What Democrats Are Getting Wrong About Transgender Rights

[Coventina]

In the wake of an election in which Donald Trump stoked fear about trans people — as in the much-discussed ad that warned “Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you” — Democrats are now debating how much the issue of trans rights hurt them and how fast they should retreat from it. Which is remarkable, because throughout her brief campaign, Kamala Harris was all but silent on the subject. It’s not clear how much further Democrats could actually retreat.

The party’s decision to focus on the issues that matter to most voters, especially reproductive rights, and set trans rights aside is based on a misconception. The two issues can’t be separated, because trans rights don’t just resemble reproductive rights; trans rights are reproductive rights.

In the last couple of years, as the right wing in the United States has stepped up its attacks on trans people, it has devoted tremendous energy to curbing access to gender-affirming care for minors (and in some cases adults). Supporters of such legislation argue that young people are not qualified to make — or even participate in — decisions they may regret later in life.

Of course, young people make all kinds of decisions they may later regret. But opponents of trans rights argue that there is an area in which the consequences can be nothing short of catastrophic, and that area is reproduction. Whether the focus is gender-affirming care, sports teams or bathrooms, the mission is, invariably, to protect women and girls from trans people. Two stars of the campaign to limit access to care are Chloe Cole in the United States and Keira Bell in the United Kingdom, girls who transitioned to being boys and later detransitioned to being young women. Both of them have repeatedly expressed fear that the treatment they received as teenagers could have rendered them infertile. It may or may not have; the long-term effects of puberty blockers followed by hormone therapy aren’t well known, though many trans men who started hormone treatment as adults have been able to get pregnant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/22/opinion/trans-rights-donald-trump.html

***********************************************************************************

Fuck the fascists!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. .

Allowing trans women to compete against women born biologically female is fundamentally unfair

why

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. oh so people who are stronger and faster are the problem? I thought that was the point of sports

[Llewlladdwr]

8. By your logic we should just eliminate women's sports entirely.

Just have one team for the biggest, strongest, fastest individuals....since that's the point, right?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

9. That's what some people keep implying!

still not clear why a trans woman shouldn't compete on a women's team tho

[Llewlladdwr]

10. The same reason men still don't get a say about abortion.

Even though men can get pregnant and give birth.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

12. Men get quite a large say about abortion, actually.

It's still not clear to me how excluding women from women's sports and including men in what was traditionally called women's health care is the same thing tho?

[Polybius]

75. They can?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

88. Some trans men can get pregnant and some trans men get abortions.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

83. THIS!!

[newdeal2]

5. But is this a real issue facing America or the world?

I don’t think so, not in any meaningful way. Certainly not compared to the amount of time conservatives use it as a wedge issue.

Let sports authorities and schools figure this out.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. Individual "women born women" (people give birth to women?) differ "biologically" from each other as well. So?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. .

Women athletes have trained their entire lives and now are being asked to compete against those born men who through hormones have more strength and speed. That's just the way it is.

It's not, actually. After a year of hormone therapy, the hormone difference is negligible.

Disagree all you want but this is a topic that hurts us.

Only if you let it.

Let trans women compete against other trans women.

Where?

[Skittles]

7. they care more about trans gals in sports

than they care about climate change or the war on women

the trans issue was always red meat for the bigoted base and yes, it does work on easily-manipulated idiots

[Sundance1220]

22. It wouldn't be the first

Time I've been called a right winger or trans phobic but only by people whose opinions I don't value due to their feelings of superiority which I find off-putting and quite annoying. They have little sense of proportion and don't want to listen to anyone else's opinion. I have no time for that.

[SocialDemocrat61]

41. Wow

I’ve never seen someone get five posts removed in the same thread.

[meadowlander]

6. Better access to care to support transitioning actually helps this problem better than banning it.

I'll start by saying 99% of trans people who receive gender affirming care have no regrets and consider that it significantly improved their quality of life.

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b

The people I've seen on YouTube who claim to have detransitioned and have regrets did not receive counseling or support for their transition. That counseling almost always includes talking through fertility issues before started testosterone and making arrangements to freeze eggs where this is a concern for the person involved.

There's one woman who said she literally decided she was trans, went to a drug store and started testosterone days later without doing any research on what it would do to her body and then two years later changed her mind. Well sorry but that was a stupid and impulsive decision that you now have to deal with the consequences of. It's not the job of the government to deny access to the 99% of people who would otherwise be suicidal from dysphoria because you made a bad choice for you and now regret it. And that's generously assuming her story is true in the first place. I remain skeptical that you can just walk into any pharmacy you like and just start buying T. She must have gotten a fake prescription online somewhere.

Significantly more people regret tattoos and piercings than regret gender affirming care and yet those are both still widely available on the basis that people can make decisions about what they want to do to their own bodies where it causes absolutely zero harm to anyone else.

If we actually educated people about gender affirming care, and had widely available, high quality, and free counseling for people to understand their options including their options with regards to fertility (instead of having to rely on TikTok and YouTube for their health information on hormone treatment impacts) then you would have fewer people making impulsive, poorly informed decisions about it and then later milking their sob stories for social media clout to the detriment of the wider community.

[Skittles]

29. how about we distance ourselves from taxpayer funded senseless wars

how about THAT

[EnergizedLib]

31. Serious question

What constitutes as the basis for a taxpayer funded war versus one which is necessary?

[Skittles]

33. when a country is attacked or invaded, they have the right to strike back

but if Saudi Arabia funds terrorists to attack the US, starting a war with Afghanistan is bullshit (notice who actually got Osama in the end, and how)....think of how much money that war cost and what "results" were achieved

and lying your way into a war is just plain CRIMINAL

just sickening how people are are all up in arms trashing "trans surgery" while ignoring the big picture

but that is EXACTLY what this anti-trans stuff is designed to do

DON'T FALL FOR IT

over and out

[BootOutTheGoons]

36. Gender affirming care is medically necessary!!!!

It is not the responsibility of trans people to neglect treating their gender dysphoria so you and others can have an easier time with your transphobia

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

85. 100%... how do people not see this?!

[meadowlander]

32. There are no doctors anywhere that perform gender affirming surgery on minors.

This is the "Week 40 Abortion" of the trans rights national dialogue.

Very few doctors will even sign off on hormone treatments for minors.

With minors, we're talking about puberty blockers which delay puberty until the child is old enough to make up their own mind about whether they want to transition permanently or not. That can mean that difference between whether they need expensive surgery (which always carries risks) later in life. If you are FTM and take puberty blockers as a teen, you may not need top surgery as an adult. Top surgery costs $7,000-$10,000 and leave permanent scars on your chest.

If you are MTF and take puberty blockers, your voice won't change (saving you from having to do vocal chord shaving) and you may not need to spend thousands of dollars on laser hair removal.

There are no documented permanent health impacts of taking puberty blockers. If you stop taking them, you go through puberty the same as you would have otherwise.

The only reason to block kids' access to them is because you think trans people are gross or don't actually exist. And that's not your call to make for other people and their kids.

85% of trans people have considered self-harming. 45% have been seriously suicidal. Gender affirming surgery is life saving *health care* to which trans people deserve equal access the same as cis people.

If Medicaid or the army or whoever pays for gastric bypass surgery, they can pay for gender affirming care.

I think surgery for prisoners needs to be addressed on a case by case basis that takes into account the individual and their sentence in the context of a *health care* decision where we take gender dysphoria seriously - not as cosmetic surgery. If the state has decided to imprison someone for life, it has assumed a duty of care for that person, and that includes reasonable access to health care.

[LearnedHand]

37. Thank you for this information

Not that it's ANYONE'S business if someone else's kids get gender affirming care, but it helps to have the evidence in plain language.

[HereForTheParty]

61. That is not true - gender affirming surgeries are performed on minors

For teens ages 15 to 17 and adults ages 18 and older, the rate of undergoing gender-affirming surgery with a TGD-related diagnosis was 2.1 per 100,000 and 5.3 per 100,000, respectively. A majority of these surgeries were chest surgeries

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/gender-affirming-surgeries-rarely-performed-on-transgender-youth/

[meadowlander]

62. And some people get abortions in Week 40 -

because they are medically necessary, usually for the life of the mother.

From your link:

"A new study by researchers at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health found little to no utilization of gender-affirming surgeries by transgender and gender-diverse (TGD) minors in the U.S."

"Previous research has consistently demonstrated that gender-affirming care for TGD people can be lifesaving in mitigating negative mental health outcomes such as depression, anxiety, and suicidality."

The very rare person who does have access to these surgeries almost always are people in their late teens with parental consent where the surgery is necessary because the person is self-harming or is suicidal. And this is always done in the context of years of therapy and counseling where alternatives have been considered and found not effective.

In the rare cases where this does it occur it is with kids who have such severe gender dysphoria that are making serious and credible threats about trying to cut off their own penises or breasts first, or about ending their lives. The earlier intervention with surgery is intended to address this.

No kid wanders in off the street and accesses this kind of surgery on demand with no parental consent and no counseling or therapy first. If for no other reason than that the surgery costs thousands of dollars and for most kids and parents $10,000 for top surgery is unaffordable.

[HereForTheParty]

63. "There are no doctors anywhere that perform gender affirming surgery on minors."

Just pointing out it's not true. Rare, yes. But they happen.

[meadowlander]

64. Fine.

12% of the US population is teenagers. 1% of those teenagers are trans. So 401,880 trans teens in America. So an occurrence of 2.1 in 100,000 means maybe 8 people in the entire US have accessed this kind of surgery as teenagers. 0.00000002% of the US population. Or statistically zero.

And I can basically guarantee that it was under the circumstances that I described in my post above. Some of them will be situations where the teen started the job themselves and botched it. No kid and no family does this casually or when it is not medically necessary.

[Meadowoak]

76. can't they just get it done at school?????!!!!!!??????

[Texasgal]

98. THIS!

So many idiots actually believe that gender affirming surgery could literally be done in a lunch hour! WTF???

I am floored by the outright stupidity! It's shocking how many DUMB f'ing people are in our mist.

[Iris]

94. Can you provide a source for this information?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

67. The vast, vast majority of these surgeries are performed on cis teens. They're chest/breast reductions.

[markpkessinger]

39. Any surgery on any minor requires the consent of parents or legal guardians already . . .

. . . so what are you on about?

[kelly1mm]

56. Like abortion? nt

[markpkessinger]

66. Okay, so you've named the ONE legal exception regarding consent to surgery for minors . . .

. . but no such exception exists for transition surgery, or any other surgery for that matter (except in the case where the parents/legal guardians are unavailable and the child's life is in imminent danger without it. But transition surgeries on minors is NOT occuring without consent, and they are exceedingly rare even WITH parental consent.

I suspect you know this, and are trolling this thread!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

68. Abortion isn't surgery and in some states minors are required to get parental consent.

[TheKentuckian]

20. Apparently not proactively taking a runny dump all over

a tiny population of people at the bottom of every pile since we campaigned at about a zero percent clip.

[iemanja]

45. Trump campaigned on it

and the Harris campaigned ignored it, thus allowing the Trump ads to control the narrative on the issue.

[exboyfil]

73. Yes

And removing posts on the other issue isn't going to help future elections. I have been struck once in the last 8 years of posting, and it was on that issue.

[TheKentuckian]

91. This negates what I said how exactly?

Seems more like you are confirming it.

[iemanja]

92. You seem to assume talking about the

issue Equates to a “runny dump all over” trans people. Whereas the actual response was none. How does that help anyone? It certainly didn’t help our election chances, and not trans people either.

[LearnedHand]

24. An excellent post equating trans rights to reproductive rights devolves into a RW-framed shouting match??

REALLY????? Why are we doing their hate work for them? I thought we were actually trying to talk about the full spectrum of human rights here.

[Skittles]

25. notice they did not respond to me

NOT surprising

[LearnedHand]

26. I noticed that!

This whole thread is nuts. What, are we now freepers?

[Skittles]

27. agreed

sickening to see recs for that trash

[BootOutTheGoons]

28. This has been DU every day since the election

Not that trans people are liked or all that accepted here in the first place but it's gotten far uglier since the election

Repigs ran on transphobia. They won. Therefore it's trans people's fault

Kinda like blaming a woman for what she was wearing after being assaulted

[Skittles]

30. seeing so-called progressives fall for such blatant rightwing trash is very disturbing indeed

Joe and Mika would welcome them.

[BootOutTheGoons]

38. I'm convinced they want to fall for it

[Skittles]

46. propaganda works on a lot of people

including those we LIKE to believe should know better

[BootOutTheGoons]

48. Yes it does

And sadly it seems hate isn't exclusive to MAGA

[LearnedHand]

40. You're right, and it's ugly

I have NO IDEA why some people who think we shouldn't legislate women's bodies also think it's perfectly okay to legislate trans bodies.

[iemanja]

42. It's not the fault of transpeople

Is anyone really saying that? Isn't the critique about the party?

Trump tethered Kamala to an issue of taxpayer funded surgeries for undocumented prisoners, not because such a thing actually exists, but because Harris answered affirmatively to an ACLU quiz that asked that question. Why is the party cooperating with quizzes like that? Biden simply ignored the question by leaving in blank. It's not like that is an issue that actually affects trans people.

On Pod Save America, I heard today that 22% of Americans expressed trans matters as an issue that affected their votes. The Trump ads worked. We have to do something about our messaging on this and other issues or we will keep losing. We can't let Republicans control the narrative. Casting it in terms of individual rights, equal protection under the law, and just leaving people the fuck alone might work. Harris simply ignored those ads, and that proved to be a mistake.

[BootOutTheGoons]

43. It's been implied here regularly since the election

That Kamala lost due to trans issues

Some of the now removed replies in this thread sure push that too

[iemanja]

44. That is not the same as blaming transpeople

It's simply a fact that the Trump ads moved voters on the issue. Letting Republicans control the narrative on the issue is a mistake.

[BootOutTheGoons]

47. Tell that to the trans people here who feel like they're being blamed

[iemanja]

49. Are you prepared to allow the GOP remain in power permanetly

By letting them control the messaging? How does that further the interests of trans people? Why is protecting equal rights for transpeople not enough? If I'm not understanding something important, I would like to know.

[BootOutTheGoons]

50. Say what?

So the GOP messaging is the fault of trans people?

And where have I ever opposed trans rights? What on earth are you talking about?

I'm not the one going after trans rights. That'd be MAGA and some people here who seem to have issues with them

[iemanja]

51. NO, it's the fault of the party

You aren't understanding me. Perhaps that's my fault for not being clear enough. My point was that the party's allowing the GOP to control the messaging on trans issues cost us votes. Rather than ignoring the issue or allowing the GOP to cast it in the most extreme terms, the Democratic Party might discuss it in terms of equal rights for trans people. The party might instead discuss it head on and explain that they support equal rights and protection under the law for all Americans, including trans people.

AOC had a good response to the bathroom stupidity in the House. She talked about how the issue was a problem not only for trans women but also for cis women and girls because in enforcing such mandates, the GOP would end up demanding to see their genitalia. She also asked why are people putting their nose in everyone's business anyway? Just leave people alone. She said it far more articulately than I'm recounting here, but she stood up for trans rights in what I saw as an effective way. We as a party might learn from such a response.

[BootOutTheGoons]

53. I never said it was the fault of the party

It is however, sadly, been going on regularly here since the election. The Democratic party may not be blaming trans people but sadly some people here have

[iemanja]

57. I said it's the fault of the party

What is written on DU doesn't impact policy. What the party does--and how it deals with messaging on issues- affects whether we are in or out of power.

I understand when people say offensive things on DU, it can be hurtful. That shouldn't happen, and many posts seem to be removed--certainly in this thread. But don't mistake that for actual influence on the party.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

79. AOC is showing why she's the new generation of progressive Democratic leaders we need to lead us forward.

[Ilikepurple]

55. I think the idea was to ignore it hoping that the messaging would fall flat for some demographics

How many of those people who voted for Trump based on this issue weren’t already in his camp? I don’t know, but do you think they weren’t baiting Harris with those ads to further draw her into a transphobic quagmire. Short of saying she was wrong on the prisoner issue I don’t know what she could have done. If she had done that she would have had to admit it’s a non-medical issue. I agree that it would have been better if there was some sort of response that would satisfy Trump leaners while supporting transgender rights, but I’ve yet to think of what that could be. Remember the response often has to be as simple as the attack. I’m glad she didn’t cave. I’m sad that she didn’t win the election.

[iemanja]

59. He spent half of his ad budget in those states on those ads for a reason

Obviously ignoring the ads didn't work. People here have complained that some want the issue to simply go away. Isn't that what not addressing it is about?

I don't know who was swayed by those ads, whether they were all hardcore Trump supporters or not. I do know that, according to a just released exit poll I heard about on Pod Save America, 22% identified it as an issue affecting their vote. I've also seen lots of posts on Twitter where people talked about the issue in a way to disparage Democrats. The party let the GOP completely control the narrative on the issue, and I submit that was a mistake.

[Ilikepurple]

65. Since you're going to live on this hill so what is the message you want?

Every response I could think of would have just made it a bigger campaign issue amongst a not very tolerant populace. If you have an idea, I seriously think you should share as any way that respects trans rights while making this issue less troublesome for Democratic Party would be welcomed by many.
The GOP controlled the narrative on a lot of issues that affected the vote. Why not rail on about inflation, the economy, and crime? I have a hard time believing the focus by many on this as the major issue facing the Democratic Party is just a litmus test of how comfortable people are with trans issues. At the very least, I think people underestimate the amount of bigotry that a response would have to assuage. It was a somewhat brilliant attack. It put gender identity, race, immigration, and crime all into one simple message. I think the more important issue is how we claw back some of the resources used to spread messages.

[iemanja]

69. Indeed, the GOP controlled the messaging on many if not all issues

Don't you think that's a problem, or are you prepared to allow them to continue to dominate?
I've already said that I think the emphasis should be on equal rights and people minding their own business.

[iemanja]

71. Here is how AOC addressed Nancy Mace's bullshit

I don't know that it's ideal, but it's effective.

1:15 in the video:

&ab_channel=MSNBC

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

80. AOC nails it... as usual!!

[Ilikepurple]

86. I think this is a good response, but how does that apply to the trans immigrant prisoner issue?

She’s using concern for cisgendered women and girls to protect trans women. I’m not saying that it isn’t effective, but to convince someone to care about trans rights in themselves takes a bit more doing. The issues at the core of those ads are what rights imprisoned undocumented immigrants have, what rights trans individuals have, whether it is a medical issue, and how tax dollars are spent. The way the right weaponizes bigotry is by asserting there is an injustice being done to their constituents on behalf of a marginalized class. To change one’s mind, one usually has to deal with the perceived injustice by capitulating, explaining it away, or as AOC has done introduce a greater injustice and sidestep the issue of trans rights altogether. It’s something we can work on the next few years without blaming Harris’s loss on bad trans rights messaging.

[iemanja]

89. There isn't a trans undocumented prisoner issue

There is no one in that situation. You’re letting the GOP frame the issue for you.

I see your point about AOC’s focusing on Cisgender women. That was my thought as well, which is why I said I didn’t think it was ideal.

The Democratic Party’s messaging in all areas needs work, whereas there was no messaging or even just a response on trans issues. Why are you so protective of ineffective silence?

[Ilikepurple]

90. You are the one that said it was an issue that the Democratic Party must face, I agree

I just don’t think there was a ready made response to be had that close to election. I believe the people who voted for Trump because of those ads let the GOP frame that issue. It’s a hypothetical issue, but a real answer has to be based in an understanding of the law and the people’s emotions. That is the civil rights of the undocumented, the imprisoned, and the non-CIS. I’m not protective of ineffective silence. I’m trying to drive the conversation forward from simplistic ineffective solutions that will not erase bias engineered by the GOP. I’m also afraid of what you possibly don’t want to come out and say and that is that trans medical care shouldn’t be made available to undocumented immigrant prisoners. If so, then why? Because they are undocumented? Imprisoned? It’s not a medical issue? You are wrong that prisoners don’t get medical care. How good it is practically is not the legal point. Any affirmative answers to these questions would admit to further limiting the civil rights of these sub groups. I’m not saying they got it right , but the Harris camp had to weigh whether getting in a culture war over this issue would have a net benefit. Like I said before, we have time to come up with a way to positively present the trans community in the coming months or years, but I don’t think mythical trans immigrant prisoner surgeries is the best place to start. I think your ideas of promoting equality and letting each other live our lives will be part of that.
I’ve asked you multiple times what you think should have been said without avail. I think your ideas of promoting equality and letting each other live our lives will be part of that. It’s not clear that I effective speech would be any better or worse than ineffective silence on this particular issue. So many arguments seem to be like position papers. I’m not advocating silence or speaking out. I’m advocating effectiveness. If one is going to tear down a tactic, in this case silence, one should be prepared to move forward in replacing it with something more effective. Ultimately I think those commercials were designed to enflame whatever level bigotry the undecided voters already had to a point to sway voters. Fighting that while providing a legal explanation that would wear out most’s patience or understanding would be a tall order.

[iemanja]

93. Why are you fixated on a problem that doesn't exist?

Just because the GOP framed the issue that way? Why not focus on aspects that actually affect the lives of real people? Am I in favor of tax payer funded surgery for people who don’t exist? No, I’m not. You yourself refer to it as mythical, yet still press me on the issue, as though it matters in anyone’s life. What I’m in favor of is equal rights that address issues in real trans lives. Effective messaging requires doing just that. Additionally. I’ve answered your question about my opinion on a potential messaging multiple times, and you even repeat it in your post, yet somehow still accuse me of not answering.

I don’t know with certainty what the best response would have been, but I do know that ignoring it didn’t work.

[Ilikepurple]

95. I'm not fixated on a problem that doesn't exist, but rights that may exist whether exercised or not

I’ll agree that ignoring it didn’t work. So I’ll ask, if you have no Time Machine and no solution how is your focus anything but trying to get us to be less “extreme” about trans rights. I don’t think of trans rights as something where you only need to worry about what has happened. Legal rights often extend further than regularly exercised. I already said the best way to combat this is to focus on real situations. It’s you that wants a response to a legal hypothetical and a legal response as easy as saying it’s not happening. Also, I am guessing there is at least one transgender immigrant prisoner. They are just not getting tax payer funded surgery. There is no facile response I can think of that isn’t just misdirection. I have said I agree with your messaging going forward with trans issues in general. I disagreed that it would work in the historical context you want it to. I thought we were getting closer to talking directly at each other, but it seems we are back at the start. I do think you are right about a lot of this. I guess we just disagree about the effects of civil rights and the danger of denying even hypothetical ones. Maybe I was just bristling at the notion of “extreme” trans rights as that word is often a shoehorn for pulling back rights, the right wings pendulum swung to far left bs. As if we ever had too many civil rights for marginalized people.

[iemanja]

96. I just found out

That gender affirming care is already available in federal prisons. So that would seemingly apply to all prisoners. Trump and the GOP could change that. I don’t think you need to worry about what DUers think. We aren’t the problem. The GOP is.

I agree that focusing on real situations and problems that are prevalent among the trans community— what they themselves prioritize— is more important. Now what that means for messaging, I can’t say.

[Ilikepurple]

97. Even though we have been disagreeing somewhat, I've enjoyed our exchange.

Im guessing most of our exchange was only read by us, but, if anything, I hope we both came away with a sharpened view of the situation. I am not sure how we turn that into a positive effect, but I hope my ramblings somehow provoke someone smarter or more connected than I to make some real change in understanding. Thank you for your time.

[iemanja]

99. Likewise

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

78. I stands with trans... to blame them is disgraceful!!

[karynnj]

100. I suspect Harris's campaign likely thought a response would only make it worse

I think they might have had a similar problem in responding to the way the immigration problem where the Republicans exaggerated the change in the number of people entering and concentrated attention on the worst, most violent undocumented people.

I live in VT, so I may have missed counter ads on that. Of the two issues, it would have probably been easier to but a clear but simple ad on this.

[meadowlander]

52. For me it's the dismissive way this is often framed as "Kamala lost because of "the trans thing"."

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2024, 10:54 PM - Edit history (3)

Or "the loony far left/trans activists pushed Kamala to take absurd positions on trans issues - of course we shouldn't pay for surgeries for prisoners or taxpayer funding for gender reassignment surgery or 'boys' playing girls sports." Let's stop supporting any of those things if we ever want to win elections again. Why can't we focus on "real" issues that "Americans actually care about" instead of this "trans stuff".

I've heard and seen all of these opinions expressed on DU since the election.

I would hope we can all agree that:
- Trans people are people and deserve respect, dignity and the same rights as everyone else.
- Trans people deserve all the same opportunities to live rich fulfilling lives as everyone else. Where this is tricky, such as opportunities to compete in sports, let's work something fair out that still respects this principle instead of just saying "sorry trans girls - you can't play sports".
- Gender affirming care is health care, often involving life saving medical interventions. It is not cosmetic surgery.
- Trans people have a right to decide how and when they want to access that health care on the same basis that cis people access health care. This should be taxpayer funded when equivalent treatments, such as obesity or infertility treatments, for cis people are.
- Prisoners have rights to access life saving medical interventions, even though they are prisoners.
- Sometimes "rights" are in conflict but where this is the case, someone's right to exist and, for example, use a public bathroom, has to trump someone else's "right" not to feel uncomfortable.
- Trans rights are human rights. Not "the trans thing" that "we're all sick of hearing about" and "want to move on from".

Happy to have a discussion with people on specific policies. But I don't think we can "move on" from any of the statements of principle above and still call ourselves a party that values human rights and dignity. We need to hold our corner on those points instead of shying away from speaking about them because we're afraid of alienating centrists. People respect leadership, not pandering. If America isn't there yet on "the trans thing" then we need to figure out how to get them there by actually discussing it - not dodging the issue because it doesn't poll well.

[iemanja]

54. taxpayers don't fund fertility treatments, abortion, or even obesity, from what I am aware

Under what circumstances would the government fund such procedures? Private medical insurance does not fund those procedures, except for obesity surgery in case of extreme obesity.

Prisoners don't get basic health care. Surely you know that. And how is taxpayer funded surgery for undocumented prisoners an issue? It isn't. It affects no actual human beings. So why let the GOP cast the discussion in those terms?

We didn't hear from the Harris campaign about trans rights during the campaign. I submit that was a mistake because it allowed Trump to tie her to an extreme position that isn't even real, all because of that ridiculous ACLU quiz. Biden didn't answer the question, and he wasn't a bad president for trans rights, was he? Why did the party need to bend to the ACLU on taking quizzes like that. The party, I submit, needs to address the issue head on instead of letting the GOP control the messaging on the issue in the most extreme terms. I personally think it should, or might be, cast in terms of equal rights and people minding their own damn business.

[meadowlander]

60. Military personnel can access Ozempic, gastric bypass surgery, Viagra, and some fertility treaments.

Medicaid will fund Ozempic and gastric bypass surgery. So yes, there are examples of taxpayer funding going to obesity and fertility treatments.

And prisoners do get basic health care. If you have a heart attack while you are in prison, you are taken to the hospital. If you are pregnant, you receive prenatal care in prison and are taken to a hospital to deliver, not locked in your cell alone because you are a prisoner. If you are suicidal, you are provided with counseling.

Prisons have a duty of care to ensure that the people they are incarcerating do not become unnecessarily sick and die. Not providing medical care is cruel and unusual punishment which violates the 8th amendment.

https://jlm.law.columbia.edu/files/2017/05/35.-Ch.-23.pdf

Yes, surgery for prisoners is an edge case. But we should be able to speak to in terms of our values and rights in a way that most sensible people can understand.

Most sensible people can understand we don't want prisons letting people die from medical neglect.

[LearnedHand]

35. You got that right

[WhiskeyGrinder]

58. lol WOW this thread

[underpants]

84. This may be a DU record for Post Removed

I just got up to let the dog go outside. Too much to digest at 4:30 am

[Patton French]

87. A divisive issue, to be sure.

As much so here as anywhere else, sadly.

[Coventina]

70. What in the name of Godzilla happened?!?!?!?!?!

I posted this, had to go to a Dr. appointment, ran a few other errands and came back to this?!?!?!?!

[WhiskeyGrinder]

72. .

[JoseBalow]

77. "Trans voice that will not be silenced."

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

82. I'm with YOU!!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

81. This saddens me.

[Polybius]

101. Wow

I'm not touching this discussion.

[oldmanlynn]

102. This basically just talks about how Republicans have been controlling the narrative

I don’t know how much clearer it can get that Republicans, even as despicable as these different trump situations are just as despicable as they are. They’re still out there all the time with their BS and there’s no counter story. That ceding the airwaves to republicans.