Breaking a Child's Will The Evangelical family's twisted obsession with corporal punishment.

[demmiblue]

In some hands, a wooden spoon is an innocuous object, a kitchen tool for stirring and scooping. In others, it is an instrument of pain that lingers in the memory far longer than any taste could linger on the tongue. If you strike a child enough times and with enough force with a wooden spoon, it will shatter.

In October 2021, I posted a tweet asking people who had had abusive Evangelical childhoods to reach out to me for a research project that would form part of my new book, Wild Faith. Within 72 hours, 150 people reached out to me, sharing their stories on email and DM. The respondents’ ages ranged from 22 to 65; many were my age, in their early 30s. They were grateful that someone wanted to talk about what had happened to them.

I wound up designing a 12-question survey: What was your experience of corporal punishment like? What parenting books or doctrines do you recall your parents using? Do you feel childhood corporal punishment has affected you as an adult? The responses were intense and contained so much candid anguish it felt as though they would etch holes in my computer screen. I have included many in this story, with the names of my respondents changed to protect their identities.

Within many Evangelical homes, violent abuse of children is cast as a direct act of service to God, and eschewing it a grave, even mortal sin that puts children in peril of losing their eternal souls. In tens of millions of American homes, there presides a structure in which the father dominates over his wife and children with unquestioned brutality, and the wife’s limited sphere of authority over the children is used to inflict further violence.

https://www.thecut.com/article/the-evangelical-obsession-with-corporal-punishment.html

[synni]

1. Please post a non-paywall link

Thanks!

[Nevilledog]

3. Here

https://archive.li/S4m1B

[Ping Tung]

48. Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man. Thomas Paine

[marble falls]

2. I guess I was lucky, my non-believer dad used belts, fists and feet. Child abusers are from all niches in society.

[OldBaldy1701E]

4. Yep. Mine was a belt man.

Or a switch. Or a tree limb. Or a pig swatter. Whatever he could get.

He started out a deacon of the church. By the time I was in my early teens, he was a drunk who never went to church and stayed as inebriated as possible. My parents divorced and the drunk had two more kids with another female who also divorced him within six years. I always said that the younger two got the better deal. Their dad was passed out most of the time. Mine used to beat the shit out of me for knocking over a napkin holder (that had one napkin in it).

[marble falls]

7. Except for the church stuff, we had the same dad. I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone hurting children ...

... in any way. There is absolutely no reason for abuse.

I get triggered by it and abuse of animals. I can't work around it, while I do what I can support efforts to end it.

[OldBaldy1701E]

11. I worked at a school for almost a decade.

I try not to think about the times I almost stepped into someone over their behavior towards their kids. I remember one time a mother was beating the dust off of her 8 year old boy because she had just purchased a new car and did not want him to get dust on the seats... which were still completely wrapped in plastic. And, I don't mean brushing him hard. She was literally beating him while claiming that she was trying to remove dust.

It took three people to steer me away from that scene. I was going to go off on that little... redacted.

[marble falls]

15. When I see it going on in public, I do get cold inside and start walking into it. I can't handle hurt children ...

... and animals. At the same time adults with injuries don't make me wince, gunshot wounds and death doesn't shake me, I can give stitches (even to myself), I watched both of my daughters' caesarean births from within 5 feet distance. I'd be great in any situation, but a failure in a children's hospital or a recovery operation with children.

[AloeVera]

37. You are protecting your little self, the poor beaten child.

It triggers you and in spite of it, you are brave and a hero.

I am triggered too. Always with children and animals. I think it's because they are so helpless and dependent and the betrayal of trust. I can actually feel what I imagine they are feeling. I can't bear to hear even a snippet of an animal or child cruelty story. The plight of children in war now has taken a huge toll on me.

Sometimes I wish I were different, but we are what our childhoods made us. Not that we can't overcome our challenges, but the over-empathy for helpless victims is an exquisite quirk that is both a blessing and a burden.

[marble falls]

43. A shrink once told me I was feeling sorry for myself and that ended therapy for me with him. I went to another ...

... and worked through well enough that I can drive without freaking when i see dead animals. It was getting bad and there was one time when I felt like I was going to lose control of the car on I-10 going into Houston.

He was Chinese and I'd like to think now that I missed the nuance of his wording using English.

But you're the first person that I have ever heard that explains it exactly how it feels for me.

[AloeVera]

55. That shrink was an emotionally underdeveloped asshole.

He was obviously a total mismatch for you.

Yeah, animals on the highway... I've learned to not look. Which brings guilt and shame because MAYBE THEY'RE STILL ALIVE! But it would be so bad if I saw them suffering.

Two years ago my beloved dog Max was run over by a car. He loved to escape once in a while and terrorize the neighbourhood. Or so he thought lol. I was searching for him for hours and then I swear I heard him bark. It was coming from the highway and I KNEW. To my eternal shame I didn't run as I should have. I half-ran and half-freaked. By the time I got there he was dead. Every day I ask his forgiveness. I like to think he understands. Maybe he expired after hearing my voice, knowing I was coming for him.

But it broke me.

This is therapy for me, as I shed another tear. Glad to know my words connected with you. We need to tell our stories to people who've been there and know.

[cab67]

59. I'll never forget a a radio program back in the 1990's

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2024, 06:24 PM - Edit history (2)

I would sometimes listen to evangelical stations while working on my dissertation if I thought creationism would come up.

I listened briefly - very briefly - to a "debate" on the John Ankerberg show between one of his end-times buddies and a woman who does pediatric hospice. The subject was near-death experiences.

This woman did something I could never do. And yet the other person kept mansplaining to her that her primary job was to convert the dying child to evangelical Christianity, and that any calming talk based on near-death experiences was anti-Biblical.

He actually said something like, "You've got a very hard job - you have to win their souls." As if working with terminally ill children at the ends of their lives isn't otherwise rough.

I couldn't listen for long. It was flat-out nauseating.

I'm willing to bet that this dude was perfectly happy to slap his kids around, and probably his wife as well, but would back off in a hurry if confronted with someone who could take him on.

[marble falls]

70. Just shocked beyond words. "Preach the Gospel daily. If necessary, use words."

[Xavier Breath]

78. Your mentioning the switch brought back a childhood memory.

It was customary in the warm months for the family to gather at my great-grandparents' house on Sunday evenings. The adults would hang out on the porch while me and my cousins played in the yard and around the house. If anyone mis-behaved, they were summoned to the porch and told to select a switch from the large bush in the front yard to be used to whip them. The parent and offending child would then disappear into the house for "justice" to be administered. And you did not select a small switch either, unless you wanted to get it even worse.

In the intervening years I've heard and read about others who discussed a similar punishment in their families. Fortunately, it only happened to me once or twice, but five decades later and the memory still hasn't left me.

[OldBaldy1701E]

82. My father sliced my leg open with one when I was four.

My mother was not exactly pleased about it. Since I don't recall anything else happening from it, I must assume that they pulled a fast one with the doctor the next time he saw me and asked about the long cut on my leg.

[paleotn]

63. Granted but they coalesce among evilgelicals.

[marble falls]

68. It happens in every niche of society. Religion just adds a different twist to it, but it all damnable. My point is ...

... Religion adds its own little twist to the problem, just as age, culture, region etc does. No one abuser gains any virtue by being a member of any religion, culture, etc.

It's an across society problem.

[hatrack]

91. I wouldn't call "making the abuser holy" a LITTLE twist . . .

. . . because that's what fucking religion does. But yeah, your point is right on target.

[UpInArms]

95. My father's favorites were a bullwhip

and a colt 45

[Solly Mack]

5. K&R

[barbtries]

6. I hope eventually there will be a discussion about the First Amendment

and whether churches who commit human rights violations and crimes against humanity are within their rights. Scientology is another destructive cult that commits heinous crimes against persons and skates because "first amendment." I consider it an abuse of the right.

People should not be made to suffer like this. I doubt the founders intended that when they made it the very first amendment to the Constitution.

[marble falls]

10. It is astounding the number of children murdered through physical abuse in cult "Christian" groups.

[wnylib]

44. It can never be acceptable for any organization or individual

to violate human rights.

[CrispyQ]

8. Dobson. I'm not surprised to see that fucker mentioned.

Man, there are some sick fucks out there.

[StarryNite]

9. Corporal punishment used to be common in public schools.

I was going to a public grade school during the 50s and 60s. It was common for kids who "misbehaved" to be given swats by the teachers. The wooden paddles were big, much much larger than a wooden spoon. Some of them had holes drilled in them to make them leave welts. Some of them were made in wood shop by students who presented them to their teachers. So hard to believe that corporal punishment coming from teachers was common and accepted.

[Bayard]

13. I remember watching this in grade school

Kids that would probably be diagnosed with ADD now, waled on by paddles that looked like boat oars. Certainly made an impression on the little ones.

At home, my Mom favored a fly swatter or a fly-back paddle for me. She used one of my Dad's belts on my older sister.

[HeartsCanHope]

58. The fly swatter was it for me, too.

Last edited Fri Oct 4, 2024, 05:11 PM - Edit history (1)

What used to gross me out was wondering if she had washed it after swatting the flies! She also used hard rubber-soled slippers. Both the fly swatter and the slippers really stung and left red marks. I also always got it twice for every infraction. From mom and from my dad, every. single. time. My husband and I just had my son go to time out. I tried to get my sisters to do that as correction for their kids, but that nasty Dobson was always touted as the ultimate authority on raising kids. "Spare the rod and spoil the child." Terrible!

Edited to add that I never really got in trouble at school. Did see kids paddled. That scared me. I thought it was horrible that an adult would do that to a child!

[Bev54]

20. Yep, we had the strap which was a thick leather

Had to hold out our hands to be hit by it. I was sent to the office, along with most of the kids in the class ( a whole other story) but the principal just gave us all a lecture instead so that was my closest brush with it. Teachers normally did not give corporal punishment, it was up to the principal and vice principal. My Mom spanked on occasion but nothing severe. My Dad used his fists mostly on my Mom and once I remember on my older brother but not me or my sister.

[OMGWTF]

21. There was a big wooden paddle in the window of the principal's office of the Catholic school I attended in the 1960s.

We students called it "The Board of Education." I never got hit with it, but I was beaten and humiliated regularly at home by my uber-religious narcissist mother. Both of my parents were cruel and punitive. My dad even broke my nose punching me in the face during an argument. Fuck them both. I worked extra hard to graduate from high school early so I could GTFO of that hell hole of a house.

[AloeVera]

46. Head-battering and hitting nails with a ruler were my "teachers" favourites.

In the '60's, in Hungary under communism. And I was a "good, obedient" child.

Ugh

It is hard to believe.

[pnwmom]

50. It is still legal in some states. The last time the Supreme Court ruled on it

the case involved a 9 year old whose arm was accidentally broken in the course of it, but they still didn't outlaw school beatings.

[StarryNite]

73. Mind boggling that it's legal for a teacher to hit their students.

It would be like having your boss hit you if you did something wrong. Only much much worse because it's adults abusing children.

[pnwmom]

75. Twenty years ago here on DU there were still some people defending this.

I'm glad to see attitudes here have changed.

[wnylib]

54. Yes, I remember those days. I got hit with a ruler on my open hand once

when I was in second grade. Don't remember what my infraction was, probably something like chewing gum.

In my junior high, one of the teachers hit a male student so hard with a wooden paddle that he broke the student's tailbone. The parents demanded that the teacher be fired, but the school district refused to because they said that it was an accidental injury in the course of the teacher's duty to maintain classroom discipline. They transferred the teacher to a city high school. The parents won a lawsuit that required the teacher to pay for medical expenses.

Our homerooms were divided by gender. My homeroom teacher strongly opposed using paddles, especially on girls. She told us that when a male teacher uses a paddle on an adolescent girl, he is teaching her to accept physical abuse from men. She told us that if any of our male teachers tried to use a paddle on us, we should not stand still for it. We should walk out of the classroom and come straight to her room. (She taught science.) She said that she would intervene on our behalf.

[StarryNite]

72. It sounds like your homeroom teacher was a great person.

I bet she had a positive impact on girls growing up. Things that they remembered into adulthood.

[wnylib]

77. Oh, yeah. She was great. Students used to hang out

in her classroom after school. We felt like we could talk to her about anything.

[kcr]

60. It still is in many states

Particularly the south. Whole regions of our country are not civilized.

[StarryNite]

71. Good grief. :(

I had no idea it was still going on. I thought it all stopped back in the late 60s or early 70s.

[Ms. Toad]

61. It was routine in the high school I taught in from 1978-1989. n/t

[prodigitalson]

99. you could get it for bad grades, conduct or otherwise, if you were on my middle school football team in the late 70s

pretty barbaric actually

[StarryNite]

100. Yes, "barbaric" describes it perfectly.

[prodigitalson]

102. it was super unusual as well as cruel..even though it was ubiquitous

unusual as in really weird
if you got it from an older female teacher it was stupid, but no big deal pain wise.
if the suspected/later confirmed pedo male teacher did it, you felt violated, still didn't really hurt though
if one of the football coaches did it it was like a Singapore caining or a pirate ship flogging
it could leave welts on kids' flesh..and it happened every six weeks in the locker room when report cards came out

absolutely incredible in retrospect

btw, the young female teachers never did it..I like to think it was beacause they were decent people and not because some of us seemed eager for them to. middle school boys can be pretty bad, but hitting therm with sticks is not just morally wrong but it sends precisely the wrong messages...might makes right, violence is the best way to solve a problem, children have no rights to name a few

[StarryNite]

104. You make very good points.

Kids usually are taught to respect their teachers. Having a teacher use corporal punishment definitely gives kids the message that physical abuse is the way to solve problems.

[electric_blue68]

105. Paddles for coperal punishment made in school woodshops?! ☹️

[StarryNite]

107. When the boys got to pick things they wanted to make

some of the boys chose to make them to give to teachers.

[Kid Berwyn]

12. Something wrong somewhere.

[lindysalsagal]

14. Religion can be a divine cover for all manner of evils.

Gaslighting, just for a start

[TlalocW]

16. Kent Hovind, when not misrepresenting evolution

Once talked about punishing his son, Eric, essentially proudly bragging about it to the delight of his audience. It was sickening. He's also beaten two of his wives. Eric actually stole his ministry out from under him while Kent was in jail for tax evasion.

[irisblue]

17. My mom used wooden spoons. Not gonna say more

[geardaddy]

36. Mine, too

and hair brushes when the spoon wasn't handy.

[irisblue]

38. I do not say. Our moms failed

[geardaddy]

40. Luckily, my mom turned it around

She got sober and now we have a great relationship.

I didn't grow up in an Evangelical family. It's just that my mom had been hit when she was a child for punishment, so that's what she knew.

[moniss]

18. I remember families

where this was like a weekly ritual whether the kids had done anything or not.

[Grins]

25. Yikes!!! Ho-Lee-Shit! NM

[no_hypocrisy]

19. That was my father's MO.

God bless our dysfunctional family.

[Blue for the win]

22. Kooks

If you believe any of that b******* look in the mirror and you'll see a kook.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. "To Train Up a Child"

To Train Up a Child is a 1994 parenting advice book written and self-published by independent Baptists Michael and Debi Pearl, which has generated controversy for encouraging child abuse. The book has been endorsed by the Institute of Basic Life Principles. To Train Up a Child gained notoriety after methods recommended in the book were found to have contributed to several high-profile cases of child death.[3]

Michael Pearl (born 1945)[4] is an American independent Baptist preacher and author. After graduating from Mid-South Bible College, he worked with Union Mission in Memphis for 25 years.[5] His 2006 graphic novel Good and Evil[6] won the Independent Publishers' IPPY Award Bronze Medal in the Graphic Novel/Drama category in 2009[7] and was a 2009 ForeWord Book Award finalist.[8] His other publications include No Greater Joy Magazine,[9] Training Children to be Strong in Spirit,[10] and Created to Be His Help Meet.[11]

...

To Train Up a Child has been criticized for advocating child abuse. The book tells parents to use objects like a 0.25 in (6.4 mm) diameter plastic tube to spank, or assault, children and "break their will". It recommends other abusive tactics like withholding food and putting children under a cold garden hose.[4][16] Its teachings are linked to the deaths of Sean Paddock,[17] Lydia Schatz,[18] and Hana Grace-Rose Williams.[19] In all three cases, homeschooling parents acted on the Pearls' teachings.

[Joinfortmill]

27. Sickening.

[keithbvadu2]

35. These sick folks give advice on beating babies.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101104141241/http://www.achristianhome.com/to_train_up_a_child.htm

These folks give advice on beating babies.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/04/some-quotes-from-michael-pearl.html

[chowder66]

57. I would hope and wonder if anyone given that book stood up, threw it in the trash and walked away.

That is some of the sickest crap I've read and I can't believe it is allowed for print.

[geardaddy]

47. I remember that.

Sickening.

[Grins]

24. Rick Perlstein's book, "The Invisible Bridge."

A book on Nixon's fall and Reagan's rise, there are several pages detailing the Christian Reich and their beating their children. And I mean A LOT! Daily. Multiple times a day. For Jesus! And the GOP! All encouraged by the religious crackpots in the "church," and they only people with whom they regularly associated.

Been a while but I think there were two instances in the book where the children, now in late teens/early 20's', were so mentally screwed up by years of abuse, they finally - and brutally - killed their parents.

[Figarosmom]

26. Maybe someone

Should check for a hard on. I think they get off on it

[Bernardo de La Paz]

30. Please post a detailed explanation of "a gard on". I've not heard of one before. Do you have pictures to help?

[Figarosmom]

33. Hit wrong key

Hard not gard

[Bernardo de La Paz]

53. :)

[H2O Man]

28. Gracious!

My siblings & I got hit by both parents. My mother used a wooden spoon or a slap. My father hit me with everything from his fisdts to a shovel ...... sometimes for something I said or did, other times for no known reason at all. And he could punch hard -- I guess that's the reason that very, very few guys could hurt me when I boxed in my youth.

[rich7862]

29. The Evangelist Cult and trump

I want to know more on why you are not covering stories of the Evangelical religion making a deal with trump. Evangelicals will be told to vote for trump and in return the evangelical cult will be the only religion allowed in America.

Nothing is ever said about the religious outrage. It is hidden in the GOP’s Project 2025

[Mr.Bill]

31. My parents never inflicted pain on me.

But I always feared they would. That was not as bad, but not very good, either. The threat was always there and verbalized.

[Maeve]

32. People don't have to be religious to think they are gods

That is, to believe they have the right, even the duty, to force others to do what the abuser thinks is right. And the right to do as they feel, no matter who it hurts.
Unfortunately, religion too often gives them cover for this.

[mzmolly]

34. My husband was a product of this bullshit.

I was abused as well, but not in the name of "God"

[Mblaze]

41. Spare the rod and

Let the unique individuality, creative expression, comfort in themselves and future kindness flourish in your children.

IMHO, that's what the Bible should have said.

[HeartsCanHope]

74. Thank you for this, Mblaze!

Cannot for the life of me believe that we are supposed to beat our children into submission no matter what your belief system is! Children have to learn to govern their own behavior. How could beating a child because you are angry do anything positive? It just teaches you when you are angry to hurt someone else. We practiced time out at home. Sit quietly and think about why what the child did that was not nice to the other person worked so well. Worked when I taught school, too. Only a handful of kids ever got sent to the office.

[Mblaze]

98. Thank you for teaching our children

It's good to know that there are still caring people.

[ancianita]

42. This small survey does not mean all religious communities. That's an inaccurate extrapolation.

As the title gives that inaccuracy away: " The Evangelical family's twisted obsession with corporal punishment" denotatively means "All," when the most truthful word would be "Some." Adding to that skewing of numbers is that the article doesn't say what percent of evangelicals these reports come from. (Maybe I missed that?) So probably, this piece looks to a fact-based thinker like some anecdotal testimony collection presented as a report of harmful parenting by a sub-subset one subset of christianity (25%).


1. Note that wikipedia, for all the numbers and studies, never mentions religion at all. There's a reason for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_in_the_United_States#:~:text=More%20than%20a%20third%20of,parents%20during%20childhood%20or%20adolescence.

2. Note the discussion from a Christian source...

Are the Bible's Rod Verses commands from God?

This one is easy. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

wisdom literature was never intended to express direct commands (and never claimed to).
Furthermore, if we start treating these verses as direct and literal commands, it would require us to be consistent and treat ALL the Proverbs as direct and literal commands. So we would be obligated to literally put a knife to our throat if we struggle with gluttony (Proverbs 23:2), take a man’s clothes away if he has put up security for a stranger (27:13), never speak a word if a fool happens to be listening (23 ), etc.

These verses are all phrased as imperatives, but that doesn’t mean they are commands from God.
However wise or applicable they may be, we should NEVER say something like “God commands us to…” when citing a Proverb. The Proverbs are NOT God’s direct commands...

If parents think that corporal punishment is unequivocally commanded (or recommended) by God, it’s very easy for them to slip into applying it in ways that are far from wise. Like…

-- Treating it as a magic potion that will solve all parenting issues if you just use enough of it (which might lead to hitting harder and harder for longer and longer until you slip into something that is seriously abusive.)
-- Assuming all the studies on the subject are completely useless and just designed to undermine God’s word.
-- Telling other Christians who choose not to spank that they are directly disobeying God.
-- Relying on spanking as your default method of discipline instead of considering other options.....

https://www.leyadelray.com/2021/05/15/is-it-biblical-to-spank-your-kids/

[MineralMan]

62. "Not all men" logical fallacy?

[ancianita]

86. Sure.

[MineralMan]

45. There's one verse in the Old Testament book of Psalms:

“Those who spare the rod hate their children, but those who love them are diligent to discipline them” (Proverbs 13:24).

This is the source of all of that, and it is often quoted by those who seem to take pleasure in inflicting pain on their children.

Not surprisingly, it comes from the Old Testament, a collection of oral tradition scriptures that dates back to a time when humans were just past the hunter and gatherer stage. It is full of violence, revenge, and other ugliness, often attributed to the "will of the Lord," for the Old Testament deity was not a nice sort of entity.

And, yet, the very same people who do those vengeful things will turn their cheeks and speak of the "God of Love," and the "Prince of Peace." It is, and has always been a sham. The Old Testament God went so far as to drown every person and other living thing on the Earth, save one family and some useful animals. Why? Because they weren't doing what He told them to do.

I started realizing all of that, beginning about the age of 12. The more I read of scripture (and I read every word of it), the more I realized that it was the words of angry, violent men, recorded as scripture to justify their behavior.

Then, I stopped believing any of it, once and for all.

[phylny]

49. Interestingly, the rod is not used to beat the sheep

but to guide the sheep.

My brother and sister-in-law did this. Hit I mean. They were really into Focus on the Family. Their oldest son has nothing to do with them, half of their children (there are nine) are screwed up. Their third oldest has flat out, told them that they were abusive.

[ancianita]

52. Psalms are literally the "songs" OF David, then later, he & his people who broke their covenant with God - NOT of God.

The psalms were collected as part of the Hebrew record of the House of David.

[MineralMan]

56. Yes, I know that.

Millions of others, however, do not, and aren't interesting in knowing that, nor in teaching that.

If you believe that the Bible is being fed to the masses by people who want everything to be peace and love, you have missed a lot.

Go into any church on Sunday. Consider how many of those sitting in the pews have actually read the scriptures and understood them. Precious few, I can guarantee.

The Bible, overall, is full of wisdom. Sadly, that wisdom is not generally taught, and so is compromised to mean whatever someone wants it to mean. Because of that, it is essentially useless, generally.

Far more harm and violence has been caused by the Holy Bible that has been prevented. That is simply the truth.

Read the accounts in this thread from DUers. Don't pretend it isn't so. It is.

[ancianita]

66. No doubt. And admirable.

If you believe that the Bible is being fed to the masses by people who want everything to be peace and love, you have missed a lot.

Some have missed alot, agree. The Bible is not in error. Those who have ignorantly and arrogantly misused its message to do violence are condemned by the very Bible they abuse in its name. They are in error, not the Bible. History and the Bible both confirm that.

The Bible contains a "Wisdom" section -- Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom. In some Catholic Bibles (only minimally differ in book number from the best word-for-word version, the King James Version), the Song of Songs and Psalms are also grouped in the Wisdom books section.
But the Bible itself is not a "book of wisdom."

Go into any Catholic Church -- the millions of them across nations and continents, celebrated at least 2-4 times every Sunday and once every single day of the week -- where the exact same Mass is celebrated, and you will hear every word of its two-part Liturgy come from the Bible. It is not a "worship service," as protestants call it.
It is the Mass, celebrated by the apostles and their successors for almost two millennia. That's how important the Bible is in Catholicism, contrary to what non-Catholics think.

The Bible's Four Gospels of the New Testament explain the founding of the New Covenant made by the historical Jesus and his promise to all humans (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22 –38; and I Corinthians 11:23–25). It is the heart of the Catholic Mass.

I appreciate and support the accounts of DU'ers.
I also remember that plenty of DU'ers have laughed when anyone mistakenly says that DU is representative of Democrats at large. The 51+% of Democrats who are Christian would argue against the claim that violence is "caused by the Bible."

Thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for reading mine.

[MineralMan]

81. Aside from old age and disease,

Disputes over religion are the biggest cause of deaths and misery on this planet. Throughout history.

[ancianita]

85. Some say

the same about the United States and democracy. I could say a lot about believer wars, but will just end with a few thoughts...


Except for 45 (ranked #46 of US presidents), all our past presidents have been Christian.
All Western rule of law -- common and international -- has been biblically based.
Our young Founders acknowledged a "Creator," while they sought to found a good, just and peaceful nation.

Inaugural swearings on the Bible go beyond upholding and defending the US Constitution. Inaugural swearings are biblically based oaths to the God who tells nations in his Word that He loves just and good governance, and whose Son first declared the separation of church and state .

The Bible is one "cause" of why Abraham Lincoln (ranked #3) fought to preserve the union -- and why Biden (#14) has battled for '"the soul of the nation."
Lincoln:
"In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it."

What the Bible says has almost nothing to do with religion and everything to do with faith, hope and charity (the other word for love).


Thanks for the conversation.

[MineralMan]

92. Nothing wrong with the Bible.

Last edited Sat Oct 5, 2024, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

Like all scriptures, it represents the common wisdom of the society that produced it. As you said, it is religion that is the problem.

I was talking about religion.

ETA: I am only talking about the scriptures in terms of their instructions about societal things. All of them also are full of whatever mythology their followers can believe. Deities and supernatural stuff is necessary in ancient writings to explain the inexplicable. I ignore that stuff when studying religious scriptures. I cannot believe any of it, so I don't bother with it.

[ancianita]

93. Then

the discussion about the Bible "causing" violence is seemingly resolved; and imo, the construct of religion is in question.

That's my understanding.
My view of religion as a construct is similar to how race is a construct. Both are constructs of hierarchies to establish power differentials maintained by top down threats of violence toward those below base -- and through soft and hard enforcement of the hierarchies -- a kind of 'hell-on-earth' use of unjust laws (race/social) and non-biblical 'rules' (religion/spiritual) that imagine a "God of power."

Those who actually read and understand what they read, know that the Biblical God and his Son don't love power or power worshippers. What he and his Son say a thousand times across the OT and NT is that they love all the humble, meek, and lost of the world. Lincoln understood God's Word that way, unlike the power worshipper leaders of the slave owning south who began their secession.

Today's "religious" power worshippers are their legacy, best exemplified by their self-proclaimed "christian" nationalism. They worship the power of Mammon and justify that through what they call religion.

Overall, religion is in question because

a) the Bible is not about religion; it's about God's 6 covenants with today's Christian ancestors;
b) religion is about the Bible, only as a projection of their worship of a God of power (social and spiritual); thus, most who call themselves "religious" fail to understand the Bible as its Writer intended, and
c) their 'religion' includes that they "know" the "will of God," such that their human-centered, misunderstanding hearts, lead to chronic needless sin(trespasses like pride, envy, anger, greed, lust, gluttony, sloth ); human strife, "religious" conflicts, wars and rumors of wars...

so overall, no justice, no freedom, no 'peace on Earth, goodwill toward men.'

[MineralMan]

94. We don't really disagree.

However, religion and scriptures can't really be separated in the real world. If you like, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible, for example.

Slavery? It's in there, in the form of instructions to the enslaved. So, religion can claim that slavery's OK.

The contradictory nature of religion and scripture is constant. Now, if you reduced the bible to just the Book of Matthew, for example, you'd not find all that nastiness. Isn't that interesting?

Christianity, as a cluster of organizations, has precious little to do with Christ or his teachings. Each religious sect picks and chooses what it wants from scriptures, to suit its own goals.

Nothing new about this. It's been going on for centuries, and even millennia. That's why religions are so popular. They can interpret their underlying scriptures to take any position you can imagine.

It's not just me. It's the fact.

[ancianita]

97. Thanks, and I I fully understand that. (Sorry for the delay, it's been a day... )

I'd like to respond to each of your ideas... but this'll take me a couple of posts...

However, religion and scriptures can't really be separated in the real world. If you like, you can find support for almost any position in the Bible, for example.

Scripture itself, written within a 500 year period, has been misquoted and used our of context as the basis for all kinds of pride/ego harms.
Those who believe in the God of that Scripture and live in the real world, know that while there's much glory, beauty and exquisite science that shows the real world their God made -- billions of galaxies, solar systems, all the science, math and knowledge about all the cosmos and on Earth -- they also know that God didn't make them robots but gave them free will. They know that many have used free will in great ways for the betterment of humanity and the planet. But they've not given much thought to how the lazy use of free will, that puts them first, leads to the normalizing of sin so much that they've now an inverted human sense of right and wrong, from the interpersonal to national relationships, or that another 'real world' is possible. The one that used to be in good working order. How'd free will become so hard to use responsibly? The story (in the Book of Enoch, found in caves by the Dead Sea in 1948, and which completely explains Genesis 6) is that heavenly hosts sent down to check on humanity refused to do it, and a third followed the Shatan (now called Satan/Lucifer) and would rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. Pride. Not a lot of Christians know that even those spirits of darkness -- variously called devils, Satan, The Enemy -- can quote scripture perfectly.


Re your point about slavery in the Bible. Yes, slavery has existed on every continent from the beginning. And to leave slavery has been, historically, mostly harder for the enslaved than for the enslavers. As shown in our history by the Moses of American slaves, who she had to literally force at gunpoint to leave to freedom. And as shown biblically by an enslaved people "chosen" by their God to leave their 400+ years of enslavement to Egypt, to learn through the original Moses who God is, follow his rules for living upright and orderly lives (keeping their covenant promises to keep commandments, follow laws, seek justice, love mercy and walk humbly and have faith in Him).
Yet time after time, his chosen people failed, went back to worshipping the power in what they could "see" -- Egyptian idols, others of other peoples; then were purified by their sufferings, returned to their God, atoned, and went through the sin cycle all over again through the covenants, law & the prophets made by the people before them -- Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and David -- for over a thousand years, until the prophets were vindicated, and their God sent the only one perfect enough to atone through sacrifice that would seal up all the other covenants once and for all, not just for them anymore but all humans beyond them, through faith, hope and love, would have life through Him beyond this one.

...if you reduced the bible to just the Book of Matthew, for example, you'd not find all that nastiness. Isn't that interesting?

Sure, for Christians or anyone else who don't want to read the nastiness of the OT about how people struggled to follow their God until Jesus showed up.
When Jesus got challenged by lawyers who checked if he knew the "greatest law" he summed up all the law & the prophets in 2 commandments -- "love God with your whole soul, your whole heart, your whole mind, and your whole strength. And the other is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself." He got a lot of dumb questions after that.
Those lawyers then and most Christians now don't care to know that Jesus added the "whole mind" part to Moses' identical Shema from a thousand years earlier, Moses' law that all future leaders of the Hebrews would have to read to themselves every single day of their rule. Jesus used to say to conniving Pharisees, Sadduccess and scribes, stuff like "... wtf guys? Don't you even read your own laws?? "
Like the lawyers then, most Christians today don't know the "with your whole mind" part, and it shows.
They don't know because it's too time consuming and bothersome to read and learn more about the struggles (and nastiness) of their spiritual ancestors. But if they took the time to learn that 3,000 years of morality learning, they'd see that records of law, courts, judges, testimonies and eyewitnesses of today that came from those days, don't come any easier today than they did through those millennia. But I do go on...

With that in mind, Matthew was a Jew and tax collector when Jesus met him, and this hated tax collector/money guy dropped everything and followed Jesus. Matthew knew previous scripture (all OT at the time, right), went to synogogue like Jesus and everybody else, so Matthew ended up writing to a Jewish audience. All the (now)red letter printed teachings of Jesus that his Gospel's filled with, would be peak morality for them. And for lots of people today.
But the reason the Bible, collected by 350 AD into 66 books written by 40 writers across three continents, is to show the scope and sweep of human history about not just god consciousness, but God consciousness, up to and after Jesus' appearance (and complete genealogy back to Adam) in Matthew. Matthew is in that context for God's reasons, according to St Peter's apostolic successors in the Council of Rome. They included
-- all Hebrew Scripture,
-- the Four Gospels that explain what Jesus's mission accomplished, along with what and how his 12 apostles should carry out his 'Great Commission' to spread his teaching to all humankind
-- books on what happened in the first generations of Jesus's Church and believers after that;
-- and finally, what John the apostle wrote (the only one not killed as a witness to Jesus) a Gospel, 3 additional epistles and the last book in the collection, the Book of Revelation -- about how all will eventually be on earth as it is in heaven.

A great story, some say the greatest hoax and delusion. Most humans know that hoaxes and delusions never last.

They can interpret their underlying scriptures to take any position you can imagine.

Gotta say, that's what HE said. Because from His day to now, they don't know scripture because they haven't read it.

Every year for 35 years I'd do a unit on the history of written word with my students -- from 9th-12th grade, whatever my schedule was. I'd end the unit by asking them to write down what's worse than not knowing how to read. They'd rattle off stuff like "starving, disease, bad luck, having to write stuff, going to school," etc. Then I'd say their answers are why their parents sent them to me. So they'd ask: "Well, what's the right answer?!" I'd say, "go ask your parents tonight."

Appreciate your astute observations and feel honored by our discussion. Until tomorrow...

[Wicked Blue]

51. My parents weren't very religious but I lived in terror of the belt

They were immigrants from Europe. They might have had PTSD from WW2 for all I know. They believed in physical punishment/abuse.

Even a half-century later, the sight of a man's belt - a belt that isn't being worn - upsets me.

[Deep State Witch]

64. My Mom Broke A Wooden Spoon on My Ass

And then got mad at me because her spoon broke!

[paleotn]

65. Hands only. Guess I was lucky

By the time I came along, mom was so good at the parenting thing, a finger snap or look was enough to keep me in line. Seriously, dad’s experience was very different and he wanted no repeat of it with his kids.

[Initech]

67. Evangelical Christianity is inherently cruel by nature.

[Blue Owl]

69. Hey Dobson -- focus on your own damn family

My parents were all about the “Dobson Doctrine”,

While I think children do need boundaries and some smart guidance or “discipline” (for lack of a better term), Dobson took it way too far and his doctrine is not suited for today’s day and age…..

[LiberalFighter]

76. Were there specific geographic areas?

[Fla Dem]

79. Getting paddled was something that went on in our elementary school.

If you were misbehaving, you were sent to the principal's office where he would spank you. It never happened to me, but all the teacher would have to do is threaten a misbehaving kid with being sent to the principal's office and for the most part the kid would behave.

I don't think it was a severe spanking, maybe a few slaps across their rear end, but it was enough to set a kid straight.

[milestogo]

80. Somewhere down the road many of these parents will find themselves estranged from their adult children.

They won't understand why, they won't be able to figure it out, and there will be no remedy.

[valleyrogue]

83. Dobson was and is a bad influence on society.

I strongly suspect he was physically abused as a child. He was an only child, but I always got the feeling that he was on the receiving end, so to speak, of his father's corporal punishment. He, like a lot of other people who were spanked and otherwise beaten as children, figured it was okay to assault their own kids since THEY turned out okay.

In The Strong-Willed Child, Dobson infamously bragged about beating up his pet dachshund for being "strong willed."

Dobson's schtick was to be the anti-Benjamin Spock, and it made him a ton of money. He was also a brazen misogynist who believed, long after it went out of style to nearly the point of extinction, mothers should stay home with their kids being bored to death until the kids left home for good.

Dobson is just bad news.

[Junipercity]

84. Hot wheels tracks

My mother would use hot wheels tracks. She would sometimes dissociate when whipping me, especially when she was mad at Dad.

I slept with my cloths on, with my shoes by my side. More than once did I swiftly exit via the window.

Sometimes I'd come back in a few hours, sometimes in a couple of days. Sometimes the house would be smashed to bits when I got back.

This was in the 70's.
No religious affiliation.
I was pretty much gone by the age of fifteen.

[LudwigPastorius]

87. If they ran public schools:

[AncientOfDays]

88. My dad ...

... was a fundamentalist preacher. He used a belt on me until I was 16. Leaving marks/bruises to the point of bleeding. He only stopped because of outside involvement. "spare the rod and spoil the child"

Took me a couple decades to work out. Might still have some effect on me.

[Takket]

89. my wife was beaten with wooden spoons when she was a child by her mother

We have never owned a wooden kitchen utensil and never will. it causes her trauma to even see one. she was raised a Jehovah's Witness (she escaped the religion in her 20s, at the cost of most of her family).

[hunter]

90. All children are born curious.

If one wants them to embrace some shitty anti-intellectual religion then that curiosity has to be beaten out of them. The same is true of certain non-religious ideologies.

Religious "tolerance" is not necessarily a good thing and should not be celebrated in and of itself. Abusive anti-intellectual religions and ideologies should not be tolerated.

[valleyrogue]

96. I was spanked by my mother when I was a little kid,

but I remember relatively little about it. She focused instead on verbal abuse, which went on until well into my adulthood. She also didn't respect all of us kids' boundaries and privacy, which went on for many years and well into adulthood.

One of my older brothers and my dad also engaged in it against me on a regular basis. Mostly, though, it was my mother.

It was only about the last eight or ten years of her life when she finally treated me like a human being instead of denigrating me on my appearance or interests or life choices.

Verbal abuse can be just as wounding as the physical if not worse. I don't care if the parents provide for you materially. If they denigrate you, they are lousy parents.

[Aussie105]

101. In some countries physical punishment of children - and spouses - is illegal.

This includes:

A teacher physically punishing a student.

Any 'in charge' adult physically punishing a child. Babysitters, neighbours, church folk.

A parent punishing a kid in public.

An adult who presents a child - or spouse - to medical personnel with obvious signs of physical punishment done in private.

Kids who grow up in a physically punitive environment often tend to continue that trend in adulthood. Unfortunately.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/australian-man-who-cable-tied-children-caught-swimming-in-his-pool-found-guilty-of-assault/ar-AA1rH7do?ocid=BingNewsSerp

He got off too light!

[Dear_Prudence]

103. "America's dad"

Is a nickname some have affectionately given to Walz. It makes me shudder. It conjures violent images and painful memories. I believe others in this discussion might share the same reaction.

[electric_blue68]

106. woah... It's terrible that you all experienced physical & emotional punishment; and often left w triggers...

I was mostly very lucky. Almost Never spanked. Maaaaybe twice? Very, very vague. Pretty young on ?6, 7, or 8?
I know I definitively didn't have any over arching fear of corporal punishment from either of them.

I think once I wrenched out of my mom's grip, and maaaaybe nearly had my shoulder dislocated. But the physical memory is barely there, I think I have a memory of my mom saying saying something about it....maybe being upset it happened like that.
Haven't thought of that in decades!

There was off & on verbal yelling from my dad when I was youngish 6 -?8. He unfortunately was under a lot of stress bc his wife, my mom had gotten terribly ill w asthma- especially from when I was 5 1/2 - 7 to 8+ish. My only sib younger has no memory of my mom being vibrant and well. My mom became more vibrant again some years later, but w bad asthma lurking around the corner.

We moved 10 blocks north when I was 7 1/3 - but it was far enough at that age I lost almost all my friends except one, and then went to different school.

So I think the stress he had worrying about her, plus our apt building started to be abused by a bad landlord: I'd get cranky when we were promised to do something, go somewhere and we couldn't bc of my mom. He'd tell me I was "selfish". Terrible for a yoing Cathoilc girl to hear that.

He didn't do much of yelling (and none of that "selfish" appelation) later on, except some during our feisty younger teenage years.

Those outings for me were a way to destress from being nervous about my mom's terribly changed condition. I was stressed by losing my old friends as well. Plus the new clique-y aspects of certain artistic kids that didn't want much to do w me when I was around ?9-10. I was very artistic, too.
Oh, I made friends, yes, just not those particular girls.

So my fears were walking on eggshells when any of us got colds that my mom could catch, and trigger bad asthma attacks; and the violations of slow elevator repairs, and the equivalent accumulation by a few days at a time of a month's worth of no heat (occasionally no hot water) in the Late Fall through Early Spring from the time I was 9 through when we moved when I was 17. And this was in a Middle Class neighborhood! That landlord was actually a slum landlord else where in the city.

No fun at all, but at least I didn't have the addition of physical punisment on top of that!
We did as a family have some very sweet, and fun times at home, and in our city in between our challenges. Visiting our two sets of cousins in Northern NJ was a big part, too, and some of our vacations to mostly New England.