Are you finding DU4 easier or harder to use than DU3?

[highplainsdem]

This is NOT about whether you're staying even if you find DU harder to use now. I'm assuming you love this site and are staying anyway, even if you miss DU3.

Nor is this about our admins who have put so much work into fixing bugs with DU4 as fast as they can. I'm assuming we all appreciate everything they've done to keep DU going.

Nor is it about any wrongheaded self-judgment you might be tempted to make, thinking that if you're finding DU4 harder to use, it's somehow your fault.

I just want to get more of a sense of how well DU4 is working for DUers.

109 votes, 18 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Much easier.
	13 (12%)
	Slightly easier.
	17 (16%)
	Slightly harder.
	65 (60%)
	Much harder.
	14 (13%)
	18 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Bettie]

1. I voted slightly easier

because it tends to look clearer on my screen to my aging eyes.

But, really, it is just different. It took me a bit to find the right navigation process for how I use DU. Now, it is kind if invisible, becasue I've adapted.

[LymphocyteLover]

2. It's mostly fine now that I've used it for a while

My one request would not to have the flashing notices in "my stuff". I don't like things flashing at me. A simple color change to yellow for notifications would be fine IMO.

[demmiblue]

5. You can change that in your account settings (click on the "My Stuff" tab at the top to find it). n/t

[LymphocyteLover]

8. Thanks!

[demmiblue]

11. De nada!

[Celerity]

20. you can switch to the 'badge' option, no more flashing but it still shows a wee 'new' icon

[LymphocyteLover]

48. thanks!

[demmiblue]

3. The worst thing about DU4 is/was the bitching and moaning about DU4.

Just sayin'.

[highplainsdem]

6. One of the saddest things about DU4 is some DUers showing how little they care

about anyone having problems with DU4.

[demmiblue]

9. I'm sure most of the problems have been sorted out, as they were when DU2 transitioned to DU3.

The over-the-top criticisms from a few were something else, though.

[honest.abe]

71. Similar to the bitching and moaning about ChatGPT.

[Sympthsical]

4. Neither easier nor harder

Honestly, I don't even notice that it's changed.

Technology inures like that. Something changes, it's weird for about a week as your muscle memory re-situates, then you get used to it. I'm at the used to it stage.

I do think the text tools at the top of the post box makes things cleaner.

[Celerity]

22. it is far better on a smartphone than DU3 was

[MOMFUDSKI]

44. On my IPhone I read a post

and then arrow back and it goes back to the absolute beginning of the entire Latest Discussion and I have to scroll all the way back to where I was.

[bamagal62]

53. THIS!!!!👆

That's the only irritating thing about it. I do miss the old look. And, I will say I like to use night mode occasionally.
So, YAY for that. I forced myself to use the new DU4 and I am fine with it now. (Except for the back button sending me to the entire Latest Discussion page and not the actual thread.)

[Oopsie Daisy]

77. Same with Android. I don't bother checking DU on my smartphone any more.

Too aggravating and annoying. (As if bad news weren't aggravating enough.)

[Orangepeel]

7. neither

pretty much the same

[Chainfire]

10. It is different to me, but not harder. I like some of the graphics changes better than others.

I generally don't like changes, but this one has not bothered me.

[MineralMan]

12. I'm already used to it.

Stuff changes. I adapt.

[FarPoint]

13. It is also less community bonding....

Just the feeling I get...

[highplainsdem]

19. Curious about what you mean by "less community bonding" - would you explain?

To me, DU4 seems less community-revealing than DU3, simply because it lacks the beautifully designed left sidebar of DU3, where using the drop-menus as well so quickly showed all DU had to offer. That was on every single page, and it also made DU3 much easier to navigate. I thought it was the best possible selling point for new users, as well as an incredibly efficient way for DUers to get around the site.

[yardwork]

24. I use DU in my iPhone and never saw that feature.

Now I just hit the Navigate button at the top left and it takes me to a menu. I can see how losing that sidebar would be frustrating.

[highplainsdem]

33. DU3 - for people using phones here - would have been helped tremendously by a tab saying "Mobile Navigation" and

taking people to a page with all those sidebar options.

I know DU4 improves the DU experience for many (not all) people reaching DU via their phones.

But the loss of DU3's design has made the site much more difficult for me to use, much more time-consuming and frustrating. Multiple clicks, often 3-4, to accomplish what one click used to do. And general navigation is more difficult, with what were called groups on DU3 now reshuffled into fewer categories that don't make as much sense as DU3's.

I first got online in the 1980s, have been active in lots of different types of forums, moderator on a few different boards with very different designs, admin with a vBulletin board. I don't have trouble adapting to new board designs. But I think changes should make things easier, not harder, for users.

Which is why I posted this poll to try to get more info on whether DU4 is making DU easier or harder to use for DUers. Info to add to what I've already gleaned from comments posted on the board, what I've heard in email, and my impression that activity here is down (which means those most unhappy with DU4 won't be likely to see this poll at all).

[brush]

55. Agreed. Absolutely my feelings too. Everything feature was visible and easy to access.

[Tracyjo]

14. It's not harder

It's just different. I still miss DU 2. I got used to 3. I'll get used to 4. I'm like Richard Gere In An Officer and a Gentleman. I got nowhere else to go.

[Marcus IM]

15. I use a bunch of audio workstations and plugins. DU 4 is as easy as pie.

And I like pie ...

.webp

[cbabe]

31. When asked for her first impressions of living in the White House, Michelle said:

They have great pie.

[Stuart G]

86. I like pie too.

[chouchou]

16. I think it's great.

Taken a few steps at a time.
Good new programs mean good new patience.

[Talitha]

17. For me the change was like getting used to a new car.

Except here, I'm not going 65mph.

[Hope22]

18. Harder but change is necessary so I didn't complain.

I did switch over to the Skinner version. It works better with my brain. I appreciate the work it takes to keep us up and running!

[Rebl2]

21. I find

I no longer look at DU as much because I have to click back and forth too much to go to a different section. It looks very boring to me now maybe because no color.

[yardwork]

23. I use DU on my phone and 4 is slightly easier.

I like some of the new features, like being able to rec individual posts.

It took me a few weeks to adjust to the new format and get used to it. I imagine if I went back to 3 now it would seem strange.

Edited to add: I really like the My Stuff button.

[Quixote1818]

25. I wish they would get rid of My Stuff flashing all the time. LOL That drives me nuts. nt

[Nittersing]

29. Click on "My Stuff" and then "account settings"

You can change it there.

[Quixote1818]

34. Thanks! Fixed. I was constantly clicking on it to get it to stop flashing

Mostly because of subscriptions. So I just adjusted subscriptions.

[Emrys]

26. Both versions had/have their positives and negatives.

On the whole, for me it's a wash. DU3 wasn't easy to navigate sometimes and had quirks that were unhelpful.

The home page could do with some attention - it feels less like a front window into DU and a snapshot of what's preoccupying people than it used to. I believe tweaks will be made in the fulness of time.

Other shortcomings I've discussed with EarlG (lack of a dedicated "My Posts" button in normal view being one), which may be addressed in due course.

I read it on a laptop and use Skinner Mode, because I'm a chicken and always use trainer wheels on new programs if they're available.

Other than that, it's not a radical change for me. Some stuff works better, other stuff works differently, and there are some new features which are interesting so far (e.g. the ability to rec individual replies rather than all those "+1" that used to litter discussions). The Navigate button is no more mystifying to use than was figuring the tortuous directory system in DU3. My Stuff groups together features that used to be spread across the screen under various headings, and other than the option to add forums to the left sidebar without having to subscribe to them, I can't think of any other improvements at the moment that I haven't mentioned above that would make a great difference to me.

[mzmolly]

27. I'm in Skinner Mode.

Boomer adjacent person that I am.

[Pharlo]

28. I find it different.

Neither harder nor easier, just different. It's just a matter of adapting to the new format.

[Nittersing]

30. Just different

Just have to adjust my clicking routine.

[Ocelot II]

32. Now that I'm used to it and found out how to make "MY STUFF" stop flashing,

I like it better than DU3. It's easier to read. The flashing yellow MY STUFF button was the one thing I hated and I was glad to make it go away.

[2naSalit]

35. About the same.

[Quixote1818]

36. It's about the same for me. Was easy to use before and easy now.

[Jilly_in_VA]

37. I voted Slightly Harder

although I generally like it. One reason is that I find it hard to decide where to put some of my stuff...some headers are gone entirely, like for iinstance, Latin America and Canada and UK. The other is that I really miss the old Home page. I mean REALLY!

[Merlot]

38. No difference between the two would be my answer.

[Peacetrain]

39. Not harder, just not used to it.. I miss the opening page of DU3

set up... otherwise it is fine, has some different features that I think I am going to like

[niyad]

40. Sadly, DU4 has done nothing to improve my experience. In fact,

has made it a bit difficult. Disappointing, since I understand how much time and effort have gone into it. I am happy for those it has helped, but I am not one of them.

[alittlelark]

41. 'Slightly Harder' - for me that has been good.

I used to spend far too much time cruising DU - I am on it much less frequently now and getting more stuff done.

[David__77]

42. It doesn't seem different to me.

After a couple days of engaging with it, I don't notice anything as different or "off".

[AlGorerhythm]

43. It's a lot like when my local grocery store decides to rearrange the layout.

It's nice that the staff worked so hard to make it better...but it's gonna be awhile before I can find everything I want.😂

[ecstatic]

45. For me, it's almost the same because I'm only on GD

these days. Back in the day I would go to my subscription groups but for some reason, I stopped doing that quite some time ago. Maybe due to the trauma of trump? Not sure.

My only suggestion is to bring back a dedicated My Posts button or icon to avoid the extra click after clicking the My Stuff button.

[Kali]

46. not harder or easier

a bit different is all, and I have pretty much already adapted. like the ability to rec individual posts and make notes while bookmarking OPs. wish I could set LBN to time instead of latest reply but that is pretty minor.

[EarlG]

47. To everyone posting and voting in this thread

My apologies to the people who are finding DU more difficult to use. It can be tough to get used to a new layout when you've been using the old one for so long.

If you do not know how to do something or find something on the new DU, I would be delighted to help you out -- just post your question in Community Help or send me a DU Mail message directly.

Most importantly, please understand -- as I have tried to explain over and over again -- that this is still a work in progress. On a project this large, with only two people working on it, it is impossible to anticipate every issue or problem that might come up, even with beta testing. That's why eventually you have to just put it out there and see how people respond.

Now that we are mostly past the initial stabilization phase, we are moving on to the next phase -- improvements and refinements. Currently on the slate are a home page overhaul, a function to collapse the left column, improved Share functionality, and there are a number of smaller improvements in the pipeline.

We're working as fast as we can, but again, these things take time. I appreciate your patience while we continue to work on it.

FWIW, I seem to recall the switch from DU2 to DU3 being way more traumatic because we threw out the entire moderating system at the same time. But after that, DU3 had 13 years to mature. DU4 has been around for just over two weeks. I'm hopeful that those of you who are having problems getting around at the moment will find that things get easier over time.

[Emile]

62. Thanks EarlG

[highplainsdem]

84. I know you're working hard to tweak DU4's design and try to fix bugs, EarlG, and I appreciate that,

but I think there are serious design problems, a downgrade from DU3 for most people, that may not be fixable that way.

And since you brought up the admins throwing out the entire moderating system with the switch from DU2 to DU3 - that probably was traumatic for some (I don't remember; caregiving had to be my top priority then), but there isn't anything like that causing problems with the transition now. Although I have noticed from posts in Community Help that apparently the jury system isn't working nearly as well with DU4 as it was with DU3, which is a problem.

DU3 simply gave users much easier navigation and a much better display of what this site has to offer than DU4 does. It was easy to find out where different forums were, and they were reachable in one click via the sidebar, or two clicks via the Forums & Groups tab at the top of every page.

A button labeled Navigate, opening to an array of buttons/links with the new category labels for all of what were once called groups, not only makes more clicks necessary, but is unnecessarily confusing.

I was trying to find the Atheists and Religion forums the other day, before responding to someone who was grieving. I believe in an afterlife, but I don't want to offend someone who posts a lot in those groups by mentioning that (I'm including Religion as well as Atheists because the Religion group is completely dominated by atheists). It was no problem to reach both those groups on DU3, either by the sidebar or the Forums & Groups page. They were both under Religion & Spirituality, where they belonged.

On DU4, Religion is under Issue Forums, and the Atheists & Agnostics group is under Alliance Forums.

And to look for them easily after clicking on the buttons for those forum categories, I had to click Forum Names to change the order of the list to alphabetical (again - I've already mentioned this in Community Help - that needs to be explained on the page so people know they can do that; most people and especially new users WON'T know that).

Compared to DU3, it's a nuisance, at best. A new design shouldn't make extra clicks and guessing games necessary.

Right now, there is NO page on DU4 that conveys as much about everything this site and community can offer as the old DU3 left sidebar and the old Forums & Groups page both did.

With DU4's navigation design, it's as if you took a vast community and chopped it up so at most only a portion at a time is visible.

Anyone new to DU using DU3 could get a much better immediate sense of what was here. Now they have to click on each of the categories for what used to be called groups and are now forums, and scroll down a long list that's jumbled by time of last post, and try to remember where on DU a particular forum/group that interests them is.

It should not have to be that hard, for anyone. It especially shouldn't have to be that hard for newcomers. What would have taken them seconds to skim over, with DU3, requires a lot more clicking and hunting now.

I applaud your wanting DU to work better for people using phones.

But with the switch, you've created a lot of obstacles elsewhere.

I really had no idea how this poll would turn out when I posted it.

It actually does skew in favor of DU4, simply because some people unhappy with DU4 are already taking breaks from it (as I've heard in email and as seems obvious from the lessened activity on the board). We all love this site. We all appreciate what you've done to keep it going. And, as I mentioned in the OP, a lot of DUers will tend to blame themselves first for any problems they're having with the site, and unfortunately some of the DUers who like DU4 have been happy to snipe at people who are having problems with it, discouraging them from speaking up.

Include those factors, and you should probably add at least a few points to those finding DU4 harder to use.

I don't know how you get from the current design for DU4 to anything as convenient - and as beautifully clear about everything DU has to offer - as DU3 was.

I have wondered if going back to DU3 and adding a Mobile Navigation tab mobile users cannot miss, linking to the Forum & Groups page, would do wonders for people accessing DU via their phones, since they didn't have that super-convenient sidebar (which was there from the start with DU3, as far as I can tell from the Wayback Machine).

[FemDemERA]

49. Slightly harder but

Overall positive experience. More clicks to get places and it felt especially at first that I was going into random places trying to figure things out but pretty sure that was just my learning curve. The inclusion of Skinner mode really helped. Also tips in several discussions.

My only real complaint I can think of is that I don’t like breaking news being at the bottom when viewing on the phone. It’s Better viewing on my laptop, but my personal preference would be that it was moved to a higher position, like after the featured stories and before trending discussions.

I tried the new version for a bit and then went with the skinner mode as it’s more visually appealing to me. I appreciate being given the option and also all the work that is put into this site!

[ProfessorGAC]

50. After A Week, Its Transparent

I find it neither easier nor harder.
I got used to it so fast, and customized enough, that it seems the same to me.

[CrispyQ]

51. I like it on my phone but on my desktop there's waaaayyy too much white space.

I want more info in less space. But on the phone is a nice improvement.

[underpants]

52. iPhone. More scrolling. Two clicks to see responses

Overall it’s just different.

[Faux pas]

54. .The

print on my phone I'd like trying to read writing on the head of a pin without a magnifying 🔎 glass. It's no enjoyable

[mike_c]

56. somewhat different appearance...

...but little change in ease of use. Once I turned off that flashing button it was no worries.

[Diamond_Dog]

57. I miss seeing our avatars.

Why did they get rid of them?

[Emrys]

58. You have an avatar next to your screen name above your reply.

Everybody does. This is on a laptop running Firefox in Skinner Mode.

[Diamond_Dog]

60. I am on an Ipad in Skinner mode

and I don’t see them anywhere.

[Emrys]

61. I'd bring this up with EarlG.

He's been very helpful indeed to those of us who've had issues, and identified a few bugs in the process (and sometimes fixed them surprisingly quickly).

Try posting an OP on DU Community Help here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1256

It might be worth looking though the topic titles first in case your issue already has a solution.

[question everything]

63. So am I, but I do see the avatars. We had problems some years ago

and the culprit was ad blockers… on Firefox.

What browser are you using?

[Diamond_Dog]

66. Chrome.

[question everything]

73. I am not an expert but it may be worth deactivating an ad blocker, if you have one

[Think. Again.]

59. I voted slightly easier...

...but I think that's because I use either a tablet or a phone for DU, and DU4 seems to be built for that.

In addition to being slightly easier for me to find my way around etc, I also find it a much more 'comfortable' experience (for lack of a better word), and I chalk that up to the mobile device -oriented design also.

[chillfactor]

64. Harder but getting used to it.

My new favorite is being able to hit TOP after reading through multiple replies to a thread.

[question everything]

65. It still bothers me that certain functions, like MyPosts, require two or three clicks for what used to be one

Also that LBN just gives the headlines, and that Advance Search the default is Main that does not include Editorials where so many stories are posted.

[Rebl2]

72. Exactly my thought about

having to click more. Also looks boring and I don’t use as much as used to.

[Mossfern]

67. I was a bit taken aback at first

but now I'm quite used to it. I really don't miss DU3.

[Happy Hoosier]

68. About the same, but....

It feels significantly faster to me, and love dark mode… much easier on the eyes. Also, love neing able to rec replies. I love DU4.

[Raine]

69. About the same. nt

[treestar]

70. No harder to me

And you can rec posts.

[Oopsie Daisy]

78. That's the ONE good addition.

And being able to use a yellow highlighter for words.

[Iggo]

74. Slightly harder, but so what?

It gets easier over time.

[Native]

75. I'm finding it about the same. It's less dated, but i don't find it any easier or harder.

[Oopsie Daisy]

76. It's still buggy. Even OBVIOUS bugs are ignored, for example:

Clicking the "RECOMMEND" button toggles the color and changes the text to "REC'D" but even with shorter text, it grows wider. (Maybe it's just a but with Firefox at a certain browser width... but when OBVIOUS bugs and flaws like that are going on, it just shows an inattention to detail.)

[marble falls]

79. Once I swapped to the DU3 screen it got easy.

[Jim__]

80. Slighty harder. When I log into DU, the first thing I want to do is read the new threads.

Under DU3, I only had to go to latest threads and work my way through it. I haven't found a list of new threads in DU4. Latest Discussions contains the new threads, but it also contains old threads mixed in.

[Ms. Toad]

81. It is objectively harder, because it adds clicks

To reach the same pages (and I've found no pages for which clicks are reduced). Every thing else is just getting used to where things live.

[BluesRunTheGame]

82. Neither easier or harder.

I like DU4 better than DU3. I think the admin did an impressive job. I tend to be averse to changes like this but it didn’t really bother me at all.

[MuseRider]

83. My response was slightly harder

but that is not a reflection on the site. As an older DUer I find it harder to remember where things are or how to get there easily or why I cannot find something. All that is on me. I will just keep plugging away until I am finally comfortable.

My problems are slight, very slight but mine. I could not be happier to see that we are all still here with this website so long lived and so functional.

Admins......my total thanks for the sanity that I still have. It us mostly due to this site.

[Elessar Zappa]

85. A little easier.

[dai13sy]

87. I thought it was harder when I first started using DU4 but the longer I use it and get use to it the more I like it.

I love to learn new stuff