Subway chokehold guy got charges dismissed.

[mobeau69]

Jury was deadlocked.

Cnn

[PeaceWave]

1. When the jury asked for the definition of "a reasonable person," the defense knew it couldn't lose.

[mobeau69]

2. Yep, think so.

[PeaceWave]

3. They may as well have asked for a definition of "the law."

[Deuxcents]

4. I was wondering why the charges in the first place..

People don’t want to help or intervene, even if it’s to protect others because of charges like this. Then the authorities say..and no one came to their defense..maybe this is why. I never thought there was anything but good intentions on the part of this young man

[Drum]

8. Hmmm...I think there is room for differing opinions on the appropriateness of this man's intervention.

But that’s how I see it. I think it was excessive, and he was unable to stop himself until the other man was dead. Horrifying, in my opinion, and avoidable.

[yagotme]

75. So far, I understand that Neely was still alive (if barely) when released, and Penny left.

I haven't seen the actual report if he died later on scene, or on the way to the hospital. Narcan and CPR were being performed in the sub car.

[Drum]

77. Odd isn't it that someone saving all of the passengers with such a maneuver wouldn't follow through

with live-saving efforts, or dealing with authorities?

Penny just left??

Hmmmm….

[yagotme]

79. He was advised to place Neely on his left side, to help avoid vomit from entering Neely's lungs,

which he did. 1st responders arrived, attended to Neely, Penny interviewed, and released. Was he supposed to push aside the professionals, and do it on his own? I didn't post the minute-to-minute event, as there seems to be some missing information in some parts, just a quick synopsis. Perhaps you could research some of it on your own, instead of humming...

[Drum]

80. Thank you for filling me in.

I just took your abbreviated post at face value, that “Penny left.” I did not search further for the actual details. Mea culpa.

[yagotme]

82. Here's Wiki's version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jordan_Neely

[Quiet Em]

26. Protect them from what?

A mentally ill man being vocal about being hungry? Neely never got physical with anyone on that train.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

28. People who ride the train daily know you just can't choke to death every person who acts out on the train.

[jimfields33]

76. My fear as well. I bet we see a decrease in help.

At least for awhile.

[Tommy Carcetti]

5. Dismissed or hung jury?

Technically if it's a hung jury they could re-prosecute.

[mobeau69]

9. Dismissed. Jury now considering lesser included charges.

[Tommy Carcetti]

14. Thanks. nt

[Prairie Gates]

6. No New York City jury was ever going to convict this guy

The Manhattan DA should have chosen not to waste everybody's time.

[markpkessinger]

7. This New Yorker would have voted to convict!

I ride the subways every day. I did NOT think Penny's actions were justified.

[Prairie Gates]

10. A jury takes 12

Find 12 eligibles that would convict. They didn't, and they almost certainly couldn't.

Again, though: they did not.

[markpkessinger]

13. I've served on a Manhattan criminal jury, and have lived here for over 40 years . . .

. . . To say they "couldn't have" found 12 jurors willing to convict? Come on, you don't know that and neither do I!

The jury I sat on was an attempted rape case. The defendant was an indigent, homeless guy. None of us necessarily wanted to convict him, and we did have some sympathy for his plight. But he was pulled off the victim by a cop who heard her screams from down the block, his erect penis expose through his open fly, so the case was pretty open and shut. One juror, however, was resistant. It took some work to convince her, but in the end, she, too, voted to convict.

As best I could tell concerning this case, New Yorkers were split on their opinions. It happens that this jury was had at least 1 member who was unwilling to convict; but that does not mean another jury wouldn't have been willing. That's just the crap shoot of the jury system.

[Tommy Carcetti]

15. I seem to recall a certain guy who got convicted by a Manhattan jury

34 times over.

[Prairie Gates]

20. Yes, Manhattan juries convict

But they wouldn't convict this guy because the case is a bit bozo.

[Tommy Carcetti]

23. I definitely think he's criminally responsible to some degree.

Guy with a hero complex kills someone who is unarmed.

Sorry you shouldn’t walk from that.

[Prairie Gates]

11. A jury takes 12 though

Find 12 eligibles that would convict. They didn't, and they almost certainly couldn't.

Again, though: they did not.

[Drum]

12. Agreed.

[Skittles]

17. six minute chokehold

sounds about as brave as shooting someone in the back

[ForgedCrank]

18. So do

rules of wrestling apply when a violent, drugged-out felon is behaving that way? Yea, I don' think so. I'm not letting him go after the pin is called either.

[Blue_Tires]

22. So he deserved summary execution, then?

Do all "violent, drugged out felons" deserve the same fate in your book? Because in that case I hope you're prepared to hunt down Donnie...

[ForgedCrank]

31. There was

no "summary execution".

ex·e·cu·tion
/ˌeksəˈkyo͞oSH(ə n/
noun
1.
the carrying out or putting into effect of a plan, order, or course of action.

2.
the carrying out of a sentence of death on a condemned person.
"the execution of juveniles is prohibited by international law"

The death was very obviously accidental, and everyone knows it. Trying to equate this to murder is ludicrous at best.The guy was indeed a drugged out, violent felon with active warrants, and he was threatening to kill people. but I suppose some people would have stepped back and le him do whatever he was going to do to other innocent people. I'm not one of those people.

[Quiet Em]

34. six minutes is not accidental

One witness claimed she heard a threat. No one else did. Sometimes witnesses imaginations fill in what they believe they saw or heard. Neely did not touch a single person on that train.

[ForgedCrank]

36. Of course

he was restraining him on purpose. The point here is that it's not murder. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

[Quiet Em]

38. He did more than restrain him.

He cut off his breathing for six minutes.

The charge was manslaughter, not murder.

[ForgedCrank]

39. Well I

suppose he should have just let him loose then so he could assault another woman.
Sounds reasonable to me. How could I have been so misguided?

[Quiet Em]

40. No woman was assaulted on the train that day.

That is not what the trail was about.

[ForgedCrank]

42. "No woman was assaulted on the train that day."

Exactly.

[Quiet Em]

45. Your don't seem to understand this at all.

What you are advocating for is not justice.

[ForgedCrank]

47. Ok

[Blue_Tires]

73. What the fuck do you think happens when you suffocate someone for 6 minutes?

[yagotme]

78. If he had ACTUALLY been "suffocating" him for 6 minutes, Neely would have been dead as a doornail

when the responders arrived. He was not. Still had a faint pulse, was administered Narcan, and CPR performed. 6 minutes in an actual full chokehold, where you are actually trying to kill the individual, you wouldn't have a pulse. I would even argue that the hold Penny was using wasn't even super aggressive, as it took a while for Neely to even pass out. Some of these videos of cage fighters knocking out an opponent in a few seconds with neck pressure holds are unreal. Neely was most likely on drugs, and that most likely caused additional stress on his body, in which the totality of the events that took place caused his demise. Don't get high, then threaten people on the subway with bodily harm, I guess. Bad things may happen to you, beyond your control.

[Blue_Tires]

71. Well since Donnie is a threat to all of us

Go find him and do what you hafta do, big guy...

[Quiet Em]

24. He had no weapon and he didn't touch anyone.

He was not physical with anyone. He was mentally ill and vocal about being hungry. A six minute chokehold is excessive. He's dead.

[ForgedCrank]

35. You left out

the word "yet". The man has a history of violence including felony assault on women, on subways.
"Vocal and hungry" is also a funny way to explain that he was screaming he was going to kill everyone.

Neely had an extensive criminal record, including 42 arrests on charges including petty larceny, jumping subway turnstiles, theft, and three unprovoked assaults on women in the subway between 2019 and 2021.

Mentally ill or not, he was violent, and a serious threat to the public in general. If we are going to be mad at someone, it should be the NYC justice system who let him run free and endanger the public.

[Quiet Em]

37. That's not how the legal systems works.

The trial was only about what happened on the train that day. Only one witness made that claim as I stated in a thread above. He was mentally ill and vocal about being hungry.

[ForgedCrank]

41. Ok, Ok, I get it.

You would have turned him loose to do whatever he was going to do. I understand your position.

[markpkessinger]

74. " The man has a history of violence including felony assault on women, on subways."

And Daniel Penny knew nothing of this when he chose to put him in a chokehold for 6 minutes. To invoke the guy's record as a justification for Penny's action is an after-the-fact rationalization!

[ForgedCrank]

86. I'm the

one doing that? Please.
It also appears that a common sense jury who saw all of the facts agrees with me, so there's that.

[electric_blue68]

56. I might have, and yes, I'm an NYCr.

[Polybius]

67. Agree 100%

That particular DA picks and chooses. He's tough on what he precives to be vigilantes. He prosecuted an older bodega owner for stabbing a criminal that went over the counter and was beating him.

In other areas where there's a real criminal, he's not tough enough at all.

[Prairie Gates]

70. Ugh

[Rebl2]

16. Disgusting

[TheProle]

19. Manslaughter charge against Daniel Penny dismissed, jury to continue deliberating lesser charge Monday

A judge granted a motion from Manhattan prosecutors to dismiss the more serious charge of second-degree manslaughter against Daniel Penny on Friday in his trial over the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway last year.

The ruling clears the way for the jury to consider a remaining lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide. It came after a Manhattan jury said they were deadlocked twice on the manslaughter charge and Penny’s defense attorneys renewed their motion for a mistrial.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/06/us/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-trial-verdict/index.html

[Blue_Tires]

21. Even if he was convicted, TFG would just pardon him

Last edited Sat Dec 7, 2024, 10:30 AM - Edit history (1)

👎

Edit: Okay, I know now that he wasn't facing federal charges

[Quiet Em]

25. Yeah, some ahole Republican in the House

is talking about giving Penny a Congressional Medal. It's sick.

[Shrek]

27. Not a federal charge n/t

[ProfessorGAC]

29. Or Not

It's a state charge.
Presidential pardons don't apply. No matter who is in the WH.

[kelly1mm]

33. How would he do that as he is not the Governor of NY? You do know this is a state crime, right? The President

can only pardon federal crimes.

[ThePartyThatListens]

30. Everything being the same except reverse the races of the individuals involved

Does anyone see this playing out the same way?

Justice was not served today.

[brush]

83. Exactly. White, male priviledge. The elephant in the room everyone on this thread is ignoring.

Come on people. The white guy killed an unarmed person who had touched no one. He should not get away with no punishment at all.

Lesser charges, ok, but no punishment as some are advocating. NOT OK.

What are we,in the jungle now and you can just kill some one?

We all know if the races of the two men was reversed, they'd throw the book at the Black guy.

[kelly1mm]

32. Good. This entire prosecution was serious overreach/overcharging. nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

43. You know what else was an overreach? Reaching around the victim's neck and strangling when the victim touched no one

Choke holds are deadly force.

The physical confrontation between Penny and the victim began with Penny choking the victim from behind and ended with Penny choking to death the victim from behind.

There was no other physical contact between the victim, Penny, or anyone else for that matter. Penny literally attacked the victim unprovoked from behind.

[Drum]

44. Exactly!

[kelly1mm]

48. Physical contact is not an element of the defense of 'defense of others'. The perpetrator in this

case is/was Mr. Neely, not Mr. Penny. One can only hope the lessor charge is also dropped.

[Quiet Em]

49. Penny was on trial. Not Neely.

Penny was on trial because his actions caused the death of Neely.

[kelly1mm]

50. Causing the death of another (if true) is not always a crime. Like in this case. nt

[Quiet Em]

51. Neely was not the perpetrator as you said.

Neely was not on trial.

[kelly1mm]

52. Yes he was. He was threatening people to the extent that a reasonable person could determine that a defense of others

was appropriate.

[Quiet Em]

53. a six minute chokehold is not reasonable

or appropriate.

[kelly1mm]

54. Even in NYC the jury seems to be questioning if it was. nt

[Quiet Em]

55. The jury was deadlocked

We don't know if one juror or more than one juror rendered it deadlocked. But it clearly wasn't all the jury or there would have been a not guilty decision from the jury.

[kelly1mm]

57. The result was that the top count was dismissed, no? Are you actually suggesting that guilty verdicts

in criminal cases not require a unanimous verdict?

[Quiet Em]

58. Yes. But Penny was not found not guilty.

The jury was deadlocked. It happens. The instructions for jurors are pretty clear, but sometimes there are holdouts. But clearly not everyone on the jury believed his actions were reasonable. .

[kelly1mm]

59. Agreed. Still the top count was dismissed (I argue as it should be) no? nt

[Quiet Em]

60. I'm not comfortable playing armchair juror

I didn't sit on that bench and hear and watch all the testimony and evidence. I have respect for our jury system.

I can just say that I believe Penny's actions were excessive and a man died. I believe there should be a penalty for that.

[kelly1mm]

61. I can just say that I believe Penny's actions were a reasonable defense of others. I believe there should not be a

penalty for that.

[Quiet Em]

62. Except nobody was harmed except Neely.

Neely didn't touch a single person. Being uncomfortable with a vocal mentally ill person is not life endangering.

[kelly1mm]

63. Again, physical contact and/or harm is NOT an element in a defense of others defense. nt

[Quiet Em]

64. Penny's actions and use of force did not meet reasonable self defense standards

of New York State law.

[kelly1mm]

65. It seems that a NYC jury disagrees with you beyond a reasonable doubt. By the way, the

same exact defense of others defense is available in the lessor included offence charge that they are coming back on Monday to deliberate so it is likely he walks (appropriately so IMO).

[Quiet Em]

66. Again, the jury was deadlocked.

They did not find him not guilty.

And the New York State law won't change before Monday. The jury may very well be deadlocked, again. Because apparently there is a least one hold out. It happens. It does not mean the entire jury found Penny not guilty.

[SunImp]

68. I think it's easy to see here how OJ got away with the murders

[Quiet Em]

69. OJ's jury reached a verdict, Penny's jury is deadlocked.

[kelly1mm]

81. He was found not guilty on Monday. By the entire jury.

[Quiet Em]

85. Yup.

I heard.

[Blue_Tires]

72. Interesting how so many cases of vigilantism against

Black victims are called "overreach"...

I've been away from DU for 10 years, and some things still haven't changed....

[Bettie]

46. White guy kills a black guy

unsurprising.

[GreenWave]

84. What was the size differential?

If Penny was significantly larger he should have taken that into account.