General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHere's a compilation of the voter suppression / vote manipulation evidence so far...
Stephen Spoonamore's statement about hacking voter machinesVoting system vulnerability: 'Online and vulnerable': Experts find nearly three dozen U.S. voting systems connected to internet
Election Day bomb threats overwhelmingly targeted Democrat-leaning counties
Uncounted votes allegedly found in Michigan county after software error: "Days after the Tuesday, Nov. 5, election, thousands of votes were found to be reported incorrectly in one Michigan county, with the possibility of altering the outcome of a race."
BREAKING: Lancaster, Pennsylvania officials have BUSTED a large-scale fraudulent voter registration scheme that includes thousands of applications with the same handwriting, fake signatures, false addresses, etc
Greg Palast: Here's What We Do Now
Whether or not it was enough to change the outcome of the election, it should at the very least be investigated ASAP and taken seriously as the stakes are losing the country forever.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Response to DSandra (Original post)
polichick This message was self-deleted by its author.
Joe Biden will be posting on this thread momentarily.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)
NJCher
(38,337 posts)How to read it:
Means that I don't think Joe Biden or anyone else in the Democratic party will be paying attention to this until there is some evidence.
Dem4life1234
(2,021 posts)Doncha know?
littlemissmartypants
(26,006 posts)"Free and fair" elections.
That phrase that keeps being trotted by like a magical pony that we're all just supposed to accept as the ride we're getting but we never actually get to touch and saddle up.
Like self examination is a bad thing.
What the heck?
❤️
Otto_Harper
(776 posts)
?tr=w-1600,c-at_max
Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)Putin is losing the war and his economy is in shambles, he could lose his power.
Trump faces prison.
And the US oligarchs believe all the money in the US belongs to them.
They want it in the worst way.
So the psych profiles of the suspects fit the crime we see.
Don't forget Musk.
Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)Plus he is from South Africa which is part of the autocratic bloc.
Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)
Blue Full Moon
(1,355 posts)Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)How are you doing?
Blue Full Moon
(1,355 posts)Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)There is nothing those guys wouldn't do to game the vote.
Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)Yes if course, they are ruthless sociopaths and will do anything to get what they want.
ananda
(30,979 posts)Just examine the evidence and the fingerprints
of truth must follow.
Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)Even a rookie cop could figure it out if it was a non political crime scene.
But everyone acts confused at this crime scene.
ananda
(30,979 posts)Never give up!
Irish_Dem
(60,016 posts)We just don't know the details yet.
Some of it we may never know.
ananda
(30,979 posts)is going to look into it.
I really want to see what he finds out
Dem4life1234
(2,021 posts)With nothing better to do and can't even chill out
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)MacDo
(241 posts)DSandra
(1,288 posts)How did your lack in belief of the Republican Party taking over America part by part work out for you?
tintinvotes
(44 posts)deepblue
(42 posts)From what I am reading, Spoonamoore is a real person, with legitimate business in the election integrity field. Spoonamore is taking a chance. All he says is to recount a few precincts to prove it out. Seems reasonable. It is reasonable. Should be done by the Dems without any prompting. We're dealing with insurrectionists and fifth columnists supported by a hostile foreign power.
Not one of the things in Digby's blog relate to the particular technique Spoonamoore describes. Yet you point to Digby's blog. The techniques in Digby's blog refer to the typically unprovable claims by relatively anonymous people. Spoonamoore's isn't one of them. It is reasonably exact, the person making the claim is real, and he is running a risk telling us about it. If he's wrong, he is likely out of business.
Recounts should have been asked for on spec. Nazis ain't honest. We don't need Spoonamoore to know we should be doing recounts.
As a related aside, my old man had a very good contact in Ohio state gov. In 2004, my father was informed that Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell sat up with a spreadsheet adjusting vote totals as they came in live from a tabulator in Tennessee. This is exactly the technique Spoonamoore describes, except, apparently, it is now automated.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)Are you suggesting they are complicit in the conspiracy?
The Harris campaign could've requested and paid for recounts/audits if they seriously thought there was cheating.
They didn't, so that means they are either:
cowards,
stupid,
they were in on the conspiracy and wanted Trump to win,
or rational adults who could face the painful reality that they lost.
deepblue
(42 posts)I am saying verify by checking a few precincts more closely. Why are you arguing this point? Spoonamoore has put it on the line. If it is a conspiracy theory Spoonamoore's is the best there is. If it is proven false, which is easily done, then we know very well the count is honest. Want to end conspiracy theories potentially affecting the mentality of Democrats? Investigate this claim.
Really, you shouldn't argue something if what you say is not significantly more important to the task or superior in evidence to what someone else says. Nazis cheat, you can't get around that, yet you say counting a few precincts is engaging a conspiracy theory, when it is not. Why argue, even if you are 100% correct? No big loss proving you right, something to gain if you are legitimately motivated.
I don't think you have a better argument.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)They are the ones who have legal standing to do so.
As I said before, this either makes them
Cowards,
Stupid,
complicit in the conspiracy
Or rational people willing to face the painful reality that they lost the election.
Which of the four options do you believe is true as to why the Harris campaign chose not so seek recounts?
deepblue
(42 posts)So you prefer to "win" this increasingly goofy dialogue, that resides entirely on your end, rather than count a few precincts. In answer to your straw men, for all we know Biden is fully aware of what happened, and is either afraid of its implications or is actually working on it. Who knows. All I know is that your "coward" and "stupid" straw men are the predicates for things that can't be proven, whether or not the Dems are cowardly and stupid, unlike Spoonamoore's claim.
Also, I have all ready mentioned that my father was informed of the technique Spoonamoore described in relation to Kerry-Ohio 2004, the technique was the predicate for a court case involving the Tennessee tabulator, of which the manager of that computer system, on his way to testify in that court case, died in a horrifically strange air crash, ending the case. As far as I am concerned, Spoonamoore is risking his life. By checking a few precincts, he is no longer at risk.
Let's just check a few precincts. If you are legitimately motivated, I think what you want is that you don't want Dems swimming around in conspiracy theories. You get what you claim to want by checking a few precincts, and simultaneously destroy all the other conspiracy theories because Spoonamoore's is the best of the bunch, assuming Spoonamoore is wrong or a bad person. And, most satisfying to you, it seems, you get to prove yourself right. Let it happen.
soandso
(1,631 posts)Arizona: The Grand Canyon State requires a recount if the margin between the two leading candidates is equal to or less than 0.5% of the total votes cast, according to state election law.
Georgia: Candidates can ask for a recount if the margin of the total votes between candidates is equal to or less than 0.5%, according to the state’s website. Additionally, a recount can be requested in the case of “a suspected error or discrepancy in the returns.”
Michigan: The state requires an automatic, statewide recount if the margin between the candidates is 2,000 votes or less, according to state law. Candidates can also petition for a recount if certain requirements are met, including if they have an honest belief that without “fraud or mistake, the candidate would have had a reasonable chance of winning the election.”
Nevada: Candidates in the Silver State can demand a recount if specific requirements are met, according to state law. For example, they must file a request with the secretary of state and pay in advance for the estimated cost of the recount.
North Carolina: According to state law, candidates can request a recount if the margin of total votes cast between candidates is less than 0.5% or 10,000 votes.
Pennsylvania: The secretary of state will order a statewide recount if the margin of votes cast between the candidates is equal to or less than 0.5%, according to a 2023 directive from the secretary of state.
Wisconsin: Candidates can request a recount in the Badger State if the margin of votes cast between the candidates is equal to or less than 1%, according to state law.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/how-close-does-election-have-to-be-for-a-recount-here-s-how-it-works-in-swing-states/ar-AA1tzb2v
Now, if you're talking about fraud in the software, such as flipping votes, or fraud such as scanning ballots twice, people voting illegally, etc, that's another matter and one for which there must be proof. When the Trump campaign brought alleged evidence of such, in 2020, no court would hear it so all I can say is good luck with that. Most of the people who brought those claims ended up getting prosecuted and/or sued.
BTW, I agree with you that software and machines can be fucked with. I remember a computer guy testifying to that before congress, back when Bush was in office. The video is probably on Youtube.
deepblue
(42 posts)Look, it seems the guy testified under oath in the earlier Ohio case. I think he gets a little more space in our dialogue than would be afforded an anonymously circulated conspiracy theory. He said he kept talking about it after the Ohio case, and nobody cared, so he gave up. That sounds normal. All he says now is to take a hard look; he says recount, but I think simply looking at the voter rolls and other public information for a few precincts should be enough. The only thing about the guy that bothers me is that he seems to have had his hand in a number of different businesses, though software and election integrity is his core effort.
Another thing is, it does look like massive disinformation and misinformation lowered dem voter participation. This makes sense, because for decades we've said if we can get everybody to vote we will always win. And the Republicans agree with us, hence the voter suppression. However, if the loss due to massive lying is a main reason, why wouldn't they cheat or continue to perfect an ongoing, even if currently flawed, technique, on top of that. Republicans always overkill. Nixon had it in the bag without dirty tricks, yet he felt he needed to burgle offices for what was probably only marginally useful information, along with all the other things. Reagan too. It seems reasonably possible the Republicans are working on the devices. Like the guy says.
Though anything can be hacked, scanners backed up by paper records is reasonable, and possibly better than a hand count alone, in that separate records complicate things for the cheater. A single tabulator for a state sounds much more likely and hundreds of voting machines.
We don't do recounts and go to court to raise ghosts and say boo, like Giuliani. And even in 2020, they wanted nothing to do with recounts, only going to court with crap.
You can see a lot of reasonable elements are involved in my thinking, and when someone comes along and puts it on the line like this, I think it deserves serious consideration. Okay, I take your point. In some places a recount isn't possible by law. A deep forensic evaluation of a number of blue and red precincts should accomplish the same thing. Which should be the norm before a candidate concedes. Here Harris concedes after only a few hours, and Republicans still put the bum's rush on her by saying she waited too long. Uh-uh. Let's not ever again concede before the votes are counted. It's a hole the Republicans can drive through when it suits them, like they did with Gore, and we get nothing for it anyway. All ready only 53% of Democrats think the election was fair, saw that today. We get nothing on the subject of faith in election integrity by conceding early. The Republicans are seriously driving it down for us, also. It starts to make us look like we're easily rolled. We have enough trouble with that image all ready, even if we are internally stronger than they are.
soandso
(1,631 posts)And, Republicans did a re-count, in Maricopa county, which took a long time:
Final report from partisan Arizona review confirms Biden defeated Trump in Maricopa County last November
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/politics/arizona-election-review-results/index.html
There are thousands of lawyers working for the Democratic party and if they thought something was hinky in any location, they would be on it. Elias has already said he's going make moves in the PA senate race because it's so close (48.4 vs 49%). It would not surprise me if random checks, such as you suggest, aren't done in some locations.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)Let me know, as I still have a copy of the commission’s report somewhere, and would be interested to review what conclusions the commission drew from your father’s testimony.
SCantiGOP
(14,311 posts)The Biden Administration, the DNC, the DOJ, MSNBC and the rest of the MSM and the candidate herself.
I really hate to see some on DU buying into the 'fake news, they stole it' nonsense that MAGA peddled for four years.
AdamGG
(1,528 posts)who actively supported Trump's plans for alternate elector slates in 2020.
NJCher
(38,337 posts)You're not being fair. As another poster on this thread has pointed out, what is the harm of doing a couple trial counts to see if what is being said bears out?
Serious question: what is the problem with that?
Remember what their hero Ronny Reagan said: trust but verify.
proud patriot
(101,214 posts)
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)Four possible answers that I can see:
They are cowards,
They are stupid (remember Mark Elias works for the campaign, and would be the loudest voice calling for recounts if he thought there was cheating)
They are complicit, and wanted Trump to win,
Or, they are rational adults able to face the reality of losing the election.
Which one do you think is the reason why the campaign didn’t seek recounts?
NJCher
(38,337 posts)They are not going to make an issue out of this until they have something substantial to peg their request on.
The reason they are not going to demand recounts is that republicans have blown all credibility for such claims. If they are able to get something to substantial to go on, they will take the next step. That step is not necessarily recounts. It's tests.
The fact that you don't know that it's not necessarily recounts shows that you have not read all the pertinent threads.
I don't understand your close minded attitude. Do the reading. Invest your time, just like some of the rest of us have. Until you demonstrate you understand the allegations and on what they are based, you'll have no credibility in my eyes.
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)I trust Mark Elias to know when to act and what to do. He has “done his own research”.
I have gotten several emails from him since the election, and not one of them mentioned any fraud or cheating.
The deadline for requesting recounts, or “tests” (whatever that is - audits of specific precincts? That’s something most states already do, just not publicly) is rapidly approaching.
You never answered my serious, simple question:
Why do you think the Harris campaign conceded and chose not to pursue further action?
(I even made it a multiple choice question with pre-drafted answers to choose from)
NJCher
(38,337 posts)because I clearly stated you don't even know enough to ask the right questions. None of your questions even address the correct issue.
Let me re-state it: you have demonstrated you don't know enough about the issue to even phrase a question.
As far as Elias is concerned, he's not going to tell you diddly. Puh-leeeeeze! You are stretching the bounds of credulity by even posting that. 
----------------------
here's another poster telling you the same thing:
Though, the types of things that are alleged in this thread would not show up on recounts.
Three times you've been told--maybe four. And you still don't get it. Are you OK?
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)Reality is funny that way.
Harris didn’t contest the results or take any action to audit, recount or test the results- why not?
She conceded, rendering all other questions moot.
NJCher
(38,337 posts)She made the best decision she could based on what was available at the time.
Here's another thing I don't understand about you. Why do you think all this stuff is available instantly?
Have you never worked in a large organization? Do you not understand how information is processed and worked through? Do you not understand that many, many people are consulted and their opinions are worked over before decisions are made?
Apparently not.
electric_blue68
(18,968 posts)Hi
I'm in The Bronx. Voted early Nov 1.
In 2022 I moved about 35 days before The Election within my Burrough. I researched where my new voting site was. They gave me a provisional ballot. Got a letter ?5 wks later saying my vote wasn't accepted.
Sooo, this time I was extremely careful: getting a registration form, taking it to The Bronx BOE in person with my corrected address [the original late Sept move, and an apt change with in the same building in Dec '22.]
Went to vote. Bc I put it in "too late" to get my corrected voting card [takes 3 wks- I didn't know!] Told them about previous problem. There were going to give me a provisional ballot. 😐 But then election worker doubled checked, and saw I was in the system. So she gave me a regular ballot. Yay.
I took a photo. Not for thoughts of skulldugery, but history!. No I didn't have a smart phone in 2016 otherwise I'd have take a photo of my Hillary vote!
An acquaintence sent me this site:
vote.org/ballot-tracker-tools
I should get one of two, maybe three answers. Ballot accepted, ballot denied, ?ballot problem (not sure). .
Well, all I got was my voting info and with the original wrong apt info.
Wth?!
Acquaintence said it doesn't matter re; NYC mostly blue. I said sure it does the popular vote.
Anyway, I'll check site again early next week. If same result. I guess I'll call my House Rep.
AdamGG
(1,528 posts)The sources that are used on this thread are Reddit posts, not fact checked journalism.
Though, the types of things that are alleged in this thread would not show up on recounts. Ballotts that were withheld from being included would not show up on recounts.
NJCher
(38,337 posts)eom
soandso
(1,631 posts)sample recounts and full recounts when the margin is close.
DSandra
(1,288 posts)If there was even a little chance to save this country from fascism now, would you consider it?
uponit7771
(92,099 posts)... long lines
He didn't win Washington state. What do you think about these articles?
www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/1gnxqmw/elon_musks_company_starlink_praised_by_tulare/
Starlink confirmed by a news source (click through the reddit link at top for news source) to be connected for tabulation
nbcnews.com/news/ncna1112436
'Online and vulnerable': Experts find nearly three dozen U.S. voting systems connected to internet
politico.com/news/2024/09/01/us-election-software-national-security-threats-00176615
Russian malware found in voter registration database which transmitted data to Russia
Fiendish Thingy
(18,882 posts)If it’s credible, I’m sure he’ll get right on it.
wnylib
(24,909 posts)not a lack of vote tabulation. He is reporting on huge numbers of people whose eligibility to vote was challenged before election day and they were removed from the rolls.
This did happen. It was reported in the mainstream news prior to election day. There were court cases about it. Some rulings favored reinstating the status of voters. Were the reinstatements actually made?
How many people did not know that their voting eligibility had been challenged and they mailed in or dropped off ballots that would be rejected as not eligible? How many were turned back at the voting sure as ineligible?
The checks and balances in the system only work when the people in charge in districts and states safeguard them. Rafensperger was honest in Georgia in 2020. Is that true of other states and districts within them for 2024?
It is worth an investigation.
onenote
(44,854 posts)we are now saying could and in some instances did happen in 2024.
Sorry. This is foolishness and distracting from the real issues laid bare by the election -- namely our weakness among certain voting blocs.
Jit423
(450 posts)legitimate electors should bring resist.
Steve C
(23 posts)I live in SE New Mexico and there were two men sitting in the place that I vote “ watching.” I know of two people that were asked for IDs and not allowed to vote because they didn’t have one with them. In New Mexico you do not need an ID to vote. Hey Canada, can I sleep on your couch.
Fish700
(148 posts)We didn't even need those votes. All the federal seats went (stayed) blue.
Oopsie Daisy
(4,575 posts)* this needs to be part of the discussion and analyst.
soandso
(1,631 posts)Those voters are angry about US foreign policy and it's how they chose to express that. Their votes were not suppressed.
soandso
(1,631 posts)Do you not think Muslims and Arab Americans mean what they say? Many have loved ones who have been killed.
Oopsie Daisy
(4,575 posts)... you're smarter than you want me to believe.
soandso
(1,631 posts)What I know is that the official Uncommitted group of Muslim voters are on the left and probably voted that way down ballot. The other's I don't know. Probably more socially conservative. All I'm saying is that US support for Israel is personal for them, whether they see it as anti Muslim or have loved ones directly impacted. There are enough them that like any other special interest group, they believe they have the power to bring about a change in policy or, at least, get a seat at the table.
Oopsie Daisy
(4,575 posts)The vote for Harris was suppressed by certain individuals who were seeking revenge on the Democratic party, at any cost, including making matters worse for their "loved ones directly impacted". What an idiotic thing for anyone to do. Let's see how "personal" it gets with Trump in power, eh? Maybe in the future they will rethink this revenge strategy. If not they will just get more of the same, but worse.
soandso
(1,631 posts)As things stand, I don't see it happening any time soon. What lies in store for their loved ones, the middle east and, by extension, the world, I truly do not know but it's not looking good.
exmodee
(38 posts)Is it your assertion that American election systems can never be hacked? Would this not contradict every available instance of previous hacking that we have? Is it not that case that all systems can be hacked eventually?
And finally, if all systems can be hacked, shouldn't we have included a mechanism long ago that would permit the possibility of holding a second election, if crimes were demonstrably committed?
MaeScott
(902 posts)Why?
Because it would mess with whatever election schemes they already had in place.
progressoid
(50,818 posts)No thanks.
Smackdown2019
(1,265 posts)Lies and bad acts do come forth, especially when muti-bad actors are involved. When it will, everyone will be shocked and upset.
Duncan Grant
(8,561 posts)AntiFascist
(12,976 posts)but I only saw one report later in the day about how widespread the bomb threats had suddenly become in many of the battleground states.
soandso
(1,631 posts)but would imagine some were simply trolls who get off on disrupting shit. One in Georgia, OTOH, where there was a written threat, turned out to be one of the poll workers!
AntiFascist
(12,976 posts)especially considering the poor English in some of the texts. The effect was to suppress voter turnout and, indeed, fewer Democrats turned out for this election than the previous one, for various reasons.
ShazamIam
(2,728 posts)much harder to register to vote and made voting harder.
ultralite001
(1,188 posts)w/ one celebrity contender...
Cannot help but think back to PT Barnum... + the quote "There's a sucker born every minute"... + recent movies about magic.... in particular, "Now You See Me" + "Now You See Me 2"... Films whose thinly sketched characters + scattered plots rely on sleight of hand to distract audiences...
Cannot help but see similarities from their productions to America's 2024 electoral production... Consider deconstructing these events like one would develop a film or a good magic trick...
For additional thoughts, see:
Sleight of Mind: What the Neuroscience of Magic Reveals about Our Everyday Deceptions by Stephen Macknik, Susana Martinez-Conde + Sandra Blakeslee
or
Designing Miracles: Creating the Illusion of Impossibility by Darwin Ortiz
or
Leading w/ Your Head by Gary Kurtz...
All things considered, it does not seem unreasonable to think smoke + mirrors + other effects may have played a part in America's election results... on a large scale... Like making Lady Liberty disappear...
Silent Type
(7,428 posts)
LAS14
(14,816 posts)Silent Type
(7,428 posts)
B.See
(3,910 posts)moondust
(20,533 posts)likely know some tech bros who might be interested in exploring a certain "project" if asked.
Blue Owl
(54,984 posts)
Heck
(10 posts)News Links
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2024/10/pro-trump-dark-money-network-tied-to-elon-musk-behind-fake-pro-harris-campaign-scheme/
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/03/trump-infiltrate-voting-machines-georgia-2020.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/inside-georgias-effort-to-secure-voting-machines-as-experts-raise-concerns
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnewsvideo/comments/1gnxqmw/elon_musks_company_starlink_praised_by_tulare/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/ncna1112436
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/01/us-election-software-national-security-threats-00176615
JoseBalow
(5,754 posts)
Heck
(10 posts)JoseBalow
(5,754 posts)"if," huh? Ya, I'm not buying it, nice try tho. 
You don't have to agree. I can already see how much your opinion is worth.
