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Hassin Bin Sober

(26,721 posts)
Sun Dec 1, 2024, 11:26 PM Sunday

Accepting a pardon is NOT necessarily an admission of guilt.

Last edited Mon Dec 2, 2024, 12:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Edit to add: this is in reference to people other than Hunter Biden who has already admitted guilt.

There are dozens of other Democrats and administration official that should probably receive pardons….

Plus any seal team 6 members who have a free weekend … I keed I keed


The Supreme Court case that people keep loosely referencing doesn’t say what people who quote it think it’s says.

The “imputation of guilt” was just one of the reasons cited in the Burdick case as a reason a person may reject a pardon. That statement in the opinion was “dicta” - not controlling or precedent.

Furthermore, one of the tenets of plenary pardon power has always been the power to prevent unjust prosecutions.

Yes, the Justice Department has volumes on their policies regarding acceptance of guilt. But that’s not law nor is it case law.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States#:~:text=Although%20the%20Supreme%20Court's%20opinion,by%20the%20recipient%20is%20disputed.


Justice Joseph McKenna delivered the opinion of the Court in favor of Burdick. The Court ruled Burdick was entitled to reject the pardon for a number of reasons, including the implicit admission of guilt and possibly objectionable terms contained in a conditional pardon. As Burdick was entitled to reject the pardon, he was also entitled to assert his right against self-incrimination under the Fifth Amendment.

Although the Supreme Court's opinion stated that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt and acceptance of a confession of it,"[1] this was part of the Court's dictum for the case.[3] Whether the acceptance of a pardon constitutes an admission of guilt by the recipient is disputed. In Lorance v. Commandant, USDB (2021) the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that "there is no confession and Lorance does not otherwise lose his right to petition for habeas corpus relief for his court-martial conviction and sentence. The case was remanded for further action not inconsistent with the court’s opinion."[4]


https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/ex-soldiers-acceptance-trump-pardon-didnt-constitute-confession-guilt-court-2021-09-23/

Ebel said no court since had ever held that accepting a pardon was akin to confessing guilt and that the ruling instead simply meant that accepting one "only makes the pardonee look guilty by implying or imputing that he needs the pardon."
"If the Court had meant to impute other, legal consequences to the acceptance of a presidential pardon, it surely would have said so explicitly," Ebel wrote.
And while Trump could have conditioned a pardon upon an admission of guilt, "the pardon was instead merely agnostic as to Lorance's guilt, not purporting to speak to guilt or innocence," Ebel


17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Accepting a pardon is NOT necessarily an admission of guilt. (Original Post) Hassin Bin Sober Sunday OP
He pleaded guilty in his cases. Frasier Balzov Sunday #1
he doesn't deny his guilt Skittles Sunday #2
I edited to add this is in reference to other potential trump targets. Hassin Bin Sober Monday #7
You are correct, that is a common myth. Nt Fiendish Thingy Sunday #3
Exactly, a pardon is an act of grace, it is not necessarily an admission of guilt. tritsofme Sunday #4
Which doesn't apply to Hunter as he had admitted his guilt Kaleva Monday #5
He said himself he was guilty, he's not a liar like the repugs. arthritisR_US Monday #6
At this point who cares? RockRaven Monday #8
This thread is about people who do probably need pardons and are in fact 100% innocent. This isn't about Hunter Hassin Bin Sober Monday #9
People who are innocent like Fauci, Cheney, etc don't need pardons b/c RockRaven Monday #10
"They will not be convicted" Hassin Bin Sober Monday #12
Right back at you. RockRaven Monday #17
The J6 insurrectionists will be happy to hear this Kaleva Monday #11
Do you honestly think those scumbags give two shits about any imputation of guilt? Or lack there of? Hassin Bin Sober Monday #13
As I said elsewhere, it's a nice little question for law professors and philosophers Prairie Gates Monday #14
Well it's backed by a ruling in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. So there's that ... Hassin Bin Sober Monday #15
It has no effect on anyone's life who has been pardoned Prairie Gates Monday #16

tritsofme

(18,616 posts)
4. Exactly, a pardon is an act of grace, it is not necessarily an admission of guilt.
Sun Dec 1, 2024, 11:40 PM
Sunday

That is just something Gerald Ford told himself to feel better about pardoning Nixon.

RockRaven

(16,371 posts)
8. At this point who cares?
Mon Dec 2, 2024, 12:18 AM
Monday

Anyone still using this as a "gotcha" is a weirdo dumbass living in the past, and anyone still trying to stand up for Hunter as if he was a poor victim is really missing the big picture of the problems which deserve our attention.

He did some things which were not legal... Most people do.
He got disproportionate attention because of who his father is... Disproportionate attention he had previously used to make a nice income -- the other side of that coin.
He was selectively prosecuted because of political considerations... Supposedly in the name of apolitical justice.
He attempted to plead guilty... The plea deal fell apart.
So the case proceeded...Now he's being pardoned.

But he did that shit, it's never really been much in doubt.

Who the heck is out there claiming he was truly innocent of those infractions? And what difference does it make to ANYONE not named Biden?

We have so much more relevant shit -- which is going to ruin everyone's lives -- to deal with in the immediate, short, medium, and long term that this issue does not register whatsoever. Wake the fuck up, everyone. This corner case is not worthy of your time and attention. Reject the cults of personalities media narratives.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,721 posts)
9. This thread is about people who do probably need pardons and are in fact 100% innocent. This isn't about Hunter
Mon Dec 2, 2024, 02:09 AM
Monday

People keep saying “won’t that mean they are guilty of something if Liz Cheney, Anthony Fauci, Adam Kinzinger plus all the state and local judges prosecutors/judges - pick one or all - receive a pardon?”

That’s who this is about. People that served admirably shouldn’t have to spend $500,000 in attorney fees when Kash PATEL starts investigating them for treason or whatever FARKAKTE charges the MAGA loons can dream up.

The last thing she need is a bunch of show trials and “Investigations”

RockRaven

(16,371 posts)
10. People who are innocent like Fauci, Cheney, etc don't need pardons b/c
Mon Dec 2, 2024, 04:57 AM
Monday

they will not be convicted by a jury. The unanimity requirement for a guilty verdict will prevent that.

And the purported pardon will not save them from the harassment, intimidation, and legal expenses described. What is being posited is a DOJ/FBI acting against current policies and guidelines about investigation and prosecution decisions. Okay, yeah, that is plausible if not likely. And so be consistent with that, follow that train of thought... Any such DOJ/FBI would not be constrained from engaging in the investigation, harassment, and incursion of massive legal expenses just because the person has already been pardoned. A prosecution or conviction is separate from the goal/purpose there. Nothing about a pardon inherently protects against that.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,721 posts)
13. Do you honestly think those scumbags give two shits about any imputation of guilt? Or lack there of?
Mon Dec 2, 2024, 10:03 AM
Monday

Those people are garbage. I’m talking about people who served honorably who are likey to have the full weight of the DOJ brought down in their heads - they deserve protection.

Prairie Gates

(3,211 posts)
14. As I said elsewhere, it's a nice little question for law professors and philosophers
Mon Dec 2, 2024, 10:38 AM
Monday

But it is utterly without force or import in any concrete affairs.

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