A Question

[H2O Man]

"So many in our nation — too many in our nation — have deeply felt the passage of time these last 20 years. Every birthday your loved one missed. Every holiday. Every time her favorite team won, or his favorite song came on the radio. Every time you’ve tucked in your children or dropped them off at college. You have felt every day, every week, and every year that has passed these 20 years. So, please know your nation sees you, and we stand with you, and we support you." —Vice President Kamala Harris, on Sept. 11, 2021, the 20th Anniversary of the Sept. 11th attacks


I was thinking about the events of 9/11 as I fed the birds this morning. I was home attempting to recover from an auto wreck (not my fault!) and was watching the morning news when there was a report that a small plane had hit one of the towers. Within minutes, coverage showed the second plane striking its target. The United States was being attacked.

By the evening, the news was reporting that our government was certain the attack was carried out by al-Qaeda, led by Usam bin Laden. In a 1998 interview with John Miller, he has spoke of bring an attack on American soil. But initially after 9/11, he had denied any involvement. Older forums here will remember that in the early days & years of DU, there was heated debate. Was it bin Laden, or PNAC?

There were some mighty curious conspiracy theories put forth. But there were also serious questions being asked, and I don't think all were answered by the 9/11 Commission. However, in December of 2001, bin Laden released a tape that hinted of the involvement he would speak of a few years later. He expressed his opinion that it would hasten "the end of the United States," and that brings me to my question:

Was he correct?

It's something I think about on the eve of the next attack upon the United States, starting January 20, 2025 at a level higher than before.

[xocetaceans]

1. Well...

...

Testimony of Richard Clarke, former White House counterterrorism coordinator:

TIMOTHY ROEMER, Commission Member: OK. With my 15 minutes, let's move into the Bush administration.

On January 25th, we've seen a memo that you've written to Dr. Rice urgently asking for a principals' review of Al Qaida. You include helping the Northern Alliance, covert aid, significant new '02 budget authority to help fight Al Qaida and a response to the USS Cole. You attach to this document both the Delenda Plan of 1998 and a strategy paper from December 2000.

Do you get a response to this urgent request for a principals meeting on these? And how does this affect your time frame for dealing with these important issues?

CLARKE: I did get a response, and the response was that in the Bush administration I should, and my committee, counterterrorism security group, should report to the deputies committee, which is a sub-Cabinet level committee, and not to the principals and that, therefore, it was inappropriate for me to be asking for a principals' meeting. Instead, there would be a deputies meeting.

ROEMER: So does this slow the process down to go to the deputies rather than to the principals or a small group as you had previously done?

CLARKE: It slowed it down enormously, by months. First of all, the deputies committee didn't meet urgently in January or February. Then when the deputies committee did meet, it took the issue of Al Qaida as part of a cluster of policy issues, including nuclear proliferation in South Asia, democratization in Pakistan, how to treat the various problems, including narcotics and other problems in Afghanistan, and launched on a series of deputies meetings extending over several months to address Al Qaida in the context of all of those inter-related issues. That process probably ended, I think in July of 2001. So we were ready for a principals meeting in July. But the principals calendar was full and then they went on vacation, many of them in August, so we couldn't meet in August, and therefore the principals met in September.

…

ROEMER: You then wrote a memo on September 4th to Dr. Rice expressing some of these frustrations several months later, if you say the time frame is May or June when you decided to resign. A memo comes out that we have seen on September the 4th. You are blunt in blasting DOD for not willingly using the force and the power. You blast the CIA for blocking Predator. You urge policy-makers to imagine a day after hundreds of Americans lay dead at home or abroad after a terrorist attack and ask themselves what else they could have done. You write this on September the 4th, seven days before September 11th.

CLARKE: That's right.

ROEMER: What else could have been done, Mr. Clarke?

CLARKE: Well, all of the things that we recommended in the plan or strategy -- there's a lot of debate about whether it's a plan or a strategy or a series of options -- but all of the things we recommended back in January were those things on the table in September. They were done. They were done after September 11th. They were all done. I didn't really understand why they couldn't have been done in February.

...

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB147/index.htm

So, W, being that he is stupid, incompetent and among many other things also a piss-poor painter, dropped the ball, and his administration did not treat the threat seriously enough. It is not clear, however, that W was ever more than passively incompetent.

Trump, in contradistinction, seems to be actively incompetent. Incompetence (though it's possibly selecting for loyalty over qualifications) seems to be Trump's actual objective in making nominations, whether choosing blatant partisans or relatives.

Can the coming incompetence and lack of focus of the Trump Administration destroy the USA? Possibly. That depends on world events: recall how badly that Trump mishandled (out of political considerations) the Covid-19 pandemic. So, if the coming Trump Administration actually ever concludes and the USA can survive the damage, maybe a recovery will be possible, but those are contingent upon a survival which is not guaranteed.

So, the question seems to be if there is a direct line between the actions of bin Laden and the present situation in which a convicted felon (selling him quite short by that mere description) is about to become President. It does not seem that such a line is the case.

Murdoch's Fox News, Gingrich's Contract with America, Limbaugh's radio program, the GOP's general policies, and neo-liberalism carried forward from the 1980s, all of which predate 9/11, seem to have contributed more significantly to the current situation and thus to whatever results from this situation than 9/11 itself.

That being said, though, the greatest contribution to the political situation in which the US finds itself now was made by Merrick Garland, our milquetoast AG, who could not bring himself to mount a legal case against Trump with the expedition that it so critically deserved.

[H2O Man]

5. I have Richard's book

on a shelf with many others covering that era. It is an important read.

I think some things that were well-intended get more corrupted as time goes forward. Ike was president when the idea of a continuing government plan was made. Ah, the days of practicing getting under our desks in grade school! Reagan up-dated it, though one might be safe in assuming his vice president was in charge of that. Heck, that administration attempted to greatly expand presidential powers with Iran-Contra, to avoid congressional oversight.

It it easy, considering the time we are in, to forget how awful the bush/Cheney administration was. Two wars, the Patriot Act, etc. John Dean's "Worse than Watergate" is on that shelf, too. Also one that I will quote from:


"Only hours after the September 11 attacks, the administration installed a 'shadow government' of about a hundred senior executive branch officials ..... White House chief of staff Andrew Card directs the shadow government from the White House, where he is immune from giving testimony to Congress (have we heard this before?) The shadow government is supposed to assume command in case of national emergency. Of course,this shadow government consists of one branch only, the executive branch.

" ...... Congress has not sanctioned the shaddow government, nor were members of Congress even made aware of its existence until the story was leaked in March 2002. This shadow government has been described as an 'indefinite precaution' ......The shadow government is presumed to continue its operation outside of congressional oversight."

-- Senator Robert C. Byrd, "Losing America: Confronting a Reckless and Arrogant President," ` Norton, 2004.


It may be a matter of a short time before, upon the advice of Bannon and Miller, that the felon declares a national emergency.

[xocetaceans]

19. I think that you are correct that it is easy to forget how terrible the years of W's administration were (and many...

... current voters were not of an age which would have allowed them to experience W's full "glory" as it were. ("catapulting the propaganda", "is our children learning?", etc., the Invasion of Iraq, torture, Gitmo, etc., nominating Harriet Miers, accepting John Yoo's rationalizations for torture, Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns", etc., sidelining research on forms of stem cells, etc., the financial collapse, etc.) Arguably, Trump might be seen as worse in terms of what he has done (the number of dead Americans due to Covid-19 on account of his politicized response and the strong anti-vaccine reaction which his handling of the situation induced in a large number of the US population) and of what he might yet do. As you noted, he might declare a national emergency, and that would likely be him just getting warmed up to cause all manners of damage to people and to the USA.

Thanks for referencing all three books. I had forgotten about the latter two which you mentioned.

[Easterncedar]

2. I think the answer is yes

The Shrub took us, and the world, very far down a dark and evil path. Just look at what is going on in the middle east and south asia. We led the world into violence and chaos. We could have tried for a legal reckoning. At least tried.

[DENVERPOPS]

8. "W" ??????????

W's brain was mush due to his years of Cocaine and Alcohol. The group running everything during the W administration was the Cheney/Rumsfeld, CABAL

And many members of that were in the HWBush CABAL, during the Reagan Administration......

The statement by the PNAC crowd in the late 90's seemed like a harbinger of a situation they could use in the future to rapidly shove ahead their other nefarious agendas......

And the PERPS of the 9/11 were almost entirely composed of Saudi's......

[H2O Man]

9. One of the most

obnoxious thing that shrub ever said was, "They hate us for our freedoms."

I think that right after 9/11, if the US had bombed Tora Bora -- where bin Laden reportedly was -- that would have made sense. But I remember, after the invasion, politicians in DC saying we had to stay to insure women's rights. I'm not unsympathetic, but I'm not sure the US really engages in military occupations for women's rights. We aren't bombing ourselves since Roe was overturned, for example.

[Easterncedar]

13. Ouch. That last line. Maybe we ought to have.

We always make things worse when we interfere. Poor Iran! Poor Afghanistan!

[H2O Man]

14. This reminds me

of part of an interview I did with Chief Paul Waterman. He was one of the Onondaga's Wisdom Keepers.


Q: President Bush has referred to the 'evil doers.' What do you think about this?

CPW: Well he's the same way. Those people in Afghanistan are so poor and miserable. They suffer when bombs kill their parents, and they hurt when bullets kill their children. So, even if Bush believes that what he is doing is right, he has to commit evil acts to achieve his goal.

But he can't stop. The other guy won't.And when they do kill bin Laden, someone will take hid place.

I feel bad for the soldiers, too. Most of them are young men. They are patriotic. Like those men ho fought in Desert Storm, for your 'national interest.' But I can't remember the price of gas dropping much since then. So who's interest was it in?"

[Saoirse9]

3. I don't know what the end result will be after 4 years

Last edited Mon Dec 2, 2024, 06:23 PM - Edit history (1)

But this country as we know it I believe, is over. It started happening in W's administration. I remembered how stunned I was that a covert agent was outed by W's people just because her husband told the truth about nukes in Iraq. That was cataclysmic in my book. It was a sign that the other side was willing to do ANYTHING to stay in power. I thought it was really telling that Bush would not endorse Kamala Harris even though the choice was between her and fascism. He himself wanted to be a fascist dictator. He brought all of us together because we all saw the handwriting on the wall even back then.

Bush didn't even win the election . . . . and definitely showed favoritism to the Bin Laden family after 9/11.

With some respite when Obama and then Biden were serving, we have been sliding faster and faster into fascism. Like trying to stay upright on an icy slope and sliding relentlessly into a bottomless pit.

Maybe cooler heads will prevail as they did after 45's first presidency and all the schmucks will be voted out. But we have a long way to go before that happens and loads of shit to wade through even after it happens, if it does.

Maybe the country will split again like we did during the Civil War. I think that's what I see. The same kind of insanity as back then.

There just isn't any reason to me, to hope for improvement after this. It has become about self preservation now.

[NJCher]

4. the situation as it is: untenable

Democrats fix everything after four years of republican stealing, chaos, misinformation, disinformation. Then Democrats get elected to put matters back in place. It gets old. I don't know how they do it.

It's sick. It just can't go on like this, yet there is nothing you can do with these people (Republicans). They are damaged, irrational, sick people. There is no hope for them.

I once thought instant runoff voting might help, but then I read an article that said it wouldn't.

Ultimately capitalism is the problem but that's not going anywhere.

I have no answers to this situation, but I am just glad I live in a blue state.

[Saoirse9]

6. I lived in your state for 7-8 years

A friend up there keeps telling me to come back, it will be safer. But I remember it being so expensive there. If we sold our house we would not be able to afford to buy one up there, I think.

[BobsYourUncle]

24. About the country splitting again...

I really have trouble envisioning how that would be accomplished locally:
-ten houses on the street—some red, some blue
-forty-some in the developmen (middle range prices—red and blue)
-bounded by trailer parks, middle to upper range developments, million-dollar homes on acreage, and multi-million dollar estate homes.
Repeat throughout this red county in my blue state. (I’ve only seen one barn with BIDEN painted on it.)

—-House-to-house warfare?

[Saoirse9]

25. Well I did say I don't know the end result

The country is already split the way you're describing. It will probably be along the same lines as Civil War -- if it happens.

[Viz]

7. A great question....

As the Trump Wrecking Ball continues to decimate norms, laws and democracy, I often think that the disaster of the Bush Jr years are falling into the memory hole of history. The damage he did to our military, the loss of life, getting us into 2 senseless wars so that he could be a "war President", opening an offshore prison camp of Guantanamo where people were tortured, his lack of response to people in need in NO with Hurricane Katrina, the list goes on and on. His deeds and administration should not be forgotten in the line of events that led to the election of DJT.

[H2O Man]

15. You nailed it!

Both Bush and Cheney would have been impeached by the House, and convicted by the Senate, if the Constitution was to be followed. They are both war criminals.

Over my years here, I've had a few well-meaning people tell me they aren't "war criminals" because they were not tried and convicted. I've always speculated that there are possible advantages to expanding our understanding. If my neighbor murders someone, but is never caught, tried, and convicted, he is still a murderer. Not being held responsible in no way changes that fact.

[returnee]

26. I wanted two things from Obama:

A pardon for Leonard Peltier and Bush/Cheney, Inc brought to justice. Leonard is still in prison and those others are free. They got away with war crimes. Guess I was asking too much. We keep letting our elected criminals off the hook.

[Mike 03]

10. Intelligent food for thought here.

Your posts are always the kind that demand careful attention and consideration.

First thoughts aren't always good ones, but my first thought when I read this was a very strong sense that it began before that, but it might just be that I was waking up politically and began to notice things during Clinton's presidency that I now think of as setting our destruction into motion.

I'm thinking of Newt Gingrich's new approach that the GOP should never work with Dems and should aspire to make everything they do fail. There were also those nasty, incoherent attacks on the Clintons, accusing them of things I couldn't believe "ordinary citizens" could accuse a sitting president of: killing Vince Foster, murdering (and raping) dozens of people, importing cocaine, suggesting Clinton would refuse to leave office at the end of his terms.

It was just strange. Remember "Black helicopters" and "concentration camps" built in the desert for American citizens? Ruby Ridge, the Freemen standoff, Oklahoma City, Waco and the downing of that airplane in New York were major events and a lot of people simply didn't believe anything the government said about them. There was immense doubt that our government was being honest with its citizens. I even remember having doubts about that airplane--shame on me for not being able to remember the callsign. They said it was brought down by a missile fired by our own navy IIRC.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I can't shake the feeling it began earlier than September 11, 2001.

But as is the case with so many of your thoroughly-considered posts, it merits greater reflection.

[H2O Man]

16. Thank you!

Newt's "Contract on America" -- as it should be known -- was 100% part of it. Their goal was to knee-cap the House's ability to function as it is intended to. I'm not saying that nothing good has come from the House since then -- for example, two impeachments and the J6 Committee. But there was long-term damage inflicted. And an intentionally damaged House reduces the ability for the Senate to do their jobs.

The USSC's selecting bush/Cheney as the winners of the 2000 presidential election damaged the Court. It was the first step towards the highest level of corruption of that institution that I am aware of.

I think that there were other things in fairly recent history that added to damage to the foundations of our society. I don't think 9/11 was an attack on a healthy, strong United States.

[Martin Eden]

11. Sept 11, 2001 ....... Jan 21, 2025

Sep 11:
Bin Laden knew one way to defeat a stronger enemy is to manipulate the enemy into squandering its power and support in counterproductive military quagmires such as Afghanistan, the "graveyard of empires."

Jan 21:
Putin knew one way to bring about the fall of the United States is to tear it apart from within, corrupting its institutions and turning the American people against each other.

When Vlad's orange asset entered the political scene, the divide and conquer strategy had been instigated for decades by an oligarchy that understood expanding their wealth and political power depended on turning Americans against each other. If The People were united in exercising the power of their vote, the obscene transfer of wealth to a small percent at the very top could not happen.

So in stepped a "populist" demogogue, manipulating the grievances and bigotry of an angry populace -- in service not only to the malefactors of great wealth, but to a former KGB agent who had his own motives for the disintegration of American institutions -- especially the NATO alliance.

The attack begins in earnest in about seven weeks, when The Felon and his sycophants wield the vast power of the presidency.

How much damage can they do to our institutions, and how quickly?

With slim majorities in Congress, will any old school Republicans -- under threat of being "primaried" if they don't fall in line -- take a stand on principle and their sworn oath to protect our Constitution?

Will American voters harmed by the destruction turn against The Felon and his Party and if so, will we still have legitimate elections in 2026?

I wish I had good answers to these questions, but what faith I had in my country was dealt a severe blow five weeks ago.

[PufPuf23]

17. Putin would be of no impact without the poor character, stupidity and greed of far too many Americans.

The USA and World is in a dire spiral and only a matter of time before major chaos.

All our institutions are compromised.

I say this as a strictly Democratic voter of over 50 years save voting for John Anderson to slow Reagan in the 1980 California POTUS primary.

No answers or even suggestions left to offer.

[Martin Eden]

18. Fertile Ground

Are human beings inherently different than a few generations ago? Perhaps history is cyclic. Empires rise and fall. The difference is that now we have the power to destroy, or signicantly degrade, the life sustaining ecosystems of this planet.

BTW, I've voted in every election since 1976. Only once did I vote in a Republican primary -- 1980, for John Anderson.

[PufPuf23]

22. Humanity has been cascading towards own destruction since the advent of fossil fuels and geometric population growth.

Cascading as opposed to cycles of history, new terrain for a very short time of human history.

Only solution is to reduce human footprint on the globe regards life sustaining ecosystems.

Voted in every election since 1972. Liked JFK as a child and remember his assassination and aftermath. First Democratic POTUS candidate was active for was Eugene McCarthy in 1968.

Started as a student at Cal when Reagan was California Governer. Resigned from federal service in 1985 after Reagan torpedoed the US Forest Service. I owed the Feds 6 years as they had paid me to attend 30 units of grad school after a BS Forest Science / Soil Science, set the date when obligation was met. That was frigging long time ago.

[H2O Man]

21. Right.

One of the things that Americans too often forget is that people and cultures around the globe do not all experience "time" in the same way we do.

Regarding how much damage they can do, and how quickly, one can only speculate. But from everything I've seen since the election, the felon seems to be clinging to grudges, and looking to inflict revenge.

[Martin Eden]

23. The Felon is a malignant narcissist intent on retribution

Whereas the Project 2025 team is motivated by a combination of "Christian" Nationalist ideology and unfettered greed.

It remains to be seen how much power Musk & Ramaswamy can actually wield, but if their recommendations turn into demands by The Felon with threats to R's in Congress if they don't fall in line, our institutions can suffer crippling blows from which recovery may be extremely difficult even if the political tides turn.

[malthaussen]

12. The purpose of terrorism is to spread terror.

You're a downy old bird, and you know as well as I that terrorists are not particularly interested in their personal survival, the cause is far more important than their life. Terror is intended to create oppression by encouraging the government to crack down in the fruitless attempt to "fight" terror. As the US passed bills like the Patriot Act and associated legislation, and began openly denying enemies any rights of due process, for the specious reasons that they were "terrorists" (alleged), or not subject to the conditions of the US Constitution because they weren't citizens, I told everybody who would listen (and a few who would not), "Well, the terrorists won." Lost quite a few friends over it.

Now, something like "The End of the United States" is rather too large an event to be evaluated from the inside, while it's happening. Reports of the "End" are exaggerated, as Mr Twain might say. But we're well on the road, and have been this whole century. And as opportunistic authoritarians use "terror" and made-up "crises" to accumulate more power and authority, it can be seen that we as a nation are willingly handing over our freedoms to gangsters who promise some chimerical "safety" in return for us donning our own shackles.

Mr Bin-Laden could not have been more pleased at the way the US reacted to his spectacular attack.

You may recall the war in Vietnam, and how we threatened to bomb the North back to the Stone Age if they didn't come to the table and agree to our demands. You may recall that we did bomb them back to the Stone Age, and it made not one whit of difference. You may also recall the things Võ Nguyên Giáp is reported to have said about the conflict, particularly "You will kill ten of us for each one of you we kill, and in the end it is you who will grow tired of it," and his reaction to a US officer who told him that the US forces won every battle from the military standpoint: "That is true. It is also irrelevant." Yeah, we sure taught them a lesson.

-- Mal

[H2O Man]

20. I agree.

I look back at the Vietnam era, and its associated horrors. And I think of the good from that era. Brutal, yet with beauty and potential.

I remember my sixth grade science teacher, saying that due to pollution, if not immediately solved, humans would be extinct in twenty years. That was six decades ago, and as noted, she taught science, not math. But she was passionate about the environment. That made an impression. And I was confident that my generation was going to save the world. She encouraged that.

It is such a different world today. At times when I think about the growing divisions in this country, it reminds me of the now old version of that science classroom. Some "kids" get it. Some don't. Some can parrot the information, without it taking hold. Some don't believe in science. Hence, I avoid class reunions.