Israel Planted Explosives in Pagers Sold to Hezbollah, Officials Say

[Coventina]

Israel carried out its operation against Hezbollah on Tuesday by hiding explosive material within a new batch of Taiwanese-made pagers imported into Lebanon, according to American and other officials briefed on the operation.

The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from Gold Apollo in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. Most were the company’s AP924 model, though three other Gold Apollo models were also included in the shipment.

The explosive material, as little as one to two ounces, was implanted next to the battery in each pager, two of the officials said. A switch was also embedded that could be triggered remotely to detonate the explosives.

At 3:30 p.m. in Lebanon, the pagers received a message that appeared as though it was coming from Hezbollah’s leadership, two of the officials said. Instead, the message activated the explosives. Lebanon’s health minister told state media at least nine people were killed and more than 2,800 injured.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/israel-hezbollah-pagers-explosives.html

**************************************************************************************************

So, these were pagers purchased by Hezbollah and distributed to their members.

So..............

Well done Israel!

[Hobo]

1. Yes

Brilliant move, well done.

Hobo

[womanofthehills]

112. It's horrible technology

. This can be done to us!!

The whole global economics market is no longer safe.

This is freaking people out

Smartphones such as IPhone, solar panels, laptops and cars have also exploded in Lebanon.

Now- I ‘m going to have on my mind - that my iPhone can kill me and my car and solar panels can just blow up.

[NoRethugFriends]

151. well then I guess you better try your best not to be a Hezbollah supporter

[JohnSJ]

153. lol. That would probably be a wise move.

[MLAA]

201. I think the idea is that if Israel can do this so can terrorist organizations.

[msongs]

2. another link requiring subscription and log in to read. nt

[BWdem4life]

6. Archive.ph is your friend

https://archive.ph/

Paste the nyt link into the second, blue search bar and you'll probably get an archived link of the NYT article, like the one below:

https://archive.ph/MSEPQ

If none exists, paste the url into the red search bar and watch the magic as it is archived before your eyes.

[msongs]

8. ppl could post accessible links and avoid all that baloney nt

[BWdem4life]

9. Not everyone knows how

just like not everyone knows how to bypass the paywalled links that get posted, not everyone knows how to get a non-paywalled link to post.

[BWdem4life]

3. Terrorizing the terrorists

Turnabout is fair play.

[msongs]

10. what about the thousands injured who were not terrorists?....

From the NYT (.com):

"The pagers exploded on sidewalks and in grocery stores, at homes and inside cars, killing at least nine people and wounding at least 2,700 others, officials said. Witnesses reported smoke coming from pants’ pockets before loud bangs knocked people off their feet. Hezbollah said at least six of its fighters had been killed.

Lebanon’s health minister, Firass Abiad, said that one of those killed was an 8-year-old girl and that many victims had maimed hands and injured eyes. "

[BWdem4life]

12. See post 11. nt

[Coventina]

37. The pagers were purchased by Hezbollah and distributed to their members.

If a terrorist's family was injured, that's on them.

A communication network is fair game in war and always has been.

[AloeVera]

41. A building, an installation, yes. Not people walking about.

Amongst their fellow citizens or families. That is terrorism. That 8-year old girl killed was a victim of terrorism. The other wounded kids, passersby, civilians also victims of terrorism.

And I didn't realize Israel had declared war on Lebanon?

"That's on them"?

Wow.

[Coventina]

44. War on Hezbollah. These people had the pagers for the express purposes of waging terror on Israel.

Fair.Game.

[AloeVera]

45. You mean terror for terror.

Seems like a never-ending cycle to me. Or madness.

[Coventina]

48. Well, once Israel is allowed to exist, things will get better.

But some parties will never agree to that.

They are the ones who are mad.

[AloeVera]

56. When both people are allowed to exist in freedom and security

Things will get better.

I don't think it's possible any other way.

[soandso]

138. Hold up there

Who has lost the majority of their land to whom over the past 100+ years - including through acts of terror? Who is it that has routinely "mowed the lawn" (bombed the shit out of) of the other side? Who has hundreds of thousands of settlers on the other side's shrinking lands? If Israel isn't "allowed to exist", who is doing all of this colonizing? I am not pro Hamas nor Hezbollah but just looking at the entire historical facts and current reality.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

142. Oh Geez.

[soandso]

147. Can you elaborate?

Oh, geez, what? What did I post that isn't true?

FWIW, I'm not on either "side". It's not my war. Just observing.

[Beastly Boy]

200. i believe the "Oh jeez" refers to your mention of "their land"

Whose lands? What are the boundaries of the lands you are referring to? What makes those "laands" "theirs"? When did the "lands" become "their", and for how long?

I bet you can't answer any of those questions with any degree of historical or geographical accuracy.

And I don't know who is buying your "just observing" stance.

[soandso]

207. Oh, you don't "buy" what I said?

What do you buy and would you like to tell to me what you think I think? Fill me in. I'm happy to address whatever that is. It seems you can't fathom anyone not choosing sides or wishing the people living there now could work shit out.

That's a fair question about the land boundaries and I'd say British Palestine, for starters. What made that land "theirs" was that that they lived there and farmed it and were and continue to be forcibly removed and run off. DNA shows that the people we call Palestinians have been there for about 3000 years so I think it's fair to say it was and is their home as much as some patch of Brazilian jungle is the land of the tribe living on it. How are YOU determining what land belongs to whom - western style land titles, declarations by foreign governments, UN resolutions?

[Beastly Boy]

217. Correction: I don't know who is buying your "just observing" stance.

I couldn't care less about what you think in the privacy of your home, I am responding to what you post in a public forum. But don't let this stop you from speculating on the said public forum about what I can or cannot fathom . What you tell me you think about what I can't fathom doesn't trigger me at all.

I find it funny (as in deliciously ironic) that you define the boundaries of the "lands" you are talking about as drawn by European colonial powers after appropriating the said lands from another, Middle Eastern colonial power, and then go lamenting the "western style land titles, declarations by foreign governments, UN resolutions". But by all means, credibility aside, have it your way. I am cool with the Brits drawing boundaries of the "lands", the boundaries that never existed before.

Your definition, however, is quite problematic. On the one hand, by choosing their border lines, you acknowledge Britain's authority to define the extent of the lands in question, and on the other hand, you do not acknowledge the British authorities' designation of a third of all the territories under their mandate as public land, not belonging to either the Palestinians or the Jews. You reject the Jewish presence, which British authorities meticulously documented and facilitated during their mandate, including all the land purchased by the Jews from rich Palestinian landlords. Moving on in time, you reject the UN partition of Israel, the international boundaries established by the Armistice of 1949, the subsequent annexation of the West Bank by Jordan and the Gaza Strip by Egypt. Finally, by defining the Palestinian lands as those delineated by the borders of the British mandate, you are denying the very right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state, and you are denying the right of some 2 million Palestinian Arabs to exist as Israeli citizens.

Well, there goes your claim of not being on either side.

You may also be surprised to find out that the people who have been there for 3000 years are not who we call Palestinians. We call them Jews. The people whom we call Palestinians (they used to be called Palestinian Arabs during the British Mandate) have not been, and could not have been there before the Muslim invaders conquered the "lands" in 637 AD.

...I believe I just won the bet I proposed in my Post #200. But don't get all worked up about it: I don't intend to collect.

[soandso]

218. What I think

in the privacy of my home is exactly what I posted, which you responded to.

I did say, regarding boundaries, the Palestinian Mandate, for starters. I chose that because that's where the dispute is, as opposed to, say, Jordan. It's a bit difficult when talking pre-nation states.

I did not "lament" western style land titles. Don't make shit up. You asked how I determined it was Palestinian land and I replied because they lived and farmed there and had been there a very long time. In turn, I asked how you defined who the land belonged to - "western style land titles, declarations by foreign governments, UN resolutions?". No lamentations whatsoever. Just a simple question which you have not answered.

I will say I'm not cool with the Brits having drawn the boundaries. It's a moot point, of course, but it seems like it would have worked out better for parties living and wanting to live there to work it out between themselves. Instead, though, contrary to your claim that the new arrivals politely purchased land, they engaged in terrorism against the inhabitants and even the British:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Surely you know all of this. They you make the claim, "You reject the Jewish presence". Well bullshit, I did not and do not. I also did not deny the "right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state" or the rights of any of it's citizens, Arabs otherwise. You're reacting hysterically and making up more shit. I'm firmly rooted in what was and is. The state of Israel exists as do the Palestinian people and none of it will exist if some way toward peace isn't found.

Last you claim that the ancestors of Palestinians were Jews. Ridiculous. Here's an article about their DNA:

A dramatic and explosive DNA discovery in Israel has implications for the political struggle between Israelis and Palestinians. Three years ago, archaeologists digging in Israel revealed they had excavated a Philistine cemetery for the first time ever. Now, an extensive report on the DNA taken from the bones they uncovered has confirmed the origins of the Philistines – one of the arch-enemies of the biblical Israelites.

“We’ve been able to demonstrate for the first time that the Philistines were immigrants to the region of Philistia,” said Daniel Master, director of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon.

Scientists have long suspected that modern day Palestinians are not Arab, but actually descendants of European (and mainly pre-Greek) settlers in the region.

State-of-the-art DNA testing on the ancient Philistine bones showed they had European ancestry and migrated across the Mediterranean more than 3,000 years ago and just before the Israelites were given the land by God.

https://metrovoicenews.com/dna-shows-philistines-and-modern-day-palestinians-were-really-european/

[elias7]

210. Hold up yourself...

?si=z-3VQHSqJFuKwf8t

[soandso]

212. I'm familiar with all of those talking points

and find them completely dishonest. They are used to delegitimize the very existence of Palestinians and any claims they have. Just because that area was never deemed a nation state does not negate it's reality and it does not negate the people who have inhabited that land for centuries. Further, it was called the Palestinian Mandate because the name has historical roots:

Palestine
from Latin Palestina (name of a Roman province), from Greek Palaistinē (Herodotus), from Hebrew Pelesheth "Philistia, land of the Philistines" (see Philistine). In Josephus, the country of the Philistines; extended under Roman rule to all Judea and later to Samaria and Galilee.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Palestine

To claim there were no Palestinians because there was no nation state of Palestine, as the young lady did, is like saying there are no Navajoes because no state of Navajo exists. Before 1948, no Jewish state existed but nobody would try claim there was not a Jewish people. Peoples and their territory existed long before the nation state.

[paleotn]

103. Tell Hezbolla to cut it out

I’m sure they’re awaiting your call.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

136. Maybe not.

They might be afraid the phone will blow up. They can't even use walkie talkies - guess they'll have to try telegraph?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

140. Or carrier pigeons. nt

[TheKentuckian]

181. They can disband or surrender.

They ought to be afraid to keep on attacking.

[msongs]

47. rubbish. the party putting bombs in pagers is responsible for what happens, responsible for all the deaths

and injuries. ppl need to own their part before trying to justify it

[Coventina]

49. Rubbish. The pagers were purchased for waging terror.

Too bad the plan blew up in their faces.

[msongs]

53. so if someone sat next to you on a bus and their pager blew up and mangled u thats cool? nt

[Beastly Boy]

58. No it's not cool.

But Israel didn't distribute exploding pagers to anyone.Hezbollah did. Israel didn't force anyone to wear exploding pagers or sit next to you on the bus did it?

Wearing Hezbollah pagers is what is not cool. Being a Hezbollah operative on a bus is not cool.

It's like driving drunk. You may get away with it for a while, but sooner or later you know you will hurt someone.

[Orrex]

67. Obviously it's your fault for sitting next to a clandestine terrorist

And you were probably on your way to becoming a terrorist, because otherwise why would you even set next to them?

[Beastly Boy]

206. It's actually the clandestine terrorist's fault for sitting next to you.

Doesn't take much effort to figure it out.

[womanofthehills]

98. Lots of drs and nurses had those pagers

They have been around for 5 months so some got sold - new rounds exploding today - more innocent people dead - fires in cars and houses.

[sarisataka]

99. Lots? How many?

I was just watching a video report from the American University of Beirut Medical Center, which according to the chief medical officer, while there were a few women and children brought in the vast majority were young males. Conspicuous by its absence was any mention of casualties among doctors and nurses.

Do you have a source to support your claim?

[womanofthehills]

191. Because of bad internet connections -drs & nurses often have them

Link to tweet

?s=46

Link to tweet

?s=46

[sarisataka]

194. Doctors and nurses carry pagers

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 10:19 PM - Edit history (1)

No shock and no one has ever questioned that.

How many doctors and nurses had "those" pagers, that is the ones ordered by Hezbollah? Only a very specific set of pagers were sabotaged and they were not sold to the general public.

[TheKentuckian]

182. They shouldn't be working for Hezbollah then!

How else dod they make the distribution list?

Stop wagon circling for unrepentant, murderous terrorists.

[Beastly Boy]

208. you sound like you have direct knowledge of the stats for those things.

care to share?

[onenote]

46. 2700 injured. Around 3000 pagers bought by and distributed to Hezbollah.

So who are the "thousands injured who were not terrorists"?
Or do you think that Hezbollah isn't a bunch of terrorists?

[Beastly Boy]

59. Huh? Who came up with thousands who were not terrorists?

What are you basing your claims on? Certainly not the source you are quoting...

[MarineCombatEngineer]

85. I'm taking a wild guess here,

but you probably didn't really expect an answer.

[Beastly Boy]

89. I was itching for the answer, but you are right, I didn't expect any.

[RAB910]

27. So can we now declare Israel a terrorist state if they employ terrorism?

[msongs]

30. its not terrorism or murder if israel does it based on what I read on much of DU nt

[Chautauquas]

128. +1

True, even when it's little kids getting maimed and killed.

[TheKentuckian]

179. It is legitimate and targeted counter terrorism

I've never seen such reaching to fluff a bunch off monsters.

[Beastly Boy]

209. Have you ever heard of the Fourth Geneva Convention?

You would be surprised how much of what you are talking about you can learn from it.

[BWdem4life]

32. Just like we could declare the U.S. a terrorist state

Due to our many years of indiscriminate drone attacks.

Who has clean hands?

[Orrex]

69. Ah, yes. The panacea of whataboutism

If you want to call the US a terrorist state, then go ahead.

And if we execute blind remote control attacks on targets in civilian crowds, then we’ll certainly deserve that label.


Also, just to forestall the bullshit accusations that tend to ensue, I am not excusing Hezbollah (or Hamas, while we’re at it) for the thousands of murders they’ve committed, nor am I antisemitic.

But I confess that I don’t see how deliberately targeting attacks in civilian-populated areas is expected to have any result other than escalation.

Perhaps some peace-loving progressive can explain it.

[Beastly Boy]

60. No we can't. We can't unilaterally define terrorism in any way we find convenient at any given moment.

When we get to actually learn the definition of terrorism, we can then compose informed posts showing that we know WTF we are talking about.

Otherwise we would only draw attention to how unserious we are.

[RAB910]

63. this meets the definition of a terror attack

We can't pretend it's not just because Israel was the one committing it

[Beastly Boy]

75. I don't know what prompted you to make this statement, but you appear to

be certain of its accuracy.

This being the case, I don't see you having any difficulty defining what constitutes a terror attack, and how it differs from an attack in conventional warfare or an attack in guerilla warfare. Based on these definition and distinctions, you should also have no problem to demonstrate how the action allegedly taken by Israel in booby trapping communication devices intended for the exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives constitutes a terror attack and why.

Should you be willing and able to explain yourself further, we can then talk about pretending in more detail.

[RAB910]

100. You claimed Israel's terror attack didn't meet the definition, yet you had no definition. Interesting

Still, I am not like that.


Military attacks, also known as offensives or invasions, are designed to achieve strategic, operational, or tactical goals, such as occupying territory or gaining an objective. Terrorist attacks are intended to destroy the public's sense of security and instill fear, often targeting places that are familiar to people.

[Beastly Boy]

118. To be clear,

I stated, in response to your post, that no, absent of the definitions, we cannot declare Israel to be terrorist state just like that. It was you who didn't have the definition.

So you ARE like that.

Since you are not citing sources, I must assume that the definitions you give are your own. Forgetting for the sake of brevity the semantic distinctions between an attack in conventional warfare and a military attack, especially in the context of an offensive or invasion, your definition would not consider any military attack that does not intend to cause an invasion or an offensive to be a military attack. Navy seals taking out Bin Laden would not be a military attack. Ukraine taking out Russia's warships would not be considered a military attack. A Miyanmar military assaulting the presidential palace in order to depose civilian government would not be considered a military attack.

An odd definition. Very odd.

Your definition of a terrorist attack is less odd, but misses the mark. It is not a definition, it is a description of purpose.

And missing entirely from your reply is the the whole reason for me asking to define those terms:

"Based on these definition and distinctions, you should also have no problem to demonstrate how the action allegedly taken by Israel in booby trapping communication devices intended for the exclusive use by Hezbollah operatives constitutes a terror attack and why."

It appears you do have a problem with that.

[RAB910]

121. If you refuse to believe me, how about listening to an expert?

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/2-probable-war-crimes-committed-in-lebanon-pager-attack-legal-expert/3333837


Luigi Daniele, an expert in international humanitarian law, said he believes that there are “two probable war crimes” relevant to the incident.

“The first is intentionally directing attacks against individual civilians not taking a direct part in the hostilities, for all the unlawful targets, so basically, diplomats or merely political affiliates of Hezbollah with no combat function,” Daniele, a senior lecturer at the Nottingham Trent University, told Anadolu.

This, he explains comes under Article 8 (2) (b) (i) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) for directing attacks against civilians not taking direct part in hostilities.

The second potentially relevant war crime, he said, is intentionally directing attacks in the knowledge that they will cause "clearly excessive incidental civilian harm."

Calling this an “important war crime,” Daniele said the ICC recently charged Russian military commanders over their attacks on power grids for precisely this reason.

“I think it is even more the case when detonations have been planned to take place in densely populated areas full of civilians. So, this harm to civilians was entirely foreseeable," he argued.

This falls under Article 8(2)(b)(iv) of the Rome Statute of "intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated."

Daniele said it is important to understand that in this test about the excessiveness of civilian harm, “not only killing civilians but also injuring them” are included in the test.

He also stressed the issue of attribution with no claim of responsibility for the attack, adding that this is also an “important indicator.”

[tritsofme]

125. That's interesting I guess, however neither Lebanon nor Israel are parties to the Rome Statute.

[Beastly Boy]

129. It's not that I refuse to believe you. It's just you gave me no reason to believe you.

I am not aware of Mr Daniele's expertise, but I will take your word for it.

What he says, according to the article you cited, is that "he believes that there are “two probable war crimes” relevant to the incident." Hmmm... "beiieves, probably, maybe". I don't detect much confidence in his expert opinion.

Br Daniele bases his belief on two articles of the Rome Convention:

8.(2)(b)(i)

(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such
or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;

and 8(2)(b)(iv)

Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack
will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to
civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the
natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to
the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated

Bolding mine.

In order to get from the "probably, maybe" towards "possibly", never mind likely or definitely, Mr Daniele will have to show intent in Israel's part to direct attacks against civilians, or he will have to show that Israel knew that such attack would be clearly excessive to the anticipated military advantage, the advantage being the disablement of a division's worth of enemy combatants in a single day. Mr Daniele has a hell of a lot of work cut out for him!

Unless and until he does, he is not moving one inch from the "believe, probably, maybe".

[sarisataka]

79. How are you defining terror attack?

Saying something meets the definition, without all parties knowing the definition, is a rather empty statement.

[RAB910]

101. here

Military attacks, also known as offensives or invasions, are designed to achieve strategic, operational, or tactical goals, such as occupying territory or gaining an objective. Terrorist attacks are intended to destroy the public's sense of security and instill fear, often targeting places that are familiar to people.

[sarisataka]

102. In this case the attack was specifically targeted at Hezbollah members

videos have been released showing people in very close proximity when the pagers exploded, and they were not injured.

Given the "vast majority" of those injured were Hezbollah (according to Hezbollah) and it disrupts the C3 capabilities of a terrorist organization it appears to fit the definition of a military attack. It has achieved strategic, operational, or tactical goals with minimal collateral damage. Much less than the collateral damage caused by Hezbollah rockets. (though TBF the collateral damage is the goal of the Hezbollah attacks)

[RAB910]

104. Trying to justify a terrorist attack doesn't negate the fact that it was a terror attack

[MarineCombatEngineer]

105. Except it wasn't a terror attack, no matter how many times you say it is,

it was a targeted attack against Hizbollah's C&C system with the intent to limit the collateral damage to the civilian population, unlike what Hizbollah does to Israeli civilians.

[RAB910]

114. Ironic since the number of denials will not change the fact that it was a terror attack designed to terrorize and

Demoralize.

The difference is I provided a working definition while you just make denials

The spin about C and C is not accurate.

[TheKentuckian]

183. Your definition doesn't fit the circumstances no matter how much you demand everyone pretends it does.

Hezbollah agents are legitimate targets so stop fluffing them.

[sarisataka]

108. Just because you call it a terrorist attack doesn't mean it is a terrorist attack

It does not even fit the definition of terrorist attack that you provided.

[RAB910]

115. Just because you deny it (even with the attack perfectly matching the definition) doesn't mean it wasn't a terror attack

[sarisataka]

119. One last try

Military attacks, also known as offensives or invasions, are designed to achieve strategic, operational, or tactical goals, such as occupying territory or gaining an objective.

An offensive- yes, targeted munitions
Achieve goals- yes, disrupt C3
Gain an objective- yes, degrade the effectiveness of an opposing force

Terrorist attacks are intended to destroy the public's sense of security and instill fear, often targeting places that are familiar to people.

Destroy public sense of security- no, the attacks were specifically to Hezbollah members. Effect on the public was minimal.
Targeting places familiar to people- no, no specific location was targeted. Combatants alone were targeted not their location

[RAB910]

120. Literally every military expert saw it differently. The saw the attack as a means to terrorize Hamas and demoralize

Them. That is what the experts have been saying.

[sarisataka]

122. Please link to these statements by these experts

I do have a smidgen of experience in that field. Hezbollah (not Hamas) are combatants. Demoralizing them is a legitimate military objective.

[RAB910]

123. Here is one, feel free to do the work for the many others

https://www.newarab.com/news/did-israeli-pager-attack-hezbollah-violate-international-law

[sarisataka]

124. Don't see a single person The New Arab interviewed

that is identified as a "military expert".

Interesting they claim "around 4,000 wounded" which is more than a thousand over most reports.

From the article:
The UN's Special Coordinator for Lebanon, Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, condemned the attack, with a statement from her office saying: "in accordance with international humanitarian law, she reminds all concerned actors that civilians are not a target and must be protected at all times."
Are Hezbollah terrorists "civilians"?

Human Rights Watch Middle East and North Africa Director, Lama Fakih, also condemned the attack, calling for an impartial investigation and warning that international law's prohibition of booby traps is to protect civilians.
but two paragraphs later-
Although not prohibiting outright the use of boobytraps, certain conditions are placed on signatories, which includes Israel, Lebanon and the US.

"For example, it prohibits the use of booby-traps in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material." Such restriction falls under point two of article seven of the amendment.

"We're still waiting to get more information about how exactly these pagers were modified, and that might be relevant to this prohibition," he added, saying that without more information it was hard to reach definitive conclusions on what violations have occurred.

[TheKentuckian]

185. What happened to "every"?

I'm not sure you scraped up "any".

[soandso]

149. Let me ask you this

If Hezbollah did something like planted a bomb at some IDF training center, mostly killing soldiers but also killing or harming anyone else around, would that meet your definition of legit? That's a sincere question. I don't buy into international law and rules of war because war always kills innocents and the one who isn't on your side are always the bad guys which, of course, the other side always thinks about you because it's war. The "terrorist" is the other guy.

[sarisataka]

156. A good question

It would then go to proportionality. A military training center would be a legitimate target, even if some civilians may be killed. However if a massive car bomb was used which also takes out the apartment complex across the street, then it would be excessive. If the pagers had been packed with a quarter pound of Semtex to have a 10m casualty radius, I would be roundly criticizing the attack.

The "terrorism" comes into focus when the collateral damage is the objective, such as the rockets Hezbollah fires at Israeli towns and cities.

[soandso]

163. Fair answer

My thoughts on this are actually quite general as in this isn't going to help and kind of deescalation or lead to peace. The pager deal (and now walkie talkies, as well), aside from any moral judgment, is some seriously impressive sabotage work, though. I'm very curious to find out how they pulled this off.

[TheKentuckian]

186. All Hezbollah actions are acts of terrorism, they are a terrorist organization.

Stop conflating stopping the threat they insist on posing with a nation defending themselves from them.

They can disband or surrender.

Tit for tat is a ridiculous position here.

[soandso]

192. Before Israel became a nation state

they had terrorist groups. Many of the actions of the nation state against the Palestinians also fit the definition of terror. Point being, there are lots of atrocious acts to go around. Isn't that how this works? I mean one side thinks they're right and the other believes they have legitimate grievances and thinks they're right. Obviously, the Arab Muslim side believes the Israelis are brutal colonists who mistreat, steal from and murder the Palestinians. I can understand that. I also understand that millions of Israelis are also natives (born there) and and have a legit concern for their own safety. Perhaps non stop acts of violence, i.e., "tit for tat", isn't going to make anyone safer and another way must be found to resolve the madness. Just a thought. Though I don't support anyone, I wish to see peace for everyone.

[soandso]

146. I see this more like car bombs

in that the planted bomb is usually intended for one target but can and often takes out or injures innocent parties.

I think this guy (not familiar with him) makes some fair points. If this was done to US or Israeli personnel, it would be called a terrorist attack.

?si=gnNSEXoueEqHSJgh

[sarisataka]

148. I suppose you could phrase it that way if

you say a sniper bullet is like a cluster bomb.

It is significant though that among all of the claims of innocents injured, Hezbollah is not making any such accusations. They have said 8 of the (then) 11 killed were Hezbollah members. They are also calling it their biggest security breach, not something you would expect if a few members were injured in a wide, indiscriminate attack.

[soandso]

150. I haven't followed terribly closely

so am not sure of numbers and how may civilians have been harmed so I can't refute what you say. That said, if you want to take the other guy's comms, wouldn't there be other ways to do it, like a virus or something along those lines? Obviously, because they exploded, it was acceptable if anyone got hurt (Hezbollah wife, kids, etc).

[claudette]

139. I would say

Yes

[MarineCombatEngineer]

141. Of course you would.

You've made it very clear.

[womanofthehills]

113. It's more about how scary this technology is

It can be done to us easily now I’m sure. Every two year old in US is on an iPhone.

The global economics market is freaking out.

[soandso]

152. I find that scary, as well

Intercepting the shipped items from Taiwan is a pretty stunning feat and I'd like to know how they did this.

[EX500rider]

199. The ability to hide explosives in electronics goes back decades

Nothing new there

[sarisataka]

203. People are shocked like explosives.Have never been put in a routine item previously

Nor would the idea have ever occurred to anyone in the world if it wasn't for Israel.

Now we all have to give our 10-year-old microwave the side eye every time we reheat leftovers because a gremlin might have snuck a bomb in there.

[womanofthehills]

116. No - terrorizing the world

Is this future warfare? Can some terrorist blow up all the iPhones in NewYork. If you don’t like your neighbor, can you fly a drone over his house to blow up his electronics?This scary sick technology is now out there.

[soandso]

155. Yes

[claudette]

132. How do you know

if innocents weren’t killed? How is Israel’s terrorism against innocents ok?

[madaboutharry]

4. Mossad to Hezbollah: FAFO

Am Yisrael Chai! 🇮🇱

Just for context: Hezbollah has fired over 20,000 missiles and rockets into Israel since October 7th, every single one of them launched with the sole purpose of killing Jews.. Israeli towns across the north of Israel remain evacuated and fires rage across the forests.

If someone doesn't want someone near them to get hurt by an exploding pager or some other method, then don't be a terrorist vowing allegiance to Jihad and the murder of Jews.

[soandso]

160. Doesn't that work both ways?

Could not Hezbollah or the general Muslim population say that if the Israelis don't want to get rockets fired on them then maybe they shouldn't colonize Arab land. Just playing devil's advocate here.

[madaboutharry]

164. Israel decolonized the land.

The creation of the modern state of Israel decolonized the land from The British Empire.

Israel was always the land of the Jewish people. Everyone else, from the Roman Empire to the Ottoman Empire to the British Empire as well as those from all over the Arabian peninsula and the Levant, sought to colonize Israel.

[soandso]

169. How does that work?

The Jews of the region scattered thousands of years ago. The Palestinians have been there for all of that time. Who decided this place where other people were living was "Jewish land", Yaweh (Jewish tribal god)? Do other people around the world who had some ancient connection to a particular place have a right to go there, lay claim and bulldoze the homes of the current occupants?

The British were not living in Palestine and Israel was NOT "decolonized" from the British. The British gave someone else land that belonged to other people. That's how all this started and the resistance to this plan, by the Palestinians, has never ceased. I'm not making excuses for the violence committed by anyone but that's the facts.

[madaboutharry]

173. Many Jews were driven into the Diaspora, Many remained.

The British did not give "someone else land that belonged to other people." BTW, the British gave the majority of the land, the most fertile land, to the Arab population.

It is obvious that you are of the opinion that Israel does not have the right to even exist.

Don't wast your time responding, because I won't..

[soandso]

175. "Israel does not have the right to even exist"

which I did not say so your deciding what my opinion is an inaccurate assumption. The state of Israel exists and being the type who abides by objective reality, my opinion is it is what it is.

Lots of people, throughout history, have been driven here or there. That doesn't give anyone alive today the right to lay claim to the land their ancestors once inhabited. The whole damn world would be at war if that were the case.

[AloeVera]

172. Decolonized it from its native inhabitants you mean.

In other words, colonization.

"Decolonization" is a fascinating new talking point, though. I have to hand it to the person who thought of it. It turns on its head the actual, immoral colonization and ethnic cleansing of native Palestinians, and makes Israel into the "good guys" fighting the evil British Empire.

All I can say is... LOL.

[sarisataka]

178. Do you believe Israel has the right to exist

Or is it an illegal state?

[AloeVera]

214. Ok I'll bite and hope you won't make me regret my honest response.

Right to exist? Yes. I would not want to see the same fate befall Israelis as befell Palestinians. Two wrongs cannot make a right. So Israel must continue to exist.

In the form it has taken, with its policies towards the Palestinian people, its intransigence, subjugation, occupation apartheid, intensified land theft and expansionism? The hateful religious fanatic settlers calling the shots? No. I would like to see a very different Israel exist.

Freedom and dignity for Palestinians, in their own state or as part of a one-state is a must. When that happens, I will cheerlead for Israel, and would love to visit. Not until then.

The legality? I don't like how the state was created. The brutality and ethnic cleansing necessary to create it was abominable. It was all wrong on many levels, starting with Great Britain having no right to give away land to anybody that already had a people living on it. But that's the British Empire, built on the belief natives are not real people.

But to be fair, questions on Israel's right to exist need balance from the other side of the equation.

Do you believe Palestine has the right to exist? Do you believe Palestinians have the right to self-determination, to form their own state and govern themselves as they see fit?

[FakeNoose]

5. I just saw this story on NBC Nightly News

Came on here to see it anything was on DU about the story. Great timely post, Coventina.

NBC News showed a couple of private videos (cell-phone quality vids) of pagers going off in the public marketplace. It's happening all over Lebanon and I guess other places. Caused several injuries and quite a ruckus.

[msongs]

7. weapons of mass destructions. many victims were not hezbollah. they just randomly had

access to pagers owned by associates. indiscriminate murder attempts

[BWdem4life]

11. That's a shame

Just like it's a shame that Hezbollah kills indiscriminately.

[msongs]

13. its not a shame. its premediated murder of innocent people

[BWdem4life]

14. And this is different from what Hezbllah does... how?

You reap what you sow.

[msongs]

16. umm no. ppl are responsbile for the morality of their own acts. indiscriminate murder is murder

no matter who does it. if israel does it or hezbollah does it they're both wrong.

[BWdem4life]

18. And that's a shame. nt

[BrianTheEVGuy]

24. Nobody with a Hezbollah pager is innocent. NT

[Johnny2X2X]

65. Were they labeled at Hezbollah Pagers?

People in the Western World don't realize that pagers are still used a ton of places that have limited cell service. When Hezbollah decided to use pagers it was an opportunity, but one that came with risks, when you send thousands of tiny bombs installed in a consumer good into a population, you're accepting the risk that the collateral damage is going to be significant. There's no way of knowing who would have these pagers or if the majorioty of them would still be with Hezbollah even if you thought you sold them to Hezbollah.

We've crossed into a new era of warfare with this act. If it is acceptable to do this, what can we expect to be acceptable to happen to our own population?

[BrianTheEVGuy]

96. They were part of a batch order by Hizbollah

If you have one of them, you’re part of Hizbollah.

After October 7 and the western world’s shameful response to it (including antisemitic campus riots), Israel is wisely pivoting to a first strike posture.

Given that the world largely failed to condemn Hamas, I doubt they much care about crocodile tears for family and friends of Hamas fighters.

And I’m here for it.

[aocommunalpunch]

106. Oh, it would be somehow "different".

Everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others. First pager blows up here, fuckers will be bleating for war tout de suite. Bank on it.

[TheKentuckian]

187. Only because you seem to insist that Hezbollah can take any legitimate action

It is not only acceptable to wipe them out, it is necessary.

[soandso]

170. If a Hezbollah operative,

soldier or political, gave his teenage daughter a pager to contact him if she needed to, how is she guilty of anything?

[BrianTheEVGuy]

180. Better she die than an Israeli victim of her father. NT

[soandso]

184. My first reaction to your comment

was yikes but I immediately after thought it's true about how people think when at war. My team hates your guts; your team is subhuman and mine is civilized; your team is wrong and my team is right; your children are your evil spawn and mine are valuable human beings, etc. It perfectly illustrates why humans can't get past being so warlike. I expect the pagers and walkie talkie thing will just make any prospects for peace that much more remote. *sigh*

[BrianTheEVGuy]

197. You can't make peace with terrorists

You make pieces out of terrorists.

Sentiment from position of privilege and security is great for dinner party chat but it doesn’t prevent another Holocaust.

[soandso]

211. What evidence is there

of another Holocaust? From what I can tell, it's the Palestinians with massive numbers being killed, colonized (settlements), homes bulldozed and cities flattened. That looks like pretty wide scale murder and ethic cleansing to me. That's not to say that Hamas and terrorism against Israelis doesn't need to be dealt with. I'm just sayin' don't exaggerate or flip the truth around. If another way besides constant violence isn't found, then what - just keep going like this until a million are dead? The current approach is not working.

[iemanja]

42. How did the 8 yr old girt reap that?

and how is it okay to celebrate the killing of children? I know terrorists do it, but how does it make it okay for people here to do it too? We aren't terrorists.

[BWdem4life]

54. She was an innocent victim

but those who survive her were obviously affected and may not have been so innocent. I do not celebrate her death but neither do I excuse those who also caused it to happen by doing things which demanded retaliation.

[soandso]

167. True enough

Those who live by the sword and all that. Nevertheless, that eye for an eye shit, or 1000 eyes for 100, doesn't exactly bode well for any peace agreements.

[WarGamer]

19. you're 100% right, of course...

[Beastly Boy]

61. Since when does the possession of a communication device for exclusive use by a terrorist group

make you innocent?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

80. That is an outright lie,

You're wasting your breath
The people you're trying to talk to...would applaud if an IDF soldier pissed on the burning corpse of a 2 year old in the West Bank!!!

And they always justify it with either Hamas or Hezbollah did it!!!

nobody here would do such a thing and you should do the right thing and delete this offensive post.

[jimfields33]

162. Hezbollah Gave them out to their fellow war fighters. Not

to innocent people. They passed them out to their fellow war fighters who are completely against Israel and want them off the map.

[Orrex]

66. "Evil justifies evil" is such a laudably progressive attitude

I’m sure you’ll be just as understanding when Hezbollah uses that same bullshit excuse to justify the murders that they commit in turn.

When innocent civilians are bleeding on the ground, “ they done it first” is a rather hollow excuse.

[JohnSJ]

158. Those kids killed a couple of weeks ago by Hezbollah at a sports stadium a few weeks ago by their targeted

missiles.

[NickB79]

15. Randomly had access to pagers owned by terrorists?

Nothing random about it. Hezbollah terrorists placed their families and friends at risk by engaging in terrorism. When you join a terrorist organization and your family gets injured in the crossfire, that's on the terrorists.

[iemanja]

43. Happened to be in the vicinity

in a crowded location. Ever think of that? What did the 8 year old girl do to deserve to die?

[FullySupportDems]

51. I bet we never even learn the child's name

Because seeing the victims as people might look bad.

[Nanjeanne]

64. Her name is Fatima Abdullah. Nine years old.

[iemanja]

70. The Times reported 8yrs

They could of course be wrong.

[Nanjeanne]

77. I believe that was first reported. Now saying nine. Either way too young to have her life taken.

[FullySupportDems]

97. Glad to be wrong about that

[sarisataka]

82. We learned the names of

Alex Lobanov, Eden Yerushalmi, Almog Sarusi, Master Sgt Ori Danino, Hersh Goldberg-Polin, Carmel Gat. It didn't suddenly make them people, they remained Jews that were simply "found dead".

[FullySupportDems]

166. I wasn't sure about replying

But I want to say, their deaths are just as tragic. I hope you don't think I thought they weren't. And I'm sorry if you thought for a second I do. All this loss of life is tragic. All victims deserve to be recognized, not turned into numbers and statistics.

I'm sure we all want peace in the middle east. I just don't agree these military tactics against civilians are going to help.

I wish you well and thank you for your service too.

[sarisataka]

168. Not directed at you personally

just an observation the humanizing the victims doesn't automatically make it more real to people. Even after the hostages names were released, it did not change the opinions of those who refused to blame Hamas.

A peaceful settlement would be optimal, but on one side is Hamas and Hezbollah to whom the existence of Israel is intolerable and non-negotiable. On the other, Israel is currently led by a RW extremist who apparently will do anything to remain in power.

You service is appreciated as well, even though it was USAF (/jk, there is little that will bring a bigger smile to a person's face than the timely arrival of a pair of A-10s)

[FullySupportDems]

193. I appreciate that

I'm sorry for the lack of humanity of anyone who doesn't get how horrible it all is. Names and faces help make people more aware I think. Hopefully

I did hear doubts expressed, that it may have been an air strike that killed them, so I guess that's why some people don't blame Hammas? I don't know if it's true, I don't want it to be true and I won't argue over what it might mean unless it's proven that happened. No less tragic either way for the victims.

I sure wish there were better leaders on all sides.

Oh it's been a while since I heard that one, that's funny. When I worked with the other services, they'd rib each other some, but they came together to rib us. Lol Button pushers us. I could always rib the navy over their closet full of uniforms. So many to maintain! Ship stories out in the smoking area were the best.

Love the Warthog! I never worked on one, but the guard unit next door had some. I liked their planes better than my kc135s. I hope they never scrap it.

Thank you and much appreciation for your service as well.

[sarisataka]

198. The air force always did get the brunt of it

Although when I would be standing in the rain, ankle deep in mud and a couple degrees above freezing I'd remember you all were getting paid the same as I. It made me question my life choices.

February '91, we were in a bit of a spot and called for help, hoping for some choppers. A few minutes and I heard turbo fans, low and closing. I knew only one plane with those engines would be that close to the dirt. A minute later our problem was solved.

[FullySupportDems]

204. Questioning life choices

That's a good one. It's sorta how I felt about cross training from aircraft maintenance to computers. Flight line is tough enough to show me I'm not, not really, and cold hurts, sometimes a lot. And the pay is all the same too, no overtime either lol.

I'm glad that A10 was there for you in '91, I can only imagine that. A plane built around a gun, made so well it was hard to shoot down too. Engineered to last.

Have a fine evening

[soandso]

177. I don't think so

For most people, that is. Thanks to Hersh's parents, he, especially, became known. That really helps make someone an object of sympathy as opposed to just a number. Those 40K dead Palestinians - Hamas aside - haven't got much of that. Not that it's any different from any other war. It's always that way.

[NickB79]

55. The responsibility is still on the TERRORISTS

The very act of choosing to be Hezbollah puts those around you at risk. Friends, family, neighbors, people in your community. That's the inherent nature of a terrorist group.

[Orrex]

71. Where does that excuse end, exactly?

Can Israel bomb the entire landscape to glass because terrorists are hiding somewhere around there?

And how does that differ from Hezbollah or Hamas targeting Israeli civilians under the bullshit rationalization that their support of the IDF justifies it?

[Dave Bowman]

126. +1

[TheKentuckian]

190. It ends when the attacks stop and they surrender.

[soandso]

174. Would that make

the families of US military personnel, who invaded Iraq, fair game for someone from Iraq?

[sarisataka]

20. Link?

Because there are lots of posts with false information today. Hezbollah themselves have been saying the majority have been their people.

[msongs]

21. NYT when read from google search the page loaded, but copy and paste leads to login required

[sarisataka]

23. Thank you

From that link-

Over 3,000 pagers were ordered from Gold Apollo, the officials said. Hezbollah distributed the pagers to its members throughout Lebanon, with some reaching the group’s allies in Iran and Syria, the officials said.

Since the total injuries are below three thousand and Hezbollah says they were distributed to their members it is likely the vast majority of the injured are Hezbollah.

[Coventina]

38. LOL! Beepers are weapons of mass destruction?!?!?!

By the way: these beepers were purchased by Hezbollah for Hezbollah members to use so they can plot and plan terrorism.

Sucks to be them!!!!

[Beastly Boy]

62. Not according to Hezbollah

Hezbollah, which is backed by Iran, said the pagers belonged “to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions” and confirmed the deaths of eight fighters.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd7xnelvpepo

[claudette]

137. Yes

Israel is a disgrace

[EX500rider]

202. They just randomly had Hezbollah issued encrypted pagers?

That seems highly unlikely

[nycbos]

17. Q would be proud

[BrianTheEVGuy]

22. Wonderful

These explosions deprived Hamas of many members. You could also say the attack took balls!

[harumph]

73. You might even say it was "balls to the wall."

[BrianTheEVGuy]

95. And in some cases...

Balls embedded in wall 🤣

[jmowreader]

25. One to two ounces of high explosive wouldn't make the targets suspicious

I hope the Israelis had the foresight to set them all off at the same time...otherwise Hezbollah would take the undetonated ones apart and recover the explosives for their own nefarious purposes. But yeah, great tactic.

[wiggs]

26. There's a lot I don't understand about the dynamics between all these groups, and I'm sure there are

intense behind the scenes discussions, threats, carrots offered, and covert action that don't make the news.

But it seems to me that Hamas is one thing, Hezbollah is another. Hezbollah is much larger, better financed, better equipped, and more dangerous than Hamas. One would hope that these exploding pagers have a chilling/dampening effect and not a regionally escalatory one. But, again, I don't know which actors are really trying to dampen tensions and which are trying to escalate. I do believe the US is trying VERY hard to de-escalate and the Biden administration is one reason why we haven't already seen a catastrophic larger regional war. I haven't yet heard what the WH and Pentagon thinks of exploding pagers at this time.

However....I don't know why we wouldn't at least consider the increase in Hezbollah/Israel conflicts in the context of our US elections, among other dynamics. There may be reasons why instability now makes sense for Netanyahu, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran...and Putin. Russia and Iran are allied in many aspects, I believe.

I don't claim deep understanding of the middle east, I do acknowledge a healthy mistrust of certain political figures, 'strongmen' and extreme cults.

[Mosby]

31. Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel, more since oct 7th

Chart Shows Huge Increase in Hezbollah Rockets Targeting Israel

There has been a significant escalation in Hezbollah rocket attacks targeting Israel since October 7, with a total of 13,931 rocket alerts, averaging out at 47 per day.

https://www.newsweek.com/chart-shows-increae-hezbollah-rockets-israel-gaza-hamas-war-1931959

[wiggs]

34. Seems to me the military actions from both have been less than all out war. There have been

measured responses, along with surprises.

No doubt Hezbollah is poking, prodding, instigating, testing, rattling swords...doing what they can to show they are serious and in the news. They certainly don't care about Israeli civilian injuries. Perhaps hoping for retaliation and escalation or perhaps trying to stay relevant. Perhaps doing enough to keep the funding flowing.

Tricky business for both sides, walking a fine line. Hope neither makes a gigantic error.

[EX500rider]

205. I'm sure if Mexico fired over 14,000 Rockets across the border into the US we would consider it war

[bullimiami]

29. I'm not ok with Israel using terrorist tactics.

This is monstrous and they way they are behaving in the West Bank is monstrous.

The whole situation is fubar.

[NoRethugFriends]

33. Right. they should just nicely ask Hezbollah to not fire missiles into Israel anymore.

[Coventina]

39. LOL!!! Monstrous is buying beepers for your terrorist organization to plot and plan terrorism.

If the plan blows up in your face, that's on you!!!!

[Cha]

50. Hezbollah Are Terrorists. IDF is Fighting Terrorism.

[claudette]

134. Me neither

Why is it okay for Israel to kill innocents who have not harmed anyone?

[NoRethugFriends]

154. oh, so it was not Hezbollah sending missiles into Israel

My mistake I guess

[madaboutharry]

35. There is a book I would like to recommend:

The author is Dana Horn. The book title is People Love Dead Jews.

I read it on recommendation from a friend here on DU.

Horn's book explains a lot.

[Jk23]

36. They have identified the Mossad Agent involved.

?si=UFl7-MwCU1bAgHZb

[Tarc]

40. Israel was sending targeted drone strikes to terrorist cellphones via its GPS *BOOM*

So the switched to pagers *BOOM*BOOM*

Next they'll have to sell them electrified tin cans & string. *BOOM*BOOM*BOOM*

[enid602]

52. Taiwanese company

I’m not so sure that, say Apple would take kindly if war criminals booby trapped their equipment in this way. Imagine the Taiwanese company has some room to go after IDF.

[Elessar Zappa]

72. War criminals for going after terrorists?

Give me a break.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

74. .....

[enid602]

130. Booby trap

Well, hopefully Israel has found a way to similarly booby trap the 150,000 Hezbollah missiles aimed at them from Southern Lebanon.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

135. That would be optimal. nt

[Sympthsical]

57. Some of the reactions to this are a trip

[tritsofme]

68. I wish this wasn't so funny...or true.

[sarisataka]

81. There seems to be much concern that terrorists are being fought unfairly

Also it seems "Hezbollah terrorist" and "innocent civilian" are synonymous phrases.

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. What's not " a trip" is the pleasure a few DUers are taking in maiming suspects without trial

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization; but that doesn't mean that mass maiming (many have lost eyes, because you look at a pager) is a suitable sentence, carried out without trial, for any member of the organization.

It was, for instance, illegal for the UK to execute members of the IRA without trial in Gibraltar. You may think that it was acceptable; but we really wouldn't expect glee about it on DU.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

87. Without a trial?

How the hell is Israel supposed to put Hizbollah terrorists on trial?
Or are you expecting the Lebanese Govt. to put Hizbollah terrorists on trial?

JFC!!!!

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Well then, you don't carry out death sentences or deliberate maiming on them

JFC!!!!

Is the rule of law that hard to understand?

Being a member of a terrorist group does not mean a person has carried out a terroristic act. It means they support the use of terrorism, which Hezbollah has always employed, since its founding to resist the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. But supporting terrorism is not, itself, something deserving of maiming or killing (like supporting the use of exploding pagers is not something deserving of maiming or killing).

[MarineCombatEngineer]

92. In war, Command and Control systems are a legitimate target,

which is what Israel did, they targeted the pagers, and now, the 2 way radios of Hizbollah and seriously degraded their ability to communicate.
That's Strategy 101.

[Sympthsical]

90. War is an awful thing

Which is why one generally tries to avoid it.

Maybe we should write a sternly-worded letter to Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and all the rest whose aspirations for Jewish genocide keep leading to this sort of thing?

It'll be nah, right?

It's always nah.

One-handed wringing just isn't that interesting anymore.

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. With Hezbollah, it's worth remembering it was formed in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon

I agree "one-handed wringing" is not a good idea. But I don't think anyone DUer has made a decent case for "any member of Hezbollah can justifiably be maimed or killed without knowing what they have personally done".

[MarineCombatEngineer]

93. Oh my,

are you actually defending Hizbollah?

[Sympthsical]

94. "When we targeted Nazis, we hit some party members not holding a gun"

Ok, but, you know, how much would I care if some Nazi party members got hit while targeting command?

Very little. They're still Nazis.

Same here. You support terrorists, to the point you're within their operational sphere? Sucks to be you if something goes down.

The collateral damage is shitty. But, again, that is why one should avoid war. And, should one choose to go to war, your army hiding out and moving around within civilian populations is going to bear the lion's share of the responsibility for how that shakes out.

You keep mentioning the invasion - which even the UN said was over and done with back in 2000. And the UN rarely gives Israel credit for anything, so it's notable they declare that Israel is off the hook there.

It is Hezbollah's stated intention and continued objective to destroy the entirety of the Israeli state. Full stop. So why you're repeatedly bringing up an invasion long over almost as some kind of justification for Hezbollah is a little odd. I know the history. But we must now deal with the present. And the present is an Iranian-backed group seeking to destroy Israel.

I would love it if people would stop trying to kill Jews. The Middle East would probably pipe down pretty quick. Well, some states might have some domestic issues to deal with, but that is probably part of the point there.

[RJ_MacReady]

107. honestly

This nonsense just gives the far right ammo. Are you really sympathizing with Hezbollah? Jfc.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

109. Seems that way doesn't it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

110. I'm pointing out that the glee at people getting maimed and killed has its own problems

You wouldn't be gleeful at prisoners getting maimed and killed in prison, would you? Even though they've done something wrong.

A small faction of DU thinks that some humans can be mistreated any way they find funny.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

111. I'm gleeing at terrorists getting maimed and killed

and doing so gleefully.
Hope that clears that up.

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. Why would you let your thoughts be dictated by what the far right thinks? Here are better people:

Here's the EU foreign policy chief:

Following yesterday’s series of explosions in Lebanon, I called the Lebanese foreign minister Abdallah Bou Habib. He briefed me on the explosion of a high number of electronic devices in many areas across the country. Thousands of people were injured – hundreds in critical condition – hospitals are collapsing.

Even if the attacks seem to have been targeted, they had heavy, indiscriminate collateral damages among civilians: several children are among the victims

I consider this situation extremely worrying. I can only condemn these attacks that endanger the security and stability of Lebanon, and increase the risk of escalation in the region.

The European Union calls on all stakeholders to avert an all-out war, which would have heavy consequences for the entire region and beyond.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/18/middle-east-crisis-live-hezbollah-pager-explosion-lebanon-irael-iran-latest-updates?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66eaccba8f08e43e1272bbd6#block-66eaccba8f08e43e1272bbd6

Or what the Irish government thinks:

Irish foreign minister Micheál Martin has said that the pager detonations in Lebanon showed a “wanton disregard” for the lives of civilians, and said it was a “logical conclusion” that Israeli forces were behind the incident. Israel has not claimed responsiblity for the attack, which injured nearly 3,000 people and killed at least 12 people, including two children.

The tánaiste said “The nature of the attack illustrates a wanton disregard for the lives of people because these pagers with explosives put into them went off in public areas and supermarkets and around people going out about their daily lives. It meant that many innocent civilians – men, women and children – were caught up in this.”

PA Media reports that asked if he considered it to be a breach of Geneva conventions rules on indiscriminate attacks, Martin replied: “In my view, yes, absolutely.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/18/middle-east-crisis-live-hezbollah-pager-explosion-lebanon-irael-iran-latest-updates?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66eacdbd8f08e43e1272bbe0#block-66eacdbd8f08e43e1272bbe0

Or the UN high commissioner for human rights:

Those responsible for a deadly wave of explosions across Lebanon targeting paging devices used by members of the Hezbollah militant group “must be held to account”, the UN high commissioner for human rights said on Wednesday.

“Simultaneous targeting of thousands of individuals, whether civilians or members of armed groups, without knowledge as to who was in possession of the targeted devices, their location and their surroundings at the time of the attack, violates international human rights law and, to the extent applicable, international humanitarian law,” Volker Türk said in a statement, reports Agence France-Presse (AFP).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/18/middle-east-crisis-live-hezbollah-pager-explosion-lebanon-irael-iran-latest-updates?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-66ead62c8f085fa2473a394e#block-66ead62c8f085fa2473a394e

if you want DU to consist entirely of agreeing with the American far right, without being able to voice similar views to respected international politicians, you're wishing for a crappy DU.

[TheKentuckian]

196. If they are worried about escalation or civilian casualties they should prioritize stopping the attacks

Otherwise it is some bullshit whining and lying to protect the terrorists.

[JoseBalow]

171. Why did Israel invade Lebanon?

[muriel_volestrangler]

176. Because of the PLO - a quite different grouping from Hezbollah (nt)

[JoseBalow]

213. Which ones blew up the US Marines barracks?

[EX500rider]

216. "is a suitable sentence, carried out without trial" You don't seem to have a firm grasp on how war works

Trials are not necessary to kill the enemy.
Has Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets at Israeli towns? yes. Then declared or not, they are at war with Israel.
So Israel does not need a trial to kill Hezbollah operatives in time of war.

Do you think members of the Taliban or ISIS got trials before US did drone strikes?

[muriel_volestrangler]

219. War? Israel has signed agreements not to use booby traps in war

In the second world war, guerrilla forces scattered large quantities of booby-trapped objects likely to be attractive to civilians. The idea was to cause widescale and indiscriminate death. The Japanese manufactured a tobacco pipe with a charge detonated by a spring-loaded striker. The Italians produced a headset that blew up when it was plugged in. More than half a century later, a global treaty came into force which “prohibited in all circumstances to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects that are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material”. Has anyone told Israel and its jubilant supporters that, as Brian Finucane of the International Crisis Group points out, it is a signatory to the protocol?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/sep/18/the-guardian-view-on-israels-booby-trap-war-and-unacceptable

I can see people saying "the situation is so serious with Hezbollah that we have had to ignore the norms of international behaviour to stop them". It's the glee that a few DUers are expressing at the way the Hezbollah members have been maimed or killed that's distasteful, and the mocking of other DUers who don't share their joy at the maiming. Worst is "the American far right won't like it if DU is not fully on board with using booby traps".

[leftyladyfrommo]

76. That was really clever. I can't really

feel too sorry for Hezbollah. They would have done the same thing if they had thought of it.

Does this also mean they can't communicate with each other?

[rollin74]

83. Yes. Extreme communication difficulties for Hezbollah now

They were advised by their leadership months ago to stop using or destroy their phones to avoid tracking by Israel.

Pagers were handed out and terrorists told they were a safer option.

[leftyladyfrommo]

84. Honestly that sounds like a movie plot.

I keep getting the feeling we are living through extraordinary times. Up is down and down is up.

Middle Eastern terrorists tend to think outside the box.

[AloeVera]

188. Curious about something, since you raised it.

If Hezbollah had done the same thing to IDF soldiers at home with their families and friends in Israel, or out in the streets or markets - what do you think Israel and the U.S. would call that? A clever and genius move or the terrorism it would rightly deserve to be called?

Terror is terror, no matter who does it or what side you're on.

[kjones]

127. Wow, a lot of people love indiscriminate violence here.

Picked a hell of a time to start browsing DU again. Guess I needed a reminder of how quick liberals are to abandon their "values."

[marybourg]

133. This was the opposite of "indiscriminate ". It was very

discriminating; it targeted only members of a terrorist organization.

That organization refused to stop blasting missiles at Israel, even though Israel asked “pretty please” several times, in accord with the wishes of the far left, which doesn’t believe Israel has the right to defend itself — other than asking “pretty please” — no matter how discriminatingly done,

[notroot]

143. No inconsistency. Lifelong liberal and never has supporting terrorists been one of my values.

They should not have waged war on Israel if they didn't want to reap the fruits of their labor.

Hezbollah can make peace with Israel any time they want. All they have to do is stop shooting 10s of thousands of rockets into Israel targeting Israeli civilians.

Actual civilians, I mean... not terrorists with Hezbollah beepers.

[NoRethugFriends]

157. indiscriminate is targeting Hezbollah members??

You're twisting yourself into a pretzel

[Tarc]

195. "indiscriminate"

?si=1Rzs5MrJJG3Q_64x

[Patton French]

215. Wow, a lot of people give certain people a pass here. NT

[claudette]

131. Yep

Israel doing what it does best. Killing innocent people. What a disgrace.

[Coventina]

144. Yawn

[madaboutharry]

145. I will join you...

Yawn

[Raine]

220. Yup 😴 nt

[BrianTheEVGuy]

159. Yeah!

Those poor, poor Hizbollah terrorists. Thanks to Israel’s genocidal war crimes, the world is being deprived of people who fire rockets at schools and kill schoolchildren!

Those poor innocent jihadists will never see another day. Who willl decapitate LGBT people now that the Zionists have murdered all those Hizbollah fighters?!?!? Who will take civilian hostages and sexually assault them? Who will kill civilians who don’t agree with their political demands? Who will force women to cover themselves in burkas and stay at home unless accompanied by their father or husband?

This is a great loss for all of us.

[Raine]

221. Agree

I love your sarcasm.

[walkingman]

161. Shameful - never underestimate nasty people.

[sarisataka]

165. I can hear it...

[Coventina]

189. You got that right! n/t