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4th

(106 posts)
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 12:44 PM Dec 9

Daniel Penny beams, crowd breaks out in applause as Marine vet is acquitted in subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely

Daniel Penny beams, crowd breaks out in applause as Marine vet is acquitted in subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely
https://nypost.com/2024/12/09/us-news/daniel-penny-cleared-of-all-charges-in-jordan-neelys-death/

A Manhattan jury has cleared Daniel Penny of criminal wrongdoing in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a crowded subway — a caught-on-video killing that sparked fierce debate over the city’s mental health system and crime underground.

The courtroom erupted in applause as the panelists acquitted Penny of criminally negligent homicide — which could have put him behind bars for up to four years — in Neely’s chokehold death aboard a crowded uptown F train in May 2023.

“We the jury have come to a unanimous decision on county two,” the foreperson on the jury told the courtroom.

Penny immediately broke out a huge smile and turned to hug defense attorney Thomas Kenniff — even as Neely’s father, Andre Zachary, was escorted from the courtroom.

“Racist f—ing country,” one Black Lives Matter supporter yelled as she left the room. Another Neely supporter, turning to Penney, screamed, “It’s a small world, buddy,” before leaving the room.

...


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Daniel Penny beams, crowd breaks out in applause as Marine vet is acquitted in subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely (Original Post) 4th Dec 9 OP
May all involved receive everything they deserve. niyad Dec 9 #1
Perhaps some already have... nt yagotme Dec 9 #2
Who do you think that is? nt Phoenix61 Dec 9 #3
Perhaps it's a vague reply to a vague reply... nt yagotme Dec 9 #4
Nothing vague about it. Most people have no difficulty understanding it. niyad Dec 9 #5
You were not specific about all those involved. Therefore, vague. yagotme Dec 9 #7
Do keep trying. This is most amusing. niyad Dec 9 #9
I'm glad that I could entertain you in this manner. yagotme Dec 9 #10
Come on, people. Have some lost their fucking minds? brush Dec 9 #6
At least one of the individuals that assisted Penny in the videos I have seen yagotme Dec 9 #8
As I said, Penny caused the death of an unarmed person who had touched no one. brush Dec 9 #11
You and I will have to disagree, then. yagotme Dec 9 #12
Ridiculous. A right of self-defense does not include choking someone who has not touched you and is unarmed... brush Dec 9 #13
Your statement was an absolute... yagotme Dec 9 #16
I don't think you've lived in NYC. If did you'd know the rules upon encountring a crazy person on the subway. brush Dec 9 #23
I like the Will Smith rule: yagotme Dec 9 #26
Ya just don't know do ya? Too many people are packin' nowadays. Best mind you business and/or move to the next car. brush Dec 9 #31
No, I'm not from NY. yagotme Dec 9 #32
Pls. common sense tells you not to choke someone for six minutes who hasn't touched you. brush Dec 9 #34
Got it. Just walk away as it's not your problem. MichMan Dec 11 #140
+1,000 BeerBarrelPolka Dec 9 #35
That is no justification for murder Cirsium Dec 11 #128
Read the whole thread. yagotme Dec 11 #142
So what? Cirsium Dec 11 #146
If you want to arrest, charge, prosecute, and mete out punishment to someone in NY, yagotme Dec 11 #150
irrelevant Cirsium Dec 11 #164
We're discussing an incident in NY. yagotme Dec 12 #169
Give it a rest. Read posts 127 and 131. You have no idea how racist some in NY are. brush Dec 11 #133
"Some" doesn't equal "all". yagotme Dec 11 #143
Stop defending racism. White male privileged Penny caused the death of a Black man... brush Dec 11 #145
There WERE charges. 2, total. He was found innocent by a jury of his peers. yagotme Dec 11 #148
Eyes open please. It's obvious racism. Wake up. brush Dec 11 #153
Again, I ask, show me where it is patently, obvious racism. yagotme Dec 11 #154
No matter what is shown, posted or referred to you, you come back with the same stuff. brush Dec 11 #155
You have NEVER come back with anything solid about this being racist, other than the color difference. yagotme Dec 11 #156
Be who you are. Watch this video. Hear how the cops treated Penn buddy-buddy. brush Dec 11 #157
I guess the POC witnesses were racist, too. yagotme Dec 11 #158
Be who you are. Did you vote for trump? brush Dec 11 #159
Should I even answer? yagotme Dec 11 #160
I noticed you didn't answer if you voted for trump. brush Dec 11 #161
I did, in a way, if you were paying attention. nt yagotme Dec 11 #162
I suspected as much, so hardcore defending obvious racism. brush Dec 11 #167
I suspected you suspected, thus, the answer I gave. yagotme Dec 12 #171
It is New York Keepthesoulalive Dec 10 #127
I know exactly what you're talking about. I remember "Guiliani Time" and the racist cop/... brush Dec 11 #131
Stop and frisk Keepthesoulalive Dec 11 #134
Yep, all of that. And we could go on and on and on. brush Dec 11 #135
So you're not allowed to respond if threatened? DenaliDemocrat Dec 9 #14
Do ya understand plain English? Penny was not touched. The guy was unarmed. brush Dec 9 #18
He was charged SickOfTheOnePct Dec 9 #80
I heard. So it's open season on disoriented, unarmed people... brush Dec 9 #81
We'll have to agree to disagree SickOfTheOnePct Dec 9 #84
You're correct. Bit the dead guy's family feels great about i... brush Dec 10 #95
Why BeerBarrelPolka Dec 10 #97
Oh please. Blame others but not the guy who caused the death. brush Dec 10 #99
You're BeerBarrelPolka Dec 10 #102
And you're the one who blamed them instead of the guy who caused Neely's death. brush Dec 10 #103
Maybe BeerBarrelPolka Dec 10 #104
Since we know Nothing about what his family has, has not done don't go judging them... electric_blue68 Dec 10 #121
I understand verbal threats can result in actions DenaliDemocrat Dec 9 #85
The man is dead, for God's sake. Penny didn't have enough sense to know choking someone for... brush Dec 9 #86
Whatever DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #89
You would have shot him? Guess who's in the same boat you're in? brush Dec 10 #90
If you come screaming at my car DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #100
Your car was not able to move? brush Dec 10 #101
My state has No Duty to Retreat DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #105
It's might be just me but I'd rather move instead of blasting away at someone. brush Dec 10 #107
I can't move DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #109
I meant move in your car. brush Dec 10 #111
You have an excuse for everything DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #113
Sorry, we're not on the same wave length. I don't want complexities in life involving shooting someone. brush Dec 10 #114
Yeah - you don't HAVE to stand in harm's way DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #115
Dude, I'm not judging you. I just asked if you could move away by driving away. brush Dec 10 #116
Uh huh DenaliDemocrat Dec 10 #117
What are you so angry and bitter about? I don't know you... brush Dec 10 #118
Why are you casting negative motives on this poster? IF you were in a car even if disabled could you move? Maybe you... electric_blue68 Dec 10 #124
Again DenaliDemocrat Dec 12 #168
Word to the wise, unwise really. Have enough sense to not choke someone for 6 minutes. brush Dec 10 #94
Thanks Cirsium Dec 11 #129
Thank you. I have to push back. The guy getting applauded and getting off Scott free is just too much. brush Dec 11 #132
I appreciate what you are doing Cirsium Dec 11 #149
Thank you. Glad there are some who know injustice when it stares them in the face. brush Dec 11 #152
"Touched" is not the standard FBaggins Dec 10 #92
Have enough sense to not choke someone for 6 minutes. brush Dec 10 #93
Sounds like reasonable advice FBaggins Dec 10 #96
Not being guilty of a crime? He caused the death of another human being. brush Dec 10 #98
See post 23. There are subway rules NYers know. brush Dec 9 #27
So, violation of unwritten subway rules by non-NY'ers should lead to imprisonment. yagotme Dec 9 #33
You're not making sense. If you kill someone who has not touched you... brush Dec 9 #36
You're missing the point. yagotme Dec 9 #40
Ok, Ms/Mr/Miss/Mrs police officer, show me that law in the books where that's Ok. brush Dec 9 #42
Here ya go, Art 35 NY Penal Law. yagotme Dec 9 #45
Nope,no one was touched. Guy was unarmed. brush Dec 9 #47
Here's the paragraph again, since it appears you didn't read it. yagotme Dec 9 #51
A-h-h-h-h-h sorry. Neely was not trying to commit larceny. brush Dec 9 #57
Is reading the bottom half of a paragraph the way you make opinions? yagotme Dec 9 #59
Be clear, what knocks my argument out of the water? brush Dec 9 #63
Or if the person you are detaining is threatening bodily harm to other individuals, that may not be yagotme Dec 9 #65
The case is over. Penny got away with killing him. brush Dec 9 #67
Yes, I'm aware you see racism everywhere. yagotme Dec 9 #68
Ok. Yelling you're hungry is threatening bodily harm now? brush Dec 9 #71
You must have missed the part about witnesses claiming that he was THREATENING them. yagotme Dec 9 #72
I'd like to know what was said besides yelling he was hungry? Do you that? brush Dec 9 #73
Here's some: (watch video) yagotme Dec 9 #74
It's like the prosecutor said, his intentions were good but he went too far. brush Dec 9 #75
So, do you agree now that my statements were correct? yagotme Dec 9 #76
I'm not switching anything. I've been very clear that there should be some form or... brush Dec 9 #77
Even if he's not found guilty of anything??? yagotme Dec 9 #78
This message was self-deleted by its author MichMan Dec 9 #55
Yes BeerBarrelPolka Dec 9 #43
I disagree. NYers know to not engage with crazy passengers on the subway. brush Dec 9 #52
The jury acquitted him on the lessor charge; the case is over MichMan Dec 9 #56
That's foul. Open season on unarmed and disoriented and apparenty insane people. brush Dec 9 #60
Well, after posting a paragraph from the law, and posting it again, yagotme Dec 9 #53
Why do you think the faint pulse detected has any relevance? Quiet Em Dec 9 #44
Because, if the true intent had been to kill Neely, Penny was doing a horrible job. yagotme Dec 9 #46
Penny was successful in killing him. Quiet Em Dec 9 #49
Technically, he was alive when Penny walked away. yagotme Dec 9 #54
What? Quiet Em Dec 9 #61
Fact: 1st responders detected a faint pulse upon arrival, administered yagotme Dec 9 #62
I was questioning you calling the paramedics racist. Quiet Em Dec 9 #64
If "race absolutely played a role in his death", and he died in the care of the yagotme Dec 9 #66
Penny succeeded in killing him. Quiet Em Dec 9 #70
As a NCY'r who Has been in a Subway Car with some loud people w mental illness feeling very uncomfortable... electric_blue68 Dec 10 #123
Read post #45. NY law. yagotme Dec 11 #141
They already ForgedCrank Dec 9 #58
Sighhhh niyad Dec 9 #83
I knew, from the beginning, Sundance1220 Dec 9 #15
100% agree. comradebillyboy Dec 9 #19
Spot on BeerBarrelPolka Dec 9 #38
Totally agree BeerBarrelPolka Dec 9 #37
I HAVE been in that Situation; several times. Very Uncomfortable!!! B&b NYC'r... electric_blue68 Dec 10 #125
They overcharged Sundance1220 Dec 11 #139
Not surprised at this verdict or the reaction. Elessar Zappa Dec 9 #17
So murder is okay now? tenderfoot Dec 9 #20
It is very victim dependent nt sarisataka Dec 9 #21
If I ever see Kyle Rittenhouse I'll ask him. Emile Dec 9 #22
Who was charged with murder? Bonx Dec 9 #24
Found one of the cheerers tenderfoot Dec 9 #25
Found a person that doesn't understand our legal system Bonx Dec 9 #28
Am I raining on your celebration? tenderfoot Dec 9 #29
open season on the homeless DBoon Dec 9 #30
Thank you. Why are so few on this thread who don't seem to get that... brush Dec 9 #39
What we have always been Keepthesoulalive Dec 11 #136
Yeah, it goes way back in NY. "Giuliani Time", trump and the Central Park Five. brush Dec 11 #137
What if SEVERAL someone's thought he was a threat? yagotme Dec 9 #41
yes, then it becomes a lynch mob DBoon Dec 9 #48
I think your definition of that term, and mine, are quite different. yagotme Dec 9 #50
I'm very afraid that's true. mountain grammy Dec 9 #87
Oh, dear. electric_blue68 Dec 10 #126
Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 9 #69
I won't weigh in on this, but I find it ironic how some had no problem rationalizing the killing of the UHC executive a JohnSJ Dec 9 #79
Bingo. Total double standard. PeaceWave Dec 9 #88
Exactly nt Raine Dec 11 #138
I didn't see a lot of people rationalizing the CEO's death. Elessar Zappa Dec 11 #163
six minute choke hold Skittles Dec 9 #82
The court of public opinion doesn't matter. He was acquitted by a jury... PeaceWave Dec 10 #91
The word hypocrite sure has become popular around here. Ilikepurple Dec 10 #122
Perspective from CNN Kilgore Dec 10 #106
Jordan Neely suffered with mental illness and went into deep despair when his mother Quiet Em Dec 10 #108
Misdirected anger Kilgore Dec 10 #112
Misdirected anger from who? Quiet Em Dec 10 #119
Exactly my point Kilgore Dec 10 #120
He is a murder victim Cirsium Dec 11 #130
Would your opinion be different if he was actually committing assault against a mother and her child? yagotme Dec 11 #144
No idea what is going on in your mind Cirsium Dec 11 #147
I'm asking if your opinion still stands, with different scenarios in play. yagotme Dec 11 #151
It is not clear Cirsium Dec 11 #165
Yes, I am giving out different scenarios. yagotme Dec 12 #170
Why are people surprised? Blue_Tires Dec 10 #110
Ahhhhhhhhhhh Cirsium Dec 11 #166
Are you aware that at least one of the people that helped restrain Neely was a POC? yagotme Dec 12 #172

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
7. You were not specific about all those involved. Therefore, vague.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:17 PM
Dec 9

I was not specific in my reply. Therefore, vague. The other poster requested specifics on my vague post, and I gave him my answer.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
10. I'm glad that I could entertain you in this manner.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:26 PM
Dec 9

Some entertainment is needed after the bleak past month.

brush

(58,022 posts)
6. Come on, people. Have some lost their fucking minds?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:17 PM
Dec 9

This is white, male privilege. That's the huge elephant in the room everyone is ignoring.

Penny caused the death of an unarmed person who had touched no one. He should not get away with no punishment at all.

Lesser charges, ok, but no punishment as some are advocating. NOT OK.

What are we,in the jungle now and you can just kill some one?

We all know if the races of the two men was reversed, they'd throw the book at the Black guy.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
8. At least one of the individuals that assisted Penny in the videos I have seen
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:24 PM
Dec 9

appeared to be a POC. Were they charged??? No. Neely was still technically alive when the 1st responders took over, and if Penny had him in a true "choke hold", and was actually trying to kill him, he was doing a pretty lousy job of it. Neely was threatening other passengers, and had allegedly thrown trash at them (Not touching anyone?), and passengers testified that they were fearful of Neely.

As far as the book, Penny faced 2 separate charges for 1 incident, and a jury of his peers basically threw them out. That's how our system is supposed to work. What SHOULD have happened to Penny, other than what did?

brush

(58,022 posts)
11. As I said, Penny caused the death of an unarmed person who had touched no one.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:34 PM
Dec 9

Do I have to repeat that again? He caused Neely's death with a six minute choke hole.

There should be some punishment for that. I don't care who assisted him or anything else. We're not in the jungle. A person who caused another person's death should not go unpunished.

That should be plain as day to everyone.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
12. You and I will have to disagree, then.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:39 PM
Dec 9
A person who caused another person's death should not go unpunished.

I believe in a person's right to self defense. Apparently, you do not. Not without punishing the defender. But, what if it's a traffic accident? An unavoidable one? Should the driver of a vehicle be imprisoned for something they did not have any control over? Absolutes are, well, absolute.

brush

(58,022 posts)
13. Ridiculous. A right of self-defense does not include choking someone who has not touched you and is unarmed...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:48 PM
Dec 9

until the person is nearly dead, and in fact did die...have you lost your humanity entirely?

I'll put it bluntly again, if the races of the choker and the dead guy were reversed, the Black guy would've had the book thrown at him.

Penny should be charged and convicted for causing the death of another human being..l.whatever lesser charge that is.

It smacks of racism strongly if he is not.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
16. Your statement was an absolute...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:01 PM
Dec 9
A person who caused another person's death should not go unpunished.

You didn't address my questions about this sooo...

A right of self-defense does not include choking someone who has not touched you and is unarmed

Self defense, and the defense of others. You must have missed the part about other passengers being fearful of Neely. And being unarmed, and being detained without arms, would be an equivalent force.

I'll put it bluntly again, if the races of the choker and the dead guy were reversed, the Black guy would've had the book thrown at him.

We don't know that for sure, guesses don't count, and I'll put it bluntly again, Penny was charged two offences for one incident. The prosecutor was TRYING to convict him, on anything.

Penny should be charged and convicted for causing the death of another human being..l.whatever lesser charge that is.

Sounds like you have already viewed all the evidence, conducted the trial, found him guilty, and are waiting to sentence him. What sentence do you wish to impose on him?

It smacks of racism strongly if he is not

So, if a case doesn't go the way YOU feel it should go, it's racism. OK.

brush

(58,022 posts)
23. I don't think you've lived in NYC. If did you'd know the rules upon encountring a crazy person on the subway.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:18 PM
Dec 9

First of all, never make eye contact with them so they don't zero in on you. Second, move to the far end of the subway car because they usually smell. All NYers who ride the subway know that unwashed smell as soon as they get in subway car, and you also notice that everyone else has moved to the opposite end of the car.

You mind your own business, even move to the next car through the rear door if you want to.

One does not engage with them, especially touching someone who has not touched you. Apparently ex-Marine Penny, obviously not a NYer, did not know the rules. And apparently many others on this thread don't either.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
26. I like the Will Smith rule:
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:25 PM
Dec 9

"Don't START nothin, won't BE nothin'"

Perhaps your subway rules need revision, if it's OK to verbally and (on occasion) physically assault individuals you are locked in a metal tube with. Just my 2 cents.

brush

(58,022 posts)
31. Ya just don't know do ya? Too many people are packin' nowadays. Best mind you business and/or move to the next car.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:40 PM
Dec 9

Obviously not a NYer right?

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
32. No, I'm not from NY.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:46 PM
Dec 9

That doesn't mean I have to throw common decency and civility out the window if I happen to visit. Perhaps a list of these rules needs to be posted on the NY visitor's website. I'm sure that will certainly help tourism.

Best mind you business and/or move to the next car.

And, if that doesn't work, and you're followed???

brush

(58,022 posts)
34. Pls. common sense tells you not to choke someone for six minutes who hasn't touched you.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:49 PM
Dec 9

Ya don't have to be from NY to know that.

MichMan

(13,553 posts)
140. Got it. Just walk away as it's not your problem.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 08:40 AM
Dec 11

See an elderly person being robbed and brutalized or a woman sexually assaulted ? Too bad for them.

No reason to get involved right?

Cirsium

(1,154 posts)
128. That is no justification for murder
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 12:24 AM
Dec 11

"People were afraid" is no justification for the murder of an unarmed man who had touched no one.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
142. Read the whole thread.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 10:56 AM
Dec 11

I posted a paragraph from NY law, several times. "Touching" isn't a prerequisite.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
150. If you want to arrest, charge, prosecute, and mete out punishment to someone in NY,
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:18 PM
Dec 11

you'd BETTER be talking about NY law.

Cirsium

(1,154 posts)
164. irrelevant
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 03:32 PM
Dec 11

I don't want to "arrest, charge, prosecute, and mete out punishment to someone in NY." I want to engage people's humanity right here in this discussion.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
143. "Some" doesn't equal "all".
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 10:59 AM
Dec 11

Show me, SPECIFICALLY, where racism was involved. Show me how Penny restraining Neely with a neck hold is racist, and in the same breath, protecting POC is racist, also.

brush

(58,022 posts)
145. Stop defending racism. White male privileged Penny caused the death of a Black man...
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:11 PM
Dec 11

yet was found innocent of all charges. There's a dead body but he walks free while getting applauded. No charges at all.

Racism pure and simple. You know nothing about NY. We POCs who live/lived there know, as cited in the many examples in the posts I told you to look at. This case is just another example. There should've been some charges.

Why do so many whites defend obvious racism?

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
148. There WERE charges. 2, total. He was found innocent by a jury of his peers.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:16 PM
Dec 11

How many witnesses were POC? How many jurors were POC? Are POC racism supporters? Is the POC that assisted in holding Neely down a racist, also?

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
154. Again, I ask, show me where it is patently, obvious racism.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:47 PM
Dec 11

Just because one is white, the other a POC, doesn't mean racism is involved. I need more proof than just that.

brush

(58,022 posts)
155. No matter what is shown, posted or referred to you, you come back with the same stuff.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:53 PM
Dec 11

Live with who you are. It's you. Be happy.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
156. You have NEVER come back with anything solid about this being racist, other than the color difference.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 02:00 PM
Dec 11

Just your opinion that it is.

Live with who you are. It's you. Be happy.

Same for you.

brush

(58,022 posts)
157. Be who you are. Watch this video. Hear how the cops treated Penn buddy-buddy.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 02:05 PM
Dec 11

but I don't expect anything different from you.

One more question. Did you vote for trump?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/132136828

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
158. I guess the POC witnesses were racist, too.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 02:10 PM
Dec 11

Along with the POC guy that helped restrain Neely. I've covered this already, but, as to some of our earlier back and forths, I seem to need to keep pointing out the same facts than you seem to want to ignore.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
160. Should I even answer?
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 02:25 PM
Dec 11

You seem to ignore my direct questions, and view anything I say with incredulity, so I am of the belief that no matter what I say, you're going to believe what you believe. As far as the video goes, the interviewer got a few facts wrong, so I'm not sure of her overall effectiveness, and having a family member opine about Penny's treatment, when he wasn't actually present, isn't high on the case winning scale. Tell me, if Neely had received the time in prison that he SHOULD have (like you believe Penny should), would he be alive today?

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
171. I suspected you suspected, thus, the answer I gave.
Thu Dec 12, 2024, 10:28 AM
Dec 12

You already "knew" how I voted, so what was the point of answering?

And, AGAIN, show me the "obvious racism". I have asked more than once, and have yet to receive an answer...

Keepthesoulalive

(808 posts)
127. It is New York
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:36 PM
Dec 10

Which has never been a beacon of justice for black or Hispanic people. Think of the past mayors and the draconian policies they enacted. Please don’t get me started on NYPD.

brush

(58,022 posts)
131. I know exactly what you're talking about. I remember "Guiliani Time" and the racist cop/...
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 12:31 AM
Dec 11

assaulting and raping Abner Louiema with a broomstick, Patrick Dorisman getting beat up and Amadiu Diallo getting shot up 40 some times in his doorway and killed reach for his key. Some of these naive people on this thread have no idea how racist some are in NY.

Imagine, applauding the guy who caused another man's death and getting off Scott free.

Keepthesoulalive

(808 posts)
134. Stop and frisk
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:35 AM
Dec 11

The central park 5. Gentrification , the village and Harlem could be any street in any city . They have no soul.

DenaliDemocrat

(1,556 posts)
14. So you're not allowed to respond if threatened?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:51 PM
Dec 9

The man was threatening everyone. I feel bad because mentally ill people do not get the care they desperately need. I reject the premise that threatening someone does not allow reprisals.

brush

(58,022 posts)
18. Do ya understand plain English? Penny was not touched. The guy was unarmed.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:04 PM
Dec 9

Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

If Penny had been touched/attacked, ok, then he should protect himself. Is everyone forgetting what assault is? You can't just choke hold someone within and inch of life without being charged.

That's what Penny did.

See post 23.

brush

(58,022 posts)
81. I heard. So it's open season on disoriented, unarmed people...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:41 PM
Dec 9

who yell that they are hungry? One can have good intentions but go too far and accidentally kill a person but you get off Scott free. Nothing, not even a couple of months in jail, or at least probation?

Something is wrong with that.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,383 posts)
84. We'll have to agree to disagree
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 07:21 PM
Dec 9

He was doing much more than just yelling that he was hungry. He was threatening people verbally, and acting in a very aggressive manner, and a number of people on the train felt threatened by him.

brush

(58,022 posts)
95. You're correct. Bit the dead guy's family feels great about i...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:37 AM
Dec 10

the guy who didn't have enough sense to not choke someone for six minutes goes Scott free.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,439 posts)
97. Why
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:57 AM
Dec 10

Why didn't the "dead guys family" have enough sense to get him the mental help he needed to keep him off the streets and prevent more harm than he already committed?

brush

(58,022 posts)
99. Oh please. Blame others but not the guy who caused the death.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:02 AM
Dec 10

The guy had people helping him hold the guy down. Just stop choking for God's sake.

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,439 posts)
104. Maybe
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:16 AM
Dec 10

Maybe they are to blame? If they knew what a proven threat he was and did nothing about it, they are culpable. I have no idea his relationship with his family though, so it's speculation.

electric_blue68

(18,685 posts)
121. Since we know Nothing about what his family has, has not done don't go judging them...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:33 PM
Dec 10

Sometimes people with mental illness hate the side effects of some the meds, and stop taking them. A family can't monitor everything.

brush

(58,022 posts)
86. The man is dead, for God's sake. Penny didn't have enough sense to know choking someone for...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 10:07 PM
Dec 9

six minutes is not good for a person's life. In fact if not for that choking the man could still be alive. He was unarmed, didn't attack anyone, kept yelling he was hungry...not a cause to be nearly choked to death. In fact, the man did die.

Wouldn't want to be that choker's wife or girlfriend as he might lose control again.

That seems to be a foreign concept to many here.

DenaliDemocrat

(1,556 posts)
89. Whatever
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:47 AM
Dec 10

You can’t go around threatening violence and throwing stuff at people. I had a guy road rage at me and rushed my vehicle. I was scared. If I had been armed, I probably would have shot him.

DenaliDemocrat

(1,556 posts)
100. If you come screaming at my car
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:03 AM
Dec 10

Waving your arms and slamming the hood- yeah. I am prepare to defend myself. I’m old and have a disability.

DenaliDemocrat

(1,556 posts)
105. My state has No Duty to Retreat
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:18 AM
Dec 10

You should Google that term. You seem to espouse a belief that you have to be struck or actually in the middle of being assaulted before you have a right to defend yourself. That’s wrong. I suggest you take a CCW course. They explain it in great detail.

BLUF. If you approve aggressively, screaming, threatening, and throwing things making me fear for my life - I am allowed to defend with deadly force.

You may not like it - but that’s the law.

brush

(58,022 posts)
107. It's might be just me but I'd rather move instead of blasting away at someone.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:32 AM
Dec 10

Sounds like you prefer the other option.

DenaliDemocrat

(1,556 posts)
109. I can't move
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:24 PM
Dec 10

You should be thankful you can. Not all of us are so blessed. You seem to think what is right for you works for everyone. Healthy person privilege. Be thankful you aren’t disabled.

brush

(58,022 posts)
114. Sorry, we're not on the same wave length. I don't want complexities in life involving shooting someone.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 01:15 PM
Dec 10

DenaliDemocrat

(1,556 posts)
115. Yeah - you don't HAVE to stand in harm's way
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 02:20 PM
Dec 10

I DO! And you think you have a right to judge even though you don’t walk in my shoes.

We are on different wavelengths and there could have been people on that subway just like me.

Quit being so sanctimonious. You’re truth isn’t everyone’s.

brush

(58,022 posts)
116. Dude, I'm not judging you. I just asked if you could move away by driving away.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 02:53 PM
Dec 10

Nothing more.

brush

(58,022 posts)
118. What are you so angry and bitter about? I don't know you...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 05:33 PM
Dec 10

never did anything to you or corresponded with you before just asking if you could get away from a situation by driving away.

I don't get it.

electric_blue68

(18,685 posts)
124. Why are you casting negative motives on this poster? IF you were in a car even if disabled could you move? Maybe you...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:01 PM
Dec 10

could not. That could make you feel vunerable.
But you're seemingly not clear about whether you were inside your car or not unless I misread your posts. Obviously a scary experience if someone's screaming and pounding on your car while you're inside.

And while not permanently disabled I have been in the processes of recovering from several sprained ankles w cane in hand gingerly making my way through the subway. Kind of nervous, not able to move fast, or turn fast at all.

brush

(58,022 posts)
94. Word to the wise, unwise really. Have enough sense to not choke someone for 6 minutes.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:33 AM
Dec 10

That's just dumb.

We should've all learned that from watching the cop who killed George Floyd by choking him with a knee on the neck.

Cirsium

(1,154 posts)
129. Thanks
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 12:27 AM
Dec 11

Thanks for your patience on this. The posts on this thread justify the murder are horrifying.

brush

(58,022 posts)
132. Thank you. I have to push back. The guy getting applauded and getting off Scott free is just too much.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 12:36 AM
Dec 11

FBaggins

(27,802 posts)
92. "Touched" is not the standard
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 07:57 AM
Dec 10

There are no crimes that can someone to jail for life that are not threats to the other passengers. And, of course, we now know that he had assaulted multiple people in the subway in recent years.

It was not at all unreasonable to treat him as a threat (since he was). That doesn’t mean that it’s ok to cause his death - but it means it isn’t a crime.

brush

(58,022 posts)
93. Have enough sense to not choke someone for 6 minutes.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:29 AM
Dec 10

That's not rocket science for God's sake. There were others helping to restraint the guy. Just hold him down, don't keep choking.

FBaggins

(27,802 posts)
96. Sounds like reasonable advice
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:54 AM
Dec 10

But he isn’t a trained law-enforcement officer. Anyone is free to criticize his decisions - but not free to imagine that their criticism standard carries the same weight as the standards for which a violation is a criminal offense.

He should have done better - but he isn’t guilty of a crime for failing to do so.

brush

(58,022 posts)
98. Not being guilty of a crime? He caused the death of another human being.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:59 AM
Dec 10

Something is wrong with him going Scott free.

No jail time, no house arrest, not probation even?

IMO that's not justice.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
33. So, violation of unwritten subway rules by non-NY'ers should lead to imprisonment.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:48 PM
Dec 9

Gotcha.

brush

(58,022 posts)
36. You're not making sense. If you kill someone who has not touched you...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:52 PM
Dec 9

and is unarmed, of course there should be punishment.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
40. You're missing the point.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:04 PM
Dec 9

It's lawful to restrain someone if they are being aggressive towards others, whether they touched you or not. Only matters if the others are in fear of death or harm. It's not like Penny took a gun out and started blazing away. If he had been intent on killing Neely, he was doing a bad job of it, as I stated earlier. Could have killed him a lot quicker if that had been the true motive. And, for arguments sake, in case you missed it, Neely was still technically alive when Penny released him.

brush

(58,022 posts)
42. Ok, Ms/Mr/Miss/Mrs police officer, show me that law in the books where that's Ok.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:13 PM
Dec 9

You might find it under assault, because that's what non-policeman Penny did. No one was touched...but the guy he caused the death of. No way was it his duty to protect others, not being a cop.

I understand the jury is now considering a lesser charge.

IMO they'll come down with some form of punishment.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
45. Here ya go, Art 35 NY Penal Law.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:25 PM
Dec 9
https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.php
S 35.10 Justification; use of physical force generally.
6. A person may, pursuant to the ensuing provisions of this article,
use physical force upon another person in self-defense or defense of a
third person, or in defense of premises, or in order to prevent larceny
of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or
prevent an escape from custody.

One of several paragraphs that would possibly cover this situation. Perhaps a perusal of your own state's criminal laws would be enlightening for you.

No one said "duty" until you just did. And, if your post is correct, they are still trying to throw "the book" at him.

brush

(58,022 posts)
47. Nope,no one was touched. Guy was unarmed.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:30 PM
Dec 9

Penny committed assault on an unarmed person. Soon as Neely touched someone, then ok. Macho, ex-Marine had no call to touch him until he assaulted someone.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
51. Here's the paragraph again, since it appears you didn't read it.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:35 PM
Dec 9
6. A person may, pursuant to the ensuing provisions of this article,
use physical force upon another person in self-defense or defense of a
third person, or in defense of premises, or in order to prevent larceny
of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or
prevent an escape from custody

Show me in this paragraph where "touch" is a prerequisite. I'll wait.

brush

(58,022 posts)
57. A-h-h-h-h-h sorry. Neely was not trying to commit larceny.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:43 PM
Dec 9

..."in order to prevent larceny
of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or
prevent an escape from custody."

Wrong again.

He'll be convicted of some lesser charge. The jury is convening now.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
59. Is reading the bottom half of a paragraph the way you make opinions?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:45 PM
Dec 9

There's a whole top half of that paragraph that knocks your argument out of the water, but I guess that's too much to comment on...

brush

(58,022 posts)
63. Be clear, what knocks my argument out of the water?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:54 PM
Dec 9

Never mind really as it's water under the bridge now. The jury I understand has found him not guilty of anything.

Apparently you can choke a person to within an inch of death, death really, and go free if you have white, male privilege.

Only in America. He got away with killing the guy.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
65. Or if the person you are detaining is threatening bodily harm to other individuals, that may not be
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:01 PM
Dec 9

able to quickly or readily escape.

Be clear, what knocks my argument out of the water?

The top half of the paragraph, which you have failed to address several times now. Here is the top part trimmed, might make it easier for you:
6. A person may, pursuant to the ensuing provisions of this article,
use physical force upon another person in self-defense or defense of a
third person


Trimmed, highlighted, for your reading enjoyment...

brush

(58,022 posts)
67. The case is over. Penny got away with killing him.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:06 PM
Dec 9

But Neely was just crying out he was hungry, not threatening to assault someone.

White, male privilege, and it smacks of racism to me.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
68. Yes, I'm aware you see racism everywhere.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:10 PM
Dec 9
But Neely was just crying out he was hungry, not threatening to assault someone.

Not according to the multiple witnesses that were actually present. Were you there? Have some unknown insight to the motive? Maybe you should have let the prosecutor know of your witness testimony, to make a better case...

brush

(58,022 posts)
71. Ok. Yelling you're hungry is threatening bodily harm now?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:15 PM
Dec 9

The macho guy got carried away and choke a guy to death. That's really the bottom line.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
72. You must have missed the part about witnesses claiming that he was THREATENING them.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:19 PM
Dec 9

I kind of alluded to that in my previous posts. Again, your eyewitness testimony might have done wonders for the prosecution...

brush

(58,022 posts)
73. I'd like to know what was said besides yelling he was hungry? Do you that?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:23 PM
Dec 9

But it's really beside the point, Penny got away with murder. A man is dead from his actions and he walks away.

Smacks of racism.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
74. Here's some: (watch video)
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:27 PM
Dec 9
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-witness-testimony-day-4/

She demonstrated for the jury how she saw Neely lunging at people. The witness said when Penny took Neely to the ground, "I felt very relieved because I was scared for my son."

brush

(58,022 posts)
75. It's like the prosecutor said, his intentions were good but he went too far.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:12 PM
Dec 9

Too far.

It's as simple as that. The only diffence between Penny, Kyle Rittenhouse and George Zimmerman is that he's viewed as a sympathetic figure, not menacing like the other two.

He chokd a man half to death, who died because of his actions, an got off.

Argue all you want, IMO he's no diff than Zimmerman and Rittenhouse except some see him as a sympathetic figure...mostly white I'd say.

He cause the death of another human, good intentions or not.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
76. So, do you agree now that my statements were correct?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:17 PM
Dec 9

You're switching to the statements of the prosecutor, the person that is trying to get him locked up, so it seems you're switching tack. Not sure she has his best defense rights in mind.

And, I guess he's a sympathetic character, because it seems his intent was to protect the innocent.

brush

(58,022 posts)
77. I'm not switching anything. I've been very clear that there should be some form or...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:25 PM
Dec 9

punishment for Penny.

Response to brush (Reply #42)

BeerBarrelPolka

(1,439 posts)
43. Yes
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:14 PM
Dec 9

Brush (who I enjoy reading) is way off on what they're writing. Totally.

I've been a bodyguard, boxer, wrestler, martial artist, taught self defense to all sorts of agencies and civilians, trained amateur and professional fighters. I have trained World Champions. In all honesty, no one on this site has my knowledge on this subject. You are correct in stating he did not have a "choke hold" on for 6 minutes. He had him in a restraint and at times was strangling him. A proper strangle (universally miscalled a choke hold) will render someone unconscious in seconds and death usually in 60-120 seconds.

Again for Brush, no one needs to touch you for you to defend yourself, up to and including deadly force. If the threats make you or someone else fear for your life, you can enact appropriate counter measures.

And for the record, the owners of this site have my name since I'm a star member. They can google who I am and see exactly what I do and my accomplishments.

brush

(58,022 posts)
52. I disagree. NYers know to not engage with crazy passengers on the subway.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:37 PM
Dec 9

Not make eye contact, move to the other end of the car, or move to the next car thru the rear door. Ex-Marine Penny, not a NYer, committed assault in an unarmed man who had not touched anyone.

The jury is convening and IMO they'll convict him of a lesser charge.

What he did resulted in a man dying. If not for what he did, Neely would not have died.

brush

(58,022 posts)
60. That's foul. Open season on unarmed and disoriented and apparenty insane people.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:49 PM
Dec 9

IMO he should not have gotten off Scott free. White male privilege. Smacks of racism to me too.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
53. Well, after posting a paragraph from the law, and posting it again,
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:37 PM
Dec 9

they just don't seem to get it. TY for your post.

Quiet Em

(1,184 posts)
44. Why do you think the faint pulse detected has any relevance?
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:15 PM
Dec 9

Neely died.

The chokehold caused the death. If you are attempting to blame drugs, like some did for George Floyd's death, you are wrong. In both cases these men died from asphyxiation.

This is not a happy ending. A man died.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
46. Because, if the true intent had been to kill Neely, Penny was doing a horrible job.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:29 PM
Dec 9

Being in a hold like that causes stress on the body, and adding illegal drugs to the mix makes it even worse. A neck restraint hold on a healthy person for several minutes may just end with a certain level of discomfort, but chronic drug use/current high will just make things a lot worse.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
54. Technically, he was alive when Penny walked away.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:38 PM
Dec 9

He died while under the care of the 1st responders. I guess we should charge them, too. They COULD be racists...

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
62. Fact: 1st responders detected a faint pulse upon arrival, administered
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:54 PM
Dec 9

Norcan and CPR. Pronounced dead at hospital. Between 1st responders' arrival, and arrival at hospital, he died. Penny was not detained at that time.

Quiet Em

(1,184 posts)
64. I was questioning you calling the paramedics racist.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:00 PM
Dec 9

Race absolutely played a role in his death, and is obviously happening in the reaction to this verdict. But the paramedics have not been accused of racism that I'm aware of.

He would not have died if his oxygen was not cut off for over five minutes. The medical examiner was quite clear on that.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
66. If "race absolutely played a role in his death", and he died in the care of the
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 04:06 PM
Dec 9

1st responders, well, I guess you may see where I'm coming from, as he was "still alive" on their arrival. (I'm being facetious, by the way, I don't believe they were racist. Nor do I believe Penny was, either.)

He would not have died if his oxygen was not cut off for over five minutes.

He would have died if his oxygen had been cut off for TWO minutes. Penny was doing a poor job of killing him, as I have stated several times, if that was his TRUE intent. 5 minutes of TRUE oxygen deprivation, in Neely's condition, would have resulted in NO pulse upon arrival.

electric_blue68

(18,685 posts)
123. As a NCY'r who Has been in a Subway Car with some loud people w mental illness feeling very uncomfortable...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:43 PM
Dec 10

...and while allegedly throwing garbage at people (ick!!!) still not touching anyone, esp Penny - Penny should have been sentenced to some time. Bad verdict!

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
141. Read post #45. NY law.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 10:53 AM
Dec 11

"Touching" isn't listed as a requirement. Ask the witnesses how THEY feel about Penny's actions. (You don't have to. It's in their testimony. They approved. Even the POC.)

ForgedCrank

(2,381 posts)
58. They already
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:44 PM
Dec 9

have gotten everything they deserve. Found not guilty by a jury if his peers and released.

Sundance1220

(177 posts)
15. I knew, from the beginning,
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 01:53 PM
Dec 9

12 NYers would not convict him. And frankly, unless you've been stuck underground in a metal tube with an insane person who is threatening people and throwing stuff at people, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I feel for the man who died who should have been getting professional help but unless you've been on a subway in this kind of situation, you really shouldn't be commenting on what should and shouldn't be done when passengers already testified they felt threatened (which is why he wasn't convicted).

comradebillyboy

(10,531 posts)
19. 100% agree.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:09 PM
Dec 9

From everything I have read about this case I would have voted to acquit if I were on the jury. Being non white or mentally ill is not a license to threaten and terrorize other passengers on the subway.

electric_blue68

(18,685 posts)
125. I HAVE been in that Situation; several times. Very Uncomfortable!!! B&b NYC'r...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:17 PM
Dec 10

riding the subway steadily for about 57 yrs.

Icky that Neely was throwing garbage. Yes, scary if he was lunging at passengers!

Still, a 6 min chokehold? Wrong. Penny should have received some kind of punishment.

DBoon

(23,170 posts)
30. open season on the homeless
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 02:40 PM
Dec 9

It's OK to strangle a homeless person if someone thinks they are a threat.

In fact you will become a hero for killing a mentally disturbed homeless person.

brush

(58,022 posts)
39. Thank you. Why are so few on this thread who don't seem to get that...
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:00 PM
Dec 9

it's not OK to choke hold someone to an inch of their death, in fact he did die.

I'm losing faith in people, and of all places here on DU. Isn't this supposed to be a progressive, enlightened site?

It's smacking of racism to me, that big elephant in the room, because we all know it the choker was Black and the dead man White, most would be rooting for the book being thrown at the Black guy.

That's America for you, and apparently DU too. What have we become?

Keepthesoulalive

(808 posts)
136. What we have always been
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 03:12 AM
Dec 11

Fear and color makes for a deadly combination. They elected Koch and Giuliani because they wanted law and order. They had no intention of fixing the cause of New Yorks problems they just papered over them and made the tourist areas safe. For people of color it was intimidation and watch your step. There is nothing for people with mental health issues and affordable housing barely exists. Fear sells and some people believe safety justifies anything, just ask trump voters.

brush

(58,022 posts)
137. Yeah, it goes way back in NY. "Giuliani Time", trump and the Central Park Five.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 03:39 AM
Dec 11

Many on this thread have no idea.

DBoon

(23,170 posts)
48. yes, then it becomes a lynch mob
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:30 PM
Dec 9

and if the mobs succeeds in killing the threatening person, they will all become heros

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
50. I think your definition of that term, and mine, are quite different.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:32 PM
Dec 9

Especially in that scenario.

mountain grammy

(27,378 posts)
87. I'm very afraid that's true.
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 10:39 PM
Dec 9

a man was sentenced to life in prison yesterday for open firing at panhandlers in Lakewood CO last year. killing one of them.

Response to 4th (Original post)

JohnSJ

(96,810 posts)
79. I won't weigh in on this, but I find it ironic how some had no problem rationalizing the killing of the UHC executive a
Mon Dec 9, 2024, 06:35 PM
Dec 9

few days ago.



Elessar Zappa

(16,077 posts)
163. I didn't see a lot of people rationalizing the CEO's death.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 02:44 PM
Dec 11

What I did see is that the murderer should be held accountable while at the same time not giving one single fuck that the sociopathic greedy asshole is now taking a dirt nap. That’s the position that I hold.

PeaceWave

(1,046 posts)
91. The court of public opinion doesn't matter. He was acquitted by a jury...
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:58 AM
Dec 10

And a Manhattan jury at that. We can't be hypocrites and praise the work of a Manhattan jury that found Donald Trump guilty on 34 counts but then claim conspiracy or racism regarding another Manhattan jury that acquitted Daniel Penny of murder/manslaughter. Case closed.

Ilikepurple

(148 posts)
122. The word hypocrite sure has become popular around here.
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 10:35 PM
Dec 10

We can’t accept the theories of special and general relativity by Einstein but then claim Alex Jones’s theories are suspect. They were both created by humans. Case closed. I’m guessing those last two words are some sort of magic performative utterance to end discussion.

Kilgore

(1,760 posts)
106. Perspective from CNN
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 11:28 AM
Dec 10
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/06/us/jordan-neely-subway-death-saturday/index.html

"Prior to his killing, Neely had a lengthy arrest record with New York police, a law enforcement source told CNN’s John Miller, including 42 arrests on charges including petty larceny, jumping subway turnstiles, theft, and three unprovoked assaults on women in the subway between 2019 and 2021."

The above is not a justification for what happened. But there seems to be a view that he was an average guy which isn't correct either.

Quiet Em

(1,184 posts)
108. Jordan Neely suffered with mental illness and went into deep despair when his mother
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:03 PM
Dec 10

was choked to death by her boyfriend while Jordan was sleeping in his bedroom.

Kilgore

(1,760 posts)
112. Misdirected anger
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 12:42 PM
Dec 10

The anger needs to be directed at local/state government for not passing laws and providing a way to get Neely off the streets and into a mental facility.

If that had happened, then none or this would have occurred. It's not like there wasn't precedent based on his history.

Quiet Em

(1,184 posts)
119. Misdirected anger from who?
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 05:39 PM
Dec 10

It's very difficult to get someone mental health help if they are reluctant. There used to be a man who used to come to the kid's bus stop and yell and complain when he was off his medicine but we parents never felt the need to choke him to death.

Kilgore

(1,760 posts)
120. Exactly my point
Tue Dec 10, 2024, 08:42 PM
Dec 10

You shouldn't have to. Ideally there would be some sort of mechanism in place to get that person help and off the streets. It's above my pay grade, maybe a squad of guys in white coats with butterfly nets, really have no idea how. Just know what we now have is F-up and has to change.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
144. Would your opinion be different if he was actually committing assault against a mother and her child?
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:20 AM
Dec 11

And the only way to stop him was to restrain him like that? Or do you just let him "go about his business" until someone else is severely hurt, or dies. Neely had been arrested numerous times, some for assault with injury. HE received no punishment for his crimes. Who's fault is that? Perhaps, if he had been locked up, he could have received some treatment for his addictions. He would have at least had the opportunity to "dry out".

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
151. I'm asking if your opinion still stands, with different scenarios in play.
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 01:23 PM
Dec 11

Sorry if you didn't comprehend that.

Cirsium

(1,154 posts)
165. It is not clear
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 03:45 PM
Dec 11

It is not clear what you are trying to say, sorry. I'll do my best.

You are talking about a couple of things in your post. It is not clear what the connection or relevance might be of those things. One is a hypothetical where someone was being assaulted. Of course in that case intervention by a third party is warranted. But even then murder, if it can be avoided, is not justified.

Then you go on to say "Neely had been arrested numerous times, some for assault with injury." That may be, but is irrelevant. It does not justify killing him.

Next we get "HE received no punishment for his crimes. Who's fault is that?" So what then, should we kill the prosecutor or whomever put him back on the street? You know, to protect people from violent fenders. I mean what the hell is your point? The law didn't work so it's time for extrajudicial killings?

Lastly, we get this: "Perhaps, if he had been locked up, he could have received some treatment for his addictions. He would have at least had the opportunity to 'dry out.'"

So lieu of that, kill him?

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
170. Yes, I am giving out different scenarios.
Thu Dec 12, 2024, 10:26 AM
Dec 12
One is a hypothetical where someone was being assaulted.

According to witnesses, Neely was yelling, threatening, and began to make aggressive moves toward a mother and child, when Penny decided to intervene. Yes, my question was hypothetical, but was VERY POSSIBLY about to become a reality. If Penny had not intervened, it may HAVE become a reality. You said that your opinion would differ, if this was the case, so I'm glad you see it that way, because it may have actually happened, without intervention. (Penny was not the only one restraining Neely, btw. At least 2 others involved.) Penny was not trying to "murder" Neely. If he was, he was doing a bad job of it. A proper choke hold only takes a couple of minutes, not 6, with the individual still basically alive, afterwards.

Then you go on to say "Neely had been arrested numerous times, some for assault with injury." That may be, but is irrelevant. It does not justify killing him.

Next we get "HE received no punishment for his crimes. Who's fault is that?" So what then, should we kill the prosecutor or whomever put him back on the street? You know, to protect people from violent fenders. I mean what the hell is your point? The law didn't work so it's time for extrajudicial killings?

These two paragraphs are related, as in if Neely had been arrested, and jailed, like a lot of people want Penny to be,
a: He wouldn't have been present on the subway, and wouldn't have been terrorizing innocent people.
b: He would have been locked up, hopefully in the line for drug treatment, which would most likely have bettered his life.
The system failed Neely, and he was allowed to continue his use of drugs, and his acts of terror. Someone viewed his acts, knew that he was a possible danger to others, and when Neely started making aggressive moves towards a mother and child, decided to intervene and restrain him. Neely allegedly fought the whole time he was restrained, until he was basically passed out, whereupon Penny released him, and placed him in the recovery position.

I believe the drug use, the actual drug in his system at that time, and his life on the streets made LARGE contributing factors to his demise. The act of being restrained, and the amount of force needed to keep him restrained, was just the last straw. Neely WAS technically alive, upon his release from being restrained. He passed on the way to the hospital. His physiology was just on overload, and just stopped. As I heard, the ME, at the first examination, couldn't directly determine a cause of death. A pure, strangulation hold will leave it's marks.

Hope this straightens things out.

Cirsium

(1,154 posts)
166. Ahhhhhhhhhhh
Wed Dec 11, 2024, 04:05 PM
Dec 11

I hadn't followed this case. I didn't follow the OJ case either, back in the day, and like with this case I initially could not understand why there was such an uproar and so much interest about the case. I didn't know then that his wife was white. I witnessed white crowds gathered around TV sets in bars, restaurants and coffee houses cheering and booing at every little twist and turn in the trial. It was grotesque.

I just discovered that the victim in this case, Jordan Neely, was Black. Who here is naive enough to believe that racism does not play a powerful role in the discussions about this, as it does in just about every discussion in the US about crime, politics and justice? Not I.

Today, still, in the year 2024, it goes on, the same ugly mob mentality. It is shameful.

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice.

Martin Luther King Jr.


Now, it could well be that the choke hold was a last resort and was the only way to protect the other passengers from harm. I wasn't there and I was not on the jury. I am not addressing that. I am addressing the ghoulish commentary by people right here, and elsewhere around the country. I find it despicable.

yagotme

(3,951 posts)
172. Are you aware that at least one of the people that helped restrain Neely was a POC?
Thu Dec 12, 2024, 10:42 AM
Dec 12

And that Neely himself was threatening POC? Does that make a difference through the "racist" prism? Neely had a dangerous drug in his system, was acting out, and began threatening people locked in a metal tube, underground. Some of those threatened were POC. Penny went to restrain Neely when he began making aggressive moves toward a woman with a young child. At least 2 other people assisted in the restrain, at least one being a POC. The passengers, after the fact, were thanking Penny for his actions. Even the POC. Show me the racism.

I wasn't there and I was not on the jury.


I hadn't followed this case.


Who here is naive enough to believe that racism does not play a powerful role in the discussions about this,


Do you see anything wrong with these 3 statements, combined together?
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