This message was self-deleted by its author

[kentuck]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kentuck) on Wed Sep 18, 2024, 09:31 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[malaise]

1. To be pellucidly clear, it is terrorism

which is what it would have been called had it been executed by Russia, China, Iran or indeed Hamas.
Western silence speaks volumes.

That is all

[bullimiami]

3. I agree.

[Dave Bowman]

8. There's some outraged reactions, not as much as it should, though.

"More blasts heard in Beirut as world leaders sound alarm over pager explosions’ ‘disregard’ for civilians"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/18/middle-east-crisis-live-hezbollah-pager-explosion-lebanon-irael-iran-latest-updates

[tritsofme]

38. What's pellucidly clear is that someone sure has a sad that Israel took out some of their latter day Nelson Mandela

freedom fighting buddies! Poor Hezbollah!

[madaboutharry]

44. For you tritsofme:

[._.]

2. The Mossad doesn't play.

Hezbollah fucked around and found out.

[Doc Sportello]

5. Thousands of innocent people "found out"

So far 12 have been killed and thousands of people were injured. Even if all 12 were Hezbollah that still means thousands were injured who weren't. But terrorism is ok when it's Israel, right?

[onenote]

11. Thousands of "innocent people"? So Hezboallah's members are "innocents"?

The reports indicate that around 3000 of the pagers were purchased and distributed by Hezbollah to its members. The reports also indicate that around 2800 were injured by the pagers. In what version of math were "thousands" of the pagers in the hands of non-Hezbollah innocents?

Maybe you just don't think of Hezbollah as a terrorist group?

[hlthe2b]

4. I agree. Sadly, I have seen posts laughing and celebrating this. I mentioned listening to BBC when some of these

detonations occurred and thus getting a real-time horrific (albeit "second-hand" account) of the aftermath. If the pager was worn on the waist, the trauma to the stomach, liver, spleen, diaphragm, or other lower thoracic, or upper abdominal organs would very likely be irreparable--even if blood loss and shock were not fatal. Those close enough to the individual (a child being held, for instance) would also suffer massive and likely fatal injuries. The BBC reporter (with war experience) was clearly unnerved and barely able to continue.

No matter how just one might find the cause, is this massive and potentially untargeted "booby-trapping" really something to be laughed at even if one considers it "ethical"? Are we so willing to abandon our humanity?

I have no intention of fighting the "justifications' or conversely, condemnations with those on either side. But as one who has seen their share of trauma, I shudder at this 'new' delivery system. sigh...

[yardwork]

6. War is hell. War is evil.

I support Kamala Harris's call for a permanent ceasefire and meaningful compromise that will allow both Israelis and Palestinians to live in safety, dignity and peace.

Iran must stop firing missiles into Israel, killing thousands of innocent people. Hamas must stop terrorist strikes on Israel. Israel must stop bombing Gaza.

Unfortunately, neither Hamas nor Hezbollah show any indications of stopping, so Israel continues to do what they think they must to protect themselves.

[sarisataka]

7. What happened to the civilized old days

Last edited Wed Sep 18, 2024, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

when if you had a dispute with your neighbors you kicked in people's doors to have an orgy of rape and murder? Do things face to face.
{thought I better add it}

[Nanjeanne]

9. I imagine if a terror cell in the US had been discovered and pagers sold and then exploded in markets,

schools, restaurants, streets, subways, etc and nearly 3000 people injured, 100s critically, applause for the act would be muted.

[Johnny2X2X]

10. This is my position as well

Making bombs out of electronic devices and then releasing them into a population is not OK. Even if you thought Hezbollah would have most of the devices, you had to know many of them would be in the hands of innocents when they exploded. Pager use is still common in many countries that have poor cellular infrastructure. For all they knew, Hezbollah took possession of a fraction of the devices they turned into bombs. Or the ones they did take possession of were maybe sold or given to civilians. Only 2 of the now 12 dead were confirmed Hezbollah members (that could rise), if that ratio applies to the injured you're talking about thousands of innocent civilians who were seriusly injured. 2 of the 12 dead were children.

This is a horrific turn in modern warfare that cannot be seen as acceptable or clever. There's no such thing as Hezbollah pagers, they had no way of knowing where they pagers would end up. They didn't selectively set them off based on intellligence telling them who is using them, they blew all of them up. I cannot imagine if a country now turns thosuands of Americans' phones into bombs if we're at war with their country.

This was an act of terror.

[sarisataka]

12. The only way to keep pushing that narrative is to ignore Hezbollah's own statements

that they purchased those pagers specifically for distribution to their members and allies. They never were intended for release into the population, nor is there any evidence they were given to anyone other than Hezbollah members.

Strange how numbers change; I recall when the death toll was eight, six of them were Hezbollah members.

[Johnny2X2X]

15. Hezbollah didn't say "these" pagers

They said they purchased “pagers”. Assuming they were all supposed only be with Hezbollah members is a big leap. This was a mass attack with significant civilian casualties as the perpetrators of the attack knew there would be.

If Hezbollah didn’t this to Israeli military it would also be seen as a terror attack. This is not within the rules of war.

[newdeal2]

19. Who is normally using pagers in 2024?

They have smartphones in Lebanon just like every other country. It’s a leap to say that regular innocent civilians were using these pagers. Any innocent deaths or injuries were most likely due to their proximity to someone who was the intended target.

[Johnny2X2X]

20. 2 children were killed

And pagers are still used in many countries, including the US.

This is not an acceptable form of warfare. We do not want people turning our phones into bombs and for people to just think that's clever and funny.

[newdeal2]

23. Again most likely due to proximity

Maybe their father was the target and they were in the same room. I’m not excusing it but let’s not pretend kids are using pagers these days, it’s a pretty ancient technology that has almost no use to 99% of the population.

[Johnny2X2X]

26. These xplosions weren't powerful enough to kill without the pager being against your body

So either killed because they were given the pagers or maybe their parent was holding them wehn it exploded.

Either way, this was a significant escalation and a horrific change in tactics for modern warfare that I hope we don;t start seeing all over the world now.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

28. So the terrorists were hiding amongst innocent population?

Good to know they love their children so much to use them as human shields.

[sarisataka]

21. If Hezbollah did it to the Israeli population it would be terrorism, if

they did it to the IDF I would not call it terrorism. If it is targeted at enemy combatants, it is not against any "rule of war".

Over 3,000 pagers were ordered from Gold Apollo, the {Hezbollah} officials said. Hezbollah distributed the pagers to its members throughout Lebanon, with some reaching the group’s allies in Iran and Syria, the officials said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/17/world/middleeast/hezbollah-pager-explosions-lebanon.html

"Significant civilian casualties"- can you provide a link to any estimate of the number of non-Hezbollah members. DU has thrown out wide speculation and claims but Hezbollah has indicated they most, if not nearly all, of the casualties.

[PCIntern]

13. I don't see posts demanding that Hezbollah and Iran

stop sending missiles into the inhabited areas of a sovereign country.

This will give the terrorists something to think about: they can’t trust anything or anyone.

[kentuck]

14. I'm just saying this is an escalation of unknown proportion.

What's next?

[PCIntern]

18. What's next?

If a rocket landed in your front yard and injured or killed family members, you’d be asking that question demanding to know what your government is going to do to halt this.

It has been answered in part. This is up there in sophistication with the Entebbe raid.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

29. Mossad has certainly been reminding the terrorists what happens when you FAFO NT

[atreides1]

46. Well

If any rockets landed in my front yard they would be fired by the Russians or Trump Americans. Of course there isn't much difference between the two!

But, this is about Israel...and since I don't have any family in Israel...I'm not really concerned!

[rollin74]

17. Exactly

Not sure how the Hezbollah terrorists are going to communicate now since Nasrallah told them to destroy their phones months ago. He said their phones were more dangerous than Israeli spies.

They can’t trust anything now.

[Mosby]

35. Signal mirrors and morse code.

[sarisataka]

22. Sending missile and rockets is 'different'

I am trying to recall the outcry when Hezbollah dropped a rocket onto a soccer field and killed twelve children about six weeks ago. Even searching I cannot find 1% of the condemnation this is receiving compared to the killing of Israeli children.

[sarisataka]

39. Ironically in that attack most of those killed were Druze Christians

but to terrorist eyes (and their supporters), anyone in Israel is at least an "honorary Jew".

[EllieBC]

40. It's a toss up

but Christians might rank slightly lower than Jews on the Give A Fuck scale for some.

[asm128]

32. So quick to defend the deaths of children

Not surprising, but sad.

[newdeal2]

16. They made a calculated decision

I don’t envy whoever made the call but this was clearly not spur of the moment, it required incredible planning over a long period of time.

[wnylib]

24. Your OP heading is misleading. It implies that thousands of civilians were killed.

Initial reports said that 9 people were killed, 8 of them Hezbollah fighters and one of them the daughter of a fighter. Later figures are 14 dead, 3 of them civilians.

Numbers for the injured vary according to who is reporting them, from to 2800 to 3000. Most of them are members of Hezbollah. Some are civilians connected with Hezbollah.

There is already fighting between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah has been attacking Israel since the 10/7 Hamas terrorist attacks. Israel is fighting back.

Yes, it will escalate the existing war between Israel and two Iranian backed terrorist organizations. War is never good because of the deaths and destruction. Terrorists initiated the war. Israel is taking the war to the terrorists in self- defense.

The terrorists who initiated war against Israel count on people to sympathize with them when Israel fights back.

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?si=BXClXWON4ZyhLSzn

[Bev54]

30. Terrorism in reverse - terrorism against the terrorists.

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Hezbollah was founded in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon

"The terrorists who initiated war" is a dangerous phrase to throw around.

https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hizballah.html

[Bev54]

25. Today it is Hezbollah 2-way radios blowing up.

Incredible how they have managed to do this. Had to have been done somewhere before they were delivered to Hezbollah.

[hlthe2b]

31. One might wonder how many incidents of "booby-trapped" cell phones in this country would have to occur...

to destroy an entire industry and render many or most Americans afraid to carry one? (No need to point out the current issue is with beepers and walkie-talkies--there is little stretch to extend such efforts to cell phones). They may be unintended consequences, but as with most new methods to deliver death, destruction, torture, and terror, there will be consequences far beyond the immediate and readily predictable. One has to shudder at the possible extension of such tactics to the poisoning of food or water. It seems there are few limits to the imagination when fueled by hate, revenge, and war...

[Bev54]

36. They were carrying pagers and 2-way radios because of the fear of hacking on cell phones.

This operation would have taken someone to physically insert explosives in the hardware they are carrying. So it had to be somewhere in the distribution line.

[hlthe2b]

43. I am very much aware of the details, including that the beepers were supposedly manufactured in Taiwan,

but believed to be transported to Hungary where explosives were installed and the technology to respond to a common detonator.

As I stated in my full post, I am very well aware that we are talking pagers and walkie-talkies here and why (concern over Israel surveillance efforts for cell phones). That is not the point. It is a mere small step from this to terrorists or other criminals using similar methods to target individuals with cell phones or other similarly horrendous tactics using technology or mass exposures like poisoned food or water. Where the hell does it end?

[Hobo]

27. One of the greatest...

Moves I have ever heard of. Bravo!

Hobo

[WarGamer]

33. And the circle goes round and round... next it'll be bombings in pizza parlors

And attacks at music festivals.

Round and round.

[pat_k]

34. Today walkie talkies (nt)

[Richard D]

42. And yet . . .

. . . I have not seen any statements of outrage regarding the 19,000 missiles shot into Israel since Oct 7 with 3,100 of those being from Lebanon.

Also ignored is the fact that the pagers are Hezbollah's main form of communication and are an important tool in their terror attacks against Israel.

[EllieBC]

45. As I stated above

There are people who don’t care about dead Jews. Especially dead Israeli Jews. Unless they can be used for some online point bonus.

[kentuck]

47. I don't like the direction this is going so I am deleting.

Emotions are too high to discuss rationally imo.