A few things about cutting SS and Medicare

[moniss]

that the MAGA morons don't get are that when you remove that money from people who every month spend it on things that it has a major impact to the economy. Retail sales will tank for example, money flowing into health care related companies will tank etc. Then the multiplier effect also kicks in as those businesses have less need to spend on any expansion because their business is shrinking and not expanding. Because they aren't expanding the construction companies have less revenue. Because there is less construction of new facilities there is a decline in revenue for companies supplying building materials. Because there are fewer buildings being built there is less revenue for companies supplying office furniture etc. and the list goes on.

Then of course there are all of the jobs that get cut because of the deep declines. When you cut this spending it will send the economy into a deep downward spiral and the recession will be long and brutal. But I'm sure that the MAGA morons will claim it was the fault of "all of that spending Biden did".

Government program approval, annual budget request or continuing resolution, actual spending/project request and finally disbursement/allocation of funds are not all the same thing but MAGA morons and the GQP leaders over the many years have successfully, with the help of a compliant and ignorant media, convinced people that they are all the same and so they believe that when the dollar amount for a program is passed and signed into law that it means the money has been spent. In fact it might be years before any significant funds are disbursed.

For historical context one of the big benefits back in the beginning of Social Security was the major boost to the economy because of the monthly spending by recipients. FDR had the brains to realize it would happen. We know that this MAGA crowd is an "intelligence optional" club.

[Walleye]

1. Most of these guys are thinking with their gonads

[LiberalArkie]

49. Fine, freeze a sample and remove them until they fully fund child support for any possible children

[CousinIT]

2. My jackass siblings and their equally stupid kids have been voting MAGAt for decades.

And you bet your ass they will blame DEMOCRATS WHEN Social Security can't pay full benefits and/or is just gutted or privatized. Medicare too.

[jaxexpat]

13. I know your pain

[kerry-is-my-prez]

62. My Republican brother who couldn't stand Trump, but then voted for him.

He denied that Trump was “all that bad.” He just could not bring himself to vote for a Democrat. I think he thinks he’s “like a classy, rich person” by voting Republican. Plus, my parents were “super-Republican.” Ironically, he was on Medicaid and SSDI that I helped him get on as a Sicial Wirker. He now found a somewhat wealthy woman to marry, so he won’t get too hurt for a while - until she dumps him because the only thing he can bring to the relationship is sex. I think he is still on Medicaid so it will be up to her and my niece to eventually support him with his medical bills. My niece is a liberal, I’m pretty sure.

[rampartd]

3. "brother, can you spare a bitcoin?"

from the billionaire perspective a depression may be a feature.

[LakeVermilion]

4. Funny how the rich guys always get to make the decisions for the rest of us.

I have lots of ideas about social security, but they usually don't ask the participants.

Just sayin'.

[moniss]

6. Years ago

when I was getting out of high school ( a time when the rocks, trees and dirt were young) I knew a young guy who graduated 2 years ahead of me. He had gone to diesel machinist training. The guy was working at night and doing his classes during the day. He was making good money. But at that young age I had never heard of the SS cap.

One day in June he announced to me that he was happy his check would be bigger from work. I thought he got a raise and I asked him to explain. He told me he had hit the SS cap for the year and his pay was no longer subject to FICA. It hasn't gotten better as far as funding SS at proper levels.

[jaxexpat]

14. Huh? Can you clarify for the concept challenged. You lost me.

[LakeVermilion]

17. People who make, let's say $250,000 per year, pay FICA (Social Security tax) on the front earnings until...

they reach the max that can be taxed. (Let's say its around $120,000) Once paying FICA on earnings up to $120,000, FICA is not applied to additional income. In a way, its a pay raise for them, in that they do not pay FICA on the remaining $130,000.

[Dave says]

19. IIRC the FICA maximum for tax and benefit calculations is about $169,000 now.

[LakeVermilion]

25. Thanks, I was too lazy to search for the amount.

[paleotn]

60. Make it 200K and you've fixed SS's funding problem.

Reagan raised it. I remember it well. He and Tip O'Neil couldn't stop patting each other on the back for doing it.

[CousinIT]

74. I read somewhere MAGAts won't vote for that now.

So I’m guessing that unless more people vote Dem and get a Dem Congress + POTUS (IF we still have elections) - it’s not going to happen and we only have about 5-6 years to get something done.

This is probably the best fix for the issue — which means they won’t do it.

[yardwork]

93. And it wouldn't hurt anybody.

Very few of those people making $200k+ would notice if their FICA continued being withdrawn in the closing months of the year.

[jaxexpat]

38. Oh, okay. I always understood that to be the case. Is it not common knowledge?

[yardwork]

92. Nothing real is common knowledge anymore.

We're dealing with a country full of misinformed morons.

[wanderer54]

5. Food Stamps (SNAP)

Food Stamps (SNAP) benefits do the same. Grocery stores do many millions of dollars of sales each month. Farmers can produce more and sell more.
House and Senate Agriculture Committees are well aware of the value not only to the recipient.

[moniss]

9. Yes indeed and sadly

they will demonize the recipients in political ads etc. while voting for the benefits because they know it benefits their constituent farmers etc.

[orwell]

32. Food stamps...

...are disguised transfer payments to farmers.

As most "family farms" are Big Ag you get the picture.

I have nothing against food stamps for needy families but it is also a corporate ag "gift" as well.

Just like foreign aid for military expenditures is transfer payment to US military contractors.

So much for the welfare queen arguments...

[SnoopDog]

7. What you are missing is that...

They are after is the SS and Medicare Trust Fund. All they want is every last dollar in our government coffers.

[moniss]

10. Not a matter of missing it.

The subjects are two different things.

[jaxexpat]

16. 'fraid your exactly right. Congratulations, I see you as officially a member of the progressive nation.

[ZonkerHarris]

26. this. it's about theft.

[usaf-vet]

40. YOU HAVE IT EXACTLY RIGHT! It drive them nuts that all that money is sitting there & THEY can't get THEIR cut... period!

[ProudMNDemocrat]

8. MAGAts fail to realize that the economy is dependent on SPENDING..

It is NOT the rich that creates jobs or stimulates an economy.

It's CONSUMERS who need products, thus creating demand. Demand requires workers. That is how it works.

[moniss]

12. Very well put and

something that has been proven over and over.

[luvallpeeps]

29. I've tried to explain this to my coworker's, friends and inlaws .

They can’t seem to grasp the simplicity I guess.

[ProudMNDemocrat]

68. Ir doesn't require a Rocket Scientist to figure that out.

Your circle flunked Economics 101.

[CousinIT]

75. MAGAts are notorious for being simultaneously ignorant and evil n/t

[Picaro]

11. Everything that's being proposed is economic suicide

Mass deportations? Cutting Medicare SSN.

Just those would produce a depression. Not recession. Depression.

This isn’t even considering the human catastrophe all these things would create.

A government declaring war on its own citizens. That is what is being proposed.

He kept telling us he would exact revenge against a nation that rejected him.

Utter madness.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

39. Exactly.

[Emile]

94. Bingo

[2naSalit]

15. It's sounding more like...

Covid wasn't enough, they want a mass die off so they can call it the rapture.

[Lonestarblue]

18. Another hidden gem that Republicans have in mind is Medicaid limits.

A substantial part of the Medicaid budget is paid for nursing home care for those who do not have the private assets to pay for such care. Republicans plan to propose a lifetime cap on Medicaid funds, so if poor people use Medicaid for years and then need extensive nursing home care, they may hit the lifetime cap fairly quickly. Given how much Republicans think that poor people deserve nothing, the cap will likely be low if they can get it passed.

[The Madcap]

21. The strange thing

is that they'll be killing off a large part of their base, especially in rural areas.

[dchill]

48. I have begun to suspect that ...

... they're just not smart enough to understand that.

[moniss]

22. Excellent point about the caps

and they have enacted things like this in various social programs over the years. I can remember in Wisconsin when they capped General Assistance by length of time and dollar amount. They didn't have jobs for people but they openly said they hoped to drive people to leave Wisconsin.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

41. With Project 2025, they plan on getting rid of Medicaid.

That will be the first to go under the “budget cutting.”

[Skittles]

59. yup

the intended victims have zero power

[byronius]

20. Idiots.

[FakeNoose]

23. US farm subsidies need to be cut long before Medicare and Social Security get cut

What a HUGE waste the farm subsidies are ... and yet the Repukes will never vote them out. The farmers would scream from here to Timbuktu and no Repuke incumbent would ever get re-elected.

The farmers are what? ... maybe than 3% of the US population.

[keep_left]

35. Remember when Trump had to shovel even *more* payments to the farmers...

...because he thought that trade wars with China were "easy to win"? The Trump regime enacted a bunch of tariffs against China, including some very ill-advised agricultural tariffs; then as the kids say, he fucked around and found out. Trump was forced to buy off a whole lot of farmers (pork and soybean in particular) with that little stunt.

[Old Crank]

24. A 30% cut in payments will be about half a trilion dollars

The yearly payments are about 1.5 Trillion yearly for all three areas it pays.
If the trust fund runs out payments with be about 30% less.
Pulling 500,000 billion from the economy will hurt.

SSAN data:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.ssa.gov/news/press/factsheets/basicfact-alt.pdf

[PortTack]

27. Yup!

[lastlib]

28. MAGAts know how to shoot.....

they just don't know how to miss their feet. All these things are just shooting themselves in the foot. Of course they're also killing the rest of us.

[global1]

30. I Guess None Of The MAGA'S Are On SS or Medicare.....

It's like they think they will be unaffected by cuts or any ending of these programs.

Won't they be surprised!!!!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

44. I worked with a wealthy Realtor who said that her social security check was pretty much a bonus to be used

“for fun.” She would say things like “I don’t know why they bother sending those checks - it’s so stupid.” She had no concept of the fact there are millions of people who rely on it. She made over $350,000 a year - so social security $24,000- $45,000 was not much to her. To a multi-millionaire, it is a drop in the bucket. Believe me, anyone who is wealthy is not going to care about social security. Medicare is more likely a worry to them.

[global1]

66. Not All MAGA'S Are That Wealthy.....

Many will be feeling the pain of losing these programs.

Also - I'm sure there are non-MAGA'S that share the same sentiment that you lady expressed.

[OldBaldy1701E]

91. "Also - I'm sure there are non-MAGA'S that share the same sentiment that you lady expressed."

LOTS of them!

MAGA may boast some wealthy members, but not all of them. Yet, these 'I got mine screw you' types are prevalent no matter where you go.

I have said it before. A lot of what is going on in this country is not partisan, but wealth-derived. And, this is a major issue we face. Either we are a nation of equality, or we are not. These wealthy people always get their way because we have been trained to worship them due to their riches. Then, when we need them to step up? To 'share sacrifice'? To part with some of that wealth to aid society as a whole?



I am pretty sick of it. How about you?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

79. More to the point, apparently none of them have elderly mothers

who rely on SS.

[BidenRocks]

31. One statistic to pay attention to

will be the suicide rate from defunded veterans and seniors.
I keep thinking of the M*A*S*H intro.

[moniss]

43. Sadly that is one statistic I am

familiar with especially when it comes to people under financial stress. Years ago I did disability research and it was shocking to see the percentage increase in suicides for people with disabilities facing financial stress versus those with resources. The untold or seldom remembered/told story of the drastic, worst years of the '70's through the '90's for farmers was the increase in suicides. There were plenty of widows telling the tale of finding their husbands hanging in the barn or dead from gunshot. They so deeply felt they had failed their ancestors and the ones currently depending on them. So before the bank could take the farm they would commit suicide and sometimes there would be a life insurance policy which could give the wife some money to go on somehow.

[calimary]

33. Sounds like another episode of "Be Careful What You Wish For".

Maybe MAGA needs to have to take it in the shorts, in the extreme, in order to learn a lesson like this.

And heads-up: EVERYTHING in the messaging has to be a RELENTLESS pile-on. Both ON AND OFF the air. On CONSTANT repeat, EVERYWHERE, and NEVER-ENDING.

[gulliver]

34. They also might have to help their grandparents (or lose help from their grandparents) nt

[MissouriDem47]

36. Welcome to Great Depression II

if Trump and his administration does half of what they want to do.

[WarGamer]

37. no one is cutting ss and medicare for those already receiving benefits.

Anything else is scare mongering.

NO ONE has proposed a penny of cut for current recipients.

[moniss]

42. Nonsense you apparently didn't

listen to Musk when he talked about it and how it was going to be painful. Others have proposed means testing which is absolutely about cutting existing benefits. Earned benefits by the way. Not bestowed by anybody.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

45. Yep - a 30% cut was mentioned, I believe. And what about people 60 and under?

[WarGamer]

47. link to a proposed 30% cut in SS/MC... I'll wait.

[Skittles]

69. if nothing is done about SS the immediate cut is projected to be 21%

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/social-security-benefits-cut-insolvency-kamala-harris-donald-trump/

repukes not only will not FIX it, they will SPEED IT UP by eliminating some taxes needed to fund SS

WAKE UP

[moniss]

50. I'm pretty sure

those receiving SSI will see cuts. In the past what they've done when they want to "cut" without coming out and saying it is they will make people re-qualify for SSI. They'll deny the re-qualification and make people go through a lengthy appeals process. During the whole time you receive no payment. The VA used to do it too. So they'll claim they are "controlling costs".

Years ago I knew people in medical payments processing for Medicare and the processor would "control" the flow of approved claims, at the request of higher ups, by making the medical facility rebill over and over. They would claim a service code was wrong etc. but needless to say it could take months and months to get a payment when they wanted to slow down.

[dwayneb]

80. All we need is for the billionaires to pay their fair share into SS

A CEO earning $20 million a year pays Social Security taxes on roughly 1 percent of their income, while a worker earning under the cap of $168,600 pays Social Security taxes on 100 percent of their income.

[WarGamer]

46. link to where he mentioned cutting SS/MC... I'll wait.

[FreeForm73]

52. Agreed, from what I saw

The 35% cut would be for those that took benefits at 62
Also, all born after 1960 have to wait until they are 67, now
They want to raise that age to 69

Oh, joy

[WarGamer]

55. you're referring to the RSC Budget proposal... which affects future retirees

It would never become law

[FreeForm73]

64. Exactly n/t

[moniss]

58. Since their proposal is

going to exacerbate the Trust Fund issue then according to Forbes it will result in a 23% benefit cut increasing poverty among the elderly. So they are talking about current recipients. You can hang your hat on their denials and their claims that they will "protect" the program but everybody knows about their lies in order to get elected. Simply put their proposals regarding funding will necessitate cuts to benefits for those receiving them and hasten the looming insolvency of the fund.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresaghilarducci/2024/10/21/trumps-plans-would-undermine-social-security-by-23-trillion/

[Skittles]

67. because we only care about "current recipients"

WTF

[WarGamer]

70. Are you in favor of those born after 1990 receive full benefits at 69 instead of 67?

If it keeps the system solvent?

[Skittles]

71. no, I am not

because it discriminates against people who do heavy labor work

[Captain Stern]

85. I don't get how that would keep the system solvent.

Someone born in 1990 wouldn't turn 67 until 2057, so it seems like raising the age when they could start receiving benefits wouldn't have any effect at all until then.

As things stand, social security is running at a deficit. More money is being paid out in benefits than we are paying in. The difference is being made up by the federal government paying back the money that was borrowed from SS during the years where the program ran at a surplus. It is projected that all of that money will be paid back in 2034.

If nothing is done before then, to either increase SS revenue, decrease SS spending, or both, people who are receiving SS benefits in 2034 will take an immediate cut of about 20%.

Unfortunately, if raising the age we can receive benefits is going to be part of the solution, it's going to have to be applied to folks who were born way before 1990. I think we're talking more like 1960.

[WarGamer]

86. can't be 1960. Many are already on SS... and planned life for retirement

[paleotn]

51. Was pondering a similar theme yesterday. You see the full picture and why this bluster won't ever happen.

Oh, they'll trim around the edges but the rest is just posturing. The fact is, the true rulers of America, the monied interests, are so heavily invested in the status quo, they cannot allow much if any of that to happen. They would lose fortunes. The same applies to the tariff bullshit and rounding up millions of undocumented workers. The US meat industry would collapse if that happened.

The thing about Hitler was he was good for the German monied interests. He spent all the capital Germany could raise and steal on military expansion and German industrialists made a fortune off of it. Our own version of Hitler wants to take money OUT of their pockets. They won't let that happen lightly. They will fight back.

The irony I thought about yesterday....the monied interests we all love to beat on, and rightfully so, may be the ones that save American governmental structures and indirectly, democracy itself. Simply because they're so heavily invested in it.

[moniss]

63. The problem is also that they will

put all of the tariff repercussions on the backs of average people by way of higher prices and requiring us to pay the tax package for economic assistance to domestic industries that are harmed by the tariff effects. This is what happened the last time when China responded to this with shifting purchases of ag commodities. We ended up having to pay billions to producers to keep them afloat.

Tariffs are the uneducated impression borne in the years of Western Colonialism that we can impose things on people and they'll have no recourse but to take it and then submit to our demands. It's not the case in the modern world. China has shown that to us several times over the last decades. They can inflict massive pain to our producers by simply buying from others. It's not a matter of needing to eliminate all purchasing. Just shifting 20% or so to other countries has a massive impact to a low profit margin heavily subsidized industry like production of grains.

They're called "tariff wars" for a good reason. It can escalate to the point where it's a matter of who bleeds to death first in a sense. The lunacy of the billionaire class and their political servants they purchase is the idea that they can decimate and industry and turn things on and off like water faucets. The knowledge of how to farm and grow things is not just some 60 day course in community college. Once you suffer significant losses in the availability of those who know how it is not just a snap of the fingers to get it back.

[kimbutgar]

53. i just wonder how the right wing media infrastructure will twist

themselves into a pretzel trying to blame the Democratic party.

Sadly they have now perfected how to cheat in elections and they can blame the Dems even though they crashed the economy.

We are so screwed.

[Dave Id]

54. "It's the economy stupid."

Then when the economy takes a dump because of SS and Medicare cuts, Replicans will lose the next presidential election (if there will be one) and the Democrats will have to clean up the mess AGAIN. Rinse and repeat. When will voters see this ongoing ridiculous cycle and quit voting against their own interests?

[Skittles]

72. so fucking SICK of cleaning up repuke mess

WHEN WILL THE FUCKING VOTERS CATCH ON

[MadameButterfly]

96. What if there are no more elections

(that are honest) and propaganda to blame the wrong people.

It never ends. We get Putin's Russia.

The problem is Trump doesn't listen to anyone except crazies and has lost money all his life. That's why he had to become a criminal and then depend on Russai and the presidency to maintain his lifestyle. He can't do the math to make an honest profit. Now that is going to be applied to the whole country.

[Dan]

56. I'm sure someone has already identified that

When you strip Social Security from people, someone has to pick up the slack for taking care of those folks. Maybe, their children or grandchildren?

[moniss]

65. One of the problems we have is the wealthy

clamoring to gut SS and Medicare see no reason why someone working at McDonald's might have a problem taking care of Grandma. It's the same with daycare/childcare. They just assume that a woman should certainly be able to work that minimum wage job and that she has plenty of relatives around to take care of the kids for free or she should just "hire a babysitter for 50 cents an hour" like they saw on TV one time on "Father Knows Best".

The real facts that matter that everyday people face the "rule makers" know nothing about. They do their best to avoid knowing by creating myths among themselves like "welfare queens driving Cadillacs" that let's them off the hook in their minds for any responsibility or action because they use those myths to denigrate people and blame them for the circumstances they're in but were largely created and controlled by the wealthy.

People used to excuse slavery this way and child labor.

[liberal N proud]

57. MAGA are not economically literate

Hell they may not even be literate at all.

[Mr.Bee]

61. Psst; I don't think they know what 'Literate' means...

"Literate?? You mean like WOKE??"

[liberal N proud]

73. Only if the cult told them would they know.

[yellow dahlia]

76. That's the bottom line. Right!?

[Takket]

77. can i ask what inspired this OP? were cuts announced today?

[SleeplessinSouth]

78. is this true?

When Democrats rammed through the Inflation Reduction Act during the days they controlled all of Washington, D.C., it ignited a chain reaction that led to higher Medicare costs for America’s senior citizens.

“Nearly two years after its passage, the IRA has diverted nearly $260 billion from the projected Medicare ‘savings’ to pay for special interest handouts like large tax credits for costly electric vehicles, enormous subsidies paid to big health insurer-PBM corporations, and funding health care programs for illegal immigrants,” Ron Fitzwater, Chief Executive Officer of the Missouri Pharmacy Association, wrote in an Op-Ed in the Missouri Times.

😳😳😳😳

[moniss]

81. Ron is full of crap.

[moniss]

82. The subject of drastic budget cuts amounting to 2 trillion

was stated as the goal by Musk. They also have spoken about other tax changes which would have an impact on the SS fund and Forbes for example has pointed out how those changes would shorten the life of the fund even further and necessitate large cuts to benefits. This SS and Medicare cuts have been a subject on DU over the last few days. My post is one.

[keep_left]

83. I guess that the "firehose of falsehood" approach of the Trump regime is working...

...and to be fair, it is indeed a challenge to keep up with all the crap that is spewed every day by Trump and his cronies. And that is the goal; Steve Bannon called this strategy "flooding the zone with shit". Apparently, a number of DUers have forgotten some key recent events (which is what Bannon wants).

Nevertheless, a few days ago, Eloon was heard in an audio clip posted to X calling for "severe hardship" for just about everyone, in exchange for a promised "future prosperity". It's the old Nazi "useless eaters" line, just dressed up a bit and marketed better. Eloon basically called everyone who's not a billionaire a "taker" and more or less called for the impoverishment of most Americans. The billionaire class apparently now feels free to go completely mask-off, which is a bad sign for the stability of the country, because he's basically saying that society doesn't matter. It's the old Maggie Thatcher line "there is no such thing as society", except that these people now really believe their own hype (Thatcher most definitely did not).

https://democraticunderground.com/100219711469#post5
https://democraticunderground.com/100219639221
https://democraticunderground.com/100219639221#post3
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219623119#post19

[moniss]

84. Yes and it harks back to the

Herbert Hoover years. The rich weren't out there working at the soup kitchens. It is the ignorant belief that they can do and have the right to do anything to anybody. Lawyers cleaning up the mess they leave. But popular uprising, civil disobedience etc. are things this crop of billionaires like Bezos, Musk etc. are too young to have experienced. So they have no idea.

People who do know understand the power of resistance. It never manifests major strength and results right away. It has to build. But it can build faster these days than in the past because of rapid communication. Back in 1958 we might not here about something happening for a month or more until word got out. Word gets out right away today. Organizing is easier today also because of that widespread, rapid communication. The powers that be know this also and they will look for ways to repress the ability for resistance to communicate, organize and implement resistance. They did before and they will again.

[Martin Eden]

87. My father (born 1922) explained it to me a long time ago

The difference between R's and D's on the economy:

The R's espouse the theory that if business owners have plenty of money, they will produce goods the public wants to buy.

The D's understand that when people have money to spend, the economy will thrive because business owners will find ways to get that money.

Disposable income in more hands is the first requirement.

[moniss]

88. Well put and I don't remember where I first heard this other

way of saying it but it goes "A dollar in the hands of a poor man does more good than a dollar in the hands of a rich man".

[Martin Eden]

89. Thanks, I hadn't heard that before. Makes a lot of sense.

The rich hoard their money, and shelter it in offshore accounts.

For an economy to thrive, money needs to circulate.

[Emile]

95. Exactly, demand from consumers create jobs and fuel the economy.

Capitalists don't create jobs, they capitalize on demand. Anyone invested in the market knows this.

[Emile]

90. Rick Scott who defrauded Medicare and Medicaid out of billions

was pushed to replace Mitch McConnell as Senate Majority Leader. This is Trump's way of draining the swamp?

Wake the fuck up stupid people who voted for this shit. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot for the entertainment of the wealthy.

[keep_left]

97. Rec