it means one thing and only one thing marylandblue Jan 2019 #138

Most likely edhopper Jan 2019 #123

Again edhopper Jan 2019 #107

When our ancestors acquired human sentience. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #109

So Neanderthal edhopper Jan 2019 #110

Neandertal had a large brain. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #111

So Neanderthal edhopper Jan 2019 #114

Are you certain that Neandertal had no creation stories? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #115

I forgot edhopper Jan 2019 #116

Off point. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #124

So God inspired them with edhopper Jan 2019 #133

Did they have creation stories? guillaumeb Jan 2019 #134

You are the one who brought up edhopper Jan 2019 #136

See your response 110. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #137

So just a way edhopper Jan 2019 #139

I did supply some ideas. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #140

So we weren't created in your creator's likeness, then. trotsky Jan 2019 #66

Oops. Major conflict there, Guy. MineralMan Jan 2019 #68

And Guy has repeatedly said elsewhere here that evolution is the only process, Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #71

Well, evolution is sort of a "needs must" sort of thing. MineralMan Jan 2019 #72

Sure I am not claiming it has to evolve elsewhere, just that it certainly can. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #73

Absolutely. And probably has. MineralMan Jan 2019 #74

No conflict, just misunderstanding on your part. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #99

So god looks like a human? Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #64

Not what I said. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #97

It's exactly what you said. Voltaire2 Jan 2019 #119

Okay. Go with that. guillaumeb Jan 2019 #125

"The Creator freely created." - This is a completely unsupported and unsupportable claim. trotsky Jan 2019 #65

What "Creator?" MineralMan Jan 2019 #67

Free Will... Snackshack Jan 2019 #101

Everything a man or woman does is just automatic, done in a sleeping state. pangaia Jan 2019 #102

I got my free will True Dough Jan 2019 #127

Assumes facts not in evidence. shanny Jan 2019 #129

Assuming the concepts edhopper Jan 2019 #135