I'm a little amazed at the number of DUers who are willing to join a "they stole it" conspiracy theory.

[LAS14]

It's no easier to manipulate the 10s of thousands of individual polling places now than it was when Biden was elected. Come on folks!!!! Don't turn DU into a conspiracy cess pool.

[Ponietz]

1. Recommended

[Silent Type]

2. Totally agree. But I expect more theories of how Musk changed votes all over America, or something.

The only difference is that we won't storm the Capitol or something similar. At least I hope we don't.

[Irish_Dem]

3. I am equally amazed more people aren't asking some hard questions.

And continue to swallow the BS thrown at us.

[gab13by13]

24. Probably the same people who

believed Garland was doing something behind the scenes.

Does anyone do audits/inspections on voting machines after the election? Just asking.

I am not a fan of ES&S voting machines. There have been anomalies with those machines in the past regarding discrepancies between exit polls and actual vote count.

It gave me pause when TSF publicly declared he didn't need any votes.

It amazes me how many people do not understand how evil TSF and right wing oligarchs are.

I do agree there is no evidence that the election was stolen and even if there was like in 2004 when votes were routed from Ohio to a warehouse in Tennessee it just gets covered up.

[Blue_Roses]

45. I missed that in 2004 ...

what happened with the routed votes from Ohio to the warehouse in Tennessee?

[gab13by13]

54. Pretty long story

but they nabbed the programmer who claims to have engineered the transfer of votes, but sadly he died in a small plane crash on his way to DC to testify.

[Blue_Roses]

103. Ohhhhh...

I remember that story!! That guy was the one who did it??? I remember when his plane crashed. I was actually on DU that day. Lots of us thought it was very weird that it happened on a day he was supposed to testify or give a deposition.

I'm gonna Google it cause I forgot his name.

Thank-you!

[biophile]

203. Sadly he died - more like, suspiciously he died in a small plane crash

[stillcool]

87. some states do...

they do an automatic random recount/audit of a certain percentage of the vote. The last I enquired my state only does it for Presidential elections. It's a shame how different states choose to run their elections, but there again, you get what you vote for. No surprises.

[yellowdogintexas]

178. Our machines are publicly tested before election

and audited afterward. Fort Worth Tx

[Bernardo de La Paz]

77. Questions are easy. Evidence is hard. I haven't seen evidence. . . . . . nt

[SomedayKindaLove]

141. Evidence

Same thing Trump also never had.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

150. Exactly. Which is why it is kind of shameful when people convince themselves of a conspiracy without evidence. . . . .nt

[SomedayKindaLove]

152. I don't think it's shameful

Kind of a natural part of the grieving process for a lot of people.

Also, has to be mentioned, just because there is no evidence now, it doesn’t mean there won’t be evidence later.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

180. Good points. It may be natural briefly, but it really is important to distinguish between imagination and facts

That questions would arise is a great thing, as is the imagination that fuels it. They are the source of creativity.

But ... it's really a good idea to be very clear with one's own self about what is imagination and what has fact behind it. And act accordingly, which means not claiming things without evidence, not spreading rumours except as clearly labelled sourceless rumours. Grieving does not in any way require abandoning rationality and doing so does not help grieving.

Regarding your last sentence, ... very true. Thus we keep our eyes open, scanning for information, connecting related things noted from elsewhere, etc.

[LAS14]

194. Well stated! nt

[Kid Berwyn]

145. Yup!

Never did say what his secret with Mike Johnson was, among other treasons.

[SheltieLover]

201. Absolutely!

[DeepWinter]

4. I utilize

the trash function heavily with the conspiracy and Not My President posts. Makes it a happier DU experience.

[Dem4life1234]

157. He's not my president never will be

[RockRaven]

5. The alternative is admitting they've been bamboozled by hype merchants.

The endless stream of nonsense posted by fans of clickbait grifters was too tempting to avoid, and now they have to decide: climb out of that rabbit hole, or dig it deeper. Some will dig...

[orange jar]

17. We aren't as immune to hype and propaganda as we think we are.

I hope that, after this election, Allan Lichtman will be seen as nothing more than a glorified astrologist. Wishy-washy, goalpost moving, egocentric self-flagellators such as he should forever be banished to the dark realm.

I'm also half-seriously and half-jokingly convinced that Meidas Touch is a Republican operative designed to scam Dems. Obviously they aren't, but they might as well be working for Trump with how genuinely damaging they and similar outfits are to Dems.

[bikes and bunnies]

84. How is Meidas Touch damaging?

Present your case.

[BonnieJW]

108. I agree

I listen to their podcasts all the time

[orange jar]

148. The hyperbole, for starters.

"Trump is DOOMED!!!" "Democrats DESTROY Republicans!!!" "Trump HUMILIATED!!!" "Trump surrogates SHREDDED ON LIVE TV!!!"

Then, when you watch the actual videos, you'll see probably the most milquetoast criticism of Trump and/or the Republicans ever uttered.

You don't think all that hyperbole and hype have led to unrealistically high hopes going into this election? Or cultivated a bubble of toxic positivity? They obviously aren't the only ones doing this, but they're the prime example of rage bait turned into revenue farming on the Democratic side.

[The Wandering Harper]

181. yep, those clickbait titles

I watched Meidas Touch for a bit, until I realized the titles of all the videos were hyperbolic clickbait, some bordering on lying

[live love laugh]

139. "We"

[SleeplessinSoCal]

6. Well it wouldn't be for want of trying.

Part of the playbook was to make everyone doubt results so that, as stated, we won't have to vote again.

Add to that doubt is the cost of elections. If social security benefits are cut, no way could I, and many others, donate enough to fight multi-f"n-billiinaires.

[live love laugh]

7. I'm amazed that you are so quick to swat away the possibility when Trumps own daughter OWNS voting machine trademarks

Reuters

China grants more trademark approvals for Ivanka Trump firm - including voting machines

https://www.reuters.com/article/business/china-grants-more-trademark-approvals-for-ivanka-trump-firm-including-voting-m-idUSKCN1NB0TL/

[Blue_Roses]

50. What?

This is news I haven't heard before. How did I miss this? Has anybody written or talked about it?

[BattleRow]

52. I have always wondered WHY we don't receive a receipt when we vote..or at least a verification by email or text or even

ANY transaction ,unless barter,provides proof of purchase Jus' sayin'.

[live love laugh]

91. That was discussed here after the theft of 2000. I learned

that receipts aren’t necessarily proof either. Physical counts are proof. Period.

There can also be representative sample counts as long as they are within statistical control points. But any anomalous results would necessitate a full count.

Florida in 2000 found ways to suppress votes during physical recounts by saying that if a punched hole in a ballot was not perfectly cleared of the punched-out “chad” the vote was invalid.

So lots was learned then but not a lot has been done to really assure security.

Then there’s the bragging multi voters I have seen on the Republican side. Last election some areas had more votes than people.

[HelpImSurrounded]

109. Receipts would not be valid for counting but would be useful for auditing.

[live love laugh]

111. Receipts would have to be validated first because they may be inaccurate.

The only sure and accurate item is the actual physical ballot.

[HelpImSurrounded]

114. As I said. Not for counting but useful for auditing

If the receipt and the ballot have matching hash codes and human readable information the match can be used to verify the accuracy of the original ballot. If tampering occurs such that the reader doesn't match the ballot or the ballot doesn't match the receipt it can identify that tampering actually occurred.

It would be laboriously slow but it would help ensure accuracy.

[BattleRow]

138. I have said for years ,hey you can't buy a stick of gum without a receipt,

but you have no proof of purchase so to speak with your vote.Duh?

I recall seeing a newscast where voters were holding up purple thumbs as proof of their vote..somewhere overseas

We don't get a thumb,but we sure got the finger.

[BattleRow]

137. I thank you for this info.2000 was a year in hell for me,so it's possible I totally missed it.

But I DO recall the hanging chad debacle.

Twenty four years hence,Im definitely older,but the jury is out on wiser....

[bdamomma]

124. Just a suggestion

regarding this week's election call your local election officials and see if they counted your Ballot.

[Self Esteem]

151. If it was one state, I could buy the possibility.

But my dudes, we're talking multiple states that shifted right - multiple states led by DEMOCRATIC administrations.

Do you think J. B. Pritzker is either naive to it or ... maybe in on it?

In 2020, Biden won Illinois by SEVENTEEN points. Harris? She'll win it by about eight/nine.

[live love laugh]

155. OK, so you see proof and so now you're trying to minimize to one state.

When $1 trillion is on the line and billionaires have money to burn believe me more than one state can be affected. Six states is nothing with that kind of money.

[Self Esteem]

158. I don't see any proof.

The arguments I'm reading are literally no different than the Trump ones from 2020, especially the fact Biden won 81 million votes.

HOW COULD JOE BIDEN WIN SO MANY VOTES WHEN NO ONE WAS ENTHUSED ABOUT HIM?

[live love laugh]

164. LOL so NO proof but you try to minimize the impact to one state.

[travelingthrulife]

8. I am more amazed by the number of people who think they wouldn't.

I suspect we just don't know the tech yet.

[live love laugh]

9. What makes you an expert on how easy it is to manipulate votes?

[LAS14]

19. A number of persuasive stories on (deep breath!!!) Main Stream Media! nt

[live love laugh]

47. Hilarious that you trust the same media that routinely trashes Democrats.

Or maybe not THAT amazing ….

[Mr. Sparkle]

10. they want an explanation for the 15 million who didnt vote

trump is a polarizing figure, so it cant be apathy. but yeah, its too soon to draw conclusions until we get more data.

[John1956PA]

23. In Pennsylvania, more voted in 2024 than in 2020.

Combined PA Votes for Biden & Trump in 2020: 6,835,903.
Combined PA Votes for Harris & Trump in 2024: 6,847,650 and counting.

[onenote]

187. When the final numbers are in, the number of votes in PA likely will be up by around 60K, well less than 1 %

That it is up at all is not surprising given the amount of attention and money spent there. But that gain in the number of votes cast is hugely offset by the decrease in the number of votes cast in other states that were not the focus of "swing state" attention. Take New York, where it is likely that the number of votes cast will be down by several hundred thousand compared to 2020.

[Zeitghost]

49. There is no explanation

That will explain something that is not true.

The 15M vote number has been tossed around here for the past few days and it's complete crap.

When all the votes are counted, it's going to be about 3M fewer than in 2020.

[brush]

73. Hmmmm? Despite the massive door knocking/canvassing effort of the Harris campaign...

you're saying there will be three million fewer votes?

[Zeitghost]

104. Thats the way it looks with the uncounted votes left

There are always door knocking efforts. I don't have any reason to believe that this year was any more productive than they have been in the past.

[brush]

107. IMO that seems doubtful because of all the increased canvassing. Something seem fishy.

I hope a great investigative reporter like Greg Palast gets on the case.

It's too late now to change the election results, and maybe even too late to save our democracy.

[Zeitghost]

126. What evidence do we have

That suggests there was more canvasing this year? Or that canvassing has a meaningful impact on the number of voters, relative to other factors?

The big issue here is apathy and fewer automatic mail in ballots going out.

[brush]

129. Are you serious? Busloads of canvassers from NY road to PA to canvass.

Californians did the same to AZ and NV. Seems you've never worked on a campaign. I have and done much canvassing. It works or campaigns wouldn't do it.

I still say something is fishy with those numbers.

[Zeitghost]

130. I've worked campaigns and am well aware

But that stuff happens every year. And vote totals go up and down.

[DiverDave]

154. Goddamned right its fishy

No way, NO FUCKING WAY, did that motherfucker win fair and square.
He knew it was in the bag when he said he had enough votes.
And dancing onstage at a 1/4 full rally?

It was stolen right in front of us.
I will go to my grave convinced that they stole another one.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

132. Its highly likely those 3 million votes, or whatever the total turns out to be

Are from non competitive states, both blue and red. At least I hope, because otherwise some reliably blue states just moved considerably to the right.

[soandso]

169. Harris is still 11 million down from Biden in 2020

Current:
70,379,243
https://decisiondeskhq.com/results/2024/General/President/

[onenote]

186. +1

[onenote]

185. Maybe you should wait until all the votes are counted before going tin foil?

At present, just under 147 million votes have been counted -- 70.26 million for Harris, 74.17 million for Trump, 2.46 million 3rd party. California's official website indicates there are still nearly 5 million votes still to be processed in that state alone. And AP/NBC estimate around another 5-6 million still to be counted in the rest of the country. Even if NBC's estimate is off by a factor of two, it means that when all is said and done, the total number of votes cast will be at least 155 million and could be even closer to the 158 million cast in 2020.

Is that enough of an "explanation" for the folks claiming that somehow the total number of votes cast is an indicator that the election was "rigged"? In 2012, there were around 2 million fewer votes cast than in 2008. The 20 million plus increase in the number of votes cast in 2020 was unprecedented. For example, from 2012 to 2016, even though 2012 was a "down" year compared to 2008, the total number of votes increased only by around 6.6 million votes. The number of votes cast in 2024 already is 10 million more than that total and is certain to be the second highest in history.

[Prairie Gates]

11. Shoulda been here 2004

It was the whole board.

[milestogo]

15. In 2004 it happened in Ohio and Kerry has acknowledged it.

[John1956PA]

32. I tend to believe the Blackbox Voting Conspiracy Theory regarding Ohio the 2004 Ohio vote.

However, at this point, there is no way to put it to rest one way or the other.

At least, the theory helped usher in the era of paper ballots which constitute a de facto paper trail which allows for a manual count of votes in a precinct in the event that the tally of the ballot scanners is suspect.

[Hope22]

48. People died because of it.......

[gab13by13]

57. The programmer who engineered

the transfer of votes died in a small plane crash on his way to DC to testify.

[BattleRow]

62. I remember that,now that u mention it

[Hope22]

74. That was such a crazy time!

We stood on the Statehouse steps in protest. While others Christmas shopped. maybe 200 people went back over and over to no avail. Was that the same year as the oddities with the black boxes, break insin Warren county BOE and more. Once you live through it you never forget it. I think the outcome was that SOS Blackwell had routed Ohio results through the RNC computer in Ky or Tn before sending them on. Carl Rove had his hand in there somewhere if I remember correctly. Another national nightmare.

[John1956PA]

93. I remember that. I think his name was something like McConnel. n/t

[CrispyQ]

85. Kerry has acknowledged it? That's the first I've ever heard that! -nt

[milestogo]

89. Yes, he did.

It was at a party with friends, not a public statement. He knew he had won the presidency and there was nothing he could do about it.

[Jamastiene]

25. We had reason.

We were robbed in 2000 and 2004. I remember in 2000, the busted up sidewalks in Florida where they sent handicapped voters to go cast their votes. The voter rolls that got scrubbed. Jeb Bush saying he would "deliver" Florida for W.

We have reason now too. There are a lot of people who voted by mail and their ballots haven't been counted, in several states. The bomb threats were very real too. How would they know which precincts were precincts where POC voted and to target those specifically?

To say there was no cheating by the Republican Party is to not know the Republican Party. They always cheat. If they get caught, they play dumb and get away with it.

The Republican Party has always cheated, including W running to SCOTUS to make them stop counting votes in Florida. This discussion board was founded on just how wrong that was.

[hannah]

72. They cheated in 2000

I was there voting on the infamous butterfly ballot. The punch card was so misaligned that I couldn’t tell if I was voting for Al Gore or the Communist Party. They let alot of people run for President on that ballot.Jewish people voted for racist Pat Buchanan without knowing they did. Then the Brooks Brothers protest, so fake
Trump said he saved Ron Desantis from losing his first election. He said he had to send the FBI in to stop the vote in Broward county because he was losing so bad. The Fbi under Trump opened an investigation
After the asshole Desantis was elected. Fbi dropped the charges against Andrew Gillum.

Stop saying this doesn’t happen.
We shouldn’t dwell on who is to blame, but how to form the resistance.
Maybe start on College campuses with a Democracy and Decency tour.

[Hope22]

78. Yes the 'Brooks brothers'

Many years later when those players, who the press went on about as if they were just concerned Floridians, tuned out to be Republicans from DC and had jobs as national republicans. Go figure. They stole it right in plain sight. It makes me wonder how any of us had the strength to live through Tuesday! It really has been living hell but no worries…more hell to come!

[Jamastiene]

143. I remember that.

Every single person in that picture turned out to be a Republican operative.

[Jamastiene]

144. I did not say it didn't happen.

I know it happened. I was here.

[Babajida]

200. I remember that

Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2024, 07:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Do you remember why in the end Bev Harris became a villain around here? I remember that happening but don't remember why.

[sarisataka]

12. I recall the comments post election 2016

I'm surprised there are not more CTs being put forth

[Dr. Strange]

18. Yeah, wasn't there a whole forum devoted to election conspiracies at one time?

[Hope22]

86. Way before Election Day TSF said the election would be rigged.

He got his people geared up for it. In fact he never stopped talking about it. If he hadn’t had the numbers I’m sure he would have attacked the Capitol then. It’s so funny that he knows it’s going to be rigged because he is the one going to rig it. He told everyone that this time too. He knew the fix was in. Why do we not believe him! The excuse is that the woman lost. We deserve the answers. If it pans out we will accept it. If you are old enough you will know that they are not all CT’s as you call them. . That term is a slam to people who want transparency and fairness in the election process. Anyone with a question gets that label.

[sarisataka]

95. If there was evidence, I would be on board

For example, if every swing state had Harris +2% and she lost all of them, I would be suspicious.

However the polls had her trailing in just about all seven, maybe tied in one or two. The response was "that's unpossible" and the laundry list of why polls are meaningless trotted out again.

Then, shockingly, we lose the swing states by about what the polls predicted. Response "someone cheated"

When the evidence does not match the result, there may be something there. But we repeated 2016 and ignored what we didn't want to see.

[Hope22]

110. I'm not concerned if you are on board or not!

I’ll wait to see, but thank you. I sure do wish you were on Kamala’s team. Sounds like they missed out!

[sarisataka]

112. If we were in World War Z,

I would be the tenth person- the one to look at "what if it is true"...

Before the election I said I believed Harris would need 80M votes to win.

[milestogo]

13. I'm amazed by your short memory and naivete.

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. Election fraud is a lazy answer to a complex question

That involves the reach of conservative media, social media, voter suppression, lack of voter engagement and critical thinking skills (a significant number of voters thought Biden was still on the ballot!), apathy, cynicism, exhaustion from COVID, inflation, etc.

Add to that the racism and misogyny soaked fascist propaganda masquerading as populism, and it’s the perfect recipe for the perfect storm.

[onenote]

188. +1

[kentuck]

16. I will go as far to say...

...that they would steal it if they had the opportunity or the means.

Does anyone dispute that?

[kwolf68]

29. THIS is an absolute fact

No doubt IF by some chance they had someone figure out a way to literally erase X number of votes for Harris in each district they absolutely would do it. Their desire to cheat is without question. I need to know HOW the hell it could have been done.

[tritsofme]

97. There are Democratic governors in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania

Not seeing much opportunity.

[onenote]

189. They couldn't control the Republican space lasers that changed votes.

Sarcasm.

[beaglelover]

20. Agree 100%. It's embarassing. We are supposed to be the smart ones.

[TomSlick]

21. Denial is the first stage of grief.

Give folks time.

[BattleRow]

60. Also when you realize you've been conned.

The more arrogant and entitled people feel,the harder it is to admit they've been outwitted.

Smart and smart ass are vastly different.

I can hear the wailing now,as the wheel comes round to those who thought they would be anointed and untouchable.

[TomSlick]

161. President Biden said the election was honest, fair, & transparent.

So is he an arrogant, entitled ass?

President Biden has better access to the facts than I. Absent compelling evidence - not just feelings or theories - I'm with Joe.

We should not emulate Trump and deny facts. As President Biden said

Setbacks are unavoidable, but giving up is unforgivable. Setbacks are unavoidable, but giving up is unforgivable. We all get knocked down, but the measure of our character, as my dad would say, is how quickly we get back up. Remember, a defeat does not mean we are defeated. We lost this battle.

It's time to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and start again.

[BattleRow]

165. I was referring to GOP acolytes and not so light,heavy weights.

[TomSlick]

166. Sorry. I'm not tracking.

Is President Biden correct? Was the election fair and transparent?

[BattleRow]

176. We all have opinions

I have reservations about it,personally

[BannonsLiver]

22. Agree

It’s moronic

[gab13by13]

26. I am not going to argue about the possibility

that elections are stolen when both the 2000 and 2004 elections were. What does it matter even when Republicans are caught it gets swept under the rug. I also believe that Oswald didn't kill JFK but what does it matter?

[SoCalDavidS]

30. Thank You For Your Continued Contributions

I find myself agreeing with what you post at least 80%+ of the time.

[dchill]

67. 90+ for me.

[brush]

27. You actually think trump won every swing state despite the massive canvassing effort...

the Harris campaign deployed?

I don't. We should know by now that if trump is talking he's lying, and if he's awake he and his campaign are cheating somewhere.

No way he won all the swing states legitimately...most with Dem govs and legislative majorities.

[intheflow]

53. Not to mention every accusation is an admission, a projection.

He was running around crying about the election being rigged an suddenly, against reason and what our own eyes saw in rally attendance and Harris enthusiasm, what we've watched in horror as women die from abortion bans, the SCOTUS immunity ruling, his response to COVID, and his entire first presidency including the J6 insurrection. Democratic voter registration broke records yet 12 million fewer people voted. Exit interviews as reported in the WaPo indicated that voters liked Harris better but still voted for Trump. So I mean, generally, if it looks and walks like a duck...

[SoCalDavidS]

28. I Will Repeat What Others Have Said On This Thread

If they knew they HAD TO cheat in order to win, and they KNEW they could get away with it, undetected, they 100% WOULD.

IT'S WHO THEY FUCKING ARE!

[mathematic]

31. Yeah Queens moved 21 points to trump because of stolen votes. Fucking eyeroll.

Arguably the most diverse area of the country and most non-white urban area outside of Hawaii moves a mind-breaking 21 points to Trump and we still have people refusing to do soul searching.

[Native]

33. me too. but i also understand. who wants to believe it wasn't rigged?

[snot]

34. Thank you.

.

[lapfog_1]

35. I started out in college as a "black hat" cyber hacker

I got caught. Not because someone looked at my black hat group's hacks ( around 5 of us ) but because we were young and bragging rights were what we wanted. We didn't do anything malicious... just pranks. In that time and in that place, instead of facing criminal charges or even being kicked out of college... we were offered JOBS. As white hats. Please fix our computer operating systems to be more secure they said.

So, after a lecture by the dean... we went to work and fixed the numerous security problems we found.

Since then I have been a computer expert for decades. I was on the government team that found and traced the "Morris worm". After the security officer for all of NASA went to a "black hat / white hat conference" and bragged about how secure NASA was... and the subsequent hacking of NASA... they came to me to run NASA cyber security for a year.

Want to BET MONEY that given resources and time, I couldn't create a cyber attack team to flip the votes in a thousand different counties, each with their own security arrangements for their voting machines... and do so without leaving a single trace? I know I can. I know there are smarter hackers than me who can. The big thing is the scope of the people needed to bypass security on a 1000 different systems ( but there really are not 1000 different systems ) and keep quiet about having done so. The only way to prevent such hackers is for open elections where every vote is NOT SECRET and counted by hand. Multiple times... and crosschecked all the way to the state wide electing summary. and public. with honest press reporting every step of the way.

Elon with his billions, and Putin can do it if motivated.

I had a team of Russian programmers working for me in the past. Very talented. At least one or two were known ex-KGB. They could easily pull it off if Putin directed them to do it... and probably keep quiet about having done it.

So don't "explain" how it could never happen.

I don't have evidence that it did happen, I just know it COULD happen.

I keep looking at the polling data. Sure some of the polls could be off... but they keep being off... and not by a margin of error numbers... waaay off. Polling is based on statistical samples... and we all remember what Mark Twain said about statistics. But there is a nagging doubt. mostly based on what we did as a nation on Tuesday... Trump, a vulgar person who lies like most of us breaths... and who is racist and misogynist to the core, won the popular vote? First time on 20 years that any Republican won the nation wide popular vote... AFTER he said everything that he said in the campaign... after the insurrection, after the likely treason, the illegal payoffs to porn stars and cheating on his wife, after the racist jokes that he and his surrogates made, really got more black men to vote for him, got even a single vote from women? We all woke up Wednesday feeling like we just got mugged on the way home Tuesday... shocked... and now you want so quickly to "move on" to dictatorship... so sad about the Ukraine people about to either die or be enslaved again. So sad about the rights being taken from Americans... and all because we want to pay less for eggs at the grocery store ( after a bird flu epidemic killed millions of chickens in the US and the ignorant voters can't understand that this actually happens?? ).

I find it all a bit hard to believe.

[LAS14]

41. With the resources and time required, you don't think this would be spotted before completion?

Want to BET MONEY that given resources and time, I couldn't create a cyber attack team to flip the votes in a thousand different counties, each with their own security arrangements for their voting machines...

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that people we trusted when they said Biden didn't steal the election are the same people who are now saying Trump didn't steel the election.

[lapfog_1]

46. nope

do you know any Russian hackers? I do.

Not saying the DID pull it off... but they COULD.

I know I could do it to a single polling place and never ever leave a trace. Forensics depend on echoes of data being left behind... and yet there are ways to easily delete and leave no trace. I actually have 4 patents on this very topic ( trying to make sure there is something left behind ), which a company paid my company $12 million to acquire. that technology is never made it into a single product on the market... The company that bought my patents uses them to sue others that eventually discover the same things I discovered. They have made 100s of millions by doing so.

[orangecrush]

71. BEST FUCKING POST

In the history of this website.

[LeftInTX]

121. You have to physically manipulate each machine

They are not connected. There is no network.

That was why Fox News was sued by the voting machine company. Fox spread these CT. Fox lost.

[lapfog_1]

162. reread what I posted

I never ever mentioned the internet. I said if I had the time and the resources. resources here means people... either install the hack at the voting machine manufacturing site or at the polling location. Maybe every machine, maybe not. Make sure that the machine passes any audit... or inspection. Make sure after the hack is complete and the final audit happens that the machine removes all trace of a hack... all on it's own. Or leave it in for next time you need it. You don't need to even have access to the machine ever again... and you certainly do NOT flip every vote... only enough to change the outcome... and to be statistically within the realm of possibility. It has to subtle. And leave no traces. Again... you would need a large team of hackers... you might need to even insert themselves to pass background checks into the software companies that create the machines. It might take years. Or not. pretty sure you could install the hack at the voting time using random people that have a drivers license and are registered US citizens.

[LeftInTX]

163. We have about 5,000 voting machines in our county

There are checks and balances. We know how many show up. How many undervotes. How many showed up and didn't vote. How many forgot to insert their ballots etc etc.

[lapfog_1]

170. and how many different operating systems run on those machines

what about the bios...

any firmware updates?

How exactly did the the mistaken update by CrowdStrike take down hundreds of thousands of Windows based systems recently.

Yes, those updates came over the internet. But for 5000 machines and updates via USB key or whatever they use... the internet isn't needed.

[LeftInTX]

171. You know this is the GOP CT. I have sit with both teams

I was in our election integrity committee. The GOP wanted to disassemble machines and wanted source code.

Have a good evening. Or better yet, join your party's election integrity team and have fun!

[lapfog_1]

172. I have worked at very secure sites

the systems they use are behind 1/4" thick copper plates on all 6 sides. Even the power lines that enter those "tempest" rooms are routed through electrical isolation, networking? LOL surely you jest! The machines do not even have USB ports. Forget about trying to hide a USB key in or out. You go through a man trap.. marine guard at the first door... checks you in with eye scans and fingerprints.. you go into another room that has two marines behind bullet proof glass. this time they ask you to answer a series of questions... they have a gun port into your enclosure. Finally you get access to the machine room. The system inside runs MLS on Secure Linux ( a special version of Linux for Secure sites ). this gets you access to the project you are working on inside... and only that data. And even then they are paranoid about what you ( as admin ) might get access to. This is Eric Snowden territory... all created because of Snowden.

These are actual secure computers. The source code is checked and rechecked. Only US citizens are allowed to create the software that runs... most have security clearances.

Our voting machines are a joke compared to these. Only protected from rudimentary hacks.

Could we have cheated in 2020? Sure. Did we? I have no evidence. All I know is that it is possible. And one other thing. Projection is very strong in the GOP. in MAGA. Whatever they have accused us of doing, it is because they either do it themselves or wish they had done it or they justify doing it because they THINK we did it.

And they have smarter people that can do what I am talking about... people that work for Putin and have had years now to perfect their hacks... if they did it. Again, I have zero evidence that anything happen. Maybe a lot of Latino men and black men think that having a woman president is the worst thing... there was an interview of a latino family... illegals that became citizens with Reagan's amnesty program... and they voted for Trump because "now the illegals are criminals" ( I suspect they only watch Faux ). I guess they really don't see the irony in this ( they were criminals when they entered the USA 40 years ago ). but I keep coming back to 2 facts - DJT is a horrible person that did not grow his base at all, and the polls, even by reputable pollsters, were off by 2X or 3X the margin of errors in their polls.

[LeftInTX]

173. Vanesa Guillen's family voted for Trump

The soldier who went missing at Ft Hood under Trump's watch.
There are tons of Republican Latinos snd that is an old fact. Why do you think Texas is perpetually red? I have their voting histories and I talk to them. Their histories are in VAN. About 40% of them are GOP.

The Rio Grande Valley went red. They are very anti abortion there. Always have been. Try dealing with these types face to face and they will tell you who they are, Trump train and all.

[relayerbob]

131. Add to that ...

Peter Thiel is Vance's patron, as well as Musk's buddy, *and* Palantir is heavily in the government systems security business. And coincidentally, a bunch of "harmless" Russian bomb threats and Trump's "little secret".

Plenty of room for doubt. Plenty of room for opportunity.

As you say, whether it *did* happen, doesn't change that fact that it *could* happen. And it should be investigated, at the very least.

But, yeah, let's just not even investigate because we don't want to look like Q-nuts and Trumpers and hand the government over to the coup Confederate insurrectionists on a silver platter.

[Jamastiene]

146. Thank you.

You stated the case for looking into it perfectly. I can't believe people don't even want to look into it.

[electric_blue68]

207. With all your experience, and cred have you contacted gov't officials? Your Reps, or Senators IF they're Democrats, or.

contact Dem Senators, Reps in relevant committeees. E-mailed the WH. Contacted old colleges w gov't connections. Etc, etc


On a different note - you if you like Science Fiction w computer geniuses, nefarious doings, and cyber heroes pushing back etc
you might enjoy Person of Interest - it's got all this, and more!

[lapfog_1]

208. I prefer the older SciFi

but in particular, as it relates to computer hacks and viruses, I recommend John Brunner.

"Stand on Zanzibar" - 1968
"The Sheep Look Up" - 1972
"The Shockwave Rider" - 1975

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brunner_(author)

amazing what he predicted 50 years ago, even before I was in high school. in 1975 I started working on the Arpanet, specifically on the IMP or Internet Messaging Protocol translator while in college. Long before it became TCP/IP and, via Al Gore's legislation in the late 80s, the Internet we both love and hate today. It might have been a better idea to have the Internet to remain a research network for universities and government research centers, free of commercial presence. No Elon Musk. No jeff Bezos, and all the rest.

But I will take a look at your book.

[electric_blue68]

209. I've heard of him, and those books. It's a TV show, not a book...

I'm glad the Internet as we know it happened. Like just about any human invention it's got it's positives, and negatives.

I learned alot, have had a lot of fun, seen amazing things, meet wonderful people etc

How interesting you were involved waaaay back then. I'd heard about pre-GUI message boards through my Sci-Fi fandom.

[lapfog_1]

210. I sold my sister's wine collection back in 1989

in one of the first commercial transactions on the "internet". Held an auction on rec.wine bulletin board. Sold it in lots of 12 cases ( her husband was a big collector and they got divorced ). Researched by hand every case in Wine Spectator. did the bidding via email and more posts on the bulletin board to update the latest high bid. All by hand. Kept thinking to my self that I could write the software to automate it all ( but this was prior to html and the web ). but I sold all her wine ( and people complained about to me about using the internet for commercial purposes but 100s of others said this was a great thing to do )...

1989 or 1990.

[Mosby]

36. I'm not.

Nt

[kentuck]

37. I don't think it is wise to discount even the possibility.

They have had four years to get it right. Also, I remember when Trump said that he "had all the votes he needed". What was that about?

And the polls that showed Kamala ahead in almost all the battleground states and Iowa. What changed?

[Blue Owl]

38. Donald Trump would never cheat.

[TBF]

39. Could be a factor - but it wouldn't be enough to explain it all

I've been reading all the different theories out there. That's just one of them. I think the theory about information bubbles had a lot of weight. I also think there's still a lot of old-fashioned sexism and racism out there. So, maybe not just one theory but a combination.

[kellytore]

40. Totally agree!

[Metaphorical]

42. Of course they gamed the system

I'm hearing a lot of recriminations and finger pointing right now, but let's be perfectly blunt:

* Dominion is owned by the Republicans
* Audits are possible, but frankly they aren't going to happen
* Social media continues to be unregulated in any meaningful wy
* The media all but shut down coverage of Trump's negative issues, while throwing everything they could at Kamala Harris.
* Trillions were at stake
* Bomb scares in PA and GA.
* Unlimited dark money
* Russian money going through backchannels.

If there wasn't a conspiracy, then someone was asleep at the switch at the RNC.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

80. "Dominion owned by Republicans"? Evidence of that? Lay it out right here.

Republicans? That must be why Dominion sued Republicans for big money and Republicans paid Dominion big money.

I assume you are not just making up the assertion and will very quickly show your evidence. But it's possible you don't have any.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

199. Still waiting for evidence on your main (first) point. This might help you

Republicans in court defending themselves from suits by Dominion

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143336868

[johnnyfins]

43. THEY STOLE IT

Bury your head in the sand all you want and blame fellow dems for not turning out.

Hope it makes you feel better.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

75. SHOUTING doesn't make it more true. Hope it makes you feel better even when there is NO evidence. . . . . nt

[tritsofme]

101. Holy projection, Batman!

Strange message while embracing some goofy conspiracy theory with zero evidence.

[SCantiGOP]

197. How did "they" steal it

In states wheres Democrats controlled the state government and all of the election processes?
That is the same question I had for MAGA when Trump said Georgia had been stolen in 2020 even though the Rs controlled the whole election.

[Martin68]

44. It's a state of denial, pure and simple. Denial is why led a lot of MAGAts to believe the lasts election was stolen.

It is a common reaction to an unexpected and traumatic turn of events. Some people never escape it. The 7 stages of grief are the classic progression (if progress is made) starting with shock, leading through denial, anger, bargaining, depression, testing, and, finally, acceptance. Only when the reality is accepted can one start working towards a better future.

[Xoan]

51. Putin has learned a lot in 4 yrs.

[Blue Full Moon]

55. Vast Right Wing Conspiracy

[markodochartaigh]

64. And yet,

it has proved to be true that there absolutely was a vast right-wing conspiracy to trash Hillary. From the oligarchs to the news media to the pastors, etc.

[Blue Full Moon]

106. More than trashing

[ruet]

56. Many Call DU an Echo Chamber.

It's more like a denial chamber. Deny, deny, deny, deny any measure of bad news for the Dems.

[live love laugh]

117. Name calling won't make troublesome things disappear. 🫠

[Jit423]

58. It is not necessarily a conspiracy theory but the numbers give rise to some critical thinking.

Trump won with 4 million fewer votes than in 2020 after he incited and insurrection, was indicted on over 30 felonies and found guilty of sexual ly attacking a woman, removing, hoarding and failing to return top security documents to the government, spewing the most obscene racist, sexist, homophobic messages ever by a Presidential candidate? I say, that is plenty room for suspicion.

[LeftInTX]

127. All during early voting, the Republican area

of the county had record lines and record check ins. The Blue areas had no lines and very low numbers. The Democratic Party's VAN runs on check ins, not whether the vote was counted. When I do my data, I will not be surprised if some precincts have 20% turnout and GOP areas have 80%.

We had 51 early voting sites.

We were worried during early voting because our Dem areas were falling behind the GOP.

[whathehell]

59. I'm a little amazed at those who, because of

some crazed RW conspiracies, think conspiracies, almost by definition, do not exist!

[southmost]

61. more important.. it wouldnt be worth it going

down that rabbit hole anyways

[Hope22]

63. If there are states that were in play with many many ballots marked all Dems and one red X for TSF

Then I think it should be looked into. How many states did this happen in? Were they only states that were in play or was it a peculiar voting trend. It’s really pretty easy to find out. It certainly won’t be the first time that ballots were recounted with observers present! If we have ballots recorded yes for reproductive rights and yes for T that is very sketchy to say the least. It’s not being a poor sport to verify true and fair elections. Yes it will cost money but nothing compared to the reaming we are preparing for. If this happened only in battleground states it deserves a look. Check the paper receipt that is why they are there.

[gab13by13]

65. Magats are adding insult to injury

they are now falsely claiming that the only places that Kamala won were places that didn't have voter ID.

[markodochartaigh]

66. I think that it is unlikely that this election was stolen.

But I also think that anyone who doesn't believe that our oiligarchs conspire behind closed doors to run our society to their own preferences and benefit is a fool. A sad and dangerous fool.

[BlueTsunami2018]

68. This is precisely why they did it all that time.

So that when they actually turn around and steal it, which they have done before, we look like the same kooks they are.

It’s never been stolen, it’s always stolen.

What’s the truth? No one knows.

[orangecrush]

69. Maybe it's all the voter suppression laws

They have been passing and pushing?

Gee, it's almost as if they'd do anything to keep Democratic votes from being cast or counted!

[LudwigPastorius]

70. I'm not surprised.

Many here that believed there was going to be a "blue tidal wave", despite the pre-election polls.

Now, they've got to have a reason that didn't happen.

Plus, it's more comforting for us to think that there was some kind of conspiracy, rather than admit that a vast number of Americans want a guy in power who would employ the military to round us up and dispose of us.

[Ms. Toad]

76. It was our story before they borrowed it.

For the last four years, Republicans have been quoting, verbatim, the voting machine conspiracy theories we created in the Bush years. But now that we've lost again, we want them back.

I've always found it amusing how quickly our own conspiracy theories became something for us to ridicule when it was the other side promoting them.

[LilElf70]

79. The real question is

Why did the dems only show up 69 million times in 2024, compared to 81 million times in 2020? Without this answer, everyone is guessing why trump won, including they cheated, or it was rigged.

And of course if Trump had never entered the picture years ago, the word rigged would have never been brought up.

Trump is the rotten banana in the hand of bananas. The stench is quite telling.

[Cirsium]

81. Really?

There is no excuse or being ignorant of or ignoring the massive ongoing voter suppression efforts by the Republicans. That has been enabled by smearing the people who bring this to our attention and call for action by labeling them "conspiracy theorists."

Millions of voters were purged from the rolls, overwhelmingly in African American districts. Unknown numbers of ballots are declared invalid and tossed, again overwhelmingly in African American districts. Absurdly long lines in those districts is another form of voter suppression. Republicans do not even bother to make what they are doing a secret!

Over 40% of the population in Mississippi is AA, yet the most extreme racist right wing politicians consistently get elected there. That is not an anomaly, it represents a pattern that holds across the nation. But we are to believe that Republicans are not stealing elections?

[B.See]

92. Exactly. It may

not have been 'stolen' in the manner many speak of. But via maga right wing effort to disenfranchise voters via voter purges (Abbott removed over 1 million from Texas alone - some on sound reasons, but others like the reported 65,000 who didn't "respond to a notice of examination" ).

Add to that, maga laws enacted in some states that allowed for an individual to challenge the eligibility of tens of thousands of voters, and the numerous other maga moves and manipulations (like efforts to undermine and intimidate voter registration groups) that I've written about (with linked sources) herein.

[Cirsium]

140. Sound reasons?

Good post. I will make one point, with your kind indulgence. I do not mean it to be a criticism of your post in any way.

There are never any legitimate reasons to purge voter rolls. A person dies? So what? Zombies don't vote. A person moves? So what? Do we really imagine that people are running around voting in more than one location at all, let alone in any kind of numbers that would affect the outcome of an election without getting noticed? People are criminals? So what? People are sentenced in a court of law for any crimes for which they are convicted. Punishing them again by denying them their right to vote is not legitimate. People are undocumented immigrants? That is not happening and is extremely unlikely to ever happen, and again most certainly not in any kind of numbers that would affect the outcome of an election without it getting noticed.

Yes, I have seen your posts about voter suppression. Much appreciated. Thank you.

[stillcool]

82. jeeze, I guess cyber-security isn't really a thing?

[LiberalArkie]

83. Ahh, so you are of the viewpoint that the voting tabulator totaled should not be verified against the paper ballots?

[Vinca]

88. So recounts are just for Republicans? Sorry, but there's something sketchy about this election when

you compare the response to Harris in the last 3 months to Trump. That was Obama 2008 level excitement vs. reheated hash.

[AllyCat]

90. Truly, I think most of it is we live with a bunch of $hitty

People. But it is weird how Dems are winning and abortion rights measures passing…and then they turn around and vote for the con man.

[LAS14]

136. They bought his late campaign rhetoric about let the states do it. He had a big advantage...

... in that he could say anything he damn well pleased, depending on the mood of his followers.

[North Coast Lawyer]

94. Mushy Thinking

Mushy thinking by way too many Americans is how we got here. We need to totally avoid mushy thinking on our side.

[LAS14]

135. That is so, so true! I've struggled around trying to describe...

.... the problem. Ignorant of current events, ignorant of authoritarianism, etc. But mushy thinking really does it for me. It's the direct opposite of common sense.

[TNNurse]

96. I agree, but it easier to accept that

than there are that many really awful people in our country.

[Elessar Zappa]

98. Agree.

I think posts suggesting election fraud should be either moved to the creative speculation group or deleted by juries as kooky content. It’s embarrassing when we’re acting like the Republican sore losers of 2020.

[LAS14]

134. Thanks for this! I forgot about "no kooky content" as a forum rule. nt

[kerry-is-my-prez]

99. It won't do any good - Harris, etc already conceded. Our time needs to be better spent.

We are in an emergency situation and need to use all of our energy towards electing Dems and helping people who are targets of Trumpsters like black children, Haitians, women of childbirth age,etc. I was going to say Latinos - but a lot of them will have karma put onto them. I will feel bad for the ones who didn’t vote for Trump. The Cubans here in Florida can suck it. This isn’t the first election they’ve screwed with.

[William769]

100. Thank you.

[Bitbit]

102. I admit, the numbers seem out of whack to me.

A Republican hasn’t won the popular vote in 20 years. (Bush 04)
You have to go back 16 years for a Democrat to get 69 million votes and that was the most ever then. (Obama 08)
Kamala only topped Hillary by 4 million 8 years. apart.
Trump got 10 million more in the same 4/8 years.
Trump had close to the same amount of votes in 20’ and 24’.
Biden had 81 million+ in 20’ and Kamala gets 69 million 4 years later.
There’s 6 million less registered voters this cycle.
158.5 million voted in 2020
Appx 145 million people voted in 2024.
Normally, the overall vote increases every cycle.
(Since 1992)
Clinton’s 2nd (1996) term was a lower turnout. Otherwise, always higher.
These are facts with rounded numbers.
The rumor mill says 14 million Democratic votes are missing. I DID SAY RUMOR MILL ON THIS ONE.
So, I wonder…..

[gab13by13]

105. I look at a state like N. Carolina

Democrats kicked ass down ballot - Governor, Lt. Governor, busted up the super majority, Attorney General.

Why did all of those Magats only vote for TSF? I thought they hated Democrats?

[MaeScott]

113. Well they did. That's why Orangehead said he had all the votes he needed, won't have to vote after this...

…because they have perfected the art of the steal. And will tweak how it was done to repeat it. Leon is all in this.
And don’t tell me they wouldn’t because they’ve done it before, and probably more times than we know. Moscow Mitch didn’t deep six those election reform bills for nothing. Our election system is compromised. Period.

[oasis]

122. Moscow Mitch is one of the most reprehensible

persons to ever walk and breathe on planet Earth.

[malthaussen]

115. Denial is more than just a river in Egypt. n/t

[RevBrotherThomas]

116. Do I think there was shady/illegal influence of voters' opinions...

...from foreign & domestic influencers? Absolutely I do. There is plenty of evidence for that; none of it actionable in any way that would force a recount or revote, but it is there.

Do I believe there was fraud of actual post-vote counting or scrubbing or manipulation on any kind of scale that could have influenced the outcome of any of the swing states' totals? No I do not.

The ugly truth is Donald Trump is the candidate who procured the most votes, popular & electoral college. This is the choice of the majority of people who voted.

THIS is America. And it ain't pretty.

[beemerphill]

118. I could not agree more.

When there were calls of rigged elections after Biden won we all knew that they were false. There were too many polling places with too many workers to ever pull off a major fix. That many people could NEVER keep quiet about an enterprise of that size and scope. The same is still true. There are some ways to cheat a bit here and there, but none of them would go unnoticed. And that many people would surly have a couple of big mouths to brag about it.
The results are in. We can live with it, or we can live with it and make up lame conspiracy theories. Either way, we have Trump for the next four years.
Spreading false rumors is a waste of time and counterproductive.

[LAS14]

133. Well stated. nt

[Ferrets are Cool]

119. Well, we are free to think what we want

As you are. At least for now.

[marcopolo63]

120. Bbbbbbuuuttttt she had so many lawyers...

Were the Harris campaign lawyers only geared up to fight against Trump if Harris won the election?

I mean the voting tabulation systems are software that can be manipulated. Some simple audits might uncover fraud. And how many Election commissions are MAGA controlled, and willing and capable to help Cheato-Benito to win?

It seems like if Harris isn’t willing to fight this - why would anyone else?

[pnwmom]

123. They were announcing the wins with millions of votes still uncounted,

even claiming a national vote count in Trump's favor.

We saw how the vote count changed in 2020 over the first week.We know that in 2020 there were millions of rejected provisional votes. Why should we have been treating Tuesdays numbers as final?

[malaise]

125. I don't know why what happened happened but I am amazed

That any DUer would rule it out.
Time is on my side. I can wait for the answers

[Jamastiene]

147. So true.

This site was founded over the cheating done in the 2000 election. Republicans cheat every election. We know that. I know they do here in NC. Never trust a Republican not to cheat.

[malaise]

149. Precisely

I can wait but I sure won’t rule that out.

[Blue Owl]

128. I think they tried in 2020 but underestimated the numbers

This time, they had a better handle on the Biden numbers and may have been able to work things to their favor. Otherwise why would tRump have had that specific number of “11,750 votes” or whatever it was he was fuming about — that is practically an admission of cheating when you say that kind of shit

[SweetieD]

177. I do remember that in 2020. Yes Biden won. But there were still weird areas where Trump way overperformed that does not

make sense. I really think they were doing it then. They just didn't estimate how many people would actually vote for Biden.

That is why Trump was so adamant about "fraud" and the election was stolen in 2020, Because he likely knew what fake vote amounts he was supposed to get.

[live love laugh]

205. They perfected the steal this time around.

[Silent Type]

142. Yet we threw a fit about hand counting the number of ballots, without regard to vote tabulation.

[IbogaProject]

153. You missed the bomb threats at blue swing precincts?

By Kevin Collier, Tyler Kingkade and Tom Winter
Bomb threats sent to polling places and ballot-counting locations in at least five battleground states across the U.S. Tuesday targeted mostly Democratic counties, an NBC News analysis has found.

The full extent of who received the bomb threats is not clear. None are believed to have been deemed credible. NBC News compiled a list of 67 locations in 19 counties, based on local news reports and state and local election officials’ statements, all of which appear to have received similar threats. Of the 67 locations, 56 were in 11 counties that voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 election, including the eight most populated. Those high-population Democratic counties include voting locations for Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Detroit, Michigan; Phoenix, Arizona; Atlanta, Georgia; and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/election-day-bomb-threats-overwhelmingly-targeted-democrat-leaning-rcna179006

What is confusing about crucial precints getting briefly emptied out? There was also a issues at crucial tabulation locations. https://www.cip.uw.edu/2024/11/05/election-day-bomb-threats-tabulator-irregularities/

But yes using campaign staff from our loosing 2016 campaign and an ever worsening economic divide coupled w poorly educated low information voters. Either way our millionaire lost and the wealthy will ride this out just fine.

[LAS14]

168. I don't see that ending up throwing the election. Do you really? Really?? nt

[Dem4life1234]

156. I will not write it off

[tenderfoot]

159. Yes our resident right wingers are certainly having a lot of fun with all this.

eom

[sleroy49]

160. What's good for the goose ...

is good for the gander. There were conspiracy theories after 2016, too. They died down pretty quickly as I'm sure these will. Unlike Trump and his sycophants, Democrat leaders aren't calling for civil war and have done what is necessary to help ensure democracy survives.

[Quixote1818]

167. Zero % chance Trump would gain in blue and red safe states if it was stolen.

Which Trump did.

[garybeck]

174. Sorry but you obviously dont

Understand voting technology

Some of us here have been learning about the voting machines and optical scanners for many years

The truth is, it is feasible to infect the optical scanner machines with a virus that miscounts the votes. That is a fact. There are many computer security scientists who have sounded the alarm about this. You should not attack people for their understanding of this problem. The fact that Biden won last election does not change anything about the situation concerning our vote counting process and how it is vulnerable to attacks.

[LAS14]

193. As I understand it, none of these machines are connected to the internet. Sure, you can...

... manipulate anything if you can gets your hands on it. Imagine the scope of getting that many hands on local machines and keeping that many people quiet about it.

Anyway, while I can't recite them all, I invite you to look at the reasons given for the 2020 election not being stolen and apply them to the 2024 election.

[garybeck]

211. valid question. here is your answer

they don't need the internet
all the memory cards are removed from every machine before every election and they are programmed in a central location.
it would only take ONE memory card to be infected and it could transmit the virus to all the other memory cards.

believe me. we've looked at all of this. it can be done. but don't take my word for it. these are the people who conducted a study and report that concluded our election system is vulnerable to attack:



their conclusion as stated in the report that was commissioned by the Brennan Institution:

[LAS14]

212. Heres a really interesting conclusion by this 2005 commission.

"The most troubling vulnerabilities of each system can be substantially remedied if proper countermeasures are implemented at the state and local level."

Do you have good reason to think their findings of 19 years ago were totally ignored?

[SweetieD]

175. I believe there was massive fraud. Just based on what Trump and his

surrogates have said themselves.

Biden never said in 2020 "You don't have to vote for me" "I have enough votes".

Rogan said that Elon told him he knew the results for the battleground states 4 hours before they were announced due to a special "app" that Elon had.


I don't just think it was stolen, I know it was.

However, I'm not going to storm the capital or stress about it. It is unlikely anyone in the party will challenge anything because the down vote races seemed to accurately reflect polling in most places.

[obamanut2012]

183. I hadn't heard that thing about Rogan

Wow.

[gemini_liberal]

179. I get worried about conspiratorial thinking

It's very easy to slip into when you feel emotionally vulnerable or powerless, which a lot of us do right now. And it's not a healthy road to go down, as you can easily slip further down a rabbit hole that can lead to your perception of reality being warped and adopting all kinds of problematic beliefs. I just think of the people who were once on our side back in the early 2000s who bought into conspiracies about 9/11 or whatever, who are now so far down the rabbit hole that they're embracing fascists and joined the people who they used to hate.

It sucks but it's better to rip the band-aid off and face reality for how it is. It's the only way you can adapt and progress.

(Note: obviously there are real anti-democratic conspiracies, with local officials purging rolls, suppressing votes etc. I am not referring to them, I am referring to the grand stuff like the idea that there was a successful secret nationwide effort to rig the vote or miscount it.)

[berksdem]

182. Exactly

And this is why the party needs to take a long look in the mirror. We need to start over. We lost. Get over it, regroup and get motivated.

We need to start today.

[bigtree]

184. I'm amazed a people who apparently dismiss the repeated warnings before the election

...and just assume now eveything's fine.

Recounts aren't conspiracies, they are a legal measure to ensure accuracy in close elections.

[Iris]

190. It is disturbing. I hope it's temporary. I'm focused on what actions

I can take to make my own community better and it would be great to get ideas about that here.

For now, though, I think I'll need to step away for my own sanity.

[LAS14]

195. And now you're choosing to believe something he says? nt

[LAS14]

196. Let's hear it, then, for Trump's election deniers... Sarcasm nt

[onenote]

198. i'd like to know why Slotkin, Baldwin, Rosen, Gallego, and Stein won

I mean, if the repubs were so adept at manipulating the vote in the swing states, how did the Democrat in almost all of those states still win?

[live love laugh]

206. The target is the presidency. The down ballot results are a tell.

[yaesu]

202. it was either jewish space lasers

or a criminally stupid electorate. I'm thinking the latter,

[CROW50]

204. MANIPULATING THE VOTE

"It's no easier to manipulate the 10s of thousands of individual polling places now than it was when Biden was elected. Come on folks!!!!”

Election fraud does not require manipulation of 10’s of thousands of individual polling places across the county. As Stephen Spoonamore who was involved in the 2004 Bush/Kerry Ohio debacle has meticulously explained, it only requires exploiting weaknesses in the central tabulators at the county level or even the finals one at the state level in key swing states whose centralized election apparatus is controlled by the GOP. Election voting technology in this country is fundamentally flawed, weak and ripe for exploitation by skilled actors and it could be done in a manner that would be impossible to detect afterwards. There are several videos available with Spoonamaker going into detail of how it likely happened in the 2004 election as well as others. This guy has deep bonafides based on many years as a network engineer for international banking and governments, including the US military and State Department.

There are numerous videos on youtube done 2005 - 2008 where he discussed the networks involved with voting and tabulation of votes. At the time of those interviews he stated he had been a registered republican his entire life. I have no idea whether he still is. However, another poster on DU shared a copy of a duty to warn letter that Spoonamore sent to Governor Shapiro in PA this past Thursday 11/07 regarding his concerns about apparent anomalies in some PA counties. So, he’s still around, concerned and watching.

From Wikipedia.

"Stephen Spoonamore is a recognized expert in the field of electronic data security and digital network architecture who, in September 2008, agreed to serve as an expert witness for the plaintiffs in the Ohio vote-rigging lawsuit, King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association et al v. J. Kenneth Blackwell et al , before the United States District Court in Columbus, Ohio. Spoonamore served as the Chief Executive Officer and/or Chief Technology Officer of companies engaged in the design and development of digital systems, including CPR Group Inc., Cybrinth LLC, DuosTech Inc., SWN Communications, FreePlay Inc. and GSP Inc.

Spoonamore has designed or consulted on secure elements of digital systems for MasterCard, American Express, Chubb Insurance, Bloomberg, Boeing, NBC-GE, NewsCorp, the U.S. Department of Energy, the U.S. Navy, The U.S. Department of State and other government agencies”

The idea that it is not possible to fraudulently intervene in vote counting in the USA is likely absurd. As Spoonamore explains there is no shortage of people with the skill set required to make this happen and, if connected to people with the motivation, it could be undetectable after the fact. 20 years has elapsed since 2004 and, if anything, bad actors have had plenty of time to learn and be smarter. As for motivation, the history of dirty tricks associated with the GOP around elections going back until at least 1968, indicates no lack of scruples when it comes to trying to manipulate the outcome of elections. Nixon’s admin illegally trying to undermine the Paris peace talks during the Vietnam war. LBJ had Nixon’s people on tape and called it treason. He refused to reveal it to the public ahead of the 1968 election purportedly to protect CIA sources for spying on an ally and to protect the american people. The we have the Iran Contra / Hostages affair in the 1980 election, Bush/Gore in 2000 and on and on.

I have no idea whether the vote was manipulated in this last election, but I would not be surprised at all if it was. There is absolutely no question in my mind that the GOP would do it if they could put it in place. To say it could not be done is patently absurd. Unfortunately, I have no idea what could be done to stop it short of the type of the audits Spoonamore is calling for. And, for a host of reasons, there are likely deep institutional and political roadblocks preventing this from happening. The GOP in general and DT in particular has long track record of gaslighting their opponents by accusing them of doing exactly what they are doing. They been so successful at beating the drum that Democrats would cheat, they’ve actually made Democrats sheepish about even discussing the idea that the Republicans are the ones manipulating the election. Brilliant tactic on their part. Of course, we don’t have proof that it did or didn’t happen, and that’s the problem. Without actionable evidence or someone from the inside copping to it, we’ve hit a dead end. No question mistakes were made by the campaign that cost our candidates votes. However, if they did steal it, they’ve gotten a twofer by having all of us engage in a circular firing squad of blame. Beyond that, for years the voters of this country have been blasted by a firehose of misinformation coming out of the rightwing media machine with fear as the primary criteria. Unfortunately, it works very well.

UPDATE: Apparently, Stephen Spoonamore ran for the Ohio House of Representatives in 2016 as an independent. He was endorsed by the UAW and Ohio Education Association. However, he lost.

[FBaggins]

214. Entirely incorrect

You can’t do squat with the centralized tabulation equipment because individual precincts report as well and the numbers have to add up. You really think that thousands of precincts would fail to notice when their county or state misreported their totals?

It’s also far from reality to claim that republicans control the swing state counting mechanisms - but even that is irrelevant because the red shift occured in almost every county across the country and was actually smaller in the swing states and there was no variation based on which party controlled the count. There’s no way that normal canvas/audit processes would miss a theft this large.

Trump’s “too big to rig” was always nonsense - but it works perfectly in reverse. We’ve had three elections this century that were close enough that control of a few counties could have made the difference… but this one was far to big to have been rigged.