Ask Biden to recognize officially the State of Palestine and get back our hostages

[David Boyle]

The Gaza war goes on, with, sadly, Israelis and Palestinians (and Americans) suffering/held hostage/dying. What can we do? (And I'd recommend not taking revenge on the Uncommitted movement or other non-supporters of Kamala, cf. the recent General Discussion post "After All Of Their Disrespect, They Are Now Begging For Joe Biden's Help!!" re Gaza etc., at https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219721180 .)

This post isn't recommending or discussing an arms embargo, but rather. mentioning a much more moderate and long-term option. Of course, it's longtime U.S. policy to support a two-state solution, but we haven't formally recognized the State of Palestine yet -- even though the Vatican, to name one party, did so back in 2015.
On that note, see the June 2024 David Hoffman The Hill article, "US recognition of a Palestinian state could change everything", at https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4718181-us-recognition-of-a-palestinian-state-could-change-everything/ , saying that if

"the United States were to recognize a Palestinian state, it would be a political tsunami that would likely topple Netanyahu’s extremist government, as a majority of Israelis are clamoring for... With a likely cease fire, the return of hostages, and prospects of a regional rapprochement between Israel and Saudi Arabia... It would be the bold, decisive act that would secure President Biden’s place in history."

Indeed, while formal recognition may be good in itself, it may also help in getting out our 7 American hostages held by Hamas: 4 live ones, Edan Alexander, Sagui Dekel-Chen, Omer Neutra, Keith Siegel, and the remains of 3 more, Itay Chen, Gad Haggai, and Judy Weinstein, of blessed memory, z”l, ז״ל. (Maybe even help release all the other hostages)

So, here are links for you to contact Joe Biden and Kamala Harris:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/share/

https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/vicepresident/

Here's even a short template for you (tweak as you will):

"Dear President Biden [or Vice President Harris], please have the White House immediately officially recognize the State of Palestine, as the Vatican did in 2015. This may help bring justice for Palestine, relieve Israel of the burden of occupation, and create goodwill for America leading to the release of the seven U.S. hostages, and hopefully all hostages, in Gaza. You would be courageous and right to create Mideast justice and get back our hostages now, rather than leave it to Donald Trump's questionable competence.
Thank you,
Sincerely, [you]"

If the U.S. recognized Palestine, then Great Britain and many other countries may do the same thing. (And the more nations recognize Palestine, Trump may be more reluctant to de-recognize it.)
Moreover, if the U.S. recognizes Palestine, as have the Vatican and so many others, everyone may benefit, including Israel, who would eventually be free from occupying dangerous land in Palestine and losing more soldiers and antagonizing world opinion. (Of course, decent people also support Israel's right to be free from terrorism; may the horror of October 7 never happen again.)

That's it. We may all feel held hostage by Trump, but you can persuade Biden to take steps which may free our 7 Gaza hostages and make the two-state solution happen. God bless America, and the Mideast.

[David Boyle]

1. Again, this post isn't asking for an arms embargo, or even a ceasefire

Of course, if you write the White House, you can ask for, or condemn, an arms embargo, or a ceasefire. Or say whatever you want.

I'm keeping it sort of minimal for my part: officially recognize Palestine, get out the hostages. May even work.

[keithbvadu2]

2. Hamas says they don't know where all the hostages are. They kill one every so often. They know.

[David Boyle]

3. They're not nice people

But, unfortunately, even bad people may have to be negotiated with.

[David Boyle]

4. Shalom, salaam, see you later in a better place for us all

I tried to make this post respectful to people on many different sides, and with an option of moving our government to do something productive; of course, if people prefer a "F&%$ you if you were with the Uncommitted movement" message, I guess they prefer that. It doesn't seem productive to me, though.

[tritsofme]

5. Who would lead this so-called state?

Abbas, the “president” of the PA, now in year 17 of his 5 year term?

Hamas perhaps? They are the elected government of Gaza, and would be the odds-on favorites to win any new elections held in the Palestinian territories today.

And frankly, they should not be rewarded with such recognition after waging the 10/7 attacks, it will demonstrate that brutal terrorism serves their political ends.

This is definitely not going to happen, thankfully.

[David Boyle]

6. New blood happens

Netanyahu may not be optimal leadership, but there are other Israelis.

Too, Palestinian leadership has often been disappointing, but that doesn't mean that no leaders could possibly exist.

People may have doubted that Israel could be a viable state too...

[tritsofme]

7. Doesn't that need to be resolved before there is a "state"? Or is this recognition more just akin to a participation

trophy? And really just more performative than anything else?

[David Boyle]

9. Interesting observations

Once again, many countries have recognized Palestine.

Is there a performative element? Maybe. That doesn't mean recognition is meaningless, though. (The "participation trophy" jab is amusing, but maybe recognition's more meaningful than that...)

[Mossfern]

13. I'm sorry,

but I think you're being naive.
One cannot "believe" that better people will take over.

The right wing has pretty much taken over in Israel (rant about that another time) But there may yet be hope.
There are very few Palestinians that will accept the existence of Israel. Please cite some that do - an article, a quote, a link?

[David Boyle]

14. Quora article

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-Palestinians-who-support-Israel-or-any-Israelis-who-support-Palestine

Mentions some support for existence of Israel.

[Mossfern]

18. Of course Palestinians who are citizens of Israel

But I didn't see much evidence of Palestinians living in Gaza or the West Bank accepting the existence of Israel.
Even so, there are pockets of movements advocating for peace between the two cultures, I don't know what the opinion of Palestinians in these groups. The best would have been a two state solution, but it was turned down by Palestinians for somewhat legitimate reasons. It should have been contiguous land, not split up.

If only they had stayed in place when the Arab states attacked Israel decades ago instead of fleeing, hoping that Israel would be destroyed. Those that didn't flee enjoy Israeli citizenship and even join the IDF.
Why is it that if a Jewish person happened to wander into Palestinian territory it was tantamount to a death sentence for them. How many Jews were allowed to live in Gaza (after they left or were forcibly taken out by Israel)

You have great optimism, and that's good, but at this point in time, not realistic.

[David Boyle]

23. Some truth to this

Palestinians have made mistakes, of course.

I may be less optimistic than you think (heh heh). Different possibilities may work out if we're lucky, though...

[Beastly Boy]

16. In 2005, when Israel dismantled all settlements in Gaza And unilaterally disengaged from Gaza,

Remember the first thing that happened.?

Palestinians went to war with Palestinians.

And do you remember which side prevailed? New blood. The rest is history, and we are still paying for it..

[David Boyle]

22. Yes, there is some bad history.

But "hope springs eternal..."

[NickB79]

93. Hamas actively assasinates political rivals and dissidents in Gaza

They won't be voted out peacefully. The only way Hamas doesn't run Gaza is through war, either with Israel killing them or a civil war where the Palestinian people do.

[David Boyle]

95. Useful observation

Thanks.

[David Boyle]

8. Too, "so-called state" may be deemed insulting

The Vatican managed to take a Palestinian state seriously.

And if such a state should have existed anyway, it's not rewarding Hamas to recognize Palestine. David Hoffman, who may not be a Palestinian (?), didn't seem to have a problem with recognition.

Finally, as for "This is definitely not going to happen, thankfully.", predicting the future doesn't always work...

[TheKentuckian]

115. Who cares about what the Vatican did or what Hoffman doesn't have a problem with?

Why are you pushing this nonsense?

What is the benefit supposed to be?

[David Boyle]

118. Ask Hoffman

He was published in the Hill, he may have some credibility. (Not to mention the Pope... 1.3 billion followers is a lot)

As for benefit, he mentions getting our hostages back; the benefit is self-evident.

Peace.

[Polybius]

43. Install a dictatorship for the next decade or two

The people have put Hamas in power, so right now a democracy would not work.

[David Boyle]

49. Ouch

Dictatorships, ugh.

[Polybius]

50. In some cases, they're necessary when the people can't be trusted to make the correct choices

In the case of Palestine, a democracy would bring in a terrorist government.

[David Boyle]

57. Whaaaat!

We're on a Democratic-leaning website!

[Polybius]

114. For us, sure

But what's better for them? Freely elect Hamas, or force them with an installed, US backed government that they can't change for 10-15 years? I'll take the latter.

[David Boyle]

120. Though I see what you mean,

of course, a freely-elected non-Hamas government might be ideal.

...If there were some for of UN protectorate for a while, some might think that could work.

[Eko]

10. I like it.

I support this.

[David Boyle]

11. Thanks so much!

Again, it's minimalist: no call for arms embargo or even a ceasefire, though people can make those "add-ons" if desired.

[David Boyle]

12. HuffPost "Exclusive: White House Says Democrats Who Oppose Weapons To Israel Are Aiding Hamas"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/biden-weapons-israel-senate_n_673df15be4b0f17b35e0860a

"The Biden administration is aggressively pushing senators to bless continued U.S. weapons shipments for Israel ahead of a first-of-its-kind vote in Congress on the policy, HuffPost has learned ― and administration officials are suggesting lawmakers who vote against the arms are empowering American and Israeli foes from Iran to the militant groups Hamas and Hezbollah, which the U.S. treats as terror organizations."

Whether you agree with Biden or not, his stance shows that the recommendation in this post might seem innocuous enough to pass muster, since it asks for no arms embargo. Can't hurt to try, as they say.

[TheKentuckian]

71. Try for what? I want it fucking GONE.

Why are you wanting to recognize a terrorist state dedicated to the destruction of Israel and reward political terrorists that either did or at minimum tried to nuke our government?

[David Boyle]

81. No, recognizing Palestine in general (including future iterations), is not recognizing a terrorist state

I certainly don't want to reward terrorists; recognition may help end terrorism, at least in the long run.

[TheKentuckian]

94. Of course it is. The government is terrorist now and the "representatives" have ALWAYS been such.

It is disgusting that you are promoting this death to Israel/ death to America theocratic, terrorist garbage

[David Boyle]

96. Not fond of theocracy or terrorism; I want Israel to live

A State of Palestine might reduce hatred towards Israel, many think.

Don't accuse needlessly!

[JustAnotherGen]

98. Succinct!

[David Boyle]

100. Haw haw!!

[JustAnotherGen]

113. Thx

[yagotme]

122. How can one recognize Palestine, without recognizing terrorists?

The Gaza government is run by terrorists, who were democratically elected. You cannot, honestly, separate the two.

[David Boyle]

126. In the abstract, maybe

Not recognizing Hamas as legitimate, but saying there should be a State of Palestine, hopefully run by others.

[canuckledragger]

129. Yes, you can separate the two.

When you choose not to lie about the innocent civilians.

[David Boyle]

130. Good point

[David Boyle]

15. May's well mention my Breaking News article,

"International Criminal Court issues arrest warrant for Israeli Prime Minister" at https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143343935 . If recognizing Palestine helps lever him out, some may agree with this.

[Blue_Tires]

17. Please direct all current requests to the president-elect

Arab-Americans wanted Donnie, so that's who they should take their troubles to...

[David Boyle]

21. I know there's a temptation to say that

Some Arab-Americans did vote for Joe, tho.

[JohnSJ]

30. Exactly. Let those uncommitted voters deal with the sociopath. Elections have consequences, and this election

was even more so.

The SC court is now lost for a generation.

Just as the Palestinians are paying for actions of hamas on October 7th, we will be paying for the action of those who voted for the sociopath for years to come.

To those professors, protesters, and certain congress people who actually cheered and voiced support for what happened on October 7th, let’s see if they do the same thing they did against Biden and Harris with their protests against the sociopath.

As one protester days after October 7th yellled to the press “enjoy trump”, no, let them “enjoy trump”, because that is who they will be dealing with. Let’s see them interrrupt speeches from trump like they did Biden and Harris.

[David Boyle]

35. Mistakes have been made...

It was questionable (and unproductive, in the end, it seems) for people not to vote for Harris because of Gaza; and even worse, those you describe who cheered October 7. Still, I think it might be good to recognize Palestine and get the hostages back.

[JohnSJ]

37. Too late for that. I suspect they can kiss the two state solution goodbye.

As a reminder it was the sociopath who encouraged Israel to setup Jerusalem as their capital.

[David Boyle]

48. You never know

"Gotta try..."

[JohnSJ]

52. You never know. Watch em annex Gaza. It's over. It is probably over

here also. Just look at his appointees.

[David Boyle]

54. Keep fighting!

[TheKentuckian]

103. I am, fighting for that terrorist rabble to be defanged and then

the rest can fill in where all the Jews that were ethnically cleansed and run out of Arab lands in about equal numbers as the Arabs in Israel or to hell, whichever they prefer but there has never been and never will be any Palestine if I can do any small thing to help it.

[David Boyle]

106. I decry ethnic cleansing of Jews,

but also of others.

[TheKentuckian]

108. Too late to decry now it is what it is. Time for the "Palestinian" Arabs to disperse.

They can go where the Jews were cleansed and end this nonsense.

There is all kinds of Arab territory where they can blow each other to hell and have their shitty Caliphates.

[David Boyle]

109. Some Arabs are Christian...

Just saying.

[TheKentuckian]

110. That live in oppression and that sliver means nothing to the big picture.

[David Boyle]

119. Some Arab Christians may be oppressed, by either side, they might feel

But even if they are a "sliver", they matter, I think.

[iemanja]

121. There has been a Palestine since biblical times

Why don’t you just call it Judea and Samaria like Huckabee does. He’s going to implement exactly what you want.

[David Boyle]

125. Heh ... ouch

Huckabee might do some unpleasant things.

...Doesn't he sell lots of stuff on TV?

[tritsofme]

53. Jerusalem has been Israel's capital for decades.

That’s where the Knesset and all organs of the Israeli government reside, there was no reason to pretend otherwise.

[yardwork]

38. U.S. voters elected Trump. Biden and Harris are out of options.

The voters decided this. It wasn't my doing. I voted for Harris.

[JohnSJ]

51. Same here, and I am tired of people making excuses for these

people who voted for the sociopath or those who voted third party, blaming Democrats for “not catering to working people, etc.”

That is a lie, and not the first time they did this, when they voted for Reagan. This time it is far worse. I hope they enjoy trump, musk, etc. they will pay big time for their foolishness, and so will those uncommitted voters who have just sealed the fate of the Palestinians.

[David Boyle]

56. Despair?

Can be counterproductive...

[yardwork]

58. Take it somewhere else.

[David Boyle]

59. Noooooooo!

Hope-ama!

[JohnSJ]

60. You have a defense secretary nominee who has written he could see

using the military against its citizens.

The disgrace of this is the sociopath and his cronies didn’t hide anything from the public, they have made it clear what their plans are.

[David Boyle]

61. Not trying to be Little Miss Muffet, I'm not, but

the quicker we surrender, the worse it's-a gonna be...

[David Boyle]

55. Can't complain about voting for Harris

Biden still has options, tho...

[yardwork]

19. The opportunity was lost on November 5.

A lot of very bad things are going to happen, and it's not the fault of Joe Biden or Kamala Harris. They are busy doing everything they can to protect what they can. I trust them to be doing the best they can for people all over the world. However, their power is now very, very limited.

[David Boyle]

20. Limited, true

But they still got some mojo...

[David Boyle]

24. One interesting Catholic point of view at America magazine, is

at https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2024/11/14/editorial-gaza-biden-aid-249280 (I hope the link works more than once; if not, try Googling the title), "President Biden should pressure Israel to end war in Gaza before he leaves office.",

"What if Mr. Biden ordered weapons shipments to be stopped tomorrow? While Israel would still be capable of inflicting massive damage on Gaza, its future war-fighting capabilities would be severely compromised over time, increasing the pressure to negotiate in a nation quite aware of history and ever-vigilant about attacks from hostile neighbors. The possibility of forcing Israel to the bargaining table after a year of violence—and facilitating a deal for the remaining hostages held by Hamas—has never been greater."

This goes beyond my own option of recognizing Palestine and getting the hostages out, but the spectrum of opinion is interesting.

[LymphocyteLover]

25. I like the sentiment but I can't see this flying as it will be seen as "rewarding" Hamas after 10/7

[David Boyle]

26. Some may see it that way

But I think David Hoffman makes sense when he recommends recognition, in his article I cited. Biden could stress that he is trying to respect peaceful Palestinians, not Hamas; etc.

[TheKentuckian]

72. Fact that bullshit.

What peaceful Palestinians?

Crazy talk.

[David Boyle]

80. I imagine there are some

Even if out of fear, not love, say.

[TheKentuckian]

92. Not enough to endorse the creation of a terrorist state

and another repressive theocracy.

Clear that shit out.

[David Boyle]

97. The number of "good ones" may grow over time,

if encouraged.

[JustAnotherGen]

99. Useful observation

[David Boyle]

101. Thx

[TheKentuckian]

104. Or it may not, Put em on the run or into holes.

[David Boyle]

105. Holes?

Ugh

[dutch777]

27. Late in the game, doubt it would have much affect and Don would probably undo it but open to the thought

While I support allowing Israel to protect itself, I also support Palestinians not being killed and starved wholesale. I also support a Palestinian state and think that is all that will end Palestinian terrorism but believe when we say we recognize that, Palestinians will embrace it as their "river to the sea" concept which will never fly with Israel nor bring peace. Until the many parties get out of their parochial views, look at the lands in the Middle East holistically and consider 1) redrawing borders that were arbitrarily created by Britain or other colonizers and 2) be willing to support (US and EU $$) massive terraforming to create livable lands from what is now desert and 3) assure fresh water to sustain all countries the episodic violence will only repeat and repeat. And until we withdraw significant support for Israel they will not budge. They may even not budge then.

[David Boyle]

28. Very thoughtful reply

Thanks!

[dutch777]

31. Sad this is where we have to focus our thoughts. We should be colonizing the Moon and Mars by now...

...give our youth bigger vision and bigger aspirations and real hope for a worthy future maybe picking up a gun and killing the neighbors will seem a real waste of time vs. the only way to make a difference before you die all too young anyway. We think too small.

[David Boyle]

32. Recognize the State of Mars!

[C0RI0LANUS]

29. Nelson Mandela: 'It always seems impossible until it's done.'

Center is Dr. Neil Bernard, the former D/BOSS under President P.W. Botha who quietly engineered the mostly peaceful transfer of power from white-minority rule to full enfranchisement for all South Africans.

Conducting the subsequent Truth and Reconciliation Commission also helped to answer questions, heal wounds, and prevent reprisals.

[David Boyle]

33. Great pic, great sentiment!

[LexVegas]

34. Nope. nt

[David Boyle]

36. That was succinct!

[C0RI0LANUS]

39. Yes

[David Boyle]

47. Heh

[Takket]

40. Bibi doesn't give a shit what Biden has to say

And even if he did, Biden would NEVER recognize Palestine in the next two months.

[David Boyle]

44. Recognition might move the needle in ways that people might have to deal with, even if unliked

And it doesn't hurt to try to move Jolly Joe.

[Jose Garcia]

41. The United States should not reward Hamas terrorists for October 7

[David Boyle]

45. Yes, but this isn't a reward for them

Again, it's something the Vatican did in 2015, so...

[Jose Garcia]

66. The Vatican also want abortion to be illegal. Just like it is in Gaza

[David Boyle]

67. I didn't say the Vatican is perfect

But sometimes they can be right.

[cabotnn22]

42. They have to recognize Israel's right to exist

And that will never happen. The Israeli government has offered $5 million for the release of each hostage; no takers. There will be no Palestinian state with out the recognition of Israel's right to exist.

If that happens, wonderful! But I don't think it will any time soon.

[David Boyle]

46. Ideally, they should

Then again, once recognized themselves, Palestinians may be quicker to recognize others...

[Mountainguy]

62. Palestinian supporters

Can write to Trump and see how it goes. They helped put him there.

[David Boyle]

63. This, I agree with

Good idea!

[David Boyle]

79. She might have

Then again, it was a tightrope: e.g., if she had Shapiro as VP, she could've won Penn, but lost Michigan; etc.

[vanessa_ca]

102. Kinda unfair to always be pointing at Palestinian supporters when Trump increased his Jewish & pro-Israel vote

An AP/Fox News poll found that 66% of Jews supported Harris. An exit poll of Jews in Pennsylvania — where the Jewish vote particularly mattered, and where Harris, her running mate, Gov. Tim Walz, and the state’s Jewish governor, Josh Shapiro, tirelessly campaigned for the ticket — suggested that Harris did not manage to win even half the Jewish vote. According to one analysis, “Counties and jurisdictions with sizable Jewish populations swung notably towards Republicans, compared to 2020.” A reliable pre-election poll published in the Forward put Jewish support for the Democratic ticket at just 62%, its lowest level since 1988.

/snip/

Those billpayers, like megadonors Miriam Adelson and the late Bernie Marcus, tend to be Jewish billionaires and multimillionaires who apparently care a great deal more about Trump’s promised tax cuts for the wealthy, his support for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing extremist government, and his promise to crack down on colleges that allow pro-Palestinian demonstrations on campus than they do about the fact that Trump has surrounded himself with unapologetic antisemites. Or about, say, the fact that Trump has frequently repeated the belief that American Jews owe loyalty to Israel as well as, or even above, the United States. Or that he has frequently expressed personal admiration for Hitler, and even made threats against American Jews who planned to vote against him.

The sympathy that so many ultra-rich funders have for Trump explains the otherwise shocking silence of Jewish organizations in the wake of Trump’s Nazi-style pre-election hatefest at Madison Square Garden. “There’s no question about it: For the American Jewish Committee, the ADL, Conference of Presidents, the federations, all these institutes,” Foxman said, “if this happened six months ago, they would be out there condemning racism and antisemitism and hate speech.”

But today they were hedging their bets, concerned not only that Trump might actually win — as he did — but also that their right-leaning donors might not cotton to overly harsh criticism of the candidate to whom they had pledged their financial support, and whom they hope will represent their interests once in power.

https://forward.com/opinion/673192/jewish-vote-2024-trump/

Earlier this week, a survey sponsored by the Teach Coalition, the Orthodox Union-affiliated group that advocates on behalf of religious schools, found that 40% of Jews in congressional swing districts in Pennsylvania and the New York suburbs voted Republican, meaning that Jews, like a number of other historically Democratic-voting constituencies, tacked right in unprecedented numbers in the places where their votes mattered the most.

/snip/

Jews swinging toward Trump in significant numbers would mark a potential turning point in the relationship between Jewish Americans and both major political parties. Based on Tablet’s own comparison of precinct-level numbers from the 2020 and 2024 election, Donald Trump did improve his performance in a range of Jewish neighborhoods across America. From the yeshivas of Lakewood, New Jersey, to the bagel shops of New York’s Upper West Side; from Persian Los Angeles to Venezuelan Miami; from the Detroit suburbs to the Chabadnik shchuna in Brooklyn’s Crown Heights, Jewish areas voted in higher percentages for the Republican candidate than they did in 2020, which in turn was better for Republicans than 2016. The oft-cited exit poll pushed by CNN, NBC and others asserting that the Jewish vote went 79% to Harris did not include New York, New Jersey and California, which have some of the largest Jewish populations in the country. Claims that the numbers are holding steady for Democrats become more difficult to sustain after a close look at vote totals in the places where Jews actually live.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/jewish-vote-elections-2024

[David Boyle]

107. Thanks for long quotes/observations!

[Mountainguy]

111. Except Jews aren't now begging Biden to do this and that

So talking about their votes is just a strawman.

[David Boyle]

117. Jewish votes might not all be asking things of Biden,

but they still may matter, e.g., having voted for Trump, or not having voted for Harris, etc.

[Mountainguy]

123. Which makes it a very different situation

Again, the Palestinian supporting uncommitted block can beg Trump for help.

[David Boyle]

124. I know that that's a natural thing to say, but

it risks sounding cruel, too.

Maybe they made a big mistake, but whether they (and most of the world, at least in terms of offended sensibilities, or more) should have to suffer for it further...

[totodeinhere]

64. We should not recognize Palestine.

It is not a legitimate country. It is a hell hole for terrorists.

[David Boyle]

65. Once recognized, it may improve

Israel was recognized despite the King David Hotel bombing -- as it should have been --, and accordingly, once recognized, Palestinians may stop terrorism.

[totodeinhere]

68. I doubt it.

A lot of countries including some members of the EU recognize them already and that hasn't stopped them from harboring terrorism.

[David Boyle]

69. True

But U.S. recognition may move the needle, per the David Hoffman article I mentioned.

[TheKentuckian]

73. Fuck that article. NO! I'd rather join the bombing campaign.

[David Boyle]

78. Risking the Dark Side, young Skywalker, you are...

[TheKentuckian]

90. Yipeee!

[David Boyle]

91. Oh no

[Celerity]

157. What bombing campaign? Surely you are not saying the Israeli terrorist group Irgun's bombing of the King David Hotel was

was ok? It specifically targeted (91 people killed in toto) the British, but also killed were some Americans, Jews, and Arabs.



Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom" ) party, which led to today's Likud party. Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977. The Igun's terrorist leader, Menachem Begin, eventually became the Israeli Prime Minister.

[David Boyle]

159. Thanks for the history lesson

[David Boyle]

76. Bad grammar

"F--- a Palestine"?

Bad sentiment too.

[TheKentuckian]

86. I like it just swell..

[David Boyle]

88. "Have a great weekend!"

" "

[David Boyle]

77. Good intentions, but...

Many people think BDS goes too far. Too, I don't know if a bi-national state would work, especially now.

But justice for all is important. Thanks.

[Ponietz]

82. Unless Palestinians recognize an Israeli state it's out of the question

[David Boyle]

84. Reciprocity would be nice

Though one could get into who has the authority to recognize, if there is no Palestinian state yet...

[Retrograde]

83. Wouldn't that require Senate approval?

I think recognizing a new country is akin to a treaty, something that requires confirmation from the Senate (although recent presidents have skirted around some constitutional requirements - like Senate approvals for wars - so there might be a loophole I'm overlooking).

That aside, it might work, it might not. I don't think there are any quick and easy answers for a situation that's been festering longer than many of us have been alive.

[David Boyle]

85. Good queries

I think the President gets to recognize foreign powers by himself.

And yes, no easy answers, necessarily...

[Nimble_Idea]

87. nope

[David Boyle]

89. Succinct! !

[iemanja]

112. It wouldn't work

and it wouldn't affect Netanyahu. Israel and the world, including Palestinians, know Biden will be out of office soon, and Trump will simply reverse any such policy. They could suspend arms shipments for the duration of the Biden administration, which would have a temporary effect, but they won't do it.

[David Boyle]

116. Other nations' recognition might be hard to reverse

If our recognizing Palestine spurred other countries' recognition, those other countries might not reverse it just because Trump reverses American recognition.

Arms are another thing; you're right that if Biden paused them, Trump could resume them. Then again, I'm not calling for an arms embargo.

Thanks for the comments though!

[Ping Tung]

127. Biden should but won't.

At least with Biden he made some efforts to help the humanitarian aid and try for a cease fire.

Trump will simply make a show of bellicosity to brag about.

The question of a forming a Palestinian state should be decided by vote of the General Assembly of the UN.

Alas. that won't happen because the big shots on all sides will allow the killing to go on to prove.....something.

[David Boyle]

128. I wouldn't be surprised

Gen Assembly could help, but maybe they could use prodding...

[Iggo]

131. Next time he comes over.

I promise.

[David Boyle]

132. Heh

[C0RI0LANUS]

133. 138 out 193 UN Member States Recognize the State of Palestine. Canada's Parliament was close this year.

[David Boyle]

134. Thanks

Great map!

[David Boyle]

135. Also, Norway, Spain, Ireland have recognized Palestine

this year, I think.

[C0RI0LANUS]

136. Yes, that sounds correct about Norway, Spain, and Ireland.

Nota Bene: The world's second largest economy-- the "factory of the world"-- recognized the State of Palestine decades ago. And Beijing mended the fence between the PA and Hamas this very year.


Mahmoud al-Aloul, Vice Chairman of the Central Committee of Fatah, China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi, and Mussa Abu Marzuk, a senior member of Hamas, in Beijing on 23 July 2024. (Photo: Pedro Pardo/AFP/Getty Images)

If America keeps taking a back seat to China, we'd all better start practicing our Mandarin or things will become "Pu Hao" for us.

Sources:

https://thediplomat.com/2023/12/understanding-chinas-position-on-the-israel-palestine-conflict/

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/23/china/hamas-fatah-palestinian-factions-beijing-intl-hnk/index.html

[David Boyle]

137. Thanks for the multilingual presentation

[C0RI0LANUS]

138. Dou itashimashite!

[David Boyle]

139. "Translation?"

[C0RI0LANUS]

140. "Dou itashimashite" means "You're welcome" in Japanese.

The link below is something you might find fruitful as you explore the fascinating wonders of the "Interweb":

https://translate.google.com/

[David Boyle]

141. I've heard of that link!

[C0RI0LANUS]

142. You've heard of https://translate.google.com?

[David Boyle]

143. I -- I may've even used it!

[C0RI0LANUS]

145. Well then,

[David Boyle]

147. The hair I like

The death stick, not so much.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

144. "State" of Palestine? Or "States"?

It seems that there would need to be two Palestines. The government of Gaza has no influence in the West Bank, and the reverse is true. To name it as one state, the UN would need to pick which of the two governing bodies will be represented at the UN.

Is there a land path between the two Palestines? Or are they as separated as East Pakistan and West Pakistan after they were spun off from India?

[David Boyle]

146. Interesting

Land bridge could be useful.

Maybe some other body besides the two mentioned could be chosen...

[C0RI0LANUS]

148. Let's find solutions to free the hostages and bring peace to the Middle East.

The Chinese government reconciled both the Gaza and West Bank leaderships this summer.


Mahmoud al-Aloul (Fatah), Chinese FM Wang Yi, and Mussa Abu Marzuk (Hamas) in Beijing on 23 July 2024. (Photo: Pedro Pardo / AFP / Getty Images)

There was no land bridge between West and East Pakistan following partition in 1948. Islamabad's neglect of East Pakistan led to their violent departure in 1971 and thus Bangladesh was born. George Harrison dedicated a concert to the suffering people of Bangladesh.



Below represents a concept for a potential link between the two Palestinian territories:




Instead of spending billions on weapons, the US and Israel might spend less than one billion dollars for a bridge like this. This elevated road connects Jerusalem with the Etzion Block. (Photo: Zeev Barkan)

[David Boyle]

149. Bridge to the future

!

[C0RI0LANUS]

150. The cost of one peaceful bridge is much less than years of lethal military aid.

The Oresund Bridge below connecting Denmark and Sweden cost billions of Euros to construct. But this enormous project had a maritime element of laying a foundation on the seabed.



A land bridge between Gaza and the West Bank, like the elevated road connecting Jerusalem to the Etzion Block, would be much easier to replicate.

[David Boyle]

151. Cost-effective

Can't complain.

[RockRaven]

152. If there existed "this one weird trick" action X to get the hostages back and Biden

had for some reason not done it YET TO DATE, from where does anyone get the idea that he would now in this moment be willing to do so... because of some emails, phone calls, petitions, or social media posts?

Either a) he will continue to not be willing to do action X for whatever reason, or b) action X is not actually a reliable way of getting the hostages back.

[David Boyle]

153. We don't know

Can't hurt.

[RockRaven]

154. Wasted time is still a hurt, even if it be a small one per person. And my question remains

unanswered: where does the expectation of effectiveness of this particular maneuver come from?

[David Boyle]

155. Not a bad question

It's a new idea, hasn't been tried, really, so could work. The reciprocity of it, where Palestinians and Americans both benefit, is also a nice feature, maybe.

Doesn't take much time to do, so not much lost for trying.

[RockRaven]

156. Still unanswered: from where comes the premise that a Biden recognition of

the state of Palestine results in hostage releases?

[David Boyle]

158. It might or might not

Sometimes people appreciate being recognized, though.

[soandso]

163. True but it's Hamas who has whatever hostages are still alive

and Hamas does not want a two state solution.

Yours is a well meaning suggestion but far too simplistic. Recognizing the Palestinians as a people (which is often denied) would probably work but even their own West Bank is full of Israeli settlers, which means you couldn't even call the territory theirs. It's such a hopeless situation

[David Boyle]

164. Thanks

We'll see what happens.

[C0RI0LANUS]

160. If the US recognizes the State of Palestine, the Palestinian leadership would take steps to release

the hostages out of gratitude, respect, and as a responsible new member of the international community of nations.

The new State of Palestine would then ask if the US could push Jerusalem to release any of the 2,200 prisoners being held in security detention without trial or hearing (captured by the IDF before 7 Oct 2023).

This is why the Palestinian attackers seized hostages during their surprise attack on 7 Oct 2023: Prisoner swap. And thanks to D/Mossad who pushed the PM, prisoner trades took place in Nov 2023, saving lives (including a toddler).

Sources:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/26/1215298016/israel-and-hamas-complete-third-prisoner-hostage-exchange

[David Boyle]

161. Informative as usual

Thanks!

[ZRB]

162. Lol

[David Boyle]

165. Uh ohh

You never know!