A Pastors message to white "Christians"

[onecaliberal]

Air quotes are mine.

[milestogo]

1. Truth.

[B.See]

41. NEWSFLASH: and if you voted for him

... neither are YOU.

[Skittles]

2. more proof their "faith" is bullshit

imagine what Jesus would think of Trump and his supporters

[patphil]

3. Get thee behind me Satan.

[wryter2000]

26. Not necessarily

I believe he’s an Episcopal priest.

Let’s not throw out loving opinions.

[Skittles]

27. I'm referring to who he's talking about

people who support that vile POS Trump

not sure why he singles out white folk though, don't know enough about him

[wryter2000]

29. True

But many people here won’t make that distinction.

[Skittles]

30. many people here don't make a lot of distinctions

we're more like real life than we know

[wryter2000]

32. Many people were harmed by religion when they were small

Add the damage evangelicals do now, and you have a lethal combination. But people here are intelligent enough and normally perceive nuance enough that they should be able to approach this subject with more intelligence.

[Skittles]

34. I was lucky, my parents had nothing to do with religion

not for, not against

from the outside looking in, it's way different than if you were groomed, I know that

[wryter2000]

86. Seems odd

But while people vote for him every time, even women.

[ancianita]

79. Here's Pavlovitz's blog site.

https://johnpavlovitz.com

[wryter2000]

87. Thanks

He doesn't seem to be Episcopal. He sounds like what I hear in my church.

[ancianita]

88. sure, no problem

I've only read one thing he's written; he seems in-the-Word, and corrects fellow christians as the NT consistently says one should.

[Mariana]

4. The majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump.

Not once, not twice, but THREE times. This is who they are. Mainstream Christianity in the US is cruel, immoral, vile, racist, misogynistic, narcissistic, vulgar, criminal, and hateful, and Trump represents them very well indeed. I understand that Rev. Pavlovitz wishes it wasn't so, but it is so. My question to Rev. Pavlovitz is, what does he intend to do about it?

[onecaliberal]

5. My daughter married one and took our grandkids from us.

She texted us and said she would be fine to never see us again. We’ve never heard from her since. They are soulless people.

[Maru Kitteh]

14. That's absolutely horrible. I hope you'll be able to see them again when they've grown.

I’m truly sorry this happened to you and the grands. It’s not okay.

[calimary]

22. I'm so sorry to hear this.

I’m so sorry!

Another family torn apart by the donald. Damn. He is damaging to America and us Americans in ways we’ve never imagined before (especially because we never had to - until the donald came along).

That’s what makes me the angriest!

[Mariana]

50. Another family torn apart by Christianity.

According to the stories, Jesus taught his followers to hate their families.

Luke 14 : 26 - “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters – yes, even his own life – he cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10 : 34 - “Think not that I have come to bring peace to the earth; it is not peace I bring but a sword. I have come to set son against father, daughter against mother, daughter-in-law against mother-in-law; a person’s enemies will be the members of his own household.”

[travelingthrulife]

72. My evangelical relatives use this one to justify their hate.

Done with them all.

[flying_wahini]

85. Man that is horrible. I can't imagine how she reconciles that in her heart.

Her husband must be a real control freak.

[Skittles]

6. the majority of phony christians

THERE, I FIXED IT

[Mariana]

8. So, only non-Christians voted for Trump?

Is that what you're saying?

[Skittles]

9. you simply cannot be a true christian and vote for Donald Fucking Trump

you CANNOT

I'm saying they are PHONIES

[Mariana]

11. Why?

Do you think Christians are inherently better people than non-Christians?

[Skittles]

12. OMG

I WAS AGREEING WITH YOU

I'm saying these folk can SAY they are christian but they are ANYTHING BUT

I AM AGNOSTIC

DONE HERE

[Mariana]

15. No, you weren't agreeing with me.

I said they are Christians. You say they're not.

[Prof. Toru Tanaka]

19. Explain how a person can be a true Christian and vote for a person like Donald Trump

It is people like them that make me not want to attend religious services.

[Mariana]

46. Because true Christians can be shitty people just like anyone else can.

[FoxNewsSucks]

52. Then they're not TRUE Christians

if they are not trying to improve by following the word of Jesus.

[Mariana]

53. Only non-Christians can be shitty people. Is that what you're saying?

That's some serious bigotry right there.

[FoxNewsSucks]

63. Don't put words in my mouth. I said no such thing.

If they're that shitty, they're not truly paying attention to Christ, the sermon on the mount, for example. Anyone who does would not support the convicted felon, fraud, conman and adjudicated rapist for anything but the jail sentence he deserves.

I have a very low opinion of organized religion, those "shitty people" are the phonies, hypocrites, grifters and/or suckers that enable the fraudulent preachers.

[Mariana]

70. You said, "Then they're not TRUE Christians"

If shitty people aren't true Christians, then they aren't Christians at all, by definition. Yes? That means shitty people are non-Christians, by definition. Yes?

You said it FNS. Not me. You said it.

[FoxNewsSucks]

78. That's not even based in reality. Have you read the thread?

I suggest you go back to the original post, topic of which is Christian and tRump, then the replies.

You are rambling about something completely different because you apparently want to be offended or pissed off. I hope things get better for you.

Good day.

[RandomNumbers]

80. Voting for TSF is way more than just being "shitty"

Lots of shitty people probably voted for Harris.

But they weren't shitty enough to vote for TSF.

The point is there is a baseline of what "Christianity" is supposed to mean, for those who were raised in one of the more Gospel-centered (Sermon on the Mount centered) denominations.

One who follows those principles could not possibly bring themselves to vote for TSF. To be fair, they may be shitty in other ways. Just not THAT shitty.

EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. WHO. VOTED. FOR. TRUMP has an incredibly shitty attitude about other people. That attitude goes directly against the teachings of Christ, at least according to what is written in the English language versions of the Gospels that are generally available to people alive today. (A complete failing of fundamentalist "Christianity", besides generally missing widely on the Christ part of it, is the ridiculous notion that the Bible that we read today MUST represent the intentions of those who wrote it so long ago in other languages ... after it was passed down orally for generations ...)

Christians can be shitty in other ways, and non-Christians can certainly be "better" people than some people who are just good enough Christians to recognize the evil of Trump.

I hope this explanation helps a little. It's probably the best I can do.

[SidDithers]

73. Fucking A...nt

Sid

[Skittles]

24. CINO

TRUE CHRISTIANS would never support a man as vile asTrump

what would Jesus think of someone rounding people up and putting them in camps

now I am done - FOR GOOD

[Abolishinist]

20. Interesting that YOU are able to define a "true Christian",

proffer that the former is NOT one, and then proceed to tell one who disagrees with you that they're wrong?

So tell us, what exactly ARE the defining characteristics of a 'true Christian', and what logical process did you use to determine such.

[wryter2000]

35. For starters

Follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth

[Abolishinist]

36. And if I said the lord of creation spoke his ultimate words

to an unlettered merchant in seventh-century Arabia, your response would be?

[wryter2000]

38. The person would have to demonstrate

They had a connection to the divine. A message of love far better than I can manage.

It’s an interesting question…what if someone like that appeared? Would we think of them as a prophet, the second coming? I honestly don’t know. We haven’t had to deal with that.

[Abolishinist]

90. The unlettered merchant I was referring to is Muhammad.

When he was 40, circa? 610, Muhammad reported being visited by Gabriel in the cave and receiving his first revelation from God. In 613, Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly, proclaiming that 'God is One', that complete 'submission' (Islām) to God (Allāh) is the right way of life (dīn), and that he was a prophet and messenger of God, similar to the other prophets in Islam.

More than 24.1% of the world's population is Muslim, with an estimated total of approximately 1.9 billion. Muslims are the majority in 49 countries.

But of course, for those in the know, the only REAL God is the Christian one!

[wryter2000]

39. BTW, if the story is true

He did appear to a son of a carpenter who spoke Aramaic.

Beyond that, we’d have to get into my personal theology. It’s way too much to type here

[wryter2000]

33. Fixed

Thank you

[The_REAL_Ecumenist]

23. I humbly have to say that THAT is NOT true! The fuckers you're talking about the so-called "EVANGELICALS", AKA

the modern day version BELIEVE IN GOD, BUY LUXURY CARS, MANSIONS & PLANES for the so called preachers & God will bless you with all the money on planet Earth. You know, the "swaggarty/fallwell, bullshit" types that use Yeshua's name as MARKETING! They conveniently ignore that Christ took a whip and overturned the tables of the vendors because it doesn't play into their PATENTLY false greed based doctrine.

I spent the better part of my childhood around those types because my parents wanted a better education than what was available at that time in the LA district nearest my neighborhood. These people weren't any more Christian than djt jr is a teetotaler. They're hateful, EVIL, bigotted, cherry picking what applies to what they want. They are GREEDY AF, Sexually abusive to children, (trust me when I say that I knew WAY too much about these things), women and Lord only knows whoever else. They are FAR from the mainstream. Instead, they're the loudest, craziest weirdos. They don't believe in Christ...thay believe in the cultic nonsense & use Christianity as a selling point.. They're no more mainstream than the magats are the mainstream political movement of America.

Don't get it twisted. I always say that they're the worst kind of hypocrites on planet Earth while blowing their horns about how "AWFUL the TALIBAN is" & trust me when I say that I have no problem blowing their hair back pointing out their 2 faced comments are. THIS nonsense is why people are fleeing churches and Christianity in droves. They can't even live up to the BASIC 'ish: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." The BASIC SHIT which also said that if you loved God with your heart, REALLY loved God, you would love your fellow human because you would think of them AS YOURSELF!

So please, don't get the VAST majority of Christian twisted up with those creeps 'cuz we don't agree with their nonsense. Infact, some of the WEIRDEST creeps I've EVER had the bad luck to meet were those folks from the so called "Bible Belt". They have the colossal nerve to preach to others about being chaste, faithful, etc. These were also the same ones who had babies all over town, cheating...with women AND men, drinking their way under a dozen tables, etc.

[Mariana]

49. We can't solve the problem if we pretend it doesn't exist.

So please, don't get the VAST majority of Christian twisted up with those creeps 'cuz we don't agree with their nonsense.

The majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump - 63% of Protestants and 58% of Catholics. Simply declaring that they aren't Christians and ignoring them does nothing whatsoever to solve the problem

[wryter2000]

28. All Christians

Or the fundie haters? I know the press speaks of them as if they were all of the Christians, but they aren’t.

[Mariana]

47. I said nothing about "all Christians".

I said the majority of Christians. The majority literally means not all.

[wnylib]

44. Lot of sweeping generalizations in that post.

RE: Racist and misogynistic *mainstream* Christianity. Do you mean the mainstream denominations of Episcopal, Lutheran, and Presbyterian churches which have Black, Asian, LBGTQ, and women as ordained clergy?

Do you mean organizations like Christians Against Christian Nationalism? Here is their statement.

https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement

The mainstream denomination of Baptists are leading the Christian opposition to Christian Nationalism. Their spokesperson is a woman, Amanda Tyler.

Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden are active, practicing members of the mainstream Roman Catholic Church. Kamala Harris is a member of the mainstream Baptist Church. Tim Walz us a member of the mainstream Lutheran Church. Are you saying that Pelosi, Biden, Harris, and Walz are "cruel, immoral, vile, racist, misogynistic, narcissistic, vulgar, criminal, and hateful"?

You have expressed your feelings about religion, which you are entitled to have. But they do not square with reality.

The reality is that Christian denominations, and individuals within them are split on issues. They do not fit into cookie cutter categories of sweeping generalizations. They are people, not Rohrschach blots for projecting your own subjective emotions onto.

[Mariana]

48. The majority of Christian voters cast their ballots for Trump.

63% of Protestant Christians and 58% of Catholic Christians. That is reality.

[wnylib]

56. How many of them were *mainstream* Christians

that you said were vile, misogynistic, racist, etc., etc. in your diatribe? How many of the Christian Trump voters were Evangelical, Pentecostal, or from mom and style churches with no denominational identity? How many identify as Christian because they were baptized as infants and then never saw the inside of a church after that?

You contradicted yourself in your post. The heading said that the majority of. Christian voters voted for Trump. But the body of your post said that mainstream Christians are blah, blah, blah. Not the same thing.

The term "mainstream Christian" applies to the old, conventional denominations of Roman Catholic, Greek and Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal. The largest, main bodies of the last 5 that I identified support separation of church and state. 4 of those 5 support full equality on race/ethnicity, women, and LGBTQ issues.

The Protestant denominations and the Episcopal church have had smaller, conservative groups split off from them over liberal versus conservative views. The larger, liberal churches are mainstream.

Evangelical and Apostolic churches are not a unified body under one denomination. They consist of stand alone and various small groups of churches. Taken individually, they are smaller than mainstream Christian denominations. But, if grouped together, they amount to a very large number. They have been growing, for political reasons, while mainstream Christian denominations have lost members who reject religion in general. But the mainstream churches remain liberal and ready to resist the fascist insanity. Why write them off when we need all the support that we can get? You don't need to join one. You don't need to be religious at all. But you do need to know who they are instead of lumping all Christians under your umbrella of hatred for religion. We might need their help in the near future. Several mainstream churches are ready made organizations that support our issues.

[Redleg]

67. And so did the majority of white people

Why paint with such a broad brush? Should we assume white people aren't real people?

[Evolve Dammit]

77. So ironic, considering he is the most UN-Xtian I have ever seen??

[Marcuse]

7. They love the same things and hate the same people.

[Abolishinist]

10. Misgogynistic? How so? Seems like a regular Christian to me.

Perhaps Pavlovitz should reconsider why he calls himself one in the first place.

1 Corinthians 11:3: But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man

1 Corinthians 11: 7 - 9: For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Perhaps Pavlovitz should reconsider being one in the first place.

1 Corinthians 14:34–35: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22–25: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it.

1 Timothy 2: 9–15: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived (actually he was, by the woman, which is even more ironic to me), but t he woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[yellowdogintexas]

42. That is Paul, not Christ. Christ never spoke of that stuff

Paul had some strange ideas about stuff.

Read the Beatitudes that is Christ teaching
Read Matthew 25

[UniqueUserName]

51. Cafeteria Christian?

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2024, 08:02 AM - Edit history (1)

2 Timothy 3:16, which states, "All scripture is inspired by God".

Therein lies the problem. You can make that book say anything you want to. As an earlier post mentioned, MOST Christians voted for Trump. English allows words to drift in meaning. Ergo, most Christians are indeed like Trump. You are correct in saying that some Christians are not like Trump.

[Mariana]

55. We have a bunch of people here insisting that NO Christians voted for Trump.

Some posters have simply redefined "Christianity" so as to exclude anyone who voted for Trump. Therefore all Trump voters are non-Christians. Isn't that convenient?

[AverageOldGuy]

13. Yes, they know

But they don’t care. He hates the same people they do.

[Maru Kitteh]

16. Been saying it for years. He hates who they hate and that's enough for them. It's

all they need.

[Bluethroughu]

17. You forgot smelly.

[TomSlick]

18. The good Reverend is correct. I say amen.

The antipathy above toward all Christians above is disheartening.

Many here are Christians. To assume we are all like the worst of people who call themselves Christian is unfair.

I have asked this before to no avail but here I go again. DU is a haven for progressively minded folks. People visit DU looking for such a haven. When progressive Christians visit DU, we don't need to run them off by attacking Christians as a whole.

Remember, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter are Baptists. Please don't add to the Rethuglican talking point that Democrats are anti-Christian. Please let me recommend DU to progressive Christians.

[yellowdogintexas]

43. Hillary is a staunch United Methodist nt

[TomSlick]

68. Hillary lives her faith.

[Mariana]

54. I think some of the antipathy you see in this particular thread

comes from the repeated insistence that only non-Christians could be so awful as to vote for Trump. That kind of bigotry begets antipathy.

[BigmanPigman]

21. This is what I read originally..."White Christmas"

Sometimes my poor eyesight as well as reading too quickly produces amusing results when I read the actual post.

?si=9fkl9yDXW5l2K2yP

[Skittles]

31. that is happening to me more and more

I misread something and then do a double-take

[Cha]

37. Mahalo, onecaliberal!

[JI7]

40. Donald Trump is what most Christians are. Jimmy Carter is a minority

Very few Christians are like Jimmy Carter.

[Emile]

45. After sinning christians pray for forgiveness and all is forgiven.

They do this everyday.

[OldBaldy1701E]

60. Yup.

Nothing more soul-liberating that making sure that there is always someone else to blame so that they don't have to be held accountable.

https://i.postimg.cc/q7PJ94bQ/temp-Imagedr-MCWL.avif

[Emile]

61. That's why they sin so much.

[LiberalLovinLug]

69. Not a bad deal

I was brought up in a Evangelical house.

I bowed and prayed to be 'saved' with my mother when I was a child.

Once your in
You are free to sin

I've often thought of this after I left all that behind me. After finding out about all the hypocrisy and contradictions in the Bible. And the narcissism and cruelty of this God of "love".

That now, I can even "sin" by speaking out against organized fundamentalist religion, not bow down to him, and call Evangelicals fools and dupes. Hell, I can do even worse things than that, and I'm covered. I have my gold mansion waiting for me when I pass on no matter what.

[SidDithers]

57. No True Scostsman fallacy...

Which gatekeeper determines who is a Christian and who isn't? There's no objective measure of what a Christian is. It's all subjective interpretations of parables from an old piece of fiction.

If Trump says he's a Christian, and other self-described Christians believe him, who's to say they're all wrong, and the "good" Christians are right?

Sid

[onecaliberal]

59. Who says they are wrong? The teachings of their supposed king, that's who.

[Mariana]

82. Ignoring the teachings of their supposed king makes them bad Christians.

It doesn't make them non-Christians.

[onecaliberal]

83. Standing in a garage calling yourself a car doesn't make you one.

[spanone]

58. K&R

[Blue Owl]

62. K&R

tRump takes from the poor all day every day — whereas Jesus helped the poor all day every day

[AllaN01Bear]

64. i whole heartedly approve this message .

thats going to leave a mark.

[lonely bird]

65. Inerrant or inspired?

Makes no difference.

The synoptic gospels are not. John was written about 90 years after the crucifixion supposedly took place and seeks to establish a radicalization of the stories in the synoptic gospels.

The entire NT is a theological dogma document. It exists because it was needed to differentiate those who followed the Christ from the Jewish people.

The OT is not history. It is mythology.

As for who is a Christian and who isn’t? I don’t care. Their words mean nothing in comparison to their actions.

As for Trump voters? Their votes show more about fear of changing demographics as well as misogyny than anything else.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

66. I thought Pavlovitz wasn't a pastor anymore

[Mariana]

81. His website says he is.

Author, Pastor, Activist, Storyteller

[Initech]

71. I will never understand how churches got conned into buying his lies and hateful bullshit.

We had a guy who was the most Christian president of this generation and they threw him under the bus and treated him like absolute shit in favor of Fuckface and his truly evil, un-American Dominionist bullshit. It sure seems like Satan is in charge of America's megachurches.

[Mariana]

84. Christianity doesn't magically make its adherents into good people

and it doesn't prevent them from doing awful things.

[Iggo]

74. Christians, not "Christians."

[onecaliberal]

76. "Christian's" not Christian's. That is MY opinion. You don't have to like it.

[Cherokee100]

75. Religion is

Religion is truly, 'the opiate of the masses'. Enough said.