General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm a little amazed at the number of DUers who are willing to join a "they stole it" conspiracy theory.
It's no easier to manipulate the 10s of thousands of individual polling places now than it was when Biden was elected. Come on folks!!!! Don't turn DU into a conspiracy cess pool.

Ponietz
(3,395 posts)Silent Type
(8,140 posts)The only difference is that we won't storm the Capitol or something similar. At least I hope we don't.
Irish_Dem
(63,371 posts)And continue to swallow the BS thrown at us.
gab13by13
(26,269 posts)believed Garland was doing something behind the scenes.
Does anyone do audits/inspections on voting machines after the election? Just asking.
I am not a fan of ES&S voting machines. There have been anomalies with those machines in the past regarding discrepancies between exit polls and actual vote count.
It gave me pause when TSF publicly declared he didn't need any votes.
It amazes me how many people do not understand how evil TSF and right wing oligarchs are.
I do agree there is no evidence that the election was stolen and even if there was like in 2004 when votes were routed from Ohio to a warehouse in Tennessee it just gets covered up.
Blue_Roses
(13,607 posts)what happened with the routed votes from Ohio to the warehouse in Tennessee?
gab13by13
(26,269 posts)but they nabbed the programmer who claims to have engineered the transfer of votes, but sadly he died in a small plane crash on his way to DC to testify.
Blue_Roses
(13,607 posts)I remember that story!! That guy was the one who did it??? I remember when his plane crashed. I was actually on DU that day. Lots of us thought it was very weird that it happened on a day he was supposed to testify or give a deposition.
I'm gonna Google it cause I forgot his name.
Thank-you!
biophile
(580 posts)stillcool
(33,141 posts)they do an automatic random recount/audit of a certain percentage of the vote. The last I enquired my state only does it for Presidential elections. It's a shame how different states choose to run their elections, but there again, you get what you vote for. No surprises.
yellowdogintexas
(22,989 posts)and audited afterward. Fort Worth Tx
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,373 posts)SomedayKindaLove
(1,108 posts)Same thing Trump also never had.
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,373 posts)SomedayKindaLove
(1,108 posts)Kind of a natural part of the grieving process for a lot of people.
Also, has to be mentioned, just because there is no evidence now, it doesnt mean there wont be evidence later.
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,373 posts)That questions would arise is a great thing, as is the imagination that fuels it. They are the source of creativity.
But ... it's really a good idea to be very clear with one's own self about what is imagination and what has fact behind it. And act accordingly, which means not claiming things without evidence, not spreading rumours except as clearly labelled sourceless rumours. Grieving does not in any way require abandoning rationality and doing so does not help grieving.
Regarding your last sentence, ... very true. Thus we keep our eyes open, scanning for information, connecting related things noted from elsewhere, etc.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)Kid Berwyn
(19,050 posts)Never did say what his secret with Mike Johnson was, among other treasons.
SheltieLover
(62,054 posts)

DeepWinter
(793 posts)the trash function heavily with the conspiracy and Not My President posts. Makes it a happier DU experience.
Dem4life1234
(2,401 posts)RockRaven
(16,808 posts)The endless stream of nonsense posted by fans of clickbait grifters was too tempting to avoid, and now they have to decide: climb out of that rabbit hole, or dig it deeper. Some will dig...
orange jar
(878 posts)I hope that, after this election, Allan Lichtman will be seen as nothing more than a glorified astrologist. Wishy-washy, goalpost moving, egocentric self-flagellators such as he should forever be banished to the dark realm.
I'm also half-seriously and half-jokingly convinced that Meidas Touch is a Republican operative designed to scam Dems. Obviously they aren't, but they might as well be working for Trump with how genuinely damaging they and similar outfits are to Dems.
bikes and bunnies
(99 posts)Present your case.
BonnieJW
(2,712 posts)I listen to their podcasts all the time
orange jar
(878 posts)"Trump is DOOMED!!!" "Democrats DESTROY Republicans!!!" "Trump HUMILIATED!!!" "Trump surrogates SHREDDED ON LIVE TV!!!"
Then, when you watch the actual videos, you'll see probably the most milquetoast criticism of Trump and/or the Republicans ever uttered.
You don't think all that hyperbole and hype have led to unrealistically high hopes going into this election? Or cultivated a bubble of toxic positivity? They obviously aren't the only ones doing this, but they're the prime example of rage bait turned into revenue farming on the Democratic side.
The Wandering Harper
(915 posts)I watched Meidas Touch for a bit, until I realized the titles of all the videos were hyperbolic clickbait, some bordering on lying
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,853 posts)Part of the playbook was to make everyone doubt results so that, as stated, we won't have to vote again.
Add to that doubt is the cost of elections. If social security benefits are cut, no way could I, and many others, donate enough to fight multi-f"n-billiinaires.
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)Reuters
China grants more trademark approvals for Ivanka Trump firm - including voting machines
https://www.reuters.com/article/business/china-grants-more-trademark-approvals-for-ivanka-trump-firm-including-voting-m-idUSKCN1NB0TL/
Blue_Roses
(13,607 posts)This is news I haven't heard before. How did I miss this? Has anybody written or talked about it?
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)ANY transaction ,unless barter,provides proof of purchase Jus' sayin'.
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)that receipts arent necessarily proof either. Physical counts are proof. Period.
There can also be representative sample counts as long as they are within statistical control points. But any anomalous results would necessitate a full count.
Florida in 2000 found ways to suppress votes during physical recounts by saying that if a punched hole in a ballot was not perfectly cleared of the punched-out chad the vote was invalid.
So lots was learned then but not a lot has been done to really assure security.
Then theres the bragging multi voters I have seen on the Republican side. Last election some areas had more votes than people.
HelpImSurrounded
(515 posts)live love laugh
(14,881 posts)The only sure and accurate item is the actual physical ballot.
HelpImSurrounded
(515 posts)If the receipt and the ballot have matching hash codes and human readable information the match can be used to verify the accuracy of the original ballot. If tampering occurs such that the reader doesn't match the ballot or the ballot doesn't match the receipt it can identify that tampering actually occurred.
It would be laboriously slow but it would help ensure accuracy.
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)but you have no proof of purchase so to speak with your vote.Duh?
I recall seeing a newscast where voters were holding up purple thumbs as proof of their vote..somewhere overseas
We don't get a thumb,but we sure got the finger.
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)But I DO recall the hanging chad debacle.
Twenty four years hence,Im definitely older,but the jury is out on wiser....
bdamomma
(67,248 posts)regarding this week's election call your local election officials and see if they counted your Ballot.
Self Esteem
(1,915 posts)But my dudes, we're talking multiple states that shifted right - multiple states led by DEMOCRATIC administrations.
Do you think J. B. Pritzker is either naive to it or ... maybe in on it?
In 2020, Biden won Illinois by SEVENTEEN points. Harris? She'll win it by about eight/nine.
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)When $1 trillion is on the line and billionaires have money to burn believe me more than one state can be affected. Six states is nothing with that kind of money.
Self Esteem
(1,915 posts)The arguments I'm reading are literally no different than the Trump ones from 2020, especially the fact Biden won 81 million votes.
HOW COULD JOE BIDEN WIN SO MANY VOTES WHEN NO ONE WAS ENTHUSED ABOUT HIM?
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)

travelingthrulife
(1,469 posts)I suspect we just don't know the tech yet.
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)LAS14
(14,957 posts)live love laugh
(14,881 posts)Or maybe not THAT amazing
.
Mr. Sparkle
(3,231 posts)trump is a polarizing figure, so it cant be apathy. but yeah, its too soon to draw conclusions until we get more data.
John1956PA
(3,649 posts)Combined PA Votes for Biden & Trump in 2020: 6,835,903.
Combined PA Votes for Harris & Trump in 2024: 6,847,650 and counting.
onenote
(44,922 posts)That it is up at all is not surprising given the amount of attention and money spent there. But that gain in the number of votes cast is hugely offset by the decrease in the number of votes cast in other states that were not the focus of "swing state" attention. Take New York, where it is likely that the number of votes cast will be down by several hundred thousand compared to 2020.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)That will explain something that is not true.
The 15M vote number has been tossed around here for the past few days and it's complete crap.
When all the votes are counted, it's going to be about 3M fewer than in 2020.
brush
(58,731 posts)you're saying there will be three million fewer votes?
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)There are always door knocking efforts. I don't have any reason to believe that this year was any more productive than they have been in the past.
brush
(58,731 posts)I hope a great investigative reporter like Greg Palast gets on the case.
It's too late now to change the election results, and maybe even too late to save our democracy.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)That suggests there was more canvasing this year? Or that canvassing has a meaningful impact on the number of voters, relative to other factors?
The big issue here is apathy and fewer automatic mail in ballots going out.
brush
(58,731 posts)Californians did the same to AZ and NV. Seems you've never worked on a campaign. I have and done much canvassing. It works or campaigns wouldn't do it.
I still say something is fishy with those numbers.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)But that stuff happens every year. And vote totals go up and down.
DiverDave
(5,039 posts)No way, NO FUCKING WAY, did that motherfucker win fair and square.
He knew it was in the bag when he said he had enough votes.
And dancing onstage at a 1/4 full rally?
It was stolen right in front of us.
I will go to my grave convinced that they stole another one.
DetroitLegalBeagle
(2,264 posts)Are from non competitive states, both blue and red. At least I hope, because otherwise some reliably blue states just moved considerably to the right.
soandso
(1,631 posts)Current:
70,379,243
https://decisiondeskhq.com/results/2024/General/President/
onenote
(44,922 posts)At present, just under 147 million votes have been counted -- 70.26 million for Harris, 74.17 million for Trump, 2.46 million 3rd party. California's official website indicates there are still nearly 5 million votes still to be processed in that state alone. And AP/NBC estimate around another 5-6 million still to be counted in the rest of the country. Even if NBC's estimate is off by a factor of two, it means that when all is said and done, the total number of votes cast will be at least 155 million and could be even closer to the 158 million cast in 2020.
Is that enough of an "explanation" for the folks claiming that somehow the total number of votes cast is an indicator that the election was "rigged"? In 2012, there were around 2 million fewer votes cast than in 2008. The 20 million plus increase in the number of votes cast in 2020 was unprecedented. For example, from 2012 to 2016, even though 2012 was a "down" year compared to 2008, the total number of votes increased only by around 6.6 million votes. The number of votes cast in 2024 already is 10 million more than that total and is certain to be the second highest in history.
Response to Mr. Sparkle (Reply #10)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
Prairie Gates
(3,988 posts)It was the whole board.
milestogo
(19,173 posts)John1956PA
(3,649 posts)However, at this point, there is no way to put it to rest one way or the other.
At least, the theory helped usher in the era of paper ballots which constitute a de facto paper trail which allows for a manual count of votes in a precinct in the event that the tally of the ballot scanners is suspect.
Hope22
(3,464 posts)gab13by13
(26,269 posts)the transfer of votes died in a small plane crash on his way to DC to testify.
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)Hope22
(3,464 posts)We stood on the Statehouse steps in protest. While others Christmas shopped. maybe 200 people went back over and over to no avail. Was that the same year as the oddities with the black boxes, break insin Warren county BOE and more. Once you live through it you never forget it. I think the outcome was that SOS Blackwell had routed Ohio results through the RNC computer in Ky or Tn before sending them on. Carl Rove had his hand in there somewhere if I remember correctly. Another national nightmare.
John1956PA
(3,649 posts)CrispyQ
(38,992 posts)milestogo
(19,173 posts)It was at a party with friends, not a public statement. He knew he had won the presidency and there was nothing he could do about it.
Jamastiene
(38,197 posts)We were robbed in 2000 and 2004. I remember in 2000, the busted up sidewalks in Florida where they sent handicapped voters to go cast their votes. The voter rolls that got scrubbed. Jeb Bush saying he would "deliver" Florida for W.
We have reason now too. There are a lot of people who voted by mail and their ballots haven't been counted, in several states. The bomb threats were very real too. How would they know which precincts were precincts where POC voted and to target those specifically?
To say there was no cheating by the Republican Party is to not know the Republican Party. They always cheat. If they get caught, they play dumb and get away with it.
The Republican Party has always cheated, including W running to SCOTUS to make them stop counting votes in Florida. This discussion board was founded on just how wrong that was.
hannah
(206 posts)I was there voting on the infamous butterfly ballot. The punch card was so misaligned that I couldnt tell if I was voting for Al Gore or the Communist Party. They let alot of people run for President on that ballot.Jewish people voted for racist Pat Buchanan without knowing they did. Then the Brooks Brothers protest, so fake
Trump said he saved Ron Desantis from losing his first election. He said he had to send the FBI in to stop the vote in Broward county because he was losing so bad. The Fbi under Trump opened an investigation
After the asshole Desantis was elected. Fbi dropped the charges against Andrew Gillum.
Stop saying this doesnt happen.
We shouldnt dwell on who is to blame, but how to form the resistance.
Maybe start on College campuses with a Democracy and Decency tour.
Hope22
(3,464 posts)Many years later when those players, who the press went on about as if they were just concerned Floridians, tuned out to be Republicans from DC and had jobs as national republicans. Go figure. They stole it right in plain sight. It makes me wonder how any of us had the strength to live through Tuesday! It really has been living hell but no worries more hell to come!
Jamastiene
(38,197 posts)Every single person in that picture turned out to be a Republican operative.
Jamastiene
(38,197 posts)I know it happened. I was here.
Babajida
(80 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 9, 2024, 07:24 PM - Edit history (1)
Do you remember why in the end Bev Harris became a villain around here? I remember that happening but don't remember why.
sarisataka
(21,492 posts)I'm surprised there are not more CTs being put forth
Dr. Strange
(26,010 posts)Hope22
(3,464 posts)He got his people geared up for it. In fact he never stopped talking about it. If he hadnt had the numbers Im sure he would have attacked the Capitol then. Its so funny that he knows its going to be rigged because he is the one going to rig it. He told everyone that this time too. He knew the fix was in. Why do we not believe him! The excuse is that the woman lost. We deserve the answers. If it pans out we will accept it. If you are old enough you will know that they are not all CTs as you call them. . That term is a slam to people who want transparency and fairness in the election process. Anyone with a question gets that label.
sarisataka
(21,492 posts)For example, if every swing state had Harris +2% and she lost all of them, I would be suspicious.
However the polls had her trailing in just about all seven, maybe tied in one or two. The response was "that's unpossible" and the laundry list of why polls are meaningless trotted out again.
Then, shockingly, we lose the swing states by about what the polls predicted. Response "someone cheated"
When the evidence does not match the result, there may be something there. But we repeated 2016 and ignored what we didn't want to see.
Hope22
(3,464 posts)Ill wait to see, but thank you. I sure do wish you were on Kamalas team. Sounds like they missed out!
sarisataka
(21,492 posts)I would be the tenth person- the one to look at "what if it is true"...
Before the election I said I believed Harris would need 80M votes to win.
milestogo
(19,173 posts)Fiendish Thingy
(19,023 posts)That involves the reach of conservative media, social media, voter suppression, lack of voter engagement and critical thinking skills (a significant number of voters thought Biden was still on the ballot!), apathy, cynicism, exhaustion from COVID, inflation, etc.
Add to that the racism and misogyny soaked fascist propaganda masquerading as populism, and its the perfect recipe for the perfect storm.
onenote
(44,922 posts)kentuck
(113,164 posts)...that they would steal it if they had the opportunity or the means.
Does anyone dispute that?
kwolf68
(7,885 posts)No doubt IF by some chance they had someone figure out a way to literally erase X number of votes for Harris in each district they absolutely would do it. Their desire to cheat is without question. I need to know HOW the hell it could have been done.
tritsofme
(18,916 posts)Not seeing much opportunity.
onenote
(44,922 posts)Sarcasm.
beaglelover
(4,178 posts)TomSlick
(12,124 posts)Give folks time.
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)The more arrogant and entitled people feel,the harder it is to admit they've been outwitted.
Smart and smart ass are vastly different.
I can hear the wailing now,as the wheel comes round to those who thought they would be anointed and untouchable.
TomSlick
(12,124 posts)So is he an arrogant, entitled ass?
President Biden has better access to the facts than I. Absent compelling evidence - not just feelings or theories - I'm with Joe.
We should not emulate Trump and deny facts. As President Biden said
It's time to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and start again.
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)TomSlick
(12,124 posts)Is President Biden correct? Was the election fair and transparent?
BattleRow
(1,364 posts)I have reservations about it,personally
BannonsLiver
(18,637 posts)Its moronic
gab13by13
(26,269 posts)that elections are stolen when both the 2000 and 2004 elections were. What does it matter even when Republicans are caught it gets swept under the rug. I also believe that Oswald didn't kill JFK but what does it matter?
SoCalDavidS
(10,599 posts)I find myself agreeing with what you post at least 80%+ of the time.
dchill
(41,160 posts)Response to gab13by13 (Reply #26)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
brush
(58,731 posts)the Harris campaign deployed?
I don't. We should know by now that if trump is talking he's lying, and if he's awake he and his campaign are cheating somewhere.
No way he won all the swing states legitimately...most with Dem govs and legislative majorities.
intheflow
(29,279 posts)He was running around crying about the election being rigged an suddenly, against reason and what our own eyes saw in rally attendance and Harris enthusiasm, what we've watched in horror as women die from abortion bans, the SCOTUS immunity ruling, his response to COVID, and his entire first presidency including the J6 insurrection. Democratic voter registration broke records yet 12 million fewer people voted. Exit interviews as reported in the WaPo indicated that voters liked Harris better but still voted for Trump. So I mean, generally, if it looks and walks like a duck...
SoCalDavidS
(10,599 posts)If they knew they HAD TO cheat in order to win, and they KNEW they could get away with it, undetected, they 100% WOULD.
IT'S WHO THEY FUCKING ARE!
mathematic
(1,544 posts)Arguably the most diverse area of the country and most non-white urban area outside of Hawaii moves a mind-breaking 21 points to Trump and we still have people refusing to do soul searching.
Native
(6,869 posts)snot
(10,934 posts).
lapfog_1
(30,451 posts)I got caught. Not because someone looked at my black hat group's hacks ( around 5 of us ) but because we were young and bragging rights were what we wanted. We didn't do anything malicious... just pranks. In that time and in that place, instead of facing criminal charges or even being kicked out of college... we were offered JOBS. As white hats. Please fix our computer operating systems to be more secure they said.
So, after a lecture by the dean... we went to work and fixed the numerous security problems we found.
Since then I have been a computer expert for decades. I was on the government team that found and traced the "Morris worm". After the security officer for all of NASA went to a "black hat / white hat conference" and bragged about how secure NASA was... and the subsequent hacking of NASA... they came to me to run NASA cyber security for a year.
Want to BET MONEY that given resources and time, I couldn't create a cyber attack team to flip the votes in a thousand different counties, each with their own security arrangements for their voting machines... and do so without leaving a single trace? I know I can. I know there are smarter hackers than me who can. The big thing is the scope of the people needed to bypass security on a 1000 different systems ( but there really are not 1000 different systems ) and keep quiet about having done so. The only way to prevent such hackers is for open elections where every vote is NOT SECRET and counted by hand. Multiple times... and crosschecked all the way to the state wide electing summary. and public. with honest press reporting every step of the way.
Elon with his billions, and Putin can do it if motivated.
I had a team of Russian programmers working for me in the past. Very talented. At least one or two were known ex-KGB. They could easily pull it off if Putin directed them to do it... and probably keep quiet about having done it.
So don't "explain" how it could never happen.
I don't have evidence that it did happen, I just know it COULD happen.
I keep looking at the polling data. Sure some of the polls could be off... but they keep being off... and not by a margin of error numbers... waaay off. Polling is based on statistical samples... and we all remember what Mark Twain said about statistics. But there is a nagging doubt. mostly based on what we did as a nation on Tuesday... Trump, a vulgar person who lies like most of us breaths... and who is racist and misogynist to the core, won the popular vote? First time on 20 years that any Republican won the nation wide popular vote... AFTER he said everything that he said in the campaign... after the insurrection, after the likely treason, the illegal payoffs to porn stars and cheating on his wife, after the racist jokes that he and his surrogates made, really got more black men to vote for him, got even a single vote from women? We all woke up Wednesday feeling like we just got mugged on the way home Tuesday... shocked... and now you want so quickly to "move on" to dictatorship... so sad about the Ukraine people about to either die or be enslaved again. So sad about the rights being taken from Americans... and all because we want to pay less for eggs at the grocery store ( after a bird flu epidemic killed millions of chickens in the US and the ignorant voters can't understand that this actually happens?? ).
I find it all a bit hard to believe.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that people we trusted when they said Biden didn't steal the election are the same people who are now saying Trump didn't steel the election.
do you know any Russian hackers? I do.
Not saying the DID pull it off... but they COULD.
I know I could do it to a single polling place and never ever leave a trace. Forensics depend on echoes of data being left behind... and yet there are ways to easily delete and leave no trace. I actually have 4 patents on this very topic ( trying to make sure there is something left behind ), which a company paid my company $12 million to acquire. that technology is never made it into a single product on the market... The company that bought my patents uses them to sue others that eventually discover the same things I discovered. They have made 100s of millions by doing so.
orangecrush
(22,964 posts)In the history of this website.
LeftInTX
(32,142 posts)They are not connected. There is no network.
That was why Fox News was sued by the voting machine company. Fox spread these CT. Fox lost.
lapfog_1
(30,451 posts)I never ever mentioned the internet. I said if I had the time and the resources. resources here means people... either install the hack at the voting machine manufacturing site or at the polling location. Maybe every machine, maybe not. Make sure that the machine passes any audit... or inspection. Make sure after the hack is complete and the final audit happens that the machine removes all trace of a hack... all on it's own. Or leave it in for next time you need it. You don't need to even have access to the machine ever again... and you certainly do NOT flip every vote... only enough to change the outcome... and to be statistically within the realm of possibility. It has to subtle. And leave no traces. Again... you would need a large team of hackers... you might need to even insert themselves to pass background checks into the software companies that create the machines. It might take years. Or not. pretty sure you could install the hack at the voting time using random people that have a drivers license and are registered US citizens.
LeftInTX
(32,142 posts)There are checks and balances. We know how many show up. How many undervotes. How many showed up and didn't vote. How many forgot to insert their ballots etc etc.
lapfog_1
(30,451 posts)what about the bios...
any firmware updates?
How exactly did the the mistaken update by CrowdStrike take down hundreds of thousands of Windows based systems recently.
Yes, those updates came over the internet. But for 5000 machines and updates via USB key or whatever they use... the internet isn't needed.
LeftInTX
(32,142 posts)I was in our election integrity committee. The GOP wanted to disassemble machines and wanted source code.
Have a good evening. Or better yet, join your party's election integrity team and have fun!
lapfog_1
(30,451 posts)the systems they use are behind 1/4" thick copper plates on all 6 sides. Even the power lines that enter those "tempest" rooms are routed through electrical isolation, networking? LOL surely you jest! The machines do not even have USB ports. Forget about trying to hide a USB key in or out. You go through a man trap.. marine guard at the first door... checks you in with eye scans and fingerprints.. you go into another room that has two marines behind bullet proof glass. this time they ask you to answer a series of questions... they have a gun port into your enclosure. Finally you get access to the machine room. The system inside runs MLS on Secure Linux ( a special version of Linux for Secure sites ). this gets you access to the project you are working on inside... and only that data. And even then they are paranoid about what you ( as admin ) might get access to. This is Eric Snowden territory... all created because of Snowden.
These are actual secure computers. The source code is checked and rechecked. Only US citizens are allowed to create the software that runs... most have security clearances.
Our voting machines are a joke compared to these. Only protected from rudimentary hacks.
Could we have cheated in 2020? Sure. Did we? I have no evidence. All I know is that it is possible. And one other thing. Projection is very strong in the GOP. in MAGA. Whatever they have accused us of doing, it is because they either do it themselves or wish they had done it or they justify doing it because they THINK we did it.
And they have smarter people that can do what I am talking about... people that work for Putin and have had years now to perfect their hacks... if they did it. Again, I have zero evidence that anything happen. Maybe a lot of Latino men and black men think that having a woman president is the worst thing... there was an interview of a latino family... illegals that became citizens with Reagan's amnesty program... and they voted for Trump because "now the illegals are criminals" ( I suspect they only watch Faux ). I guess they really don't see the irony in this ( they were criminals when they entered the USA 40 years ago ). but I keep coming back to 2 facts - DJT is a horrible person that did not grow his base at all, and the polls, even by reputable pollsters, were off by 2X or 3X the margin of errors in their polls.
LeftInTX
(32,142 posts)The soldier who went missing at Ft Hood under Trump's watch.
There are tons of Republican Latinos snd that is an old fact. Why do you think Texas is perpetually red? I have their voting histories and I talk to them. Their histories are in VAN. About 40% of them are GOP.
The Rio Grande Valley went red. They are very anti abortion there. Always have been. Try dealing with these types face to face and they will tell you who they are, Trump train and all.
relayerbob
(7,094 posts)Peter Thiel is Vance's patron, as well as Musk's buddy, *and* Palantir is heavily in the government systems security business. And coincidentally, a bunch of "harmless" Russian bomb threats and Trump's "little secret".
Plenty of room for doubt. Plenty of room for opportunity.
As you say, whether it *did* happen, doesn't change that fact that it *could* happen. And it should be investigated, at the very least.
But, yeah, let's just not even investigate because we don't want to look like Q-nuts and Trumpers and hand the government over to the coup Confederate insurrectionists on a silver platter.
Jamastiene
(38,197 posts)You stated the case for looking into it perfectly. I can't believe people don't even want to look into it.
electric_blue68
(19,850 posts)contact Dem Senators, Reps in relevant committeees. E-mailed the WH. Contacted old colleges w gov't connections. Etc, etc
On a different note - you if you like Science Fiction w computer geniuses, nefarious doings, and cyber heroes pushing back etc
you might enjoy Person of Interest - it's got all this, and more!
lapfog_1
(30,451 posts)but in particular, as it relates to computer hacks and viruses, I recommend John Brunner.
"Stand on Zanzibar" - 1968
"The Sheep Look Up" - 1972
"The Shockwave Rider" - 1975
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brunner_(author)
amazing what he predicted 50 years ago, even before I was in high school. in 1975 I started working on the Arpanet, specifically on the IMP or Internet Messaging Protocol translator while in college. Long before it became TCP/IP and, via Al Gore's legislation in the late 80s, the Internet we both love and hate today. It might have been a better idea to have the Internet to remain a research network for universities and government research centers, free of commercial presence. No Elon Musk. No jeff Bezos, and all the rest.
But I will take a look at your book.
electric_blue68
(19,850 posts)I'm glad the Internet as we know it happened. Like just about any human invention it's got it's positives, and negatives.
I learned alot, have had a lot of fun, seen amazing things, meet wonderful people etc
How interesting you were involved waaaay back then. I'd heard about pre-GUI message boards through my Sci-Fi fandom.
lapfog_1
(30,451 posts)in one of the first commercial transactions on the "internet". Held an auction on rec.wine bulletin board. Sold it in lots of 12 cases ( her husband was a big collector and they got divorced ). Researched by hand every case in Wine Spectator. did the bidding via email and more posts on the bulletin board to update the latest high bid. All by hand. Kept thinking to my self that I could write the software to automate it all ( but this was prior to html and the web ). but I sold all her wine ( and people complained about to me about using the internet for commercial purposes but 100s of others said this was a great thing to do )...
1989 or 1990.
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Nt
kentuck
(113,164 posts)They have had four years to get it right. Also, I remember when Trump said that he "had all the votes he needed". What was that about?
And the polls that showed Kamala ahead in almost all the battleground states and Iowa. What changed?
Blue Owl
(55,210 posts)TBF
(34,997 posts)I've been reading all the different theories out there. That's just one of them. I think the theory about information bubbles had a lot of weight. I also think there's still a lot of old-fashioned sexism and racism out there. So, maybe not just one theory but a combination.
kellytore
(217 posts)Metaphorical
(2,370 posts)I'm hearing a lot of recriminations and finger pointing right now, but let's be perfectly blunt:
* Dominion is owned by the Republicans
* Audits are possible, but frankly they aren't going to happen
* Social media continues to be unregulated in any meaningful wy
* The media all but shut down coverage of Trump's negative issues, while throwing everything they could at Kamala Harris.
* Trillions were at stake
* Bomb scares in PA and GA.
* Unlimited dark money
* Russian money going through backchannels.
If there wasn't a conspiracy, then someone was asleep at the switch at the RNC.
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,373 posts)Republicans? That must be why Dominion sued Republicans for big money and Republicans paid Dominion big money.
I assume you are not just making up the assertion and will very quickly show your evidence. But it's possible you don't have any.
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,373 posts)Republicans in court defending themselves from suits by Dominion
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143336868
johnnyfins
(1,669 posts)Bury your head in the sand all you want and blame fellow dems for not turning out.
Hope it makes you feel better.
Bernardo de La Paz
(52,373 posts)tritsofme
(18,916 posts)Strange message while embracing some goofy conspiracy theory with zero evidence.
SCantiGOP
(14,350 posts)In states wheres Democrats controlled the state government and all of the election processes?
That is the same question I had for MAGA when Trump said Georgia had been stolen in 2020 even though the Rs controlled the whole election.
Martin68
(24,906 posts)It is a common reaction to an unexpected and traumatic turn of events. Some people never escape it. The 7 stages of grief are the classic progression (if progress is made) starting with shock, leading through denial, anger, bargaining, depression, testing, and, finally, acceptance. Only when the reality is accepted can one start working towards a better future.
Xoan
(25,477 posts)Blue Full Moon
(1,637 posts)markodochartaigh
(2,225 posts)it has proved to be true that there absolutely was a vast right-wing conspiracy to trash Hillary. From the oligarchs to the news media to the pastors, etc.
Blue Full Moon
(1,637 posts)ruet
(10,080 posts)It's more like a denial chamber. Deny, deny, deny, deny any measure of bad news for the Dems.
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)Jit423
(849 posts)Trump won with 4 million fewer votes than in 2020 after he incited and insurrection, was indicted on over 30 felonies and found guilty of sexual ly attacking a woman, removing, hoarding and failing to return top security documents to the government, spewing the most obscene racist, sexist, homophobic messages ever by a Presidential candidate? I say, that is plenty room for suspicion.
LeftInTX
(32,142 posts)of the county had record lines and record check ins. The Blue areas had no lines and very low numbers. The Democratic Party's VAN runs on check ins, not whether the vote was counted. When I do my data, I will not be surprised if some precincts have 20% turnout and GOP areas have 80%.
We had 51 early voting sites.
We were worried during early voting because our Dem areas were falling behind the GOP.
whathehell
(30,021 posts)some crazed RW conspiracies, think conspiracies, almost by definition, do not exist!
southmost
(819 posts)down that rabbit hole anyways
Hope22
(3,464 posts)Then I think it should be looked into. How many states did this happen in? Were they only states that were in play or was it a peculiar voting trend. Its really pretty easy to find out. It certainly wont be the first time that ballots were recounted with observers present! If we have ballots recorded yes for reproductive rights and yes for T that is very sketchy to say the least. Its not being a poor sport to verify true and fair elections. Yes it will cost money but nothing compared to the reaming we are preparing for. If this happened only in battleground states it deserves a look. Check the paper receipt that is why they are there.
gab13by13
(26,269 posts)they are now falsely claiming that the only places that Kamala won were places that didn't have voter ID.
markodochartaigh
(2,225 posts)But I also think that anyone who doesn't believe that our oiligarchs conspire behind closed doors to run our society to their own preferences and benefit is a fool. A sad and dangerous fool.
BlueTsunami2018
(4,147 posts)So that when they actually turn around and steal it, which they have done before, we look like the same kooks they are.
Its never been stolen, its always stolen.
Whats the truth? No one knows.
orangecrush
(22,964 posts)They have been passing and pushing?
Gee, it's almost as if they'd do anything to keep Democratic votes from being cast or counted!
LudwigPastorius
(11,547 posts)Many here that believed there was going to be a "blue tidal wave", despite the pre-election polls.
Now, they've got to have a reason that didn't happen.
Plus, it's more comforting for us to think that there was some kind of conspiracy, rather than admit that a vast number of Americans want a guy in power who would employ the military to round us up and dispose of us.
Ms. Toad
(35,860 posts)For the last four years, Republicans have been quoting, verbatim, the voting machine conspiracy theories we created in the Bush years. But now that we've lost again, we want them back.
I've always found it amusing how quickly our own conspiracy theories became something for us to ridicule when it was the other side promoting them.
LilElf70
(691 posts)Why did the dems only show up 69 million times in 2024, compared to 81 million times in 2020? Without this answer, everyone is guessing why trump won, including they cheated, or it was rigged.
And of course if Trump had never entered the picture years ago, the word rigged would have never been brought up.
Trump is the rotten banana in the hand of bananas. The stench is quite telling.
There is no excuse or being ignorant of or ignoring the massive ongoing voter suppression efforts by the Republicans. That has been enabled by smearing the people who bring this to our attention and call for action by labeling them "conspiracy theorists."
Millions of voters were purged from the rolls, overwhelmingly in African American districts. Unknown numbers of ballots are declared invalid and tossed, again overwhelmingly in African American districts. Absurdly long lines in those districts is another form of voter suppression. Republicans do not even bother to make what they are doing a secret!
Over 40% of the population in Mississippi is AA, yet the most extreme racist right wing politicians consistently get elected there. That is not an anomaly, it represents a pattern that holds across the nation. But we are to believe that Republicans are not stealing elections?
B.See
(4,332 posts)not have been 'stolen' in the manner many speak of. But via maga right wing effort to disenfranchise voters via voter purges (Abbott removed over 1 million from Texas alone - some on sound reasons, but others like the reported 65,000 who didn't "respond to a notice of examination" ).
Add to that, maga laws enacted in some states that allowed for an individual to challenge the eligibility of tens of thousands of voters, and the numerous other maga moves and manipulations (like efforts to undermine and intimidate voter registration groups) that I've written about (with linked sources) herein.
Cirsium
(1,664 posts)Good post. I will make one point, with your kind indulgence. I do not mean it to be a criticism of your post in any way.
There are never any legitimate reasons to purge voter rolls. A person dies? So what? Zombies don't vote. A person moves? So what? Do we really imagine that people are running around voting in more than one location at all, let alone in any kind of numbers that would affect the outcome of an election without getting noticed? People are criminals? So what? People are sentenced in a court of law for any crimes for which they are convicted. Punishing them again by denying them their right to vote is not legitimate. People are undocumented immigrants? That is not happening and is extremely unlikely to ever happen, and again most certainly not in any kind of numbers that would affect the outcome of an election without it getting noticed.
Yes, I have seen your posts about voter suppression. Much appreciated. Thank you.
stillcool
(33,141 posts)LiberalArkie
(17,221 posts)Vinca
(51,549 posts)you compare the response to Harris in the last 3 months to Trump. That was Obama 2008 level excitement vs. reheated hash.
AllyCat
(17,444 posts)People. But it is weird how Dems are winning and abortion rights measures passing and then they turn around and vote for the con man.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)... in that he could say anything he damn well pleased, depending on the mood of his followers.
North Coast Lawyer
(34 posts)Mushy thinking by way too many Americans is how we got here. We need to totally avoid mushy thinking on our side.
LAS14
(14,957 posts).... the problem. Ignorant of current events, ignorant of authoritarianism, etc. But mushy thinking really does it for me. It's the direct opposite of common sense.
TNNurse
(7,213 posts)than there are that many really awful people in our country.
Elessar Zappa
(16,295 posts)I think posts suggesting election fraud should be either moved to the creative speculation group or deleted by juries as kooky content. Its embarrassing when were acting like the Republican sore losers of 2020.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)kerry-is-my-prez
(9,544 posts)We are in an emergency situation and need to use all of our energy towards electing Dems and helping people who are targets of Trumpsters like black children, Haitians, women of childbirth age,etc. I was going to say Latinos - but a lot of them will have karma put onto them. I will feel bad for the ones who didnt vote for Trump. The Cubans here in Florida can suck it. This isnt the first election theyve screwed with.
William769
(56,685 posts)

Bitbit
(145 posts)A Republican hasnt won the popular vote in 20 years. (Bush 04)
You have to go back 16 years for a Democrat to get 69 million votes and that was the most ever then. (Obama 08)
Kamala only topped Hillary by 4 million 8 years. apart.
Trump got 10 million more in the same 4/8 years.
Trump had close to the same amount of votes in 20 and 24.
Biden had 81 million+ in 20 and Kamala gets 69 million 4 years later.
Theres 6 million less registered voters this cycle.
158.5 million voted in 2020
Appx 145 million people voted in 2024.
Normally, the overall vote increases every cycle.
(Since 1992)
Clintons 2nd (1996) term was a lower turnout. Otherwise, always higher.
These are facts with rounded numbers.
The rumor mill says 14 million Democratic votes are missing. I DID SAY RUMOR MILL ON THIS ONE.
So, I wonder
..
gab13by13
(26,269 posts)Democrats kicked ass down ballot - Governor, Lt. Governor, busted up the super majority, Attorney General.
Why did all of those Magats only vote for TSF? I thought they hated Democrats?
MaeScott
(912 posts)
because they have perfected the art of the steal. And will tweak how it was done to repeat it. Leon is all in this.
And dont tell me they wouldnt because theyve done it before, and probably more times than we know. Moscow Mitch didnt deep six those election reform bills for nothing. Our election system is compromised. Period.
oasis
(51,925 posts)persons to ever walk and breathe on planet Earth.
malthaussen
(17,886 posts)RevBrotherThomas
(852 posts)...from foreign & domestic influencers? Absolutely I do. There is plenty of evidence for that; none of it actionable in any way that would force a recount or revote, but it is there.
Do I believe there was fraud of actual post-vote counting or scrubbing or manipulation on any kind of scale that could have influenced the outcome of any of the swing states' totals? No I do not.
The ugly truth is Donald Trump is the candidate who procured the most votes, popular & electoral college. This is the choice of the majority of people who voted.
THIS is America. And it ain't pretty.
beemerphill
(532 posts)When there were calls of rigged elections after Biden won we all knew that they were false. There were too many polling places with too many workers to ever pull off a major fix. That many people could NEVER keep quiet about an enterprise of that size and scope. The same is still true. There are some ways to cheat a bit here and there, but none of them would go unnoticed. And that many people would surly have a couple of big mouths to brag about it.
The results are in. We can live with it, or we can live with it and make up lame conspiracy theories. Either way, we have Trump for the next four years.
Spreading false rumors is a waste of time and counterproductive.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)Ferrets are Cool
(22,077 posts)As you are. At least for now.
marcopolo63
(70 posts)Were the Harris campaign lawyers only geared up to fight against Trump if Harris won the election?
I mean the voting tabulation systems are software that can be manipulated. Some simple audits might uncover fraud. And how many Election commissions are MAGA controlled, and willing and capable to help Cheato-Benito to win?
It seems like if Harris isnt willing to fight this - why would anyone else?
pnwmom
(109,717 posts)even claiming a national vote count in Trump's favor.
We saw how the vote count changed in 2020 over the first week.We know that in 2020 there were millions of rejected provisional votes. Why should we have been treating Tuesdays numbers as final?
malaise
(280,597 posts)That any DUer would rule it out.
Time is on my side. I can wait for the answers
Jamastiene
(38,197 posts)This site was founded over the cheating done in the 2000 election. Republicans cheat every election. We know that. I know they do here in NC. Never trust a Republican not to cheat.
malaise
(280,597 posts)I can wait but I sure wont rule that out.
Blue Owl
(55,210 posts)This time, they had a better handle on the Biden numbers and may have been able to work things to their favor. Otherwise why would tRump have had that specific number of 11,750 votes or whatever it was he was fuming about that is practically an admission of cheating when you say that kind of shit
SweetieD
(1,671 posts)make sense. I really think they were doing it then. They just didn't estimate how many people would actually vote for Biden.
That is why Trump was so adamant about "fraud" and the election was stolen in 2020, Because he likely knew what fake vote amounts he was supposed to get.
live love laugh
(14,881 posts)Silent Type
(8,140 posts)IbogaProject
(4,026 posts)By Kevin Collier, Tyler Kingkade and Tom Winter
Bomb threats sent to polling places and ballot-counting locations in at least five battleground states across the U.S. Tuesday targeted mostly Democratic counties, an NBC News analysis has found.
The full extent of who received the bomb threats is not clear. None are believed to have been deemed credible. NBC News compiled a list of 67 locations in 19 counties, based on local news reports and state and local election officials statements, all of which appear to have received similar threats. Of the 67 locations, 56 were in 11 counties that voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 election, including the eight most populated. Those high-population Democratic counties include voting locations for Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Detroit, Michigan; Phoenix, Arizona; Atlanta, Georgia; and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/election-day-bomb-threats-overwhelmingly-targeted-democrat-leaning-rcna179006
What is confusing about crucial precints getting briefly emptied out? There was also a issues at crucial tabulation locations. https://www.cip.uw.edu/2024/11/05/election-day-bomb-threats-tabulator-irregularities/
But yes using campaign staff from our loosing 2016 campaign and an ever worsening economic divide coupled w poorly educated low information voters. Either way our millionaire lost and the wealthy will ride this out just fine.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)Dem4life1234
(2,401 posts)tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)eom
sleroy49
(49 posts)is good for the gander. There were conspiracy theories after 2016, too. They died down pretty quickly as I'm sure these will. Unlike Trump and his sycophants, Democrat leaders aren't calling for civil war and have done what is necessary to help ensure democracy survives.
Quixote1818
(30,546 posts)Which Trump did.
garybeck
(10,047 posts)Understand voting technology
Some of us here have been learning about the voting machines and optical scanners for many years
The truth is, it is feasible to infect the optical scanner machines with a virus that miscounts the votes. That is a fact. There are many computer security scientists who have sounded the alarm about this. You should not attack people for their understanding of this problem. The fact that Biden won last election does not change anything about the situation concerning our vote counting process and how it is vulnerable to attacks.
LAS14
(14,957 posts)... manipulate anything if you can gets your hands on it. Imagine the scope of getting that many hands on local machines and keeping that many people quiet about it.
Anyway, while I can't recite them all, I invite you to look at the reasons given for the 2020 election not being stolen and apply them to the 2024 election.
garybeck
(10,047 posts)they don't need the internet
all the memory cards are removed from every machine before every election and they are programmed in a central location.
it would only take ONE memory card to be infected and it could transmit the virus to all the other memory cards.
believe me. we've looked at all of this. it can be done. but don't take my word for it. these are the people who conducted a study and report that concluded our election system is vulnerable to attack:
their conclusion as stated in the report that was commissioned by the Brennan Institution:
LAS14
(14,957 posts)"The most troubling vulnerabilities of each system can be substantially remedied if proper countermeasures are implemented at the state and local level."
Do you have good reason to think their findings of 19 years ago were totally ignored?
SweetieD
(1,671 posts)surrogates have said themselves.
Biden never said in 2020 "You don't have to vote for me" "I have enough votes".
Rogan said that Elon told him he knew the results for the battleground states 4 hours before they were announced due to a special "app" that Elon had.
I don't just think it was stolen, I know it was.
However, I'm not going to storm the capital or stress about it. It is unlikely anyone in the party will challenge anything because the down vote races seemed to accurately reflect polling in most places.
obamanut2012
(28,200 posts)Wow.
gemini_liberal
(321 posts)It's very easy to slip into when you feel emotionally vulnerable or powerless, which a lot of us do right now. And it's not a healthy road to go down, as you can easily slip further down a rabbit hole that can lead to your perception of reality being warped and adopting all kinds of problematic beliefs. I just think of the people who were once on our side back in the early 2000s who bought into conspiracies about 9/11 or whatever, who are now so far down the rabbit hole that they're embracing fascists and joined the people who they used to hate.
It sucks but it's better to rip the band-aid off and face reality for how it is. It's the only way you can adapt and progress.
(Note: obviously there are real anti-democratic conspiracies, with local officials purging rolls, suppressing votes etc. I am not referring to them, I am referring to the grand stuff like the idea that there was a successful secret nationwide effort to rig the vote or miscount it.)
And this is why the party needs to take a long look in the mirror. We need to start over. We lost. Get over it, regroup and get motivated.
We need to start today.
bigtree
(90,863 posts)...and just assume now eveything's fine.
Recounts aren't conspiracies, they are a legal measure to ensure accuracy in close elections.
Iris
(16,235 posts)I can take to make my own community better and it would be great to get ideas about that here.
For now, though, I think I'll need to step away for my own sanity.
Response to LAS14 (Original post)
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