Are we witnessing the beginning of the end of the United States?

[ecstatic]

And if so, what should we be doing right now?

I don't know what to make of the 18 states asking the Supreme Court to invalidate my vote and millions of others.

Then we have the death threats and incitement to violence coming from the very top.

What exactly are we observing right now?

69 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	33 (48%)
	No
	23 (33%)
	I don't know
	13 (19%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Saboburns]

5. We had to shoot a few million Nazis in the head 75 years ago

So the rest of them would straighten up.

Same/Same

[SoonerPride]

8. Well voting seems not to persuade them

They won’t stop until blood is shed

Better to accept that fact now.

[ecstatic]

27. yikes! I can't believe we're at this point right now! nt

[Sympthsical]

51. We're not. This is nonsense internet panic.

But it is the internet, so people need to ramp up that drama.

We just read someone saying we can only manage right-wingers by shooting them in the head. And that post is still sitting there.

The country has been through far worse and survived just fine. We'll weather this too, even if it's unpleasant.

People, especially on the internet, suffer from recentism. "Now is the worst time ever!" It's not. More difficult than usual? Absolutely. Look at 1918-20. They had a pandemic that killed far, far more people, a World War, and a President who stroked out to the point that his wife was more or less running the country.

Herd panic is made worse by social media and bubble communities. It only takes a few to bring everyone with them.

Things don't get better until people resist the impulse.

[Progressive Jones]

62. Thank You. nt

[Ponietz]

42. Yes, confrontation is inevitable and best ASAP

[canetoad]

26. No, a few million Nazis were NOT shot in the head

Yes - many died in battle
Yes - a small number were summarily executed by Russian, Allied troops and survivors
Yes - several hundred were executed after carefully thought out Human Rights trials

Different/Different.

[Saboburns]

34. Somewhere around 5-6 million give or take, took 6 years, then the rest straightened up nicely.

Encyclopædia Britannica, article World Wars (2010) Military-killed, died of wounds or in prison – 3,500,000; wounded – 5,000,000; prisoners or missing – 3,400,000; civilian deaths due to war – 780,000. Estimated total deaths – 4,200,000. (Military deaths include men conscripted outside of Germany, in addition perhaps 250,000 died of natural causes, suicide or were executed. Civilian deaths do not include Austria or 2,384,000 deaths in the Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50)[78]
Oxford Companion to World War II (2005) Military losses – Germany 4,500,000, Austria 230,000 Civilian losses – Germany 2,000,000, Austria 144,000. Total losses for Germany and Austria – 6,874,000.[77]

[canetoad]

36. I'm well aware of mortality numbers in WW2

I'm challenging your 'shot in the head' fantasy.

[Saboburns]

38. Not a fantasy if it really happened now is it?

Interestingly enough, 75 years before that happened we had to shoot 300,000 Confederates in the head over 4 years time before they straightened up.

[canetoad]

39. I guess

We just speak differenct languages.

[Crunchy Frog]

41. Total deaths in war ≠ "shooting them in the head".

You do understand that the war dead included babies, children, elderly, other civilians. This was not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination.

If you're actually advocating the systematic extermination of our political opponents, then you may be on the wrong site.

[Saboburns]

43. I advocate nothing of the kind.

But I will ask this: Nearly 300,000 dead Americans so far during this pandemic. How many do reckon are the direct result of Republicans refusing to obey simple social distancing? How many dead Americans do reckon are due to Republican politicians refusing to act because it hurts them politically.

How many dead Americans are coming in the next 3 months due to Republicans?

I would submit that they are already killing us.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

82. Ummm - define "a small number"

I'd be willing to wager more Germans died after the war in Siberia than in Nuremburg. Many more.

[Kaleva]

66. To break the backs of the Nazi's, we had to kill hundreds of thousands of men, women and children

In the Far East, the fire bombing of Tokyo and the dropping of atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed mostly men, women and children.

We did the same to the Native American nations. Many non-combatant Native Americans were either killed or starved to death.

[cry baby]

2. I think it's the beginning of the end. nt

[edhopper]

3. It appears we are close to being a failed State

And half the country is voting for it that way.

[IsItJustMe]

24. I am thinking on similar lines. With almost half of people that vote in this country

ready to burn it down, I don't see a clear path forward. I feel sorry for Biden (and us and the USA) because you know it's gonna be a continued shit show.

[davekriss]

4. Interesting

What if the state governments of the 18 states refuse to recognize Biden on January 20 and anoint Trump as their King?

Good riddance. But super scary, too. We’d descend into deeper, possibly violent chaos.

[986racer]

10. With what money?

[davekriss]

14. Funny you should ask

I deleted a remark rhetorically asking the same question, given that those states are net takers, taking in more in federal money then they pay out. One reason I said “good riddance”.

[ecstatic]

19. And now I can't help but wonder: Did those states take orders from trump

and lindsey with regard to which votes should be kept and which should be tossed? They seem to be willing to do WHATEVER trump wants. Anything! So why should I trust their results, at this point?

[davekriss]

21. The AG of MI asks, on Chris Hayes show,

Why shouldn’t MI sue Texas, given they supplied only 1 drop box for 1.2 million mostly black voters?

[Progressive Jones]

64. They are helping Trump in return for pardons and other favors. nt

[marylandblue]

6. Not sure what to do. This will play out over the next 4 to 12 years.

And Biden holds all the keys. If he can get us to unite again and settle some of the issues dividing us, there is hope. I am not certain he can do it, but he is probably the best person for the job.

[bdamomma]

12. I am all in for hope

but not for stupidity, lies, false information, bullying, intimidation and fear.

[BainsBane]

9. The end of the US as a major power, yes

We are well into it. Trump was a symptom of an America in decline.

[roamer65]

13. Our elections are part of the compact between the states, the Constitution.

If the compact is broken, then all options are on the table for the aggrieved, including SECESSION.

[Doodley]

15. Support for Trump shows that if things go bad, bad recession or whatever, Trump or a

Trump alternative could gain control in 2025.

[Alex4Martinez]

16. This nation has undergone "growing pains" since its inception.

Even during what seemed to be stable times, things have been unstable and undergoing change since the beginning.

To answer the poll question, one needs to identify the definition of "the end".

To some, it might have ended in 1960, or 1969, or 1976 or 1980.

Reagan and Citizens United marked significant declines. Trump is a new crazy.

[Klaralven]

17. It's possible - since WW I countries have been getting smaller and more numerous

The US is currently way bigger geographically and has a lot more population than most.

In area we are 4th behind Russia, Canada, and China, but only China is comparable in geography, since both Russia and Canada have huge arctic areas that are very inhospitable.

In population we are 3rd behind China and India.

During the 20th Century many countries split up, such as the USSR and Yugoslavia most recently. But previously the Spanish, Portuguese, German, French, Belgian, Ottoman, Japanese and British empires broke up.

The UN started with 51 members and now has 193 with the latest entry of South Sudan. A rearrangement of North America could easily add another dozen.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Hoping that Biden and Harris get sworn in, and

there will be a four year respite my family can move out of the country.

I don't want us to be here for what I believe is coming.

[ecstatic]

22. I'm not prepared for this at all. I've loosely joked about moving

many times but now--it's all so real. I'm worried. This is my home. I don't want to leave. I don't have anywhere else to go.

[roamer65]

52. There are better areas of the country to live in for it.

NY, CA, New England, WA, OR, MI, MN...

[Crunchy Frog]

61. I live in a better area. I don't want us to be on American soil for this.

[Azathoth]

20. Yes. We've never seen something like this.

Outside of the Civil War, I'm not familiar with any time in American history where a major party openly and uniformly refused to accept the results of a democratic election because they lost.

The damage being done now will not be undone. Starting with Fox and talk radio, and then extending throughout the conservative complex, this will be the new norm every election cycle. The next generation of Federalist Society judges will be trained and appointed specifically to overturn elections that the GOP lose.

[JI7]

23. The problem is white racism

we have always had that problem .

[Yeehah]

77. The problem is the electoral college

A fundamental flaw in our democracy that could likely spell its downfall.

[Demonaut]

25. and fuck this poll, we will make it through this

[Thekaspervote]

31. Oh no kidding!! Too many here immediately go to doom and gloom REPEATEDLY

Stop acting like they hold all the power.. THEY DON’T

[ecstatic]

46. The GOP supreme court will decide

Everyone assumes they'll do the right thing, but we're still at their mercy right now. There's no doubt in my mind that if the SCOTUS went rogue and overturned the election, not one GOP senator would say shit about it. Even romney still adds the bullshit disclaimer, "trump has a right to legal recourse..." yada yada

[Sympthsical]

53. No, they'll do the self-interested thing

They'll vote to retain their own constitutional power.

Didn't we already go through this in 2008? "Bush will fake a terrorist attack, declare martial law, cancel the elections, etc. etc. etc!!!!!!!!111111!!!1"

Whenever Republicans get froggy, so many Democrats panic and despair. How can we claim strength when so many of us wilt so very easily? And furthermore, how absolutely undermining to our own cause this is. This panic and despair is basically declaring a total lack of faith in our recently elected President Biden to be effective in any way.

So was electing him just for show, to make us feel better for a week or two before plunging into the abyss?

Eesh, I seem to have more respect for the man's abilities than others, and he was one of my bottom choices in the primaries.

[Yavin4]

28. This is the end result of valuing capital over human beings

There's a multi-billion dollar right wing, integrated media empire that pumps lies into the heads of Americans every day, all day. That empire is funded by the Mercers, the Kochs, the Murdochs, the Smiths (Sinclair Broadcasting), et al. They use this empire to propagandize Americans to vote for protecting capital above all else.

We're at the point where democracy itself can been seen as an enemy to capital. Voter suppression, gerrymandering, weakening of the Voter Rights act, manipulation of the electoral college, and now suing in court to over turn an election are all the result of protecting capital from democracy.

[area51]

30. +1 n/t

[Beringia]

68. I agree, consumerist fascism

[canetoad]

29. I voted Yes

And have no idea what you can do about it.

Deep down I believe you have allowed the fundies, the wingnuts, the militias, the contrarians to flourish and *believe that they have Freedoms that do not exist in the minds of more normal citizens.

I often ponder the genesis of our two countries; The USA, born from conflict with Britain over money; Australia - acknowledging our British roots but with a convict's disregard of authority.

It is inescapable that countries that adhered to the Parliamentary System are far more politically stable and equitable than the US.

I'm sorry, but in gaining your independence, you threw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Poiuyt]

32. We won't know until a year or two after Trump dies

He has his cult now, and they do whatever he says. But I don't think Jr or anyone else will be able to lead the cult after Don assumes room temperature. Things may begin to return to normal after that.

[moondust]

33. Maybe.

Today I wondered if a lot of Republicans have concluded that demographics are not on their side and a lot of younger Americans are waking up to the fact that the Republican Party couldn't care less about "The People." They'd like to be unchallenged royalty who sit back and decide how everything goes based on their own interests. It's possible many of them have decided that wannabe dictator Trump is their last best chance to become permanent royalty and they are going for it.

[Quixote1818]

35. No, I think the demographics are shifting too much against the hard right

They would have to change their strategy and start courting minorities. If they do that they lose their crazy base. I think it's going to be a difficult time for the GOP when it comes to the Presidency for awhile but they still have an advantage with the Senate.

[cachukis]

37. Some might say the Renaissance was the peak of intellectual art and philosophy.

Others would argue, rightly, that intellect and art will always go on.

America begat the '50's and '60's. We had just whupped the bad guys with aplomb.

We boomer's have experienced the fight for ideological freedom. Haven't lived up so well to that ideal. Progress, is slow. But we did have the best music. Might be the height of America's legacy. We did get to the Moon on that ideal, but Title IX took some more time.

We still haven't figured out how to deal with the others. Too many of us can't deal with the others. We have had ample time to figure out that we are others.

I'm not sure we can handle the climate change since we are doing so poorly with masks.

If we don't shrink our perspective to our understanding that we all need each other to survive what's happening, then solutions will continue to be evasive.

Democracy has been tested mightily this go round.

There is a lot of money that want's to grow. Control of the water to moisten the soil is where the money will be spent. Freedom, the plant, needs a lot of attention to the weeds sucking the moisture.

[GusBob]

40. Democracy died with Citizens United

The dead horse is just being kicked now

There will be a USA but it will be very different

[UCmeNdc]

44. Democracy died with Citizens United and the Fairness Doctrine in Media removal

Without truth how can the United States stand?

[Thrill]

45. If SCOTUS takes that case. YES

It’s no longer a democracy

[Initech]

47. If we don't start prosecuting and charging these criminals, consider it gone.

[GusBob]

48. 10:07 pm MST and it's tied 59 even

I think this is the closest poll results I've ever seen on DU. A bad omen

Let the lawsuits begin

[GusBob]

56. Was 62 even, now 64 up

What a horserace of a poll

The courts might have to intervene

[Sympthsical]

49. Canned food and shotguns

[inwiththenew]

50. One thing the left and right seem to agree on is that this country is f#cked

Obviously for different reasons but that adds up to bad news.

[Celerity]

54. It's the beginning of the end unless we can vastly expand the size of the House (to mitigate the EC,

as the Interstate Voter Compact will never have enough states join it to go into effect, and even if it did, it will be found to be unconstitutional by the hardcore RW SCOTUS), plus add DC and Puerto Rico as states (to start to sort the Senate, which also, at that point, needs to have the filibuster quashed once and for all) and also greatly expand the lower federal Judiciary and the SCOTUS (as we will quite likely never see a Democratic POTUS-nominated SCOTUS justice every approved of again by a Rethug-controlled Senate) to roll back the insane RW posture of it all now, post-Trump and McTurtle.

Fail on all those (or most) and eventually the giant Blue states will come under so much threat that they will start to try and secede. It could get incredibly nasty, as the taker Red states know the giver Blue states carry their white power arses.

[lindysalsagal]

55. If congress doesn't accept the election results....what then?

[SoFlaBro]

63. Say hello to acting President Pelosi for the near future.

The repukes REALLY don't want that.

[lindysalsagal]

76. Ok. Awesome. Thanks. Whew!

[Maven]

57. Yes. Our Constitution is fatally flawed.

Biden’s election bought us a few years but the U.S. will not last much longer as one nation.

[meadowlander]

60. I agree.

It's primary purpose is to preserve a status quo that just doesn't work anymore. The US has been left behind for the last forty years because it's being sold off for parts by short-sighted plutocrats.

[vercetti2021]

58. We beat nazis before

We'll do it again if we must. I don't fear these fat wannabe men toting their small penis toys in public to show off their so called toughness.

We own guns too. We just don't flaunt them to show off our fake badassry

[meadowlander]

59. No. We're well into the middle of the end. Bordering on the beginning of the end of the end.

Reagan was the beginning of the end.

You can get rid of Trump a lot easier than you can deal with what's fucked in the head of the 70 million people who voted for him after the total shit show that the last four years has been.

[budkin]

65. Let's see what happens when Trump is gone

We got Damn close

[Beringia]

67. I have been listening to scholars on the ancient poets of Iran like Hafiz and Saadi

They were actually very open minded and liberal and Saadi was completely against combining religion and politics. Iran became theocracy in 1979. I think similar populist desires are coming to the fore in US too. But I can't believe this kind of fascism will be able to win in the US.

[betsuni]

69. It'll stumble along like it always does, but not as a major player in the 21st century.

At least in the next few decades. Republicans ruined that.

[Alhena]

70. The general trend is toward Idiocracy, but in this election the actual power structures have held

Yes, Republican politicians are signing letters and joining lawsuits they know have no chance of winning. But when it has come time for them to actually exert power, the Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, Wisconsin and Arizona Republican legislators, secretary of states, governors, etc have done their job in certifying the election, often while making meaningless statements to placate their moronic base.

The Republican federal judiciary has done even better- they've not only rejected Trump's lawsuits, but they've ridiculed them as well.

This stuff playing out in SCOTUS is just the final stages of a sad farce for the benefit of the Hannity crowd- the actual result is in no doubt.

[denbot]

71. It's an incompetent coup.

It’s the world’s first democracy, ya gotta expect a coup attempt every 230 years or so..

[Celerity]

72. The US is not remotely the world's first democracy.

The very fact the word is from ancient Greek should be enough.

[denbot]

74. Sorry, worlds first modern democracy..

Pendantic much?

[Celerity]

75. it is not being pedantic at all, it was correcting a fundamental factual error

pedantic would be pointing out the misspelling of said word

[Meowmee]

73. Yes I do believe

We are watching the breakdown of the government. In my mind, it started in 2015 with a fascist and long time mentally unstable criminal con artist who was inciting violence being allowed to run for the highest office and an election that was interfered with by a hostile foreign power who the supposed leader and the traitorous party, still supporting him even at this point, were beholden to. Now after the murder, intentional I believe, of hundreds of thousands and who knows how many more due to covid, they are helping him try to overturn a valid election. I never thought I would witness in this country the lunacy that has happened these past 4-5 years, and what is happening now. These people and the bulk of their supporters are fascists and lunatics. I don’t know what will happen. Even if things go well, Biden is sworn in and things go more smoothly it will never be the same. This cannot be swept under the rug. He and his enablers must be held accountable.

[bluestarone]

78. At the very LEAST, we (our country) have witnessed a very REAL WARNING of what could happen!!

What we (our country) Does with this warning should be our BIGGEST challenge!!! Joe, and Kamala have four years to STOP the RETHUGS dead in their tracks!! Voting has to be our BIGGEST future concern! WE beat them THIS year, and we need to continue even in a BIGGER way to get the vote out! WE KNOW VOTING works!! Gonna be a very tough four years for us ALL!! BUT WE CAN DO IT!!!

[UCmeNdc]

79. Steve Schmidt warns that America is one election away from losing its democracy

Link to tweet

[Algernon Moncrieff]

81. If we had not held the House, it'd have ended now.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

80. There's a lot to unpack in that question

Objectively, we were far closer to the end of the US in 1861-1865 than now.

We are ~225 years old. Keep in mind that that is still relatively young. look what France has gone through in the same timeframe - end of monarchy/a bloody revolution; Napoleon; more monarchy; I think they are on - what? the 5th Republic right now? Plus, they were occupied by the Nazis. Don't even get started on the UK.

We have a lot of factors at play right now:

- Whites are going from a majority to a plurality and don't want to give up power. Travel around the US. Get outside the big cities - especially north of I-80 and west of M/SP or Omaha. You don't see a lot of non-white faces. In AFB towns - sure. In towns with packing houses, like Sioux Falls or Sioux City, you might see Africans and Latinx that work in the packing houses. But it's pretty white until you get to the West Coast. Those folks are not happy when they see BLM protesters because it's an issue that doesn't impact them.
- We have a generational shift as the boomers die off, and the last time we had a fractious generational shift was - you guessed it - when the boomers started coming of age in the 60s.
- The living memory of WWII is leaving us
- The world is becoming increasingly complex, and the change of pace is rapid. People like simple solutions, but often the simple solutions/answers to complex problems are wrong.
- A lot of what you see is crafted political theater because one thing the GOP has gotten really good at is spite and payback. Did Trump really lose? Wasn't there massive voter fraud? You Dems sure thought there was fraud in 2016 and impeached our guy over it. Joe Biden can enjoy Karma. -or- Oh, so you don't like the ide of voter ID and having a clear and auditable vote count, but boy did you Dems whine about vote security after Bush won in 2000.
- We've always disagreed about the relative importance of areas of the constitution. Conservatives tend to see freedom of firearms ownership and faith as the most important aspects, while progressives see the protections of press and speech, and the protection of undue search & seizure and cruel/unusual punishment as important. But we all read stuff in as implied - progressives strongly believe in a right to privacy; conservatives believe that the freedom to start and run a business is in there. We've also always disagreed over the need for the Electoral College. But this has led us to where we are now, and it is really a symptom of a larger issue. Some large populated states (Texas, Florida, Ohio) voted for Trump. However, a lot of states with relatively small populations (< 1M in some cases) like Wyoming, NoDak, SoDak, Alaska, Montana - voted for Trump. To be sure, there are some Biden states in this group - Vermont, New Hampshire, Delaware. Conservatives in these small states, as well as conservatives in deeply divided states, like Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania - don't view the idea of thwarting the will of the voters (even voters in their own states) as undemocratic because they see it as protection from coastal elites with whom they have nothing in common.

It clearly can't continue like this.

What to do?

One possible solution is divorce. Bust up the country into separate countries or some kind of confederation. Maybe we just have to accept that there is about 1/3 of this nation that wants to live in a faith-based apartheid state and give them what they want. But where would that be? And would the new nations just end up warring with one another.

One possible solution is to bust up states. I think this idea actually appeals to conservatives as well. Florida should probably be 4 states. Texas and California at least 5 - 6 each. New York and Illinois (probably Pennsylvania as well) should each be 2 - 3. Ultimately, that might make the Senate more representative.

After the various fiascos of 21st century elections, it is probably time for the various state houses and governors to have a Constitutional Convention. Obviously, there would be some vastly different agendas going in. I think there might be broad agreement that the time has come for congressional term limits, limits on SCOTUS terms, putting limits on presidential pardon power, possibly working some roles in longer terms and requiring a higher approval bar to make them "non-political" in the manner of the Fed - AG, FBI head, CIA head, possibly Sec Def. Possibly requiring the House and Senate to approve SCOTUS picks; possibly requiring a 3/5 or 2/3 majority on SCOTUS picks. I doubt consensus could be reached on choice/abortion, corporate personhood, LGBTQ rights - maybe the ERA could finally be incorporated.

Right now, I think the forecast is one-term presidencies and wild every-four year policy swings for a decade or more.

[ecstatic]

83. Those are some really interesting ideas that I had not considered prior to your post

I've been thinking more along the lines of a one country, 2+ systems/governments approach. We still live side by side, but every household chooses the system they want to be a part of (red, blue, or purple). You can choose which system you'll belong to at age 18, but you can only switch systems once per 5 to 10 year period.

Oh, and physically attacking someone from an opposing system would be a capital crime.

I'm not sure how policing would be handled.