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drray23

(7,965 posts)
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:41 AM Nov 16

Our constitution is so full of loopholes for a would be dictator to use.

For example, even thought there is supposed to be three coequal branches, the powers of the presidency can be abused to the point that it overtakes the others.
Take the idea of recess appointments. Now, the rule is that if the senate wants to adjourn for more than 3 days, they need to get the consent of the house and vice-versa.
Already there, if they are in cohoot with Trump there could just adjourn for one day to let him do recess appointments.

Let's assume they resist this. Trump can actually adjourn both chambers. It's in the constitution:

If the two houses cannot agree to adjourn, the Constitution gives the President power to adjourn them


You can read that with comments about it at:
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S5-C4-1/ALDE_00013353/


Here is the thing:

Article I, Section 5, Clause 4:

Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

In Article I, Section 4, Clause 2, the Framers stipulated when Congress would assemble and begin conducting its official business.1 In Article I, Section 5, Clause 4, the Framers gave the two chambers of Congress—the House of Representatives and the Senate—authority to adjourn.2 The House and Senate can use this power independent of each other subject to the requirement that if one Chamber wants to adjourn for more than three days, it requires the other’s consent.3 If the two houses cannot agree to adjourn, the Constitution gives the President power to adjourn them.4 Article II, Section 3, provides in part in Case of Disagreement between [the House of Representatives and the Senate], with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, [the President] may adjourn them, to such Time as he shall think proper.5

In his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, Justice Joseph Story reasoned that by empowering Congress to determine when to adjourn, the Framers prevented the President from using the royal governor tactic of squelching dissent by adjourning colonial legislatures.6 Consequently, Article I, Section 5, Clause 4 checked the President’s power over Congress.7 Likewise, by requiring the two chambers of Congress to agree to any adjournment longer than three days, Clause 4 prevented either house from frustrating the legislative process by adjourning. In addition, by authorizing the President to resolve disagreements between the two chambers on when they would adjourn, the Framers created an incentive for the chambers to cooperate.



Does anyone believe for a second that Trump won't violate the "norms" and do it? If so, I have a bridge to sell you.



5 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Our constitution is so full of loopholes for a would be dictator to use. (Original Post) drray23 Nov 16 OP
If we ever have elections again and are able to begin to reconstruct a Republic CousinIT Nov 16 #1
The people that wrote the Constitution doc03 Nov 16 #2
Godel's Loophole CrispyQ Nov 16 #3
Interesting read. I never knew about this. drray23 Nov 16 #4
I'm starting to think that the founding fathers were a bit nave. John Farmer Nov 16 #5

CousinIT

(10,210 posts)
1. If we ever have elections again and are able to begin to reconstruct a Republic
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:46 AM
Nov 16

(won't happen in my lifetime), we need to put VICIOUS TEETH in the Constitution such that EVERY TACTIC Trump used to skirt Constitutional rules, norms, and procedures is NOT possible without POTUS being REMOVED. Impeachment is NOT ENOUGH. There must be another process to remove an authoritarian who shits on the Constitution and refuses to adhere to the norms and regular order of the gov't - with reasonable exceptions in emergencies which are WELL DEFINED and which he cannot implement alone.

doc03

(36,711 posts)
2. The people that wrote the Constitution
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:49 AM
Nov 16

didn't know there would be a Mitch McConnel or a rigged SCOTUS.

CrispyQ

(38,273 posts)
3. Godel's Loophole
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 10:50 AM
Nov 16
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_Loophole

snip...

Background

When Gödel was studying to take his American citizenship test in 1947, he came across what he described as an "inner contradiction" in the U.S. Constitution. At the time, he was at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey, where he was good friends with Albert Einstein and Oskar Morgenstern. Gödel told Morgenstern about the flaw in the constitution, which, he said, would allow the United States to legally become a fascist state. Morgenstern tried to convince Gödel that this was very unlikely to happen, but Gödel remained very concerned about it. He was an Austrian by birth and, having lived through the 1933 coup d'état and escaped from Nazi Germany after the Anschluss, had reason to be concerned about living in a fascist dictatorship. Morgenstern had a number of discussions with Gödel about his concerns, and also told Einstein about them.[2][3]

more...

At the courthouse, witnesses would normally remain outside of the room during a citizenship examination, but because Einstein, a celebrity, was involved, and because the judge, Phillip Forman, had administered the oath of citizenship to Einstein, all three men were invited in. In the course of the examination, Forman asked Gödel what the government of Austria was, to which he replied: "It was a republic, but the constitution was such that it finally was changed into a dictatorship." The judge commented that this could not happen in the U.S., and Gödel responded "Oh, yes, I can prove it", but the judge declined to pursue the matter.[2][3][4]

more...

Since the exact nature of Gödel's Loophole has never been published, what it is, precisely, is not known. In a 2012 paper, "Gödel's Loophole", F. E. Guerra-Pujol speculates that the problem involves Article V, which describes the process by which the Constitution can be amended. The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.[1][2]

Other writers have speculated that Gödel may have had other aspects of the Constitution in mind as well, including the abuse of gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and the presidential pardon.[5]


The judge commented that this could not happen in the U.S...

Too many American's think this, too.

John Farmer

(211 posts)
5. I'm starting to think that the founding fathers were a bit nave.
Sat Nov 16, 2024, 12:01 PM
Nov 16

It's clear that they didn't anticipate anyone like Trump ever getting elected.

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