No, pro Palestinian leftists, Israel is not committing genocide

[DSandra]

It's been almost a year since the October 7th attacks. According to the Gaza authorities own numbers, out of more than 2 million Gaza citizens, only 40,000 people have been killed (that number includes Hamas members.). Yes, the 41,000 people killed is a tragedy, but Israel is in a war with terrorists that keep on shooting missiles to terrorize and kill Israel's citizens. Who would be passive against that? And that is not genocide, genocide would have a far higher death toll. Here's a history of death toll numbers since Oct 7th as reported by the Gaza Health Ministry:

January 21: 25,000 people

March 11: 31,112 people

May 13: 35,000+ people.

July 21: 38,919 people

September 28: 41,586 people

The death toll has actually been slowing, and still remains a small fraction of the entire population of Gaza. That's not a genocide.

Using the accusations of genocide to support a refusal to vote for Kamala is pure ignorance and pretty much aiding the enemy, who would love nothing more than to imprison all of us on the left, or even worse.

[TomWilm]

1. Why We Need a New Term for Mass Atrocities

In the Israel-Hamas war, accusations of an Israeli “genocide” against the people of Gaza have created fierce debate and, consequently, warrant a reappraisal of the meaning of the term. Far from the historical and legal definition of the word, accusations of genocide against Israel have transformed the very essence of the word. ...

Over time, the meaning of genocide has been diluted by overuse, as poignantly illustrated by Russian President Vladimir Putin’s invocation of “genocide” as justification to invade Ukraine. Since the Hamas attacks of October 7, genocide has come to be treated as a derogatory epithet against Israel as it tries to navigate the near-impossible battle space of Gaza.

In this context, it is important to remember the central role of intent in the crime of genocide. And genocidal intent is famously difficult to prove. ... If Israel chose to adopt a policy of genocidal killing, it would look much different than what has transpired. The war between Hamas and Israel is bloody and protracted; it is not genocide. Israel is at war with Hamas; not with the Palestinian people. ...

As a modern replacement for genocide, consider the new term that will translate to “extinction killing” — exaleipsicide –— from Greek and Latin. Extinction is the elimination of a distinct group of people for all time. The international crime of exaleipsicide will be the intentional elimination of an entire group for all time vis-à-vis the act of murder. To be guilty of extinction killing, a person or persons must seek to extinguish a whole group in person, artifact, and ultimately memory as if the group never existed. ..."

The Dilution of 'Genocide': Why We Need a New Term for Mass Atrocities - Legal Commentary

[soandso]

99. It's an overused word

but it's application, in this case, is actually within the scope of what the guy who coined the phrase defined. It's the killing of a tribe and/or decimating the place where it lives and it's culture, as well as things like outlawing their spoken language (which post coup Ukraine did to it's huge ethnic Russian population). The man who coined the term was Jewish and it became synonymous with the ethnic cleansing and killing of Jews in Europe. That said, show me a war of any major significance where one couldn't make this accusation, against of any of the belligerents. I really don't like the word and find mass killing would suffice.

[Mysterian]

116. We already have one....

It's "war."

[FlyingPiggy]

125. Whether we like to admit it or not, the Palestinian people harbored Hamas.

There is no way Hamas could run operations underneath the gaza hospital without complicity. They lost me there from the beginning. This is obviously deeply rooted and people in that region will never rest until they occupy isreal. They attacked unprovoked during a time of peace. Why they went up against a Goliath w a batshit crazy, trigger happy lunatic like Netanyahu at the helm is not by accident. They WANT to create this discord. They WANT this instability. WAR IS UGLY. There will be deaths. It is shocking to me that anyone who proclaims to be a democrat, to honor democracy, would in any way support Hamas and the people complicit in supporting this terrorist group.

[TomWilm]

130. That hospital story is still disputed ...

... but I agree in your description of Hamas. Though I also find Israel's actions shocking, and do not understand people who support such a government, which are behaving like a terrorist group.

[RidinWithHarris]

2. It's 2% of the population, one out of every 50 people

With that many dead, think of how many people have been injured, how many are now missing limbs or otherwise suffering life-long complications.

It's enough so that nearly everyone will have lost family and friends, that many will be providing care for disabled family and friends for decades to come.

It's enough to ensure counter-productive ongoing hatred of Israel. It's enough to be both evil and stupid.

[Beastly Boy]

35. If not to insure ongoing hatred of Israel, why do so many people who know better insist on calling it genocide?

That's the issue in the OP.

Cause and effect, no matter how you spin it.

[RidinWithHarris]

42. I don't the the word choice is the biggest problem here n/t

[Beastly Boy]

44. It shows very pronounced anti-Israel bias.

Not the biggest problem, but the one being repeatedly employed for that purpose, the schtick that is being repeatedly used to skirt bigger problems.

[RidinWithHarris]

46. A lot of people aren't precise with words

You can't always read an agenda into word choices like that.

[Beastly Boy]

57. If this were to happen once or twice in a blue moon, you could blame it on imprecise wording.

But this happens routinely, and is being repeated and amplified with remarkable consistency, in all sorts of channels of discourse.

Identical imprecision in wording, again and again and again. Sounds suspiciously like an agenda.

[RidinWithHarris]

68. No, just suspiciously like a very common for of imprecision

Going in the opposite direction of lethality, think of how many people use the word "decimate" to mean obliterated, wiped-out, etc., rather than the excruciatingly correct meaning, killing one tenth of a group or population.

A whole lot of people think genocide means "killing a lot of people of a racial or ethnic group" and don't fully grasp the aspect of total annihilation of those people. The only "remarkable consistency" how is common this imprecision is, and/or how many people are so accustomed to using hyperbole for emotional effect they don't equate their hyperbole with making a particular incendiary accusation.

At any rate, you can bet that some members of Bibi's extreme right coalition would love to go full, true genocide if they could get away with it. Bibi himself? Whatever amount of killing keeps him in power for as long as possible (hey, nothing personal!).

[Beastly Boy]

84. To use your example, "decimate" is not a legal term. "Genocide" is.

Hence, it is not possible to mistake "decimate" for an accusation of committing a war crime. "Genocide", on the other hand, is routinely being used as an accusation of a war crime, and it is being used so exclusively in reference to Israel, particularly by the pro-Palestinian leftists. Have you heard them use "genocide" in reference to Syria with the same persistence and unanimity? China? Turkey? Iraq?

This is not just a common form of imprecision. It is a common form of targeted imprecision, and a common form of biased imprecision.

Which casts a great deal of doubt on this form of imprecision being unintentionally imprecise.

[RidinWithHarris]

85. So you think most people think of "genocide" as a legal term?

Puhlease.

Hell, people will say things like "Putting ketchup on hot dog is a crime!", and, new flash: The do not actually mean the police should come and take the misuser of condiments away in handcuffs.

[Beastly Boy]

88. Of course not. They pretend to think of it as a legal term while being willfuly ignorant of what it entails.

They accuse Israel of a war crime while knowing nothing about what constitutes a crime. Their intent is incendiary, and they mean it. Obviously, their intent is not to call the cops on you. Their intent is to normalize the use of a legal term and the stigma attached to it as an derogatory term to describe Israel. And you can see the effects of their agenda in the skyrocketing number of antisemitic attacks worldwide.

Yes, I am implying that there is a direct connection between the agenda of the pro-Palestinian left and antisemitism. And I am implying that I resent it and I am personally threatened by it.

This ain't no putting ketchup on a hot dog. Don't pretend it is.

[RidinWithHarris]

96. "They pretend to think of it as a legal term"?

What? Let's just say your ability to get into other people's heads and impute their intentions and motivations isn't as good as you might imagine it to be. You aren't good at this.

[Beastly Boy]

107. Some shocking news:

You don't have to get into people's heads to detect a commonly used fallacy. Believe it or not, it's been done before, without anyone being particularly offended by the practice.

And believe me, I am really good at detecting fallacies.

Which reminds me: have you ever heard of a Strawman's fallacy? Look it up, what you will find out might appear to you uncomfortably familiar.

[RidinWithHarris]

115. But you're not just pointing out a fallacy, not just pointing out the word "genocide" being used incorrectly

You're ascribing a motive and intention to that incorrect usage.

"If not to insure ongoing hatred of Israel, why do so many people who know better insist on calling it genocide?"

The problem here is the "so many people who know better". Do so many people actually know better? Every last one you're prone to lob this accusation at?

"It shows very pronounced anti-Israel bias."

Are you really so sure it isn't just an anti-current-Israel government well-earned opinion?

[Beastly Boy]

118. Wasn't it obvious from the start?

It's not "just" a fallacy. It's a well known, commonly deployed in reference to Israel alone, frequently copied verbatim and therefore easily recognized fallacious argument intended for a specific reason I pointed out earlier. The ongoing conspicuous proliferation of this conspicuously rigid fallacious argument routinely aimed at a conspicuously unique target in conspicuously derogatory terms rules out universal ignorance by so many people. They know better, with the possible few exceptions of those who grossly underestimate their ignorance. And it does show very pronounced anti-Israel bias on their part, ignoramuses included.

I am ascribing a motive and an intention to the deliberate misuse of the term with a specific purpose in mind, not merely incorrect usage on their part.

Are you proposing that the majority of those misusing the term "genocide" are all hopelessly ignorant and don't know any better? Every last one I am prone to lob this accusation at?

Are you really so sure that all the accusations of genocide against Israel are well earned and not just a circumstance of incorrect verbiage?

Make up your mind.

[RidinWithHarris]

123. What do I need to make my mind up about?

Are you proposing that the majority of those misusing the term "genocide" are all hopelessly ignorant and don't know any better?

Yep. I'm proposing exactly that. Have you met people? They're like that. Imprecise in language, prone to hyperbole, not legalistically minded.

Can I know the exact percentage? No. Are some people using "genocide" knowing exactly what it means? Sure, some. I'm merely applying Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

"Stupidity" is a bit of a harsh word to apply here, however. Casual imprecision is more like it.

It's a well known, commonly deployed in reference to Israel alone...

Well known? Again, have you met people? Well known to whom? There's a whole lot most people don't know. Think of the last Q&A session you've seen on TV with undecided voters. That's the American intellect for you. Painful, ain't it?

And this comes up in regard to Israel so often simply because Israel is one of the few countries on this planet who's been doing a shitload of bombing on and off for decades targeted at Palestinians and other Arabs and Muslims. There are other conflicts in this world that would get the word "genocide" going in how people talk about them, like Darfur, if only our news media talked about such things more often.

Now that Russia has been bombing the hell out of Ukraine, however, I've definitely heard people call that either genocide or attempted genocide, so it's not only Israel that gets this treatment.

[Beastly Boy]

124. Did you ever come across an OP on DU containing instances of violence in Gaza?

Did you ever notice a whole bunch of replies, regardless of their relevance to the OP, that had "genocide" charges thrown against Israel?

I've seen it time and again, and I would find it hard to believe if you were to claim you haven't.

Are you proposing that all of these responders, who are otherwise largely articulate and fairly erudite, are hopelessly ignorant and don't know any better? If you are, their presumed ignorance would appear extremely focused on applying this term to Israel, and it alone - the same posters are very unlikely to be found applying "genocide" to any other international conflicts, including those that fit the legal definition of genocide.

If you take their ignorance for granted, which I don't, it is not at all their general state of ignorance. It clearly indicates intent to be ignorant in a chosen circumstance, excluding all others.

Now, look at the college students who use the term "genocide" in reference to Israel in a similar way. You don't get to be generally ignorant and remain a student in an elite university for long, do you?

Let's go further: look at their professors, the country's intellectual elites, who misuse the term "genocide". Are you suggesting they are ignorant too?

What about elected officials, spokespeople for various organizations, media outlets and advocacy groups? Their use of "genocide" as a derogatory term applied to Israel and Israel alone is not exactly unheard of. Are they all ignorant?

Sorry, your proposition that "genocide" is a mere generic hyperbole and casual imprecision just doesn't hold water.

[betsuni]

127. +1

[RidinWithHarris]

128. I suppose if you have a suspicious nature...

...it doesn't hold water. Not much I can do to change your attitude, I'll just don't share it. That kind of suspicion is more typical of conservative personalities, however.

[Beastly Boy]

129. When one detects suspiciously consistent narrative patterns, it would be pure folly to not acknowledge them.

This is equally true for liberals, conservatives, piano players, albinos, Hawaians and Sufi dervish dancers.

[DSandra]

63. It seems like hatred of Israel is the root

But calling it genocide and using that as a bludgeon to attack anyone that supports Israel or is supportive of Democrats is unfair.

[Blue Full Moon]

3. 2 wrongs does not make it right.

It's the removal of people from their land and homes. Just a page from history. Like the removal of Native Americans because of a Papal Bull or in this case use the Old Testament in the Bible. Just over look the fact Israel murdered a record number of Palestinian children including American citizens right before the conflict started.

This mess is the need of Netanyahu to stay in power. The same as a desperate tRump needs to get back in power.

In the end 2 wrongs do not make it right.

[RAB910]

4. You don't get to claim the moral high ground after Israel murders over 100,000 innocent people

[BannonsLiver]

33. So Hamas' made up death toll is up to 100k now?

Why not just claim a million at this point?

[womanofthehills]

98. " Gaza toll could exceed 186,000, Lancet study says"

In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37?396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186?000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza. Using the 2022 Gaza Strip population estimate of 2?375?259, this would translate to 7·9% of the total population in the Gaza Strip. A report from Feb 7, 2024, at the time when the direct death toll was 28?000, estimated that without a ceasefire there would be between 58?260 deaths (without an epidemic or escalation) and 85?750 deaths (if both occurred) by Aug 6, 2024.10

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

[Rob H.]

51. According to a study published in The Lancet this July

Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2024, 04:56 PM - Edit history (1)

the estimated number of direct and indirect deaths at that point was up to 186,000 or even more, with an estimated 10,000+ bodies (at that time) still buried in the rubble.

[EX500rider]

56. The same Lancet with the totally BS causalities figures from the 2nd Persian Gulf War against Iraq?

The Lancet, one of the oldest scientific medical journals in the world, published two peer-reviewed studies on the effect of the 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent occupation on the Iraqi mortality rate.

The Iraq Body Count project (IBC), who compiles a database of reported civilian deaths, has criticised the Lancet's estimate of 601,000 violent deaths[26] out of the Lancet estimate of 654,965 total excess deaths related to the war.
An October 2006 article by IBC argues that the Lancet estimate is suspect "because of a very different conclusion reached by another random household survey, the Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004 (ILCS), using a comparable method but a considerably better-distributed and much larger sample."
IBC also enumerates several "shocking implications" which would be true if the Lancet report were accurate, e.g. "Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued" and claims that these "extreme and improbable implications" and "utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas" are some of several reasons why they doubt the study's estimates.
IBC states that these consequences would constitute "extreme notions".[27] Later statements in a 2010 article by IBC say that the "hugely exaggerated death toll figures" from the 2006 Lancet report have "been comprehensively discredited" by recently published research.

Beth Osborne Daponte, a demographer known for producing death estimates for the first Gulf War, evaluates the Lancet survey and other sources in a paper for the International Review of the Red Cross.[34]
Among other criticisms, Daponte questions the reliability of pre-war estimates used in the Lancet study to derive its "excess deaths" estimate, and the ethical approval for the survey. She concludes that the most reliable information available to date is provided by the Iraq Family Health Survey, the Iraq Living Conditions Survey and Iraq Body Count.

A 2010 paper by Professor Michael Spagat entitled "Ethical and Data-Integrity Problems in the Second Lancet Survey of Mortality in Iraq" was published in the peer reviewed journal Defense & Peace Economics.
This paper argues that there were several "ethical violations to the survey's respondents", faults the study authors for "non-disclosure of the survey's questionnaire, data-entry form, data matching anonymised interviewer identifications with households and sample design", and presents "evidence relating to data fabrication and falsification, which falls into nine broad categories."
The paper concludes that the Lancet survey, "cannot be considered a reliable or valid contribution towards knowledge about the extent of mortality in Iraq since 2003."

Steven E. Moore, who conducted survey research in Iraq for the Coalition Provisional Authority and was an advisor to Paul Bremer for the International Republican Institute, ridiculed the Lancet study in an 18 October 2006 editorial in the Wall Street Journal.
In a piece entitled, "655,000 War Dead? A bogus study on Iraq casualties", Moore wrote, "I wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points. Neither would anyone else...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties

[Rob H.]

59. So you think an entirely different study by an entirely different team of researchers

published 14 years ago is relevant to this discussion?

Hilarious. But not unexpected.

[EX500rider]

90. Somehow I doubt Hamas is underestimating the causality figures

Last edited Mon Sep 30, 2024, 12:00 AM - Edit history (1)

When it is their best interest to inflate them.

However, the number of reported deaths is likely an underestimate. likely sounds super scientific & certain...lol

In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37?396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186?000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.

lol, so a figure they basically made up

Rasha Khatiba & Salim Yusufd certainly sound unbiased...lol

[Rob H.]

119. About ALL of the authors:

Last edited Mon Sep 30, 2024, 09:02 AM - Edit history (3)

MM is a member of the editorial board of the Israel Journal of Health Policy Research and of the International Advisory Committee of the Israel National Institute for Health Policy Research. MM was co-chair of the Institute's 2016 6th International Jerusalem Conference on Health Policy, but writes in a personal capacity. He also collaborates with researchers in Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon. RK and SY declare no competing interests. The authors would like to acknowledge study team members Shofiqul Islam and Safa Noreen for their contribution to collecting and managing the data for this Correspondence.

Further:

Israeli Intelligence Has Deemed Hamas-Run Health Ministry’s Death Toll Figures Generally Accurate
Mitchell Prothero
January 25, 2024, 12:06pm

Israeli intelligence services have studied civilian casualty figures released by the Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza and concluded the figures were generally accurate, despite earlier public claims by U.S. and Israeli officials that the ministry’s statistics are manipulated.

According to a story in Mekomit by Yuval Avraham, who last year broke news about the Israeli military’s use of AI for targeting purposes, the numbers were accepted for inclusion in briefings to senior Israeli officials after intelligence services conducted operations and analysis to monitor the health ministry’s information collection methods and its internal communications and determined the statistics were credible. An Israeli intelligence official confirmed the Israeli government’s use of the Gaza ministry numbers to VICE News, while two officials from European intelligence services said they were widely used in official briefings internationally.

“The numbers are heavily relied up for official briefings on civilian casualties because with the exception of strikes on high-value targets, where senior officials are briefed on collateral damage, no civilian casualty figures or estimates are collected,” said the Israeli official, who cannot be identified in the media. “A lot of targets have been hit without prior analysis or estimates and there’s never any follow up collection.”

“You don’t know exactly how many you killed, and who you killed,” an IDF military targeter told Mekomit.

[DemonGoddess]

5. It is genocide

Netanyahu's Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians and absolutely does NOT want a two state solution.

[malaise]

8. Correct

[moniss]

13. This woman is terrific

speaking truth to power.

[malaise]

15. She is the Prime Minister of Barbados

She is always fearless

[moniss]

16. I especially liked her point

about the financial backers who supply and keep the conflicts going.

[malaise]

18. Yep

The truth

[soandso]

113. I'll see your book of Samuel and raise you the book or Romans

Well, played, Madame Mottley.

[elias7]

11. So wrong. Genocide is INTENTIONAL killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity or race

The Arab violence and non-acceptance of Israel began before Netanyahu was born. Israel has been open to a two state solution since the 1930’s and it is the Arabs who have thwarted the peace process at every turn.

Yet, the Palestinian Arab Israelis have flourished in number, the Palestinian Arab refugees in Gaza and the West Bank have flourished in number, while Israel has been accused of genocide for decades. I guess you just don’t believe that Israel has gone to extraordinary efforts to avoid killing civilians that Hamas currently hides among and behind, which if true, belies the concept of genocide. I guess you don’t believe that Hamas hides behind civilians and their goal is as many civilian deaths as possible to force the international community to act against Israel, because that actually would be doubly genocidal on the part of Hamas, as they are similarly heel bent on destroying the Jews.

Try this exercise. Write down the case for and against genocide on the part of Israel and see if you can really convince anyone without an agenda if genocide is actually happening. Obviously from your response to the OP, if the fact that only 10,000 (how many are combatants?) killed in the past 6 months doesn’t move your goalpost, I’m thinking nothing will.

[Jirel]

17. Wholly incorrect.

But don’t believe me. Read the definition of genocide under the Genocide convention, as posted/explained by the Holocaust Museum.
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide

Also, forget your “exercise.” That “exercise” has been done by multiple groups of legal scholars, who have concluded that yes, this is genocide, and here is how we lay out a case against the Israeli government for genocide in front of the ICC. Here’s a link regarding the work of a consortium of human rights groups via Boston University.
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2024/is-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza/

Hamas’ horrific attack does not in any way justify genocide. Nothing does.

[Mosby]

23. Quote

The crime of genocide requires that a perpetrator kill, seriously harm, or inflict conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of a group, in whole or in part, with the intent to destroy the group as such.

Israel is trying to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah but those two terrorist groups use civilians and civilian buildings as cover.

It's the two of them who have been trying to commit genocide for decades, but keep failing.

[DSandra]

32. You might have a point here

The population of Gaza in 1950 was around 240,000 people, as of 2020 it was approximately 2,000,000 people (and now about approximately 2,200,000 people.)

The population of the West Bank was approx. 770,000 in 1950, it's now 3,200,000 people.

Those numbers don't point to genocide at all.

UPDATE:

Israel didn't control Gaza and the West Bank until 1967, so I will revise my numbers:

The population of Gaza in 1970 was approx. 340,000, now it is approx. 2,200,000.

The population of the West Bank in 1970 was approx. 677,000, now it is approx. 3,200,000.

[DSandra]

26. It's a bloody war between two people with towers of baggage that hate each other

and don't acknowledge the right of each other to exist. Both are guilty.

[susanr516]

82. Sadly, I agree

There are no "good guys" in this situation.

[Beastly Boy]

36. Why would Israel want to wipe out 2 million of its own citizens?

And what are the signs pointing to this intention?

[Cha]

53. It's Not "genocide". Hamas wants to WIPE out Israel.

[elias7]

6. It doesn't matter, they'll just find something else to blame Israel for

The lengths the IDF has gone to avoid civilian casualties is lauded in military circles as unprecedented in urban warfare. They have become so targeted that only 10,000 deaths (which does not distinguish between Hamas combatants and civilians - probably because you can’t tell the difference) in the past 6 months. The problem is that anti-Israelis don’t acknowledge:
1- Israel has a right to exist and defend herself
2- Israel is at war with an enemy that doesn’t acknowledge her right to exist

Just look at the pager incident with Hezbollah. Can you get more targeted than that? Yet most anti-Israelis condemn that act. Do they appreciate that they have acted with utter restraint while Hezbollah has been bombing Israel daily for almost a year, since 10/8, weeks before Israel started bombing in Gaza (Israel waited weeks to allow innocents to move out of announced target areas). But when Israel finally attacks Hezbollah targets, including one of their billionaire leaders, news outlets neglect to report WHY Israel attacked. Hezbollah is a terrorist nation within the nation of Lebanon, funded by Iran, and dedicated to the destruction of the Jews (it’s in their charter).

In the end, Israel doesn’t care what the anti-Israelis think. She is surrounded by a mass of Arab countries who have never accepted the international decision (first, the League of Nations, then the UN) to grant the Jews - refugees from 60 countries around the world and welcome nowhere right to a sovereign state in their ancient homeland. Jews who have always been willing to share the space peacefully, despite what TikTok says, but willing and able to defend herself to attacks for the past 75 years, because she has no choice, nowhere else to go. And contrary to the broken records we hear from anti-Israelis, the skillful ubiquitous disinformation spread by the Islamist machine (they’re even getting college kids to question 9/11) does not change the fact that Israel is fundamentally moral in her choices and actions and has chosen to mostly ignore social media.

[DSandra]

60. And here's the icing on the cake: Pro-Palestine group ties with Hamas

American Muslims for Peace

https://abc7chicago.com/hamas-david-boim-terrorism-american-muslims-for-palestine/14001029/

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Letter-to-National-SJP-5.29


National Students for Justice in Palestine

https://isgap.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/SJP_Report.pdf

Note: The report, while from a pro-Jewish organization, highlights the ties extensively with evidence and citations.

[canuckledragger]

72. Yes it doesn't matter, They'll find some other reason to excuse Bibi's genocide againt the Palestinians.

And some already are.

[Martin Eden]

7. It's ethnic cleansing, not genocide

Netanyahu has flatly rejected any two state solution. It is clear the hardline Zionists are playing the long game for a single state encompassing all the land.

Decades of murderous conflict have convinced them there is no place for a large Palestinian population as citizens with equal rights within Israel. Demographics and birth rates could result in a few generations with Palestianians growing from a large minority to a potential majority, at which point the Jewish State as such would cease to exist.

At this point the two sides are irreconcilable. The bombing campaign in Gaza is likely creating far more future terrorists than killing current Hamas. None of us can imagine what it's like to be forced out of your home, forced to move multiple times to "safe" areas, then be bombed there and see the mangled corpses of your parents, sisters, brothers. I'm trying to describe it, but I really can't imagine it or what it would do to me; I'd probably dedicate my life to revenge.

Israel has a Palestinian problem. There are far too many of them, and they pose too great a danger. Oct 7 was an unspeakable atrocity, and Israel has every right to defend itself. War is a crisis which has elements of danger and opportunity. This war provided an opportunity for the Netanyahu government to rid their country of as many Palestinians as possible. They can't bomb the Palestian people into submission, but they can reduce their numbers and perhaps convince others to leave.

[Jirel]

14. Dear gods.

Ethnic. Cleansing. Is. Genocide.

Your argument could come straight out of modern Nazi talking points.

“Ethnic cleansing” is a relatively new term coined by Slobodan Milosevic to attempt to rebrand genocide in Serbia to be “something else” that isn’t covered by the Genocide Convention, to avoid being charged and tried for genocide by the ICC. Notably, Milosevic’s end came in a prison cell at The Hague after being arrested for genocide by Yugoslavia and handed over to the UN’s International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia.
Read and learn about how and where this euphemism has been used by genocidal dictators since then. https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/ethnic-cleansing-is-a-euphemism-used-for-genocide-denial

[Martin Eden]

21. Then what is the term for mass bombing of civilians and pushing them off their land?

As for your characterization of my argument, I invite you to take a long walk off a short pier.

Do Nazis support the right of Israel to defend itself and to exist as a nation state for the Jewish people?

I do.

Do you think Netanyahu supports a two state solution?

His own statements say otherwise.

Do you think after all that has happened, Jews and Palestinians can live together peacefully as citizens with equal rights in a single state?

I sincerely wish that were possible, but I highly doubt it. The tragic history of this conflict has demonstrated that any effort for peace can be derailed by bad actors committing the next atrocity.

Nothing in the last 100 years of human history compares with the Holocaust, not even the murderous regime of Milosevic. If you say "ethnic cleansing" carries too much baggage I'll accept that, so a different term is needed for Netanyahu's efforts to reduce the Palestinian population within a single state of Israel.

History has also clearly shown that the Jewish people have good reason not to feel secure as guests or even citizens in a country that is not their own. They were long discriminated against in the USA, and neo-Nazis still pose a threat.

There was no perfect solution for a Jewish homeland, but they have a long history and deep roots in the land around Jerusalem. It has taken remarkable bravery and perseverence to survive and thrive in a small area surrounded by a sea of Muslim peoples who mostly don't want them there.

Let me be clear about a few things:

I am not reliigious myself, and bear no ill will towards anyone based on race, religion, or ethnicity.

I always try to understand things logically, not in the heat of emotion.

In my view, Jerusalem should be an international city of peace and brotherhood for those who truly embrace the monotheistic God of Abraham.

Tragically, the opposite has been true.

The question at hand is the likelihood of Jews and a large Palestinian population coexisting peacefully as citizens within a single state of Israel.

I'd like to believe that, but I don’t.

I assert Netanyahu does not, and his actions resulting in the deaths of 40,000 Palestinians are a deliberate strategy.

As for Hamas, they had to know their actions on Oct 7 would reign death on the people they ostensibly serve. I can't get inside their heads, but I suspect it was a desperate ploy to gain worldwide sympathy for Palestinian victimhood as their deaths surpassed 100, 200, 300 times the atrocity of Oct 7.

The goal of Hamas -- driving out the Jews "from the river to the sea" -- is a delusion of twisted hearts and minds.

Hamas is the much bigger obstacle to the ideal of both sides living together in peace within a single nation state.

In the current humanitarian disaster and tragic loss of life, many more hearts and minds are being twisted amid the rubble.

[Beastly Boy]

38. "Do you think after all that has happened, Jews and Palestinians can live together peacefully as citizens with equal

rights in a single state?"

You tell me. There are 2 million Palestinians who are Israeli citizens with equal rights.

Obviously, they are not being ethnically cleansed. So there is no legitimate way to apply "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" equally to all Palestinians. Is Israel committing genocide just a little bit?

Time and again, this inconvenient fact is being deflected from or ignored by those who are pushing these labels as pejoratives, exclusively with respect to Israel, in deliberate disregard for their established meanings.

[Martin Eden]

49. With the question you asked and answered, you are ignoring Gaza and the West Bank

Are they living peacefully mixed among the Jewish population?

Look at what's been happenig in the West Bank. For decades Israel has increased it's settlements, often pushing Palestinians off their land. This activity and violence have increased since Oct 7.

The ostensible Palestinian state is sliced & diced by settlements and the roads connecting them, rendering a two state solution impossible.

I have no doubt the Palestinians within Israel proper are capable of living peacefully within an Israel that encompasses all the land.

Do you really think that model fits the West Bank and Gaza? When or if Gaza is rebuilt, will the Palestinian survivors who endured brutal hardship and saw family members blown to bits live peacefully side-by-side with their Jewish neighbors?

To believe that is to ignore more than a half century of history leading up to this point.

As I said before, Hamas is a bigger obstacle to that peaceful ideal than are Jewish Israelis. The notion that Hamas can be wiped out by bombing Gaza to rubble is delusional. Bombs cannot so easily destroy an idea, nor turn for the better the hearts and minds of Palestinians in Gaza who've seen their homes and businesses destroyed and so many of their brethren slaughtered.

Netanyahu knows this, and he is not alone in the Israeli government. Likud in partnership with other rightwing parties keeps winning elections. Rhetoric from some of the ministers is atrciously extreme. Hamas is not the only obstacle to peaceful coexistence.

I would bet my life savings that a two state solution is not going to happen. Far too many Israelis would have to be forced from the communities they've established in the West Bank, some of them multigenerational

Israeli hardliners are playing the long game within the sweep of history. They have a Palestinian problem they need to go away to attain the goal of a safe and secure nation state homeland for the Jewish people.

40,000+ dead Palestinians in Gaza is not a regrettable but unavoidable result of this horrible conflict. It is a deliberate strategy which Oct 7 made possible with a measure of plausible deniability.

[Beastly Boy]

55. The question was yours. My response was to bring your attention to the state where the answer to your question

is found.

References to Gaza and the West Bank do not make my reply any less accurate or valid.

My answer also indicates how living in peace side by side is possible and where it has been achieved. It certainly doesn't point to Gaza and the West Bank, which is a clear sign that the issue of living in peace may not lie in ethnic distinctions but rather in the cultural differences between Israel and the occupied territories, and charges of genocide are made up precisely for the purpose of obfuscating those cultural differences.

[Martin Eden]

75. Are "cultural differences" the distinction between Israeli Palestinians and those in the West Bank and Gaza?

Certainly not the baseline of Arab Muslims living in Palestine before it became Israel.

Subcultures do of course form as mostly homogeneous groups are separated and live in radically different circumstances. The point is that that Palestinians in Gaza and a significant percent in the West Bank will not be trusted by the Israeli government to blend in peacefully within Israeli society, and for good reason.

Generations of bloody conflict between two peoples who want the same land for themselves have rendered the relationship intractable. It is too easy for a few bad actors on either side to derail progress towards peace.

Israel was established to be the Jewish State, the nature of which excludes the acceptance of any potential for Jews to become a minority in their homeland. It was not created to be a melting pot.

I'm old enough to remember the wars of 1967 and 1973. Desire for the land between the river and the sea still burns in too many hearts.

I have not applied the term "genocide" for this conflict, because it does not compare to what inflicted upon the Jewish people during the Holocaust. I don't doubt some bad actors use that term to inflame divisions, but I do not apply such ill intent to all who use it. Millions of people around the world are utterly appalled at the slaughter and humanitarian disaster in Gaza.

The only side I'm rooting for is peace, security, and humanity for all involved.

Sadly, I do not expect peace and reconciliation happening in the foreseeable future.

[Beastly Boy]

106. Yes, these are the cultural differences I am referring to.

And the baseline of Palestinian Arabs in the Mandatory Palestine lost its cultural cohesion way before 1967.

It started right after the Armistice of 1949. The Palestinian Arabs in Israel became Israelis, the West Bank Palestinians became Jordanians and the Gazan Palestinians became Egyptians. Their respective identities became distinct and developed in different directions. All three groups formally became enemies of each other. The pan-Palestinian allegiances remain to this day, but people living in different countries inevitably become different, especially with generational changes.

In this respect, Israel is more of a melting pot than you give it credit for. In the 1950s, a million Jews were expelled from Muslim countries from Iraq to Morocco. They had nowhere to go but Israel.They were all culturally less Israeli than the Israeli Palestinians. The same goes for Jewish exiles from the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe and Iran later on. While Israel is still intended to be ethnically homogeneous, it is not. Israel's incredible cultural diversity is completely lost on the detractors who paint Israel as a homogeneous Zionist entity.
They rely on ignorance to keep them going.

[Eko]

86. They do not have equal rights.

PCIs are among Israel’s most marginalized minorities. Israel does not have a constitution that guarantees equality for all before the law. Instead, important privileges and rights are conferred based on nationality. For example, an Israeli law passed in 2018 declared that only Jewish people have a right to self-determination and that Arabic is not an official language, despite its indigeneity. Even discussing the Palestinian history of displacement and dispossession in public entities, including schools, risks the loss of state funding under legislation popularly known as the Nakba law.

PCIs also hold different identification documents than their Jewish counterparts. The IDs are labeled with race and religion—markers that restrict where Arabs can reside. Though most PCIs are allowed to vote (since they hold Israeli passports, which differentiates them from East Jerusalemites, who do not), they face organized suppression and intimidation efforts. In elections conducted in 2019, authorities mounted cameras in polling stations where PCIs vote, and those living in the Naqab (Negev) had to travel 50 kilometers (31 miles) to the closest polling station. It wasn’t until 2021 that a Palestinian political party was able to join an Israeli governing coalition for the first time. The experience was short-lived, however, and it was succeeded by the most extreme, right-wing government in Israel’s history.

As far a living peacefully,

As vitriol from Israeli media stations and politicians against PCIs has increased, so have incidents of violence and racism. For example, on October 28, a mob surrounded a dormitory for Palestinian students at Netanya College and chanted “death to Arabs.” Though the police and some PCI community leaders prevented the mob from entering the building, the students were forced to return to their villages because their safety could not be ensured. PCIs have also shown up to work to see racist, offensive graffiti targeting them and have been physically threatened by patrons. Some PCIs employed in Jewish or mixed localities have stopped working because of this.

https://carnegieendowment.org/posts/2024/02/the-many-civil-and-human-rights-challenges-facing-israels-palestinian-citizens?lang=en


The Israeli government directly controls 93% of the land in Israel and systematically discriminates against Palestinian citizens of Israel in its allocation through official agencies like the Israel Land Authority and quasi-governmental Jewish National Fund. Combined with the discriminatory Admissions Committee Law, approximately 80% of state lands are off-limits to Palestinian citizens of Israel, who face significant legal obstacles in gaining access to this land for residential, agricultural, or commercial development.
In 2011, the Knesset passed the "Admissions Committees Law,” which allows more than 300 small majority-Jewish towns to exclude applicants for residency who don’t meet vague "social suitability" standards. As noted by Human Rights Watch in a statement entitled Israel: New Laws Marginalize Palestinian Arab Citizens:

“The measure anchors in law a practice that has been the basis for unjustly rejecting applications by Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel as well as members of socially marginalized groups such as Jews of non-European ancestry and single-parent families… Parliamentary statements indicate that the law's sponsors intended it to allow majority-Jewish communities to maintain their current demographic makeup by excluding Palestinian Arab citizens, an act of discrimination on the basis of their race, ethnicity, and national origin.”

https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-palestinian-citizens-of-israel

“There are all these laws that either directly or indirectly discriminate against Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship, including laws that prevent me and others from moving into certain towns,” she said, referring to an Israeli law that allows villages and towns in certain regions to operate “admission committees.” They have the power to bar people from moving in if they are deemed to be “not suitable” to the community’s “social-cultural fabric.”

The law was expanded this year and now applies to settlements of 700 households, up from 400 previously. Adalah, an NGO that focuses on the rights of the Arab minority in Israel, said the expanded version of the law covers 41% of all localities and 80% of the state’s territory.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

I can keep going.

[H2O Man]

97. I think that

was when it began to be used in the US at that time. However, variations in non-English speaking lands go back at least to 1860 when Russian General Yevdaimov "removed" Circassian Muslims ("ochishchenie " ) In the early 1900s, other variations of the term were used in several European nations. Note: I am making no comment regarding if or when it is used correctly or incorrectly. It is misused almost as much as "treason. "

[Jirel]

9. Grow up. It's genocide.

“Aw, it’s just genocide-lite…” “Aw, but it’s not genocide because not as many innocent Palestinian people are being slaughtered right now as several months ago…” “Aw, it’s not genocide because only a fraction of the population has been murdered so far…”

This sounds exactly like every apologist for every genocide in history, and it’s disgusting. Read the legal definition of genocide. What fits, fits.

The legal term “genocide” refers to certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Genocide is an international crime, according to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948). The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories:
- Killing members of the group
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide

By all means, read about the report from Boston Law School about how yes, this is genocide and here is how the case is laid out under international human rights law.
https://www.bu.edu/articles/2024/is-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza/

You trying to whitewash genocide as an electoral argument is disgusting. Here’s the dealio - the only true thing you have said in all that hot mess, is that it is foolish to not vote Harris/Walz because a person supports Palestine. Why? Because there are only two candidates that might be elected POTUS, and Dump will exponentially increase the level of destruction to Palestine and Palestinians, as he will encourage greater and more shocking acts of genocide. The only hope of *any* restraint on Israel comes with Harris. People can rail at that all they want, but in the end their choice comes down to how many people will be destroyed in genocide. It boggles my mind that people will not at least try to save what lives they can, versus casting a protest vote or staying home to make a point that contributes to an even greater death toll.

[Beastly Boy]

39. It helps if you read and pay attention to what you read before you post it.

The legal term “genocide” refers to certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

What do you think shows intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group (that would be the Palestinian Arabs) in Israel's case?

[Nimble_Idea]

10. love seeing these two "sides" of the issues. there can only be two right?

call me when it's over

[moniss]

12. Your post is ignoring the fact that

Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2024, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

genocide is not solely defined by number of dead over a particular period of time as a percentage of the population. The ICJ has found the conduct to at least merit charges for war crimes against both Hamas leaders and Israeli leaders. Also I don't think it furthers anything to label concerned people as "pro Palestinian Leftists" because as surprising as it may be to many people around the world you can be for fair treatment of Palestinians and Israelis at the same time. The implication the label makes is that if somebody is "pro" this then you are indifferent or, at worse, "anti" the other.

There are other factors that go into a definition of genocide. Framing things as only being defined on one of the aspects of conflict and death is inappropriate for analysis of whether the definition of genocide applies. While some may be using this to support their refusal to support Harris/Walz they may or may not be doing so based upon a complete examination of all the criteria. Anybody applying the label or decrying the label based on an incomplete examination that fails to apply all of the criteria is wrong regardless of who they support or why. I think that people are immensely ignorant if they think that any normal VP situation could have affected the actions in Gaza in any major way one way or the other. The only VP to have that kind of power was Cheney who everyone knows was the real power in control.

I think people need to support the Harris/Walz ticket if they care about Gaza because the alternative administration will give free reign for slaughter/displacement far beyond what has taken place so far. Regardless of whether it carries this or that label.

EDIT: I inadvertently said ICJ when I meant ICC. ICJ is for disputes between countries. ICC is for crimes of individuals.

[Beastly Boy]

40. The ICJ has NOT found Israel's conduct to at least merit charges for war crimes.

They found Israel's conduct sufficient to consider debating these charges by the Court.

All it means is that South Africa's petition was not thrown out in the trash bin.

[moniss]

114. Oh my deepest apologies I confused the ICJ rulings with the ICC rulings

and I would note this for reference: "On 20 May 2024, Khan announced that he would file applications for arrest warrants against Hamas leaders Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh and Israeli leaders Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant.[58][2][59] The request for a warrant against Haniyeh was withdrawn following his assassination on 31 July 2024.[60] The prosecutor stated that he was trying to confirm the death of Deif, in which case the warrant request would be withdrawn.[61]

After the announcement, an investigation found that Israel had for nearly ten years "deployed its intelligence agencies to surveil, hack, pressure, smear and allegedly threaten senior ICC staff in an effort to derail the court's inquiries." The ICC stated that it knew of "proactive intelligence-gathering activities being undertaken by a number of national agencies hostile towards the court".

Oh most certainly the behavior of every upstanding, law abiding country.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_investigation_in_Palestine

[Beastly Boy]

117. There is no ICC ruling either, your note for reference notwithstanding.

Last edited Mon Sep 30, 2024, 06:48 AM - Edit history (1)

An ICC prosecutor doesn't issue rulings. He requests rulings from a panel of ICC judges, and that ruling will establish whether there is reason to believe his request is founded.

For my part, and with my sincerest apologies, I would note the following: your opinions and judgements, as entitled to them as you are, have no relevance whatsoever to any decision making or deliberations conducted by ICC, in the past or in the future.

As for the OP, it focused on just one talking point particularly favored by the pro-Palestinian activists: the numbers. While I appreciate your contribution to the OP by noting that it lacks legal merits, this doesn't detract from the OP exposing the fundamental flaw of this talking point on its own factual merits.

[moniss]

120. You are correct about the ICC Court itself not having made a determination versus

the prosecutor. Mea Culpa for confusing the step we're at in the process. In all fairness nothing any of us say here, have opinions about or make judgements upon is going to have any effect or relevance to either the ICC, the ICJ, or any parties to any of the conflict. As to the OP and my critique of applying the label it is simply to point out that it is improper in any type of situation where a "label or description" of an action has several criteria to only choose one criteria to either support or negate the determination of whether the label is correct. A good professor will beat that practice out of you in college in a heartbeat. A crappy professor will entertain incomplete analysis. While I am a long way from my college days I remember having work ripped up in my face and given back to me for having failed to completely address all the criteria of a given matter.

[Beastly Boy]

121. It's a good thing we are not in college full of good professors.

Otherwise we would all be beaten to a pulp.

The argument in the OP doesn't pretend to be complete. It addresses just one of the most common criteria (a label, if you will) being promoted by the pro-Palestinian activists on a stand-alone basis. And it disproves, with your helpful assistance, this line of argumentation.

While I would welcome a good professor to beat this practice out of purveyors of performative outrage, I am content to see them debunked on their own terms.

[doc03]

19. Only 41000, life doesn't have much value, I guess. That is only 2% of the population.

In the USA 2% of the population would only be 6,600,000 people.

[DSandra]

27. Nader let Bush become president, and Bush lied to get us into war with Iraq...

And it ended up in a million Iraqis dead. Lots of people die when Republicans become president. Using the Israel war to justify allowing Trump to become president will just cause more death.

[Beastly Boy]

41. Not to Hamas it doesn't!

Hamas is knowingly and consistently putting the lives of Gazan civilians in danger with the intent to harm them, which Hamas leaders openly and repeatedly expressed.

The intent to harm is on them and them alone.

[doc03]

50. So it is the fault of Gazan civilians for getting in the way. Bibi could nuke Gaza and kill

2 million people but it would be Ok they shouldn't have put themselves in harm's way. People think
it would better if Trump was president, I guess.

[Beastly Boy]

81. No, silly! It's the fault of Hamas!

Didn't I make it clear?

And it is not the civilians getting in the way, it's Hamas intentionally putting them in harm's way!

[werdna]

20. While I am not a "pro Palestinian leftist", you might want to remove your post.

The legal term “genocide” refers to certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part*, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Genocide is an international crime, according to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948). The acts that constitute genocide fall into five categories:

Killing members of the group

]Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Although the term “genocide” is often used, its commission is rare when compared to other serious crimes that are not defined by an intent to destroy a targeted group, such as crimes against humanity and war crimes.

https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide

* my emphasis

[Beastly Boy]

43. You may want to remove your post.

While you may not be a a "pro Palestinian leftist", you are promoting the same red herring fallacy that is par for the course with the pro-Palestinian leftists.

Putting the emphasis on the inarguable portions of the legal definition of genocide and skirting the issue of intent altogether, is a familiar and overused move.

By failing to address intent, which by the most basic examination will point the finger at Hamas (they were never shy to reiterate their intent to harm as many civilians as they can in the course of their campaign against Israel), they completely disregard the meaning of the ICC's definition of genocide.

The intent was Hamas' all along. Unsurprisingly, not a single charge of genocide being leveled against them.

[werdna]

79. Two points.

1) Just in case you might not have noticed, the link I posted, https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide, goes to the United States Memorial Holocaust Museum. It is their definition you are arguing against. So why not address your concerns to them?
2) Since it was posted " Yes, the 41,000 people killed is a tragedy. . . And that is not genocide, genocide would have a far higher death toll." I emphasized "in part" simply to draw your attention to that fact. Evidently, the USMHM does not feel the Number of deaths is the qualifier for defining a genocide, rather the intent of the nation inflicting the deaths, as is explicit in their definition. Again, take up your argument with them.

I choose not to take a side in a conflict that has existed practically since the Jewish faith was founded by Abraham, as I am neither Jewish nor Palestinian. I only replied to the original post to provide a generally accepted definition for genocide to point out that their statement that genocide is dependent on the number of those killed is erroneous.That is all. Sorry your feathers got rankled.

[Beastly Boy]

94. Both points noted, and I am not arguing agains either.

But why call for removal of the post that counter-argues the fallacy of accusing Israel of genocide on the basis of numbers?

After all, the numbers, which, as you noted, do not play into the definition of genocide but were nevertheless the core of the frequently stated Hamas' strategy in their war with Israel, have routinely been cited as the basis for accusations by the pro-Palestinian activists.

My objection to your post was the bolded emphasis on the "in part" of the definition. I objected to this emphasis, noting that it diverts attention from the fundamental role of intent in the definition of the crime - another fallacy frequently used by the pro-Palestinian activists.

This was in no way an argument against the Holocaust Museum definition. On the contrary, I was affirming it.

[Deep State Witch]

22. It's Definitely Ethnic Cleansing

That was a term from the Balkans wars in the 1990's to describe one nationality killing another to take their land. Unfortunately, this is a new term for what has been practiced since the beginning of history. Especially in areas like the Levant and the Balkans.

[Beastly Boy]

45. This might make some sense if there was evidence of land taken by Israel as a resultt of

"nationally killing" the Palestinians.

To make your point remotely plausible, would you care to describe the extent of the land taken, or intended to be taken, as a result of the "definitely ethnic cleansing"?

[Deep State Witch]

92. The West Bank

It's pretty well-known that the Israelis claim that land for themselves. The want the Palestinians out, so they can move more settlers in.

[EX500rider]

95. West Bank & Gaza are different places

[Beastly Boy]

109. You are wrong.

It is the religious fanatics in Israel who claim that land for themselves. Most Israelis don't.

But your post tells me a lot about where you get the information on the status of the West Bank.

[Arthur_Frain]

24. Whatever lets you sleep at night I guess.

I don’t understand how anyone thinks either side has any legitimacy anymore. It should be pretty obvious why bibi is doing what he’s doing a month before US elections. It is obvious who he’d prefer in the white house.

[Beastly Boy]

48. Doesn't sound like genocide, does it?

[Rob H.]

25. "only 40,000"

JFC

[DSandra]

29. That's nothing compared to the death toll of a Republican when they become president

Ronald Reagan led to almost 200,000 Americans dying because of his refusal to do anything about AIDS for most of his term.

Nixon pretended to want peace with North Vietnam, but instead escalated the war, leading to more than 20,000 additional American soldiers dead. Nixon started the war on drugs as a way to attack blacks and hippies. It has led to the largest mass incarceration rate in the world, millions of harmed and ruined lives, and a very high overdose rate due to the illicit drug trade (overdose deaths reached 100,000 a year in the pandemic years alone.)

Bush led to a million Iraqis dead.

Trump's dismissal of the severity of COVID and refusal to support mandatory masks has no doubt led to a large chunk if not the majority of COVID deaths in the United States (hundreds of thousands of people.)

If you care so much about lives, then allowing a Republican to become president just because you're angry at Biden not doing enough about Palestinian lives will just lead to more deaths. A lot of leftists seem to refuse to vote for Kamala and it's only going to lead to a lot more deaths.

[Ping Tung]

28. "No cause justifies the deaths of innocent people." - Albert Camus

Mankind has been murdering their own species since the beginning. and continues to do so while boasting that we are the very apex of evolution.

[Easterncedar]

58. Yes, that.

“Only 40,000” is an outrageous and cruel and callous thing to say.

[Prairie Gates]

30. "Yes, the 41,000 people killed is a tragedy..."

The rest of the post makes this sound, well, insincere.

Your post has big "abyss gazing back" vibes.

[DSandra]

31. It is being used as an excuse to justify refusing to back Democrats

And ignores the fact that a Republican in the presidency, as evidenced with the last four Republican Administrations, leads to massive amounts of dead people and ruined lives. Trump's anti masking attitudes has undoubtedly led to hundreds of thousands of dead people from COVID, including undoubtedly a lot of innocent ones who were infected by someone who refused to mask.

I am transgender, why should me and my community pay for America's backing of Israel and war with Hamas? If Trump becomes president, not even blue states will be safe from the reaches of MAGA.

[BannonsLiver]

34. Excellent post

It apparently touched the right nerves.

[PufPuf23]

47. The first step to Peace is honesty and not one-sided propaganda. nt

[BrianTheEVGuy]

52. Anti-Semitic far lefties don't care about "genocide"

Otherwise they’d be rioting for Tigray, Kurds in Turkey and Syria, Yazidi in Iraq and Syria, the Rohingya peoples, the Uighurs, the South Sudanese and many other people who are actual victims of actual genocide.

The “Palestinian cause” in the west is almost always a fig leaf for antisemitism. There’s a reason that the rioters attack Jewish neighborhoods, institutions and students in the west. It’s not because of “Palestine.” “Palestine” is just a convenient excuse.

[DSandra]

61. Not to mention being in groups with ties with Hamas

https://abc7chicago.com/hamas-david-boim-terrorism-american-muslims-for-palestine/14001029/

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Letter-to-National-SJP-5.29.24.pdf

https://isgap.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/SJP_Report.pdf

[BrianTheEVGuy]

62. Ah yes

Hamas, the group whose founding charter calls for the worldwide extermination of all Jews. A fantastic ally for an “anti-genocide campaign,” eh?

[DSandra]

65. LOL, the irony

Anti-genocide protesters being manipulated indirectly by pro-genocide terrorists.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

66. But but but

“They’re freedom fighters according to my professor who is on the take from Qatar! If I support them, the hottie I’ve been trying to date for months will be impressed and then I’ll have won! Plus I get virtue points!”

[DSandra]

67. Ah yes, Qatar funneling money to American Universities

"While China is the proverbial dragon in American colleges, Middle Eastern monarchies stand alongside Beijing as authoritarian states asserting their influence in higher education. The NAS noted in a 2022 report that Qatar alone donated $4.7 billion to U.S. colleges since 2001. Northwestern University received over $600 million in Qatari funds since 2007, connected to its journalism program in the Gulf. Qatar’s spending on an American journalism program is noteworthy given that the monarchy ranked 119 out of 180 for press freedom in 2022. In Qatar, as in other totalitarian states, journalists can be jailed for a tweet. As the largest Gulf monarchy, Saudi Arabia funneled $650 million to American universities between 2012 and 2018. Like China, the Saudis use American universities to project soft power, obfuscate human rights abuses, and train upcoming professionals."

https://thehill.com/opinion/education/3931995-authoritarian-states-dwarf-americas-allies-in-influencing-us-colleges-and-universities/

[BrianTheEVGuy]

105. And recruit unwitting pawns

Considering the sorry state of much of our K-12 system, young people are not being equipped with the critical thinking skills needed to discern their own perspective and their minds can thus represent fertile soil for wealthy authoritarian regimes.

[canuckledragger]

111. And some of Bibi's pawn don't understand that they're Bibi's pawns.

and are the fertile soil for wealthy authoritarian regimes that you describe.

[canuckledragger]

100. ah yes, the old 'anti-semitism' deflection when people point out Bibi's genocide against the Palestinians.

it's a tired old lie and doesn't hold much weight against the murders of over 100,000 innocent civilians.

[Susan Calvin]

54. I for one am not using it as an excuse not to vote for Kamala.

That would be very stupid on my part. But I still think that's what it is, and I still loathe Netanyahu.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

64. It's ethnic cleansing.

[canuckledragger]

69. Oh, it most definitely IS genocide.

The goal is to kill or displace all of the Palestinians and steal their land, like what's been done for decades.

[marybourg]

73. I suggest that with a slogan such as "From the river to the sea", it is the Palestinians

who are lusting after Israel’s land, not the reverse.

[canuckledragger]

74. And yet it's the Palestinian civilians that are the ones getting slaughtered by the 10's of 1000's

in order to keep that war criminal Bibi out of jail.

[marybourg]

77. I think it may have been pointed out once or twice

that if a state invades another state, killing, raping, maiming, stealing and degrading its citizens, the state invaded is expected by its citizens and the world to come as close as possible to ensuring that the aggressor state is rendered unable to repeat the aggression in the near future. The existence of civilians, in fact the use of civilians as human shields, does not negate this obligation of a state to its citizens.

[canuckledragger]

78. So slaughtering innocent civilians is OK to you...or only if they're Palestinians?

[marybourg]

80. The other option being?

[canuckledragger]

83. That's all I need to know about you.

[marybourg]

89. O, it's about ME? I had no idea.

The rise and fall of an argument that can’t be supported with facts. Attack the anonymous other.

[canuckledragger]

110. There's plenty of factual evidence of Bibi's genocide

Some just choose to ignore that in favour of pushing propaganda.

And disputing an inaccurate statement isn't an 'attack'.

Attacking the anonymous 'other' is exactly what Bibi is doing.

[Cha]

70. I know it's Not "genocide".. Mahalo for your OP.

Those using "genocide" not to vote for VP Harris and Gov Tim Walz don't know wth "genocide" is Or care if they're helping to get TSF, Putin, and Netanyahu in charge.

[DSandra]

103. Yes. Just like they did to help Trump get in office in 2016.

I remember Jimmy Dore, who was a hero of many of the far left, who promoted the Seth Rich conspiracy theory and even said that Trump was better for progressives than Hillary. Who paid the price? Lots of women and girls because of the repeal of Roe vs Wade.

[Cha]

108. Exactly' TY.. Those that Pushed Jill Stein's Lies are Complicit

and Have Blood on their Hands from 2016, and Responsible for Roe V Wade being Overturned! Also Fascism in our WH and Spreading across America.. and So Many deaths from Covid.

And they take no fucking responsibility like Susan Sarandon.

Jimmy Dore is a RF POS. Must be Putin fans

They're Despicable and a Scourge on America. So of course Stein is at it Again.

[ecstatic]

71. Yikes! 41,000 is equivalent to 6,826,500 Americans killed.

based on 2M estimated population for Gaza and 333M estimated population for the US.

Have we ever had a situation with that many Americans killed by another country?

[roamer65]

76. I think $200 bbl oil would be a good wake-up call to the world, TBH.

If they keep it up over there in the ME (Israel and Iran), that is exactly what we will get and it will make the Great Recession look like a picnic in the park.

EOM.

[Redleg]

87. Whew, that's a relief!

I was waiting for a person with moral standing to explain this.

[al bupp]

91. I wonder if you'd see it that way...

If the shoe was on the other foot.

[iemanja]

93. Only 40,000?

You tell yourself that's a low number? That's how you justify it?

I saw people here use the term genocide to talk about Republican policy toward migrant workers, with absolutely no pushback, but when it comes to Muslims, no amount of death is sufficient to satisfy. The war has since expanded into Lebanon and to Yemen, and still those deaths are not only justified but applauded. How many more countries/homelands must be wiped off the map for Israel to feel safe? How many more tens of thousands must die, and how long will you keep saying "only"? And what has that slaughter of 41,000 Palestinians achieved? It hasn't eradicated Hamas, but it has killed--and targeted--children. But that's okay because they are only Palestinian children, and "everything [Israel does] is legitimate."

No one here is refusing to vote for Kamala, and you know it. There are, however, people here who care about those 41,000 lives you have just dismissed as minor.

Don't tell me children have not been targeted without first watching this:
https://www.cbs.com/shows/video/G5gIg_iwm8ZuPSjg9uqYjBizZ_NsgDdN/#:~:text=Children%20of%20Gaza.%20Help.%2010min.%20The

The quote above comes from an Israeli minister, reported in this article, among many.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-idf-palestinian-prisoner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/

[Buttoneer]

101. It may not be genocide, but Israel is committing war crimes.

[betsuni]

102. Population of Palestinians has gone up, no genocide. The word is incorrectly redefined for propaganda, encourage disgust

and hate.

[Mad_Machine76]

104. Semantics about genocide aside, I don't know about you

but that is a LOT of people, presumably, who did not attack Israel before, on, or after 10/07. I do not believe, however, that people should place the blame on Biden/Harris.

[LudwigPastorius]

112. "Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette", eh?

[Mysterian]

122. Hamas started a war and now people are getting killed in the war

that Hamas started. Israel needs to take care to avoid collateral damage as much as possible, but Israel can and will defend itself in a war against barbarians who murder civilians intentionally.

[DBoon]

126. Orwell: "political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible"

Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenseless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called PACIFICATION. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called TRANSFER OF POPULATION or RECTIFICATION OF FRONTIERS

Politics and the English Language - George Orwell

as true now as in the 1940s. Saying the death of 40,000 civilians is not genocide does not make it any less of a tragedy, though making that argument does provide emotional distance from the scale of the tragedy and allows the perpetrators to feel they are actually not doing something bad.