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[Coventina]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Coventina) on Tue Apr 19, 2022, 02:59 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[PoliticAverse]

1. From July 2021...

Insect Experts Will Change The Name Of The 'Gypsy Moth' And 'Gypsy Ant'
https://www.npr.org/2021/07/10/1014787096/insect-experts-will-change-the-name-of-the-gypsy-moth-and-gypsy-ant

[elleng]

2. The Romani, colloquially known as the Roma, are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group,

traditionally nomadic itinerants. Most of the Romani people live in Europe, and diaspora populations also live in the Americas. Wikipedia

Great song, great performer!

[AZSkiffyGeek]

3. Not Roma, but I do know a couple

One doesn’t like it, the other doesn’t care. I haven’t heard any specific complaints about either song, but I recently read someone who performs the Cher song as “Roma Tramps and Thieves”

[Amishman]

31. Yup, knew one in college. She loved to play up the stereotypes to mess with people

The problem is this:

Hateful people start using word X in a derogatory fashion.

Sensitive people push for word X to be pushed from polite society.

Hateful people continue using word X themselves, and now also use word Y as a euphemism in place of word X when in polite company.

We end up trading word X for Y, and nothing else actually changes because awful people are still awful.

[meadowlander]

4. Why would some rando on DU claiming to have Roma heritage make you feel better about it?

And I suspect Egyptian people have an equal claim to offense at the term.

Anyway, it's all about context, not the use of the term itself. Huck Finn uses the N word but in a way that points out the ignorance of people who use it.

Are those songs subverting stereotypes about Roma people or perpetuating them? If the latter, then why would you be that invested in them still being OK to like? It's not like there's a shortage of other songs in the world.

[Coventina]

5. It's a discussion board. I wanted their opinion. I never play those songs

as I don't care for them, personally.

I just happen to know that they are both hugely popular songs that get a fair amount of airtime (on oldies stations).


If the word is a racist slur, then it shouldn't be used in any context. But, as the NPR story indicates, its current usage is pretty pervasive and will really need a robust campaign to eliminate.

[meadowlander]

6. But why specifically their opinion if not to reduce any guilt about liking the song if you can

find at least one person claiming to be Roma who says it's OK?

Surely this is something that anyone can work out intellectually.

You'll never get an entire group of people to agree on what's offensive or not. There's always at least one person who claims "I'm not offended" as if that makes it completely fine for members outside that group to keep using it.

It doesn't become a racist slur if you can't find a single person of that heritage who isn't offended by it. It's a racist slur because it has been used historically to marginalise or disadvantage vulnerable people who don't identify themselves by that term. You don't need to poll the entire population to work that out.

And of course context matters. If members of that group want to use it to reclaim their power, then fine. The syllables of the word don't contain magically offensive powers. The offensiveness comes from who is using how and why.

Not meaning to pile on you, but it drives me bonkers whenever we try to have a serious conversation about why misogynistic terms used in a certain way shouldn't be enabled on this board and without fail there's always one woman commenting that it doesn't bother them and then that's held up by the perpetrators as an excuse to keep doing it. It isn't.

[Tree-Hugger]

16. Exactly this +1 nt

[eShirl]

17. jesus

[Tetrachloride]

8. Egypt, the gypsies word and more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Most Egyptian people don’t know enough English to be aware of the gypsy term, and / or to care. I have never heard the word spoken or alluded to here.

Egypt is far more concerned with paying for food, rent, air conditioning, phone and pharmacy bills and daily prayers if applicable. The revolution of 11 years was a massive blow to society as incomes could drop by 50 percent, I was told 11 hours ago.

Egypt does have marginalized ethnic groups which can be read occasionally at Egypt Streets dot com

https://egyptianstreets.com/2022/04/17/who-are-egypts-bedawiye-tribes/

[Solly Mack]

7. The word "Gypsy" is an exonym. Meaning it's a name given to the Romani by outsiders.

It's a negative word. Think of all the negative connotations of the word, along with the negative derivations of the word.

My family is from an area in Georgia with a large Romani sub-group population. I didn't grow up in the area, but I spent a lot of time there.

They will tell you who they are - Romani, Romanichel, Traveller, etc.. Well, they'll tell you if you treat them with respect.

Some families in the town where my family is from have appeared on that show about Roma life/coming of age/getting married. They're Romanichel.

They can call themselves whatever they want.

That doesn't mean everyone gets to do the same.

[Tree-Hugger]

15. +1 nt

[multigraincracker]

9. Here is a way to deal with the issue.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/11911814

May not be exactly the same, but a thoughtful way to approach this type of issue.

[obamanut2012]

10. Are there black people on DU that want to comment on the nword?

See how that sounds? That is what you just asked.

[Tree-Hugger]

13. Exactly +1 nt

[yardwork]

18. Bingo.

Why is that individuals who belong to the minority group are somehow always responsible for the majority group's behavior.

A never-ending question.

[RobinA]

19. They Aren't Responsible

for the majority's behavior, they are complaining about the majority's behavior and therefore need to have an alternative in mind that would be OK with them. Us majoritarians aren't mind readers and we aren't allowed to ask. I don't sit around thinking about European travelers. If there's name out there in common usage that they don't like to be called, tell us what they do want to be called.

[obamanut2012]

23. This has been a known slur for decades, and the US has the largest Roma population

Outside of Europe as a WHOLE.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

32. It's Roma

It’s been mentioned multiple times in this thread and has been in common use for decades.

[obamanut2012]

22. I am so exhausted with it, Yardie

[Mosby]

34. Big Fat Gypsy Weddings

It's an award winning show.

Some spinoffs:

Gypsy Sisters follows the roller-coaster lives of the Stanleys, a loud and proud clan from West Virginia, whom viewers first came to know in TLC's `My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding'. The new programme focuses on the four women at the centre of this outrageous family led by matriarch Nettie, a gossip-stirring mother who loves to stick her nose in the lives of her nine children. But it's her out-of-control younger sister Mellie, dubbed the black sheep of the family, that Nettie contends with most. Mellie is a stripper with a penchant for drinking and fighting, earning her the town nickname `Hellie Mellie'. Kayla, Nettie's cousin, strives to be the perfect Gypsy wife but often disagrees with her husband on the best way to raise their teenage daughter. And Kayla's sister-in-law Laura, though not Roma by blood, considers herself one at heart.

[treestar]

21. It's not as negative as that

The N word is in a class of its own. No other group can "claim" to be called any word equal in offensiveness. Even right wingers know that.

[obamanut2012]

24. Yes, it literally is

[treestar]

27. It's literally not

Don't be disingenuous.

You know damn well this word has survived a lot longer.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

30. So "not as offensive as the N-word is the yardstick?"

You’ve been told it’s offensive yet you still want to use it. Why? What is driving you to want to call people a slur, just that it’s not as bad as the N-word?
This place some times….

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. It varies across countries; in the UK, most don't see it as a slur at all

and use it themselves, and are happy for others to use it:

https://travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture

https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/

[Emrys]

14. Indeed, Gypsies are recognized as a racial group in the UK and given legal protection:

Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are legally recognised as ethnic groups, and protected from discrimination by the Race Relations Act (1976, amended 2000) and the Human Rights Act (1998).

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/gypsies-and-travellers-simple-solutions-living-together

Though, like other racial minorities, the protection they're given is insufficient to overcome the effects of societal prejudice.

[Emrys]

12. "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves"

is written from the perspective of someone from an outgroup, "born in a travelling show". It refers to the hypocrisy of the townsfolk, especially the men, who are only too keen to enjoy what's on offer while calling the show members "Gypsies, tramps and thieves". Indeed, one of a town's young men impregnates the subject of the song, who later gives birth to a daughter "born in a travelling show".

I don't believe Cher gave the song much thought when she recorded it, reportedly at breakneck speed, but I don't think it's inherently offensive.

[treestar]

20. It comes across as positive in Nicks' song

It is a metaphor.

There is something romantic about it - it is not entirely a negative.

Cher was on the defensive, defending her people described as gypsies, tramps and thieves.

No reason to take things that literally and narrow-mindedly - it leads to the left being made fun of with good reason. It is similar to my father getting annoyed at Tina Turner's "What's love go to do with it?" like she was promoting sex without love, not making an ironic comment. Or like right wingers singing "Born in the USA" showing that they do not get the intent behind the song.

[obamanut2012]

25. "There is something romantic about it - it is not entirely a negative"

God, what the hell has happened to DU?

"Romantic" slurs. JFC.

[treestar]

26. well you are applying your opinion

to someone who does not share your opinion.

Typical DU "let me be a victim, please."

[AZSkiffyGeek]

33. "I don't find it offensive to use a known racial slur"

"So I don’t see why I should change just because others find it offensive." Great attitude there.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. It's how it's used

See, for instance, https://www.lexico.com/definition/gypsy . Some say it's offensive, some, including Roma, say it's fine.

Another song that uses it as a romantic compliment:

[MineralMan]

28. I don't know, but I learned many years ago that the term is offensive to

many people, so I stopped using it. That seems simple enough to me.

[ellie]

35. My father was Roma

and my mom was Hungarian, so I am half Roma. I prefer the term Roma instead of gypsy.