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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSorry, I'm not buying it
I sympathize with both Palestinians and Israelis. What I can't buy is, the idea that Israel would knowingly continue to give itself a black eye and worsen its public image by attacking schools or hospitals that were NOT being used as Hamas hideouts. It just would not make sense that they would increase the pressure on themselves to end the war they seem determined to continue.
When they say they precisely targeted a part of the school that was being used by Hamas, I believe it. I don't necessarily support it, as there are limits to how precise a strike can be and I don't support "collateral damage" a.k.a. the deaths of children and faculty -- I don't see this as a necessity. I feel there are other ways. But the shrill cries that Israel is purely evil and would be hitting these targets just to kill Palestinians, then blaming it on Hamas... it's just not a tenable position IMO and - I hate to say it, because it's fellow DUers - but as a non-Jew, it seems anti-Semitic to me.

Tarzanrock
(654 posts)These are war crimes.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/21/who-are-the-experts-backing-icc-warrants-against-israel-hamas-leaders
https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state
"Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant
On the basis of evidence collected and examined by my Office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin NETANYAHU, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav GALLANT, the Minister of Defence of Israel, bear criminal responsibility for the following war crimes and crimes against humanity committed on the territory of the State of Palestine (in the Gaza strip) from at least 8 October 2023:
Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the Statute;
Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health contrary to article 8(2)(a)(iii), or cruel treatment as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Wilful killing contrary to article 8(2)(a)(i), or Murder as a war crime contrary to article 8(2)(c)(i);
Intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population as a war crime contrary to articles 8(2)(b)(i), or 8(2)(e)(i);
Extermination and/or murder contrary to articles 7(1)(b) and 7(1)(a), including in the context of deaths caused by starvation, as a crime against humanity;
Persecution as a crime against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(h);
Other inhumane acts as crimes against humanity contrary to article 7(1)(k).
My Office submits that the war crimes alleged in these applications were committed in the context of an international armed conflict between Israel and Palestine, and a non-international armed conflict between Israel and Hamas (together with other Palestinian Armed Groups) running in parallel. We submit that the crimes against humanity charged were committed as part of a widespread and systematic attack against the Palestinian civilian population pursuant to State policy. These crimes, in our assessment, continue to this day.
My Office submits that the evidence we have collected, including interviews with survivors and eyewitnesses, authenticated video, photo and audio material, satellite imagery and statements from the alleged perpetrator group, shows that Israel has intentionally and systematically deprived the civilian population in all parts of Gaza of objects indispensable to human survival.
This occurred through the imposition of a total siege over Gaza that involved completely closing the three border crossing points, Rafah, Kerem Shalom and Erez, from 8 October 2023 for extended periods and then by arbitrarily restricting the transfer of essential supplies including food and medicine through the border crossings after they were reopened. The siege also included cutting off cross-border water pipelines from Israel to Gaza Gazans principal source of clean water for a prolonged period beginning 9 October 2023, and cutting off and hindering electricity supplies from at least 8 October 2023 until today. This took place alongside other attacks on civilians, including those queuing for food; obstruction of aid delivery by humanitarian agencies; and attacks on and killing of aid workers, which forced many agencies to cease or limit their operations in Gaza.
My Office submits that these acts were committed as part of a common plan to use starvation as a method of war and other acts of violence against the Gazan civilian population as a means to (i) eliminate Hamas; (ii) secure the return of the hostages which Hamas has abducted, and (iii) collectively punish the civilian population of Gaza, whom they perceived as a threat to Israel.
The effects of the use of starvation as a method of warfare, together with other attacks and collective punishment against the civilian population of Gaza are acute, visible and widely known, and have been confirmed by multiple witnesses interviewed by my Office, including local and international medical doctors. They include malnutrition, dehydration, profound suffering and an increasing number of deaths among the Palestinian population, including babies, other children, and women.
Famine is present in some areas of Gaza and is imminent in other areas. As UN Secretary-General António Guterres warned more than two months ago, 1.1 million people in Gaza are facing catastrophic hunger the highest number of people ever recorded anywhere, anytime as a result of an entirely manmade disaster. Today, my Office seeks to charge two of those most responsible, NETANYAHU and GALLANT, both as co-perpetrators and as superiors pursuant to Articles 25 and 28 of the Rome Statute.
Israel, like all States, has a right to take action to defend its population. That right, however, does not absolve Israel or any State of its obligation to comply with international humanitarian law. Notwithstanding any military goals they may have, the means Israel chose to achieve them in Gaza namely, intentionally causing death, starvation, great suffering, and serious injury to body or health of the civilian population are criminal.
Since last year, in Ramallah, in Cairo, in Israel and in Rafah, I have consistently emphasised that international humanitarian law demands that Israel take urgent action to immediately allow access to humanitarian aid in Gaza at scale. I specifically underlined that starvation as a method of war and the denial of humanitarian relief constitute Rome Statute offences. I could not have been clearer.
As I also repeatedly underlined in my public statements, those who do not comply with the law should not complain later when my Office takes action. That day has come.
In presenting these applications for arrest warrants, my Office is acting pursuant to its mandate under the Rome Statute. On 5 February 2021, Pre-Trial Chamber I decided that the Court can exercise its criminal jurisdiction in the Situation in the State of Palestine and that the territorial scope of this jurisdiction extends to Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. This mandate is ongoing and includes the escalation of hostilities and violence since 7 October 2023. My Office also has jurisdiction over crimes committed by nationals of States Parties and by the nationals of non-States Parties on the territory of a State Party.
Todays applications are the outcome of an independent and impartial investigation by my Office. Guided by our obligation to investigate incriminating and exonerating evidence equally, my Office has worked painstakingly to separate claims from facts and to soberly present conclusions based on evidence to the Pre-Trial Chamber.
As an additional safeguard, I have also been grateful for the advice of a panel of experts in international law, an impartial group I convened to support the evidence review and legal analysis in relation to these arrest warrant applications. The Panel is composed of experts of immense standing in international humanitarian law and international criminal law, including Sir Adrian Fulford PC, former Lord Justice of Appeal and former International Criminal Court Judge; Baroness Helena Kennedy KC, President of the International Bar Associations Human Rights Institute; Elizabeth Wilmshurst CMG KC, former Deputy Legal Adviser at the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office; Danny Friedman KC; and two of my Special Advisers Amal Clooney and His Excellency Judge Theodor Meron CMG. This independent expert analysis has supported and strengthened the applications filed today by my Office. I have also been grateful for the contributions of a number of my other Special Advisers to this review, particularly Adama Dieng and Professor Kevin Jon Heller."
BWdem4life
(2,504 posts)My opinion in the OP is a narrow one. I specifically said I do NOT support the recent targeting of the school. I am simply saying that I do not believe Israel is purposely and methodically hitting targets that it does not believe to be Hamas. It does not make logical sense. Your cut-and-paste reply does not respond to my specific opinion on this specific matter.
Beastly Boy
(11,780 posts)These are not war crimes, these are grounds to believe that requesting an investigation into war crimes has reasonable grounds.
Why such persistent need to blow things out of proportion?
Doodley
(10,590 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2024, 04:24 AM - Edit history (1)
BWdem4life
(2,504 posts)It's when the motives are questioned and Israel is unfairly demonized as lying about its reasons for the targets it chooses that I begin to sense something else.
Doodley
(10,590 posts)Beastly Boy
(11,780 posts)Beastly Boy
(11,780 posts)It pretty much depends on the context, doesn't it?
msongs
(70,765 posts)BWdem4life
(2,504 posts)Beastly Boy
(11,780 posts)One doesn't preclude the other.
Cha
(308,408 posts)Tarzanrock
(654 posts)" I am simply saying that I do not believe Israel is purposely and methodically hitting targets that it does not believe to be Hamas." That may be your "belief" but your "belief" is contrary to the actual factual "evidence" which has so far been adduced by the International Criminal Court as to the conduct of Israel and the requisite "motives" required for criminal war crimes charges which have now been brought against the leadership in Israel. Let's see what legal defenses Israel raises before the ICC if it and its leadership is so "innocent" of these "war crimes" charges.
Beastly Boy
(11,780 posts)betsuni
(27,611 posts)From what I can tell, it's the idea some people have that Israel is a European colony lusting to kill Palestinians for no other reason than their brown skin and anybody who doesn't agree with this theory is racist too. That if Israel is part of the evil capitalist Western establishment, Hamas must be part of the good progressive socialist revolution.
wnylib
(25,190 posts)The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)