Maybe we should give up on the Biden-Obama Pollyanna view of Republican politicians.

[Trust_Reality]

The recent crop of Republican politicians display the lowest level of integrity I have seen in my lifetime (81 yrs). It is astonishing.

And Republicans in general, voters, of course not every single one, but many, are unbelievable as well.

I think their most astonishing feature, but not all that surprising when one looks at history, is the willingness to engage in or tolerate religion based meanness.

Religion based meanness. Isn't that something.

[SoCalDavidS]

1. We Go High

Then they shoot us out of the sky.

[pat_k]

2. We need to get better at condemning Christian Nationalism,

Last edited Wed Nov 13, 2024, 02:32 AM - Edit history (1)

... while being clear we are not condemning Christianity.

Morality is rooted in the human capacity for compassion, not this or that religious faith. And seeking to force others to comply with a religious belief they do not share isn't just Un-American, it is deeply Un-Christian.

But we know all this.

The problem is many Christians -- progressive Christians who would be our natural allies -- think we hate them because we just aren't clear that the target of our anger is the cancer on the faith that Christian Nationalism represents, not Christianity itself.

[notroot]

3. Let's not compare dicks with Evangelicans about what is, or is not, "Christian"

They'll win every time in that contest, because their followers are brainwashed fucktards.

Instead, your earlier point should be our emphasis: the "human capacity for compassion".

[The Wandering Harper]

8. one reason I dropped ties

with any kind of pagan community was how much blanket hate toward christians a lot had

[pat_k]

15. Among pro-democracy folk who claim to value diversity and inclusion...

... I am constantly dismayed at the vehemence of the anger, and yes, hatred, I see toward Christians.

I've found that some people "on our side" who wouldn't hesitate to condemn those who would profile all Muslims as terrorist or supporters of terrorism are just fine with expressions of hatred toward Christians, as if they all subscribe to a Christian Nationalist agenda.

I understand the anger at Christian Nationalism, but somewhere along the line many -- way too many -- on "our side" started operating from the assumption that all Christians are Christian Nationalists.

What I've learned in participating in Braver Angels workshops is that knee jerk assumptions lead to dismissing people and their concerns in a way that alienates them further -- and leaves "us" stressed and angry. Just as "they" are stressed and angry. Assumptions not just about religion, but that is a big one. Getting passed the assumptions and actually talking and connecting is possible. And I've learned that many of "them" have rejected our party simply because they feel so hated and rejected by "us."

I will never forget a Christian woman whose stances turned out to be actually quite progressive. At one point in the workshop, she started crying as it became clear to her that the "blues" in the workhop were very accepting of her Christian beliefs. She had believed that we hated her as a Christian. Period. She had been incredibly afraid to participate in the workshop because of it. She had been afraid to even admit she was a Christian.

It broke my heart. It was a shock. The notion that we, who believe ourselves to be inclusive, had failed to convey our acceptance of faiths of ALL types. Yes, we simultaneously believe that imposing religious beliefs in law is anti-American (and Un-Christian). A sentiment she agreed with. Since I've been on the look out for it, I find that bad mouthing Christianity is rampant among Dems.. It has become so commonplace that the notion that "we" hate all Christians has become part of our "brand" in a way that alienates people who would be natural allies. It is incredibly damaging. Somehow we need to detangle our opposition to Christian Nationalism from our acceptance of Christianity -- and every other faith or non-faith out there.

Last thing. I've found that when talking to Christians who appear to be slipping toward Christian Nationalism, it can actually be helpful to remind the person that the opposite of faith isn't doubt -- doubt is a normal part of faith. The opposite of faith is control. When we start deciding it is up to us exert control over the lives of others, we have clearly lost all faith.

[Skittles]

4. to me it's more proof that a lot of "faith" is just plain bullshit

Jesus would be appalled by the greedy old pig party.

[Karasu]

5. While I love Obama and Biden, and respect both of them greatly...

...I personally have never subscribed to that view of Republicans. At all. I've always seen them for what they are. I just sincerely hoped there would never be a "Trump" figure to give them free reign to take the mask all the way off.

[Rhiannon12866]

6. TFG gave them permission with his message of violence and hate

We've seen his "supporters" act on it with their threats, attacks and violence. And now that it's out, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

[0rganism]

7. "Religion based meanness" has been shockingly common for thousands of years

I mean, not trying to normalize specific instances of it, but... sorry, it appears to be working as intended.

[Blue Full Moon]

9. 43 yrs ago put down religion never regretted

The last was a Baptist church. The preacher would give sermons and an announcement from the republicans. We were trying to make it on my husband's salary. I was told to go there because I was put in for a position that paid well. They hired people from that church. 3 small children and the money didn't go far had to rob Peter to pay Paul. We came on to a really bad time. Went to talk to the Pastor to see if we could get some help. He thought we weren't living right because we were poor. He went through a list of things he thought was the problem. Drinking, no drugs, no, gambling, no, and finally, women, my husband was paying hookers, no. I remember just looking at the pastor and thinking how in the world could he be that stupid. Years of religion, United Methodist, Seventh Day Adventist, Worldwide Church of God, Apostolic, Jehovah Witness. I don't know how I escaped their clutches. Resistant to the BS. Maybe just because I was an avid reader. But now here I am thinking about going to United Methodist that is still open minded to try to blend in.

[Trust_Reality]

11. This is biblical: The truth shall set you free"

I am free. It is like fresh air.

[Deminpenn]

10. Politicians sometimes have to work together

Some of them even get along well as Jeffries and Johnson apparently do. Obama and Biden view Rs from this political perspective.

However, courting registered Republican voters doesn't work. Rs will, with few exceptions, vote in lockstep. They will vote for whoever has the R next to their name. It's not racial either. They'll vote for an AfAm or other minority R against a white D every time. See, Scott, Tim and Donalds, Byron for examples.

[Trust_Reality]

12. I agree that there is a lot of truth to what you are saying.

[mr715]

14. Didn't know Jeffries and Johnson were friends

Obama had a massive majority and was desperate for consensus. Biden leveraged much more adroitly, honestly.

But they don't have to shake hands with him. There is this sort of element of taming and ingratiating the President-Elect to curtail his worst impulses, but comon. That doesn't work. Never has, never will. He is, since Speaker Johnson was mentioned, the Whore of Babylon.

[mr715]

13. The lack of integrity is nothing new.

Dennis Hassert was an all out pedophile rapist. And Speaker. Before him we had Newt, that paragon of moral virtue.

And I agree - there is a consistent, insidious through-line of religious inspired meanness. I'd submit there is a fair bit of that on the far left, 3rd party microcoalitions.

It probably isn't a popular opinion, but I also feel that President Biden bears much responsibility and his legacy will be relegated to a footnote. Brief interegnum.


Buuuuuut change can also come fast. I don't think justice is dead, I just think she's sorely hurting.



Regards
MR