Gaza is a 'textbook genocide'.

[RainWalker]

This is according to Raz Segal - an Israeli associate professor of Holocaust and Genocide studies at Stockton University in New Jersey.

Listen carefully to what he says.

It's based on facts, law and precedent.

The video is about 40 minutes long but I promise you'll walk away more than likely having learned something you previously didn't know 😀

[onecaliberal]

1. The people who need to listen won't bother because what's happening there doesn't bother them.

[malaise]

2. That simple

Rec

[Deuxcents]

27. Palestine was a thriving economy before 1947

It’s been a battlefield since Eastern Europe Jews began migrating to escape the Nazi regime. Today, there are no jobs and only a few permits given for Israeli jobs. We’re learning so many young people have been arrested n put in jails and when there’s no hope, we get radicalized people because they’re angry. There’s got to be a solution because this type of apartheid isn’t sustainable. And before heads explode, “apartheid is a policy that is founded on the idea of separating people based on racial or ethnic criteria “. The French term is “mettle a part”. This situation cannot go on without some real global repercussions.

[Basic LA]

51. Very well described & explained.

[Beastly Boy]

66. That's an incomplete statement to say thee least.

Between 1922 and 1947, the annual growth rate of the Jewish sector of the economy was 13.2%, mainly due to immigration and foreign capital, while that of the Arab was 6.5%. Per capita, these figures were 4.8% and 3.6% respectively. By 1936, the Jewish sector earned 2.6 times as much as Arabs.[1] Compared to Arab countries, the Palestinian Arab individuals earned slightly more.[2]

The country's largest industrial zone was in Haifa, where many housing projects were built for employees.[3] Haifa was the location of the Haifa oil refinery, established in the 1930s, and the end point of the Kirkuk-Haifa oil pipeline, transporting oil from the Kingdom of Iraq.

The Jaffa Electric Company was founded in 1923 by Pinhas Rutenberg, and was later absorbed into a newly created Palestine Electric Company. Palestine Airways was founded in 1934, Angel Bakeries in 1927, and the Tnuva dairy in 1926.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mandatory_Palestine

And how many types of apartheid are there?

[David__77]

96. Well put. The cost of the current setup is rising.

It appears much more stable than it truly is.

[EX500rider]

118. "apartheid"

And how many Israeli's are Arabs?
The Arab community, spanning various religions excluding Judaism, accounts for 21% (around 2.048 million) of the Israeli population.
Gaza is not part of Israel, their "apartheid" is having a border with Gaza.

[RainWalker]

5. Sadly I believe you're correct

Many have been treating this like a sportsball game and it's sad because the actual victims are the innocent people on BOTH sides.

[onecaliberal]

6. They can't be bothered to care that the brown people

Have been pushed off their land and killed for 50 years. They also love to
Ignore the huge protests we were seeing in Israel against their government.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/22/1189627225/israel-protests-netanyahu-judiciary

[gopiscrap]

88. exactly

and the only reason why fucking Isreal gets away with their shit, is because the US taxpayer is financing them to the hilt

[totodeinhere]

111. Both Israelis and Palestinians are Semites

They are not brown people. Both Israelis and Palestinians are white Caucasian people. Actually both Israelis and Palestinians have been living on that land for centuries.

[Celerity]

22. +2

[Beastly Boy]

71. The people who need to listen should learn what genocide entails first.

And then compare the established definition of genocide to the opinions of a lone scholar. They will see a lot of inconsistencies in the latter that deviate from the former.

[obamanut2012]

3. I can understand why people don't think it is even if I disagree, but

There is NO WAY folks can legitimately argue that it isn't ethnic cleansing, because it is also textbook that.

Thanks for posting.

[Beastly Boy]

75. Actually, there is no textbook that defines ethnic cleansing in legal terms.

And the various authoritative sources that have defined ethnic cleansing over the years all agree on one thing: it involves large scale sustained efforts to remove an undesirable ethnic group from an area to make the area more ethnically homogeneous

Which area under Israel's influence or control has become more homogeneous due to Israel's actions in the last 50 years?

[RandomNumbers]

4. Needs a transcript

The stated purpose of Israel is to obliterate Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist group, not an ethnic group. So it fails the first point he makes. Not listening to 40 minutes after that, although I am interested. If someone provides a transcript I will bookmark it to read.

I am curious - does he get into the stated intention of Hamas to drive Jews from Israel? To the genocidal and war criminal acts of the Hamas terrorists?

[RainWalker]

7. He's talking about Israel's treatment

of the Palestinian people.

Hamas isn't the topic of conversation as they're not committing mass genocide which has a very specific confrontation associated with it. Mass murder though? Absolutely.

I don't know if there's a transcript available. I'll definitely keep my eyes open though.

[Big Blue Marble]

8. If you are following the conversation in Israel, many have express

what can only be genocidal intent. These are ministers of the cabinet and Knesset.

Omar Bartov, a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University,
an Israeli,.has written an OP in the NYT:

"What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide

My greatest concern watching the Israel-Gaza war unfold is that there is genocidal intent, which can easily tip into genocidal action. On Oct. 7, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Gazans would pay a “huge price” for the actions of Hamas and that the Israel Defense Forces, or I.D.F., would turn parts of Gaza’s densely populated urban centers “into rubble.” On Oct. 28, he added, citing Deuteronomy, “You must remember what Amalek did to you.” As many Israelis know, in revenge for the attack by Amalek, the Bible calls to “kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings.”

"https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html

This is the most disturbing statement, not from a right-winger, but from an retired general who is
advising the Government and the IDF.

Let’s Not be Intimidated by the World
Giora Eiland, Yedioth Ahronoth, November 19, 2023

"The way to win the war faster and at a lower cost for us requires a system collapse on the other side and not the mere killing of more Hamas fighters. The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer and reduce casualties among IDF soldiers. And no, this is not about cruelty for cruelty’s sake since we don’t support the suffering of the other side as an end but as a means."

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/

We are watching that system collapse before our eyes.

[Duppers]

15. You can justify it any way you want to. But...

It is still genocide!

[enid602]

41. expulsion

More likely a genocide/expulsiion combo. Per Jimmy Carter: “Israeli policy is to confiscate Palestinian territory.—“Jimmy Carter, former U.S. President and Nobel Peace Prize laureate, in an interview with Elisabeth Braw of Metro International on November 12, 2012, after his return from the Middle East . . .”

[David__77]

50. That statement of Carters seems is very clear and correct.

[David__77]

49. Wow what a shocking piece of evidence that person created.

Also, so fantastically destructive to the cause he allegedly supports, ultimately.

[brush]

12. What about all the innocent non-combatants killed...

by the air strikes obliterating civilian housing by the IDF trying to hit Hamas?

Are we just to call them collateral damage?

It's 12,000 and counting v the 1500 Israelis killed on Oct. 7. That's a ratio of nearly 10 Palestinian lives to 1 Israeli life.

I would think that would be more than sufficient to stop the air strikes which have laid ruin to much of Gaza.

Ground forces, now deployed, will have to ferret out the Hamas terrorists from their tunnels. The bombings weren't doing it...killed a lot of civilians though.

The

[claudette]

137. Regardless of the

answers to your questions, killing thousands of INNOCENT Palestinians under the banner of "getting rid of Hamas" or "self-defense" is against ALL moral laws. It's shameful that the world allows this right-wing government to carry out such a violent mass murder.

[2naSalit]

9. This is...

Bibi's wet dream and he will carry on until he is stopped.

And from the looks of it, nobody who could stop him will because they don't disagree.

[TwilightZone]

11. Hamas isn't an ethnic group.

If one believes that Israel's target is Hamas, it isn't genocide, because terrorist organizations aren't considered a targeted class where genocide definitions are concerned.

If one believes that Israel's target is Palestinians, in general, with the intent of eliminating them, then an argument can be made that's it's genocide.

Hamas, on the other hand, has clearly stated that their goal is to eliminate Jews. That is textbook genocide.

[RainWalker]

13. He's talking about

Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people which is far beyond the scope of Hamas. Settler violence, West Bank, the mass killing of innocent civilians.

And keep in mind several high profile Israeli politicians have called for the complete erasure of Gaza.

[TwilightZone]

14. Calling for and acting on are two different things.

Genocide is all about intent. Intent is fundamental to any definition of genocide.

It's genocide *only* if Israel's intent - openly stated (like Hamas) or completely overt or somewhere in between - is to target Palestinians with the intent of eliminating them.

The opinions of Israelis who aren't in the position to make decisions are irrelevant. The intent of those who are making the decisions is what's relevant.

[Think. Again.]

54. Genocide isn't possible...

...unless it's openly-stated?

[Big Blue Marble]

105. The statements of intent are being made by those in the government

including the Prime Minister, Netanyahu.

On Oct. 28, he added, citing Deuteronomy, “You must remember what Amalek did to you.” As many Israelis know, in revenge for the attack by Amalek, the Bible calls to “kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings.”e"

That should concern everyone.

[totodeinhere]

113. And Hamas and other terrorist groups

have called for the complete erasure of Israel. It seems that a lot of people at DU are only taking one side in a very complex situation.
.

[brush]

18. You must not have heard that the Quataris, the US and other...

international entities exerted pressure on Hamas to agree to the just negotiated "pause" of military action so although they may not be a single ethnic group, they are a target, and I dare say so are the Palestinians in Gaza.

Another phrase that pertains to them both is "in the way."

[Elessar Zappa]

16. Hamas is the one that want genocide.

While I’m sure there’s some Israeli politicians who would like to eliminate Palestinians, it isn’t the intention of the Israeli government. Do you think Biden and other democrats would support genocide?

[Chainfire]

19. Hamas wants it, but Israel is carrying it out. Is that equivalence?

[egduj]

24. You believe it's Israel's intent to completely destroy everyone of Palestinian descent?

No deflection, no equivalence, just yes or no. Genocide has a very definite definition, and I'm trying to ascertain if you actually believe that or you're just ignorant of the definition.

[uponit7771]

52. No, but it might be Netanyahu's and that's horrible enough

[egduj]

109. "Might" is an evasive answer along the same lines as "maybe."

Since the other one didn't wanter to answer, I'll ask you. In your opinion, Is Netanyahu the equivalent of Hitler in that he want to annihilate an entire ethnic group?

[uponit7771]

143. Closer to Andrew Jackson than Hitler and that's still horrible

[AloeVera]

130. You might want to rephrase your question?

I agree one should not be ignorant of the definition of genocide, and I'm not talking about the one in the Oxford Dictionary.

According to international law, the physical element of genocide is defined as:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

So killing at least 15,000 plus 7,000 presumed dead under rubble, and injuring at least 35,000 with unknown number more killed/injured - that seems not high enough for some to consider it genocide. I don't know what the magic number could be, but that is a lot of human suffering. Not counting the mental anguish and harm to the rest of the group, which you'll note is also included.

Whether Israel has the intent or not - intent being difficult to prove - the actual acts committed could be interpreted as falling under genocidal acts.

The most worrying to me is the conditions of life created (with intent, in my view) and the impending human costs, which could be catastrophic.

In that case the debate should be over, but we'll still have doubters.

[egduj]

141. I'm not asking anyone to prove intent, just if, in their opinion, if it's Israel (or Netanyahu's) intent to annihilate

the Palistinians.

And now I'll ask you. Yes or no, do you believe that it is the goal by either Israel or Netanyahu to annihilate the Palistinian people.

Are you the brave one that will finally answer the question?

[AloeVera]

142. Honest debate.

As I've shown you, genocide is not the complete destruction/annihilation of everyone of Palestinian descent.

Since you've chosen to ignore that reality, and have not rephrased your question, it would be ridiculous for me or anyone to answer a question based on a false premise.

If you want debate, you need to ask honest questions and people will be glad to answer.

[wyldwolf]

17. The textbook definition of 'genocide' is...

... "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Sounds more like Hamas. Hopefully, the Palestinian people will grow tired of their terrorist overlords intentionally placing them in harm's way.

[Cha]

32. Rec.. TY.. Hamas the Terrorist Org craves "genocide" to Wipe OUT Israel.. fucking

"textbook" or Whatever.

Link to tweet

Hamas Butchers Started Their Genlocide Shit on Oct 7th..

Link to tweet

And Shit yeah they promise to Repeat it Ad infinitum..

Link to tweet

[peggysue2]

35. Hey Cha!

The clip you posted of Ghazi Hamad? He also said quite bluntly that Hamas has no responsibility to protect Palestinians. That's up to Israel and the UN, he claimed.

So much for Hamas being a governing body when the safety of their own citizenry is of so little concern. Of course, we've seen what their interest is: the slaughter and destruction of Jews. Why? Because they're terrorist organization posing as a government and the obliteration of Israel is mandated in their charter.

Hamas is the enemy. Has been from the start.

Thanks for the other clips! Btw, that first one is really ugly.

[Cha]

43. Aloha PeggySue! I remember that about Asshole Ghazi Hamad saying HAMAS had NO

responsibility to protect Palestinians.. it was up to Israel.. I had forgotten the UN part. I'll try to find that.. TY I can't find it!

And, so many want to Protect HAMAS.. when Israel Points out what they're doing they mindlessly Chime. basically.. It's All Israel's fault.

But while I was looking for it I found this..

The truth of Hamas is in its charter

Similarly, a close reading of Hamas’ charter, which was created in 1987 and revised in 2017, explains a lot about its decision to slaughter innocent Jewish civilians, and unleash a reaction that has inevitably claimed innocent Palestinian lives as well.

After Hamas’ takeover, Israel imposed a blockade on Gaza, controlling travel and trade in and out of the coastal enclave. Hamas, which the United States, Israel, the European Union, Canada, Egypt, and Japan designate as a terrorist organization, had by 2006 conducted terror attacks in Israel that killed 506 and wounded thousands. After the blockade, the number of attacks plummeted.

But Hamas has never changed its aspirations to wrest control of all of Israel by killing its Jews— a goal you will see clearly when you read the Hamas charter, as I did on Tuesday

The charter’s description of Jews echoes millennia of antisemitic tropes.

More to Read..
https://forward.com/opinion/564190/hamas-charter-truth/

Sorry this took so long.. phone calls, etc..

In Solidarity💕

[SoFlaBro]

121. That piece of shit is another Hamas scumbag. Piss on that fucking turd.

[Sugarcoated]

46. They

won't watch, won't bother because what happened on Oct 6th doesn't bother them.
That simple.

[claudette]

138. Sounds like

what the Israeli government is doing to innocent Palestinians in Gaza. If Israel can't defeat Hamas, please tell me how you expect INNOCENT Palestinians living under Israel's control can do it?

[wyldwolf]

144. Based on the definition of the term 'genocide,'

... show how Israel has said, implied, or acted on a belief that Palestinians should be destroyed.

I'll wait. Take your time.

But if you're belief is completely destroying Hamas is genocide, then sign me up.

[Happy Hoosier]

20. Segal is not a neutral academic.

He has a political axe to grind.

If the civilian casualties in Gaza are “genocide,” then the word has no unique meaning.

The use of that term in this case cheapens it, and undermines legitimate criticism of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians with hyperbole.

[Think. Again.]

78. You are assuming...

...that over 10,000 Palestinian deaths are unintended "civilian casualties" and not

"... "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

That's quite an assumption to make about an extremely well-funded military such as IDF.

[Happy Hoosier]

81. Do you have actual evidence to the contrary?

I‘ve seen you parroting Hamas propaganda and asserting claims without evidence for weeks.

If Israel wanted to slaughter civilians, the casualties would be an order of magnitude or more higher.

I do not believe you are an honest interlocutor.

Have a good Thanksgiving .

[Think. Again.]

83. I have not parroted any propaganda...

...and I have not made any claims.

I speak from my own thoughts, which is why I engage in discussions.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

84. If you aren't sharing your opinion why are you even posting?

Don’t answer, we know why.

[Think. Again.]

85. Perhaps you misunderstood my response...

...I wrote...

" I have not parroted any propaganda...

...and I have not made any claims.

I speak from my own thoughts, which is why I engage in discussions."

I do share my opinions, which is the definition of engaging in discussions.

[Happy Hoosier]

98. "My own thoughts..."

Except I’ve actually read your posts over the weeks.

You are not an honest interlocutor, in my opinion.

Good day.

[Think. Again.]

100. If you were being honest...

...and had actually read my posts, you would know that my posts consist of my own thoughts.

Feel free to go back and read them now.

[EX500rider]

21. Trying to remember which "genocide" involved the attacking party warning the victims to leave..

The call to Mahmoud Shaheen came at dawn.
It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.
He'd been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.

He'd heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. "You need to escape," somebody in the street shouted, "because they will bomb the towers".
As he left his building and crossed the road, looking for a safe place, his phone lit up.
It was a call from a private number.

"I'm speaking with you from Israeli intelligence," a man said down the line, according to Mahmoud.
That call would last more than an hour - and it would be the most terrifying call of his life.


Yes, Israel just wants to kill civilians, right?
More of the story @ BBC:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079

[RainWalker]

23. Now do settler violence in the West Bank

This isn't only about things that happened after October 7.

[EX500rider]

45. Why, is that pretend "genocide" too?

[RainWalker]

69. "Pretend genocide"?

There's nothing "pretend" about genocide.
And many seem to believe that this conflict began on October 7th when in fact it's gone on for decades. Focus on the larger issue at hand here. The atrocities committed by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people.

Look what's been happening in the West Bank for years with settler violence, forced evictions, snipers injuring and killing little kids. It's not where there's different genocides happening but rather 1. Everything is a brick in the wall.

[lapucelle]

86. "There's nothing 'pretend' about genocide" is exacxtly why this agenda-driven talking point is so offensive.

Israel is not engaged in genocide; Hamas is engaged in genocide, and now that masks are off, the world can see exactly who has no problem with terrorists trying to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

[RainWalker]

90. See stage 10

Genocide is happening and it shouldn't be denied but confronted head on. The narrative of "it's not happening" is very dangerous.

[EX500rider]

87. No, nothing pretend about real genocide, none in Israel or West Bank or Gaza however

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides

[RainWalker]

93. It's genocide what's happening

[EX500rider]

94. Trying to destroy Hamas is not "genocide", it is standard warfare

Gaza & the people will still be there after Hamas is destroyed

[elocs]

108. The Palestinians of Gaza are not "Hamas" and do not control what Hamas does.

However, the innocent civilians of Gaza get to pay the price for what Hamas has done and Hamas could care less that is what is happening. I fail to see and understand, given that, how Israel can feel so justified and self righteous about killing so many Palestinians to get Hamas. Who believes that the people of Gaza thought it was a great idea for Hamas to put tunnels under the hospital and use it for a command center?
Frankly, with what has happened in Gaza over the years, Israel couldn't have done a better job of creating terrorists if they had tried when a population of 2.5 million is kept in abject poverty and having no hope of a better future, trapped between Israel and the sea.

Now let the DU pissing match continue.

[The Magistrate]

110. The Best Construction That Can Be Placed On Their Relation To Hamas

Is that the Palestinians of Gaza fear Hamas more than they fear Israel's armed forces.

It is unclear whether this remains a sensible calculation.

The sadistic murder spree Hamas indulged in on October 7 has altered the emotional landscape, perhaps decisively, in Israel. Brought down to cases, the Hamas battle technique depends on Israel practicing a good deal of self-restraint. Neither the Israeli populace nor its military forces seem in the mood for this at present....


"Fuck with the bull, you get the horn."

[CincyDem]

128. Maybe it's because they know both Hamas and the IDF up close and personal.

Independent of how much pain the IDF creates, they know it will be a fraction of what Hamas would do to a civilian population that showed and disloyalty.

[EX500rider]

117. Innocent civilians pay the price in every war but that does not make it genocide

I will wait while you find me the war where zero civilian's died. Then I will wait even longer while you find me one where the attacking force calls you and warns you to leave before the bombing.
tick tock

[Cha]

34. Exactly. Did the Genocidal GD Hamas Warn Israel?

Link to tweet

Hamas Butchers Started Their Genlocide Shit on Oct 7th..

Link to tweet

And Shit yeah they promise to Repeat it Ad infinitum..

Link to tweet

[LexVegas]

25. Hamas funded propaganda. nt

[lapucelle]

26. John Kirby on genocide...

Link to tweet

[Cha]

37. Rec.. TY Here's some more info on "Throwing the word genocide around"..

This interested me..

Inside Hollywood's Divide Over Israel

*Snip*

There’s just no excuse for not condemning Hamas and demanding the release of the hostages. Hollywood was quick to declare Black Lives Matter, as they should, and Time’s Up, as they should, and myriad other important causes,” Greenblatt tells Variety. “There’s plenty of room for criticism of Israel or to voice concerns about the ongoing war in Gaza, but that doesn’t provide celebrities and industry reps with an open license to wage unfair accusations against Israel, such as accusing it of ‘apartheid’ or ‘genocide’ or, worse, to celebrate the actions of Hamas terrorists.”

When it comes to Israel, the use of the word “genocide” has long been considered problematic in Hollywood. In 2021, Mark Ruffalo apologized for suggesting Israel was committing genocide and added, “It’s not accurate, it’s inflammatory, disrespectful & is being used to justify antisemitism here & abroad.” In 2014, Javier Bardem and celebrate the actions of Hamas terrorists.”
Penelope Cruz signed a letter that called Israel’s operations in Gaza “genocide.” They both later clarified their positions after being widely criticized.

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/hollywood-divide-over-israel-melissa-barrera-1235804452/

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=18474894

ETA~ TY for THIS!

Link to tweet

/history

[sheshe2]

39. +1

[David__77]

28. I think the goal is to make civilian life in Gaza impossible.

In terms of death, unfortunately it remains to be seen how it will turn out.

I absolutely understand the concerns about genocide. This is a truly shocking and extreme series of attacks on civilian infrastructure and people.

[TexasDem69]

29. It's not

You can keep saying it but it’s not. Attacking Hamas murderers embedded in Gaza is not genocide.

[David__77]

30. That was the same argument about the war in Vietnam.

.

[TexasDem69]

31. It's not a matter of opinion

It’s a fact that Israel is not engaging in genocide based on every accepted understanding of the term. Israel is fighting a war. Believe whatever you want, but don’t expect others to agree with your complete misunderstanding of the concept of genocide.

[RainWalker]

33. That's why Israel has been referred to the ICC

I get you support Israel, that's fine, but what they're doing is indeed genocide. Let's not let this conflict seperate us from our humanity.

[lapucelle]

58. That chart doesn't reflect how Israel is conducting the war against Hamas,

but it does represent Hamas's October 7 MO and goal and what their leaders promise to continue doing until Israel no longer exists.

Anti-Israel activists from the BDS movement, the folks ripping down hostage posters, extremists like Linda Sarsour who warn people against "humanizing Israelis", and anyone chanting "from the river to the sea" might want to take a look at the chart. They're complicit.

Link to tweet

[David__77]

36. I said I think the goal is to make civilian life in Gaza impossible.

[moniss]

53. Yes and I've said from the beginning

that was the strategy in order to do an annexation of all or part of Gaza either officially or just in a de facto manner. Because who is going to stop it? Nobody will. Who will stop the ongoing process of taking territory and assets in the West Bank and East Jerusalem? Nobody will. The UN can't even do anything meaningful in this matter, and hasn't for decades, because there is always a certain supposed "impartial" party that prevents it. Sad reality but it is the truth. The Middle Eastern countries and the Palestinians have been correct from the beginning not to trust or rely upon the word or assurances of the UN.

[David__77]

64. I agree.

Crazy too that overt annexation has even occurred in the case of East Jerusalem, and hundreds of thousands of residents are treated as “guests” without any citizenship rights.

[BlueCheeseAgain]

40. To use the word genocide in this context cheapens its meaning.

Using it like this does more to devalue the word. Frankly, it also discredits the person saying it.

[madaboutharry]

42. It also disrespects and dishonors the memory

of the victims of all the genocides that have taken multitudes of millions of lives throughout history. Not only The Holocaust, but also the Armenian genocide, the Rape of Nanking, Cambodia, Rawanda, and the genocide of Native Americans. This is only a partial list.

People using that term now, in the context of this war, are ignorant of history. They are ignorant of the vile motives of Hamas, a terror organization whose purpose is the genocide of the people being accused of genocide.

[JCMach1]

48. It's really unfortunate so many on the left are conflating Hamas

with the Palestinian people... Usually in the same breathe they are separating the RW government of Israel from the everyday people.

The mental gymnastics involved in that move.

[Patton French]

44. Hmmm...

So, Hamas fighting to eliminate all isralies is ok? That’s not genocide but this is? That is informative.

[Think. Again.]

55. The Op is not about hamas.

[The Magistrate]

59. Why Not?

[Think. Again.]

61. Because...

Palestinian doesn't equal hamas, just as...

Mexican doesn't equal rapist

American doesn't equal maga

Trans doesn't equal child predator

Black doesn't equal criminal

You get the picture (I hope).

[The Magistrate]

62. I Hear The Echoes Of Toddlers Past Here....

Hamas is the force in the field currently having launched a campaign of sadistic murder in furtherance of its openly stated genocidal intent.

Seems this ought to be noted in a discussion of genocide where this war Hamas kicked into being by a campaign of sadistic murder is being fought.

There would not be one bomb being dropped on Gaza, not one person killed there by Israeli forces, were it not for the campaign of sadistic murder embarked upon by Hamas on October 7.

That ought to be noted, too....

[Think. Again.]

63. Please stay focused...

...the OP is not discussing hamas.

[The Magistrate]

72. I Am, Quite Focused

Not one bomb would have been dropped in Gaza, not one person there killed, save for the campaign of sadistic murder engaged in by Hamas on October 7.

There's really not much else to say about it. Certainly nothing to be said that hasn't been said for decades, by all parties and all those who align with them. The problem remains the same: the balance of power is asymmetric. The force weakest in conventional terms seeks to equalize matters by establishing itself among a mass of non-combatants, who, it can be argued plausibly, at need, don't even particularly support the gunmen sheltering among them. Since any attempt to engage gunmen thus situated must bring harm to people who aren't, great lashings of outrage can be whipped up at actions taken by the militarily stronger party when need to engage the gunmen becomes acute. This acute need the gunmen take care to provide by atrocious attacks on their enemy's civilian population. It's a foul business, even when done in a good cause.


"The fact that have-nots exist in despair, discrimination and deprivation does not automatically endow them with any special qualities of charity, justice, wisdom, mercy or moral purity. They are people, with all the faults of people — greed, envy, suspicion, intolerance — and once they get on top they can be just as bigoted as the people who once oppressed them."

[Think. Again.]

76. Well it's true...

...you are indeed very focused on certain aspects...

[AZSkiffyGeek]

89. Kind of how you have a big blind spot whenever a certain group of terrorists who started all this is mentioned

I wonder why that is? Don't answer, we know.

[Think. Again.]

95. This "started" long along ago.

...and no, you don't "know" anything about me.

(And unless I'm mistaken, isn't only British monarchy that uses the Royal 'We'?)

[AZSkiffyGeek]

97. So not only do you not understand the definition of genocide

You don't understand the definition of "we".

[Think. Again.]

99. Ah, I see...

...it might be best for all you to add an 'S' to the end of 'AZSkiffyGeek'.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

102. Or maybe, just maybe you could learn that not everyone on this board

Agrees with the terrorist propaganda and hot takes you've breathlessly been sharing since Oct. 8. 2600 posts in six weeks is pretty impressive, da?

[Think. Again.]

104. For some reason...

...you're deliberately over-rating my participation in these open discussions.

It's flattering, but not true.

And I'm curious, is 'AZSkiffyGeek' an actual board with a chairman, etc.? And please don't take this wrong, but do you all live within the same biological head or are you separate individuals gathered around one keyboard?

[Patton French]

126. Thank you for proving my point.

You rock!

[Think. Again.]

134. Glad I could help...

...although I can't take credit, I really don't know how you it see it that way.

[RainWalker]

57. Who said anything about Hamas?

[The Magistrate]

60. Why?

[RainWalker]

65. Because my post isn't about Hamas

It's about the genocide that Israel is committing against the Palestinian people.

[EllieBC]

68. It never is. You just pretend they don't exist

and this entire thing has been big bad Jews going after poor little Muslims.

[RainWalker]

70. Care to prove that assertion?

Personal attacks, really?
Pretty uncalled for. Do better please.

[EllieBC]

73. It's not a personal attack.

Your systematically find a way to never make it about Hamas when you know it is ultimately about them.

[RainWalker]

77. It's a personal attack

And you're doing it again right here.
If you dislike what I say then why not simply just put me on ignore? That seems like the logical thing to do.

[The Magistrate]

74. And, What?

You are stating as a fact something a good many people regard as an opinion, and one ill-formed at that. Why on earth do you even pretend affront over people being moved to oppose or rebut your charge of the gravest human crime when they do not agree your opinion is the established fact you believe it to be? How is it even possible to discuss the actions of one party to a war without note of the other party participating?

[RainWalker]

79. Let's not minimize things

What you consider an opinion others consider a fact. And there's a great many who believe what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people is indeed genocide. I urge you to look at the entire conflict and not only things which have happened after October 7th..

Genocide refers to the intentional and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of a specific racial, ethnic, religious, or national group. It involves acts committed with the intent to eliminate the targeted group by means such as killing members of the group, causing serious physical or mental harm, imposing conditions that can lead to their physical destruction, preventing births within the group, or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

[The Magistrate]

80. This Is Laughable, Ma'am

"What you consider an opinion others consider a fact."

That is their opinion. Others may, in fact others do, differ in their opinions on the question.

Opinions are formed by examining facts, and this will of course interact with whatever understandings and preconceptions a person brings to the examination. I expect we would both agree a good many people are being killed and maimed in Gaza. You consider it a fact that they are being killed because of a fixed intent to exterminate a people. That we do not agree on, and we do not because your opinion of the significance of a fact is not itself a fact. I do not agree Israeli military actions subsequent to the campaign of sadistic murder begun by Hamas on October 7 are undertaken with the intent of exterminating the Arabs of Palestine in Gaza. I expect revenge is in the minds of many who pull the trigger of a weapon, but I no more expect sainthood than I do perfection in human affairs, particularly not in warfare.

[Patton French]

127. That is exactly my point,

Which has been very well articulated.

[Mosby]

47. I thought comparing Israelis to Nazis is against the rules here.

Guess not.

[RainWalker]

67. Who said anything about Nazi's?

[David__77]

82. Maybe it is in the long video?

Nazis certainly had no monopoly on wars of annihilation.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

92. Hamas and their useful idiots in the West are proving that daily

[AZSkiffyGeek]

91. Do you not know who committed genocide against the Jews?

Maybe you should consult some international doctor's, they can explain history, since you apparently don't understand what the Holocaust was.

[PBateman70]

106. What?

When did that happen? Comparing Israelis to Nazis being against the rules? I must be oblivious to that rule but I would appreciate someone showing me where that is in all seriousness.

I'm not sure I want to be apart of a discussion group with a rule like that.
Anyone who acts in a similar manner to Nazis (hopefully no one is) should be compared to Nazis. Why should the Israelis be special in that regard? No the same rules should apply to all.

[Mosby]

112. You don't see a problem with comparing Israelis to Nazis?

Last edited Thu Nov 23, 2023, 09:04 PM - Edit history (1)

It's something that antisemites like to do, making statements like "Jews are the new nazis" or "Israel is doing to Palestinians what the Nazis did to Jews".

Here's some more info about the rules here from the I/P group:

If you feel great affinity to groups who are promoting hate in the Middle East such as Kahane, or Hamas; feel there is a Jewish conspiracy governing US foreign policy or control of the media; or believe supporters of Islam or Palestinian Nationalism are terrorists, then you are probably likely to be banned.


Proper use of certain words:

Please exercise extreme caution and sensitivity when using the words "anti-Semitism" or "Zionism." There is a wide range of opinion on the meaning of these words. If you must use them, please make sure your intended meaning is clear.

Do not use the term "Zionist" to mean "Jew" or "Israeli." Do not use the term "Jew" to mean "Israeli".

Do not call Palestinians "terrorists" unless you are actually talking about people who blow up cafes or busses filled with civilians.
Do not compare Middle East regional leaders and parties to Hitler or the Nazis. Use of these terms is considered inflammatory and should be avoided.

Do not call other members of this message board "terror apologist," "Palestinian apologist," "Israeli apologist," "Nazi," "Fascist," "Sharonist," "Likudist", etc.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1134287

[PBateman70]

114. Not answering your questions in this reply

Do not use the term "Zionist" to mean "Jew" or "Israeli." Do not use the term "Jew" to mean "Israeli".

I do not understand the above. Aren't most Israelis Zionists? Obviously not all Israelis are jews. Trying to understand the above statement.

And I don't see anywhere in the statement you posted where comparing (X) to Nazis is banned. I see all kinds of groups being compared to Nazis on here all the time.

[PBateman70]

115. Your questions

:You don't see a problem with comparing Israelis to Nazis?
It's something that antisemites like to do, making statements like "Jews are the new nazis" or "Israel is doing to Palestinians what the Nazis did to Jews"."

Well since I'm not an antisemite this doesn't apply to me. Jews, Semites, Israelis, whomever should unquestionably all have the rights as everyone else. So no, I see nothing wrong with calling anyone who may be acting like a Nazi, a Nazi. Do mot see that as an issue.

Also, I don't see where it's banned to compare a group with Nazis. I see it done on here all the time.

[PBateman70]

107. What?

When did that happen? Comparing Israelis to Nazis being against the rules? I must be oblivious to that rule but I would appreciate someone showing me where that is in all seriousness.

I'm not sure I want to be apart of a discussion group with a rule like that.
Anyone who acts in a similar manner to Nazis (hopefully no one is) should be compared to Nazis. Why should the Israelis be special in that regard? No the same rules should apply to all.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

129. Wanting to quit a discussion board because you can't post antisemitic slurs is telling

Enjoy your stay...

[PBateman70]

131. Crazy

That's an insane way to look at it. Wow. What antisemitic slurs did I post?

[PBateman70]

132. Wow

That's an insane way to look at it. Wow. What antisemitic slurs did I post?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

133. Sea Lions, man

[PBateman70]

135. Good night

No idea what you're referring to. Sea lions?

[RandySF]

56. No

[RandySF]

101. We're going to ignore Oct. 7, aren't we?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

103. Of course, the whole argument collapses when you factor that in NT

[onecaliberal]

116. Flattening the place 2 million people live and killing

15,000 (likely many more) is ignoring to you?

[Cha]

119. Yeah, Israel is not ignoring it but there are

are others who don't seem to remember.

Link to tweet

Hamas Butchers Started Their Genlocide Shit on Oct 7th..

Link to tweet

And Shit yeah they promise to Repeat it Ad infinitum..

Link to tweet

[claudette]

140. No, never ignore it

Use it to justify the destruction of Gaza and murder of innocent Palestinians as revenge? NEVER.

What Hamas did to Israel is atrocious but killing innocents as revenge will not solve the problem or get rid of Hamas. In fact, it is now teaching a whole new generation of young, innocent Palestinians to hate their occupiers.

[Mosby]

120. Complete debunking of Segal's charge of genocide.

It's 24 posts long I think.

Link to tweet

[SoFlaBro]

122. A massacre at worst. A "genocide"? Not even close.

[RainWalker]

123. Why are you posting things from a right winger?

That person you shared the tweet from is a right winger who works for NGOmonitor, a far right wing group based in Israel.

[Mosby]

125. He writes for a lot of publications like the Times of Israel and Tablet

Here's his bio from ToI, he's an academic type.

Salo Aizenberg is an independent scholar and author who writes about antisemitism and the Israel-Palestine conflict. His book, Hatemail: Anti-Semitism on Picture Postcards, was a finalist for a National Jewish Books Award in 2013. Salo's articles have appeared in Fathom Journal, Tablet Magazine, and HonestReporting, and he also wrote two reports for NGO Monitor countering the HRW & Amnesty reports that claim Israel practices apartheid. Mr. Aizenberg has a BS from the State University of New York at Binghamton and an MBA from Columbia University Business School.

[claudette]

139. Except that

anyone with a brain and a heart can see what terror is being wrought on innocent Palestinians - call it genocide or whatever else you want to call it.

[claudette]

136. Truly

a disgrace. It's astonishing to me that the group who suffered the most during WWII has seem to have forgotten what violence that hatred of them incited.