General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDamn, finding a new job in middle age is a tough proposition...
So some of you had asked for me to keep you updated with my job search... And I'm sure a lot more of you don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
For those who don't know, I recently lost my job doing residential construction, and have been trying to find a new job to make sure I can keep a roof over my head. I used to work in HR a lifetime ago, and I totally understand that it's a somewhat lengthy process even in the best circumstances. And I've only been at it for a couple weeks thus far, and the time from application to interview (if you're that fortunate) to final hire usually stretches out longer than that time frame. But boy oh boy, it's a lot more demoralizing than I remembered.
I'm not looking for anything fancy, just work that I can do with my hands, because I know there's always a demand for that kind of thing. But when I show up, even at day labor places, and the decision makers see my grey beard, I can instantly tell just from the look on their faces that they'll be professional and polite to me, but also that I'm not walking out of that office with any work.
So I thought, "Well, a lot of people seem to be doing OK with driving for Uber, delivering food for Door Dash, etc." So I applied to those two and a few other "gig economy" things, and am waiting to hear back. However, in the meantime, I've been doing my due diligence, and from what I've learned thus far, the wages are appalling, their workers are exploited as much as possible, and if you give any push back, they'll cut you loose pretty much instantly, because there's always someone else to take your place, irrespective of how shitty the wages and working conditions are.
I guess this is the culmination of Reaganomics... The rich sucked up all of the excess profits, and demand an ever-increasing share of the pie, leaving nothing of substance for anyone else. So much for their tired aphorism "A rising tide lifts all boats", huh?
marybourg
(13,214 posts)prospective employers by doing some simple things to make ourselves appear younger.
Jim__
(14,503 posts)white hair are dead give-aways - even when the people with grey or white hair are actually pretty young.
pecosbob
(7,904 posts)At sixty-five you have to clutch every job for dear life.
Happy Hoosier
(8,559 posts)I hope to be ready for retirement at that age which isnt too long from now. But if youre not in a position to consider retirement, that must feel like a constant Sword of Damocles.
Farmgirl1961
(1,643 posts)About 7-years ago, I opted for early retirement from my government job. Shortly thereafter I went back to school to get my AAS in Massage Therapy and was finishing my studies/practicum as the pandemic started. Although I probably could find work as an LMT, what I find is that most facilities want an LMT to work back-to-back-to-back massages and the work can be grueling. So, I do have a table set up in my home and keep it very low key. I've been trying to get back into my field on a part-time basis (I did environmental protection/regulatory work), but am finding it very difficult to re-enter the field. I have a varied and comprehensive skillset and strongly believe I'm continually turned down due to my age. It's such a shame because I believe I, and people of my age range, have much to contribute..
Hekate
(95,300 posts)You know the rest as regards being clean and tidy. But as regards age just doing a few things like minimizing the gray will take some years off your apparent age.
MLF1981
(211 posts)I've seen some grey hairs here and there, but you'd never notice them in a casual context. Just today, I took my beard down to a neatly trimmed goatee and mustache, and the shorter length actually helps a lot. I gotta say though, I feel strange not having all of my whiskers.
Hekate
(95,300 posts)Bet you look good!
Im way past retirement now, but as long as I was employed and otherwise in the public eye with community activities, my auburn hair stayed auburn. Ageism is alive and well in this country.
Best of luck to you!
Joinfortmill
(16,635 posts)Captain Zero
(7,581 posts)Look at the younger people they choose. How are they dressed?
I'm not saying dress like them, but dress closer to how they look.
This worked for me as a hire-on in the community mental health field, where mostly younger people were working the position I was seeking. Later on a young director commented to me that I dressed younger than most men my age, 58 at the time. And she even said I don't know why older guys don't dress a little younger.
Mossfern
(3,251 posts)It's horribly depressing. Replying to job listings, completing applications, tailoring resumes is very time consuming. Most of the time those applications and resumes seem to end up in an abyss. Nobody has the decency to let you know that they've already hired someone else - just leave you hanging for week, even months.
Finally at this point in time, they are all employed ...or rather underemployed. Hopefully they can advance in their jobs or find better ones. (knock on wood). Sometimes I think that I should have sent them to trade school instead of university.
They stayed afloat by doing menial odd jobs just to put food in their mouths. One of them (holder of a PhD in a science related field) spent a year living out of their van.
I sincerely send you my best wishes and hope that you find decent employment soon.
ETA: BTW, they are 36 and 44. The tips others have given you are spot on.
Also: I deemed your post worthy of my 3,000th reply. I know several people in their
40's and 50's in the same boat. There's something happening here.
MLF1981
(211 posts)Not going to specify which, but everyone on the planet is familiar with it... I was an HR professional, and the 2008 recession was what got me. I got laid off and had to take any work I could get, which I did, but I was never able to get back into professional work and use my degrees or experience.
"Replying to job listings, completing applications, tailoring resumes is very time consuming. Most of the time those applications and resumes seem to end up in an abyss. Nobody has the decency to let you know that they've already hired someone else - just leave you hanging for week, even months."
Yep. Finding a new job is a full-time job. When I was in HR, I would get a sufficient number of resumes for a position, and send a form letter to unsuccessful applicants as soon as I knew that we had an accepted offer. When did that common courtesy become so uncommon? The better candidates would get a personalized response that encouraged them to apply again in the future. And even though it was skirting company policy, I would give feedback to the better candidates so they knew how best to present themselves and their skills next time.
The labor market is broken. Every company is holding out for that perfect unicorn that absolutely does not exist, and if they don't find them in round one, they'll hold out forever until they do (which they won't) or until business necessity forces their hand. Nobody is willing to invest anything more than the bare minimum into training, if you can't "hit the ground running" from day one, they simply are not interested in you.
"One of them (holder of a PhD in a science related field) spent a year living out of their van."
That's appalling. There is something seriously wrong when a PhD in a STEM discipline is living out of a fucking van. No offense, of course, but that shit really pisses me off...
and this PhD holder has published and even had an article in the Economist.
Many employers now want people to work 70 hours per week for less wages and be at their beck and call 24/7.
Thank you for being a respectful and compassionate HR person - a true professional.
Hopefully your good karma will come back to you.
democratsruletheday
(1,229 posts)SO many good posts, stories and I could go on and on but suffice it to say I've been there and done that for decades now. I'm 55 and a Sub teacher at an inner city high school near Kalamazoo. I am what is deemed as a 'permanent sub' so I'm there every day and cover whichever class they need to be covered. The variety of classes appeals to me and I really do like the kids (they get me for the most part) but making $750 per week isn't my idea of success. The flip side is my wife has a great career in digital media and makes over 100K as a Mgr. So we do OK and have our house paid off but IF my wife didn't have the job she does I would've been down and out years ago and I damn well know it. We don't discuss it verbatim but I acknowledge it and am humbled by it as well.
So let's talk turkey, HOW to get another job when you're older and being (age) discriminated against? All about connections and I think the best way is word of mouth, job clubs and of course linked in. I do know folks who have obtained employment via linked in. It's the real deal and I implore anyone looking for work to get on there and fill out a profile ASAP. Friends, family, linked -in and job clubs are all solid options in terms of developing connections and showing employers you're more than just a number.
dwayneb
(902 posts)Kind of off topic but I have seen many PhDs in science that didn't have a clue about how to do real work. Companies need people that have practical experience and know how to get things done. The aerospace company I worked for would rather have a BSME that knew how to apply themselves rather than some academic PhD.
Drum
(9,892 posts)OC_Lars
(38 posts)It really is odd to find yourself looking for a job again and realizing that this time age is a factor. Been through this recently. I wish you the best. I know it is not for everyone but it seems like grocery stores are always hiring. I worked part time at a specialty foods market while trying to get back into my industry. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Kept active and in contact with other humans which I felt kept me sane.
MLF1981
(211 posts)Me too! Before I went back to school though, Epicure Market in Miami Beach, a lifetime ago. I loved that job... It didn't pay very well, but I love cuisine, and I also got to meet a lot of kindred spirits there.
Great food, interesting people, beautiful location. Sounds like a dream... but yeah, the pay
Demsrule86
(71,033 posts)He does handyman work and remodeling. People are desperate for someone to help them.
Deminpenn
(16,348 posts)finding someone who can do handyman work is nearly impossible. You could work every day and probably name your price.
If you do good work and are reliable, you'd get a lot of word of mouth referrals.
AZLD4Candidate
(6,375 posts)But PA denied my out of state certification so I can't teach anymore.
Deminpenn
(16,348 posts)There is certainly a teacher shortage here. I know people from outside the teaching profession are being hired as teachers.
Here's a link that might help: https://www.education.pa.gov/Educators/Certification/BecomeAnEducator/Pages/default.aspx
AZLD4Candidate
(6,375 posts)Now, look at the actual page. This is for NEW educators. I am not new.
They are programs that start the person at the beginning again.
And now look at the only one I can use. Relay. Here is the tuition:
Credit hours vary from 18 to 24, depending location and program type. Here is the total tuition cost for each credit amount:
18 credits: $15,300
19 credits: $16,150
20 credits: $17,000
21 credits: $17,850
22 credits: $18,700
23 credits: $19,550
24 credits: $20,400
Even Slippery Rock will cost $11,000 a year and I would have to do everything I already did.
My post bac AZ program cost me $2500.
PA doesn't have alternative that's cost effective.
Deminpenn
(16,348 posts)here in Beaver county.
AZLD4Candidate
(6,375 posts)First question they ask: "ARe you certified here in Pennsylvania." When I respond "I'm having that done now" they tell me "please contact us when you are" and then either hang up or don't reply to emails.
Before you say, yes I have gone to both my Rep (useless Marla Brown) and my Senator (useless Michelle Brooks) and both have completely ignored me.
Deminpenn
(16,348 posts)school admins I know about certs.
Deminpenn
(16,348 posts)It explains the process for out of state teachers to be certified in PA. There are teacher reciprocity agreements with many states.
Applicants Prepared Out of State
https://www.education.pa.gov/Educators/Certification/CertFAQs/Pages/OutofStateApplicants.aspx
democratsruletheday
(1,229 posts)there is a franchise type company here called Handyman Connection and it is what it implies: a company that hires handymen to do whatever homeowners need: painting, drywall, doors, windows, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc....It's very successful and I mention it because maybe the OP could find a similar company in his area to apply to. They'd be lucky to have him.
Joinfortmill
(16,635 posts)usaf-vet
(7,019 posts)As I age and my physical abilities diminish, I can't do the things that were always routine. I am willing to pay someone to help me, but there is just no reliable help. I had a friend who would help me for years when his schedule allowed. Sometimes, it would take weeks to get him here, but he always came through. I always paid him well in cash. Sadly, R.F. passed away way too young and is missed in the community.
The other thing I have noticed is when you find someone who might do several jobs for you but then just moves on or doesn't need the work. So you are back to square one.
My list of things that need to be done grows longer.
But that, I guess, is the world we live in for now.
MLF1981
(211 posts)But if you have work that needs done, I'd be happy to talk and work something out.
erronis
(17,181 posts)Going through a commercial job marketeer (indeed.com for example) just puts you into that gigantic maul of resume word-processing.
Find groups of like-minded people. Start your own group (meetup?). Make a catchy 4x6 handout with some good info and spread it around to local shops.
Don't rely on the internet for everything!
erronis
(17,181 posts)It does help that my skills are in computers - programming, web, databases, security. But even those are in less demand in the last 5-10 years.
BootinUp
(49,169 posts)1. If you think your appearance is not helping, then maybe put a little time into altering it. Your beard is not the source of your strength.
2. Seek out any former work mates/bosses that may be willing to put in a good word for you.
I wish you all the luck and success.
Deminpenn
(16,348 posts)they have a work history and are reliable. If you show up for your shift every time, you'll be promoted in jig time.
richdj25
(192 posts)a couple of weeks. Made that public only because I'm still working full time for a government contractor in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area, known as the DMV.
Only been there 4 years after over 30 years in the private sector, and looking forward to retirement next year.
Just want you know that with those talents described, you should eventually land something. I say that because some employers embrace seasoned/skilled employees like us, which require little training and oversight.
Age discrimination is indeed still out there but not everywhere.
Good luck with the continued seach.
Keep checking there.
PaxPixie
(2 posts)I tried to get a job in the corporate sector again after leaving it a few years earlier (15+ years in software) and got nowhere. At the time I was a 48-year-old single woman with a lot of skills. I decided to eshew the corporate world all together and start a petsitting business as a sole proprietor. It took a couple of years to build a solid client base but I eventually earned enough to not only survive but thrive. I chose it because first and foremost I love animals. I'm my own boss. I set my own schedule. I have no overhead. No supplies to track. No building to maintain. I get new clients by referrals from existing clients, some of whom I've had for 20 years. I'm not rich but I want for nothing. If I can do it, you can too. Find what you love and figure out how to make money off it.
KS Toronado
(19,703 posts)Skittles
(160,331 posts)welcome to DU PatPixie!
FM123
(10,138 posts)Thanks for sharing your story with us!
LetMyPeopleVote
(155,550 posts)jfz9580m
(15,584 posts)Thanks for sharing your story . Good to have you on board .
infullview
(1,061 posts)I applied for a simple tech support position, I had what I thought was a great Google Meet interview. I had more than enough qualifications to do the job of tech support after having been an IT manager at a first responder Hazmat company. I also had 20 years of R&D software development for Data General and Entarasis (Cabletron Network Systems) - I think I could handle software updates on PC's and customer support trouble tickets (did that for 15 years with another company).
The result was that after the initial interview they ghosted me. I didn't hear back from them for weeks, and only after I inquired about the job position. WTH!? I just want to work for Christ sake!
I didn't believe that ageism is a thing either until you're personally faced with a year of no call backs for jobs you are amply qualifies for.
4lbs
(7,395 posts)I got hired last year, and I am in my 50s. I was "out of" the job market for almost a decade, but they still hired me. You just need to give a decent interview. Job pays decently too, $20 per hour here. Flexible hours, days, and scheduling. But, if you are a man (like me), they may want you to work nights and weekends first, and also lift things (like boxes at least 30+ or 40+ lbs).
It is in the restaurant industry, and we will train new people. However, you do need to at least be able to work with all sorts of people, all races/colors/genders. You likely won't be a "manager" right away, but may be one after a year or two. My 'bosses' (managers, supervisors, etc.) are all significantly younger than me, and some are women, but it doesn't really concern me. You also need to learn things relatively quickly. If we have to keep showing you how to do things, that might be a "red flag".
There are also a lot of other jobs in SoCal as well besides what we have to offer, but we are still hiring. Especially for November and December, the "holiday season", where people can really pick up extra cash, or "show their stuff", because we are near a major shopping center and those months get really busy around here. Being bilingual is a great help (most of our workers know Spanish), but not necessary. We will train in that too. Heh.
Elessar Zappa
(16,088 posts)Many, many older people cant find employment because of it. Im glad you have but not everyone is in your boat.
MLF1981
(211 posts)But I'm in East Tennessee, long way from SoCal. Actually, I do speak Spanish! I spent a lot of years in professional kitchens, and also in landscaping and construction. And I lived in Miami for two years, so I've had plenty of opportunity to learn and practice Spanish. Most people have no idea that the backbone of the restaurant industry are immigrants from Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. Every single one of those guys that I worked with came in every day, on time, never complained about anything, and worked their asses off.
Actually, I got into landscaping and construction because I got too damn old to keep up with the pace of a kitchen. As I'm sure you know, you have to not only be very good, but also very fast. I'm still pretty good, but the fast part is what got me. I ain't as young as I used to be... Last back of the house job that I had, I was the Sous Chef at a French Restaurant that has since gone under because of the Pandemic. Full brigade system, I was one of the few that didn't have any formal culinary training. I wish I could have made it to an Exec Chef position, because it's a lot less physically demanding, but it never happened. Oh well, c'est la vie...
usonian
(14,636 posts)I suggest contacting your network, because people are the only way to get an "in", and even then ... well you and I both know the odds.
I worked last at two startups, and then it got really impossible due to age. But I had put in plenty of years by then.
You might look for startups. They have money and are desperate to make a fast start. Age is a pain, as always.
A friend does handy man work, which never runs out.
I myself have some projects to farm out. (What's your 20? )
MLF1981
(211 posts)usonian
(14,636 posts)Can't farm out any work that I can think of. Getting a bit old for those projects I used to tackle. But if I have a need, so must others. I hope you find something really good.
I had some ideas that I was working on as startup ideas, but moving to the boondocks was way more taxing than I thought, and the nearby Radio Shack shuttered. I plan to move so as to simplify chores (I just walked over to the well to check on the electrical protection boxes. ) and be more idea oriented than fixit oriented.
It may be off your radar screen, but let me recommend Don Lancaster's Incredible Secret Money Machine (free) from the late great Don.
https://www.tinaja.com/ebooks/ismm.pdf
It will give a chuckle, if nothing else, and who doesn't need a chuckle?
His site is still up.
https://www.tinaja.com/
Don educated and inspired many of us tinkerers.
Much is VERY dated but his humor and understanding of psychology, and "what works" lives on.
🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀
AZLD4Candidate
(6,375 posts)reciprocity agreement with Arizona, I lost an 18 year career because they told me I needed to go back to school in a Pennsylvania approved teacher preparation program and redo everything I did years ago, including student teaching.
So at 45, I lost an 18 year career coming back from overseas. Luckily, I am inheriting my father's business and learning how to do it now and going for my EA certification from the IRS.
PatrickforB
(15,126 posts)In my state, Colorado, this system can help people get up to $6K to pay for occupation training. This is called an 'individual training account.' They can also pay for gas, tools if you need the, things like drug tests and physicals, and other support services you might need. In addition, they can give you a battery of career assessments, including transferable skills.
Now there are a bunch of opportunities out there you may not have heard about. Maybe you could get some training, for example, to become a machinist. No one really has enough computer-numeric-conrol (CNC) machinists and they are critical to a variety of companies in advanced manufacturing.
There are also positions in local governments for people who have construction backgrounds as well as general maintenance. You may also consider trying to get on with a power utility or even water plant.
To find the your closest workforce center, google 'career one stop' or 'workforce centers' and find the one closest to you. There is an eligibility process because they are federal dollars so there are a lot of regulations about how they get spent, but it sounds like you might be eligible, perhaps for the WIOA Dislocated Worker or Adult programs.
Good luck!
Joinfortmill
(16,635 posts)As for Uber, I just learned there's a program funded by Medicaid who has partnered with Uber to drive folks to their medical appointments. Sometimes, it's a long drive, but you might want to check that out if the program is in your area. Best of luck.
southmost
(816 posts)and in contractor positions...that's what eventually got my foot in the door at 50 yrs old... eventually my experience shone through and became an asset
bluboid
(709 posts)yup!
kacekwl
(7,650 posts)I looked everywhere for a job and as you said as soon as they saw your age it was a no go. I finally answered a ad for school bus driver. I was welcomed with open arms this was before the severe driver shortage we have now. I started immediately with paid training and help passing the CDL lic. test. I know people think it's only a part time gig but I consistently worked 30 to 40 hrs. A week with taking extra routes activities charters even Saturday and Sunday. There was plenty of summer work available too. Pay around my area now is about 25.00 per hr. to start. I did that for 11 years and had to stop due to a rotator cuff surgery but I enjoyed it for the most part. Look into it.
diane in sf
(4,102 posts)of skilled construction workers around here (SF Bay Area). Affording health insurance can be an issue, but on the upside, you can legally deduct an amazing amount of things from your taxable income. For this reason, you may want to keep some self-employment even if you do get another corporate position.
Unwind Your Mind
(2,165 posts)Im north of you a bit and a good handyman or someone who can build is always in high demand here
I was laid off in 2009 and have been busy for years now as an independent accountant for small businesses
I advise people who are starting out too, Im happy to answer questions if OP is interested
GenThePerservering
(2,675 posts)and was unable to get onto another project at the Cancer Center. He is a statistician and database manager with a degree in mathematics, computer science and 40 years in he field.
Man, he trudged from job interview to job interview and ran into the same ageism thing. One was that he was often over-qualified. Finally, at like the 14th job interview he hit gold and was hired on at a local community college running their databases, and working in a state-wide community college enrollment program.They were so eager to get him that they called on Friday evening and asked him to come on board - they didn't even want to wait until Monday. It was an 18- to 24-month project, but he has been there for 7 years, and they don't want him to leave. He's a treasure wherever he goes - works well with younger employees (treats everyone the same) and enjoys his work.
In the public sector, there is less discrimination and at least at this place walk their talk. But it got very discouraging for him - trying to find a job in tech at that age.
What I did when I lost my job data mining, after being laid off like 9 times in 15 years (one company hired me back three times!) was say "screw it, I'm going on my own" and I've been running a mail order business since then. I was 65 I think at that time.
Just keep at it and consider using your skills on your own behalf as a free lance handyman - they are VERY in demand!
JanMichael
(25,320 posts)Last edited Sat Oct 19, 2024, 09:00 AM - Edit history (1)
But suffice it to say that if an applicant has over 20 years in our retirement system and is approaching 60 they can guess length of tenure. You can get unreduced pension at 25 service years and 60 years old. I am talking about ED and other higher positions.
ellie
(6,965 posts)I was laid off in August. There are a lot of people I know in the same boat.
jfz9580m
(15,584 posts)I do hope something works out for you very soon. Ageism is indeed very demoralizing.
I dont get what is so awesome about youth. I look on age as something that brings experience and wisdom. Besides it is not as if a lot of the job market is that strictly competitive. There are circumstances that force people out of the workplace that are unfair and beyond ones control.
Please do let us know if something works out. I hope it will soon . You always have your DU family here..
dwayneb
(902 posts)I was faced with that situation years ago as an engineer. Finally I had to move out of my metro area to find a job. Eventually when the economy improved I got to move back to my home town.
But the lesson learned for me was that in today's world you may have to strike out geographically to find work. It's not easy when you have family but that's the harsh reality in many cases.
samplegirl
(12,157 posts)Here in Ohio and had to go to school to get a CDL and CDA to work at ODOT
At the low end of the pay scale and 8,000 for schooling.
Happy to say 10 days from now he's retiring.
The struggle is real!
Best of luck to you!
Tetrachloride
(8,486 posts)big firms include Findorff, Stevens and something with a C.
brush
(58,042 posts)make it subtle, not to dark. Get the rub-in eye bag reducer that takes a few minutes to work and you'll make a younger appearance. i know, been there, done that. It's important in your first contact with a job possibility before getting an interview even.
Interview attire is also important. Wear whatevr is customary for the field of work you're in. Make sure up-to-date and all that. Jacket, shirt and tie if you think it helps.
Good luck. And interview the interviewer with your own questions. Google good questions to ask during the interview.
Good luck. You'll be more confident with your preparation and it'll show to the hiring managers.
I just wanted to say that I find your posts and attitude inspiring. I have had a rough time in the last decade..not as bad as yours, but rough in its own way.
I have found it hard to find motivation. But I prefer being cheerful when it is possible, recognising that I am luckier than most people/animals on the planet even with my problems. But I simply cant do it the dead-eyed corporate/conservative way.
I find it much easier your way, ie explicitly from the political left rather than the right or centre.
I know you mentioned liking working with your hands more than paperwork, but imo you sound like a loss to employee-oriented HR .
I have generally liked HR and direct bosses in academia. Administration is a different matter..the nobs so to speak..yeah they are fun ..That is where the corporate style heartless policies and legalese comes in - even in academia.
Please let us know when something works out for you which I hope will happen soon 🤞.
bif
(24,262 posts)Once I hit 50, it was increasingly harder to get a job every time I was laid off.