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Daniel Penny beams, crowd breaks out in applause as Marine vet is acquitted in subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely
Daniel Penny beams, crowd breaks out in applause as Marine vet is acquitted in subway chokehold death of Jordan Neelyhttps://nypost.com/2024/12/09/us-news/daniel-penny-cleared-of-all-charges-in-jordan-neelys-death/
The courtroom erupted in applause as the panelists acquitted Penny of criminally negligent homicide — which could have put him behind bars for up to four years — in Neely’s chokehold death aboard a crowded uptown F train in May 2023.
“We the jury have come to a unanimous decision on county two,” the foreperson on the jury told the courtroom.
Penny immediately broke out a huge smile and turned to hug defense attorney Thomas Kenniff — even as Neely’s father, Andre Zachary, was escorted from the courtroom.
“Racist f—ing country,” one Black Lives Matter supporter yelled as she left the room. Another Neely supporter, turning to Penney, screamed, “It’s a small world, buddy,” before leaving the room.
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niyad
(123,688 posts)
yagotme
(4,104 posts)
Phoenix61
(18,348 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)niyad
(123,688 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)I was not specific in my reply. Therefore, vague. The other poster requested specifics on my vague post, and I gave him my answer.
niyad
(123,688 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)Some entertainment is needed after the bleak past month.
brush
(59,851 posts)This is white, male privilege. That's the huge elephant in the room everyone is ignoring.
Penny caused the death of an unarmed person who had touched no one. He should not get away with no punishment at all.
Lesser charges, ok, but no punishment as some are advocating. NOT OK.
What are we,in the jungle now and you can just kill some one?
We all know if the races of the two men was reversed, they'd throw the book at the Black guy.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)appeared to be a POC. Were they charged??? No. Neely was still technically alive when the 1st responders took over, and if Penny had him in a true "choke hold", and was actually trying to kill him, he was doing a pretty lousy job of it. Neely was threatening other passengers, and had allegedly thrown trash at them (Not touching anyone?), and passengers testified that they were fearful of Neely.
As far as the book, Penny faced 2 separate charges for 1 incident, and a jury of his peers basically threw them out. That's how our system is supposed to work. What SHOULD have happened to Penny, other than what did?
brush
(59,851 posts)Do I have to repeat that again? He caused Neely's death with a six minute choke hole.
There should be some punishment for that. I don't care who assisted him or anything else. We're not in the jungle. A person who caused another person's death should not go unpunished.
That should be plain as day to everyone.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)I believe in a person's right to self defense. Apparently, you do not. Not without punishing the defender. But, what if it's a traffic accident? An unavoidable one? Should the driver of a vehicle be imprisoned for something they did not have any control over? Absolutes are, well, absolute.
brush
(59,851 posts)until the person is nearly dead, and in fact did die...have you lost your humanity entirely?
I'll put it bluntly again, if the races of the choker and the dead guy were reversed, the Black guy would've had the book thrown at him.
Penny should be charged and convicted for causing the death of another human being..l.whatever lesser charge that is.
It smacks of racism strongly if he is not.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)You didn't address my questions about this sooo...
Self defense, and the defense of others. You must have missed the part about other passengers being fearful of Neely. And being unarmed, and being detained without arms, would be an equivalent force.
We don't know that for sure, guesses don't count, and I'll put it bluntly again, Penny was charged two offences for one incident. The prosecutor was TRYING to convict him, on anything.
Sounds like you have already viewed all the evidence, conducted the trial, found him guilty, and are waiting to sentence him. What sentence do you wish to impose on him?
So, if a case doesn't go the way YOU feel it should go, it's racism. OK.
brush
(59,851 posts)First of all, never make eye contact with them so they don't zero in on you. Second, move to the far end of the subway car because they usually smell. All NYers who ride the subway know that unwashed smell as soon as they get in subway car, and you also notice that everyone else has moved to the opposite end of the car.
You mind your own business, even move to the next car through the rear door if you want to.
One does not engage with them, especially touching someone who has not touched you. Apparently ex-Marine Penny, obviously not a NYer, did not know the rules. And apparently many others on this thread don't either.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)"Don't START nothin, won't BE nothin'"
Perhaps your subway rules need revision, if it's OK to verbally and (on occasion) physically assault individuals you are locked in a metal tube with. Just my 2 cents.
brush
(59,851 posts)Obviously not a NYer right?
yagotme
(4,104 posts)That doesn't mean I have to throw common decency and civility out the window if I happen to visit. Perhaps a list of these rules needs to be posted on the NY visitor's website. I'm sure that will certainly help tourism.
And, if that doesn't work, and you're followed???
brush
(59,851 posts)Ya don't have to be from NY to know that.
MichMan
(15,106 posts)See an elderly person being robbed and brutalized or a woman sexually assaulted ? Too bad for them.
No reason to get involved right?
BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)I cannot comment further for risk of being barred.
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)"People were afraid" is no justification for the murder of an unarmed man who had touched no one.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)I posted a paragraph from NY law, several times. "Touching" isn't a prerequisite.
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)I am not talking about NY law.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)you'd BETTER be talking about NY law.
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)I don't want to "arrest, charge, prosecute, and mete out punishment to someone in NY." I want to engage people's humanity right here in this discussion.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)NY law is CERTAINLY relevant.
brush
(59,851 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)Show me, SPECIFICALLY, where racism was involved. Show me how Penny restraining Neely with a neck hold is racist, and in the same breath, protecting POC is racist, also.
brush
(59,851 posts)yet was found innocent of all charges. There's a dead body but he walks free while getting applauded. No charges at all.
Racism pure and simple. You know nothing about NY. We POCs who live/lived there know, as cited in the many examples in the posts I told you to look at. This case is just another example. There should've been some charges.
Why do so many whites defend obvious racism?
yagotme
(4,104 posts)How many witnesses were POC? How many jurors were POC? Are POC racism supporters? Is the POC that assisted in holding Neely down a racist, also?
brush
(59,851 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)Just because one is white, the other a POC, doesn't mean racism is involved. I need more proof than just that.
brush
(59,851 posts)Live with who you are. It's you. Be happy.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Just your opinion that it is.
Same for you.
brush
(59,851 posts)but I don't expect anything different from you.
One more question. Did you vote for trump?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/132136828
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Along with the POC guy that helped restrain Neely. I've covered this already, but, as to some of our earlier back and forths, I seem to need to keep pointing out the same facts than you seem to want to ignore.
brush
(59,851 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)You seem to ignore my direct questions, and view anything I say with incredulity, so I am of the belief that no matter what I say, you're going to believe what you believe. As far as the video goes, the interviewer got a few facts wrong, so I'm not sure of her overall effectiveness, and having a family member opine about Penny's treatment, when he wasn't actually present, isn't high on the case winning scale. Tell me, if Neely had received the time in prison that he SHOULD have (like you believe Penny should), would he be alive today?
brush
(59,851 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)brush
(59,851 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)You already "knew" how I voted, so what was the point of answering?
And, AGAIN, show me the "obvious racism". I have asked more than once, and have yet to receive an answer...
Keepthesoulalive
(1,294 posts)Which has never been a beacon of justice for black or Hispanic people. Think of the past mayors and the draconian policies they enacted. Please don’t get me started on NYPD.
brush
(59,851 posts)assaulting and raping Abner Louiema with a broomstick, Patrick Dorisman getting beat up and Amadiu Diallo getting shot up 40 some times in his doorway and killed reach for his key. Some of these naive people on this thread have no idea how racist some are in NY.
Imagine, applauding the guy who caused another man's death and getting off Scott free.
Keepthesoulalive
(1,294 posts)The central park 5. Gentrification , the village and Harlem could be any street in any city . They have no soul.
brush
(59,851 posts)
DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)The man was threatening everyone. I feel bad because mentally ill people do not get the care they desperately need. I reject the premise that threatening someone does not allow reprisals.
brush
(59,851 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 9, 2024, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)
If Penny had been touched/attacked, ok, then he should protect himself. Is everyone forgetting what assault is? You can't just choke hold someone within and inch of life without being charged.
That's what Penny did.
See post 23.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,671 posts)And he was found not guilty.
brush
(59,851 posts)who yell that they are hungry? One can have good intentions but go too far and accidentally kill a person but you get off Scott free. Nothing, not even a couple of months in jail, or at least probation?
Something is wrong with that.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,671 posts)He was doing much more than just yelling that he was hungry. He was threatening people verbally, and acting in a very aggressive manner, and a number of people on the train felt threatened by him.
brush
(59,851 posts)the guy who didn't have enough sense to not choke someone for six minutes goes Scott free.
BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)Why didn't the "dead guys family" have enough sense to get him the mental help he needed to keep him off the streets and prevent more harm than he already committed?
brush
(59,851 posts)The guy had people helping him hold the guy down. Just stop choking for God's sake.
BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)You're the one who brought up the dead guy's family, not me.
brush
(59,851 posts)BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)Maybe they are to blame? If they knew what a proven threat he was and did nothing about it, they are culpable. I have no idea his relationship with his family though, so it's speculation.
electric_blue68
(21,363 posts)Sometimes people with mental illness hate the side effects of some the meds, and stop taking them. A family can't monitor everything.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)And they are legal.
brush
(59,851 posts)six minutes is not good for a person's life. In fact if not for that choking the man could still be alive. He was unarmed, didn't attack anyone, kept yelling he was hungry...not a cause to be nearly choked to death. In fact, the man did die.
Wouldn't want to be that choker's wife or girlfriend as he might lose control again.
That seems to be a foreign concept to many here.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)You can’t go around threatening violence and throwing stuff at people. I had a guy road rage at me and rushed my vehicle. I was scared. If I had been armed, I probably would have shot him.
brush
(59,851 posts)DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)Waving your arms and slamming the hood- yeah. I am prepare to defend myself. I’m old and have a disability.
brush
(59,851 posts)DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)You should Google that term. You seem to espouse a belief that you have to be struck or actually in the middle of being assaulted before you have a right to defend yourself. That’s wrong. I suggest you take a CCW course. They explain it in great detail.
BLUF. If you approve aggressively, screaming, threatening, and throwing things making me fear for my life - I am allowed to defend with deadly force.
You may not like it - but that’s the law.
brush
(59,851 posts)Sounds like you prefer the other option.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)You should be thankful you can. Not all of us are so blessed. You seem to think what is right for you works for everyone. Healthy person privilege. Be thankful you aren’t disabled.
brush
(59,851 posts)DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)Admit it. You don’t acknowledge your own privilege
brush
(59,851 posts)DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)I DO! And you think you have a right to judge even though you don’t walk in my shoes.
We are on different wavelengths and there could have been people on that subway just like me.
Quit being so sanctimonious. You’re truth isn’t everyone’s.
brush
(59,851 posts)Nothing more.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)Suuuuure
brush
(59,851 posts)never did anything to you or corresponded with you before just asking if you could get away from a situation by driving away.
I don't get it.
electric_blue68
(21,363 posts)could not. That could make you feel vunerable.
But you're seemingly not clear about whether you were inside your car or not unless I misread your posts. Obviously a scary experience if someone's screaming and pounding on your car while you're inside.
And while not permanently disabled I have been in the processes of recovering from several sprained ankles w cane in hand gingerly making my way through the subway. Kind of nervous, not able to move fast, or turn fast at all.
DenaliDemocrat
(1,632 posts)I don’t HAVE a duty to retreat. It’s the law. Period!
brush
(59,851 posts)That's just dumb.
We should've all learned that from watching the cop who killed George Floyd by choking him with a knee on the neck.
Thanks for your patience on this. The posts on this thread justify the murder are horrifying.
brush
(59,851 posts)Cirsium
(2,481 posts)I am too disgusted to engage in the "debate."
brush
(59,851 posts)
FBaggins
(28,099 posts)There are no crimes that can someone to jail for life that are not threats to the other passengers. And, of course, we now know that he had assaulted multiple people in the subway in recent years.
It was not at all unreasonable to treat him as a threat (since he was). That doesn’t mean that it’s ok to cause his death - but it means it isn’t a crime.
brush
(59,851 posts)That's not rocket science for God's sake. There were others helping to restraint the guy. Just hold him down, don't keep choking.
FBaggins
(28,099 posts)But he isn’t a trained law-enforcement officer. Anyone is free to criticize his decisions - but not free to imagine that their criticism standard carries the same weight as the standards for which a violation is a criminal offense.
He should have done better - but he isn’t guilty of a crime for failing to do so.
brush
(59,851 posts)Something is wrong with him going Scott free.
No jail time, no house arrest, not probation even?
IMO that's not justice.
brush
(59,851 posts)yagotme
(4,104 posts)Gotcha.
brush
(59,851 posts)and is unarmed, of course there should be punishment.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)It's lawful to restrain someone if they are being aggressive towards others, whether they touched you or not. Only matters if the others are in fear of death or harm. It's not like Penny took a gun out and started blazing away. If he had been intent on killing Neely, he was doing a bad job of it, as I stated earlier. Could have killed him a lot quicker if that had been the true motive. And, for arguments sake, in case you missed it, Neely was still technically alive when Penny released him.
brush
(59,851 posts)You might find it under assault, because that's what non-policeman Penny did. No one was touched...but the guy he caused the death of. No way was it his duty to protect others, not being a cop.
I understand the jury is now considering a lesser charge.
IMO they'll come down with some form of punishment.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)S 35.10 Justification; use of physical force generally.
6. A person may, pursuant to the ensuing provisions of this article,
use physical force upon another person in self-defense or defense of a
third person, or in defense of premises, or in order to prevent larceny
of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or
prevent an escape from custody.
One of several paragraphs that would possibly cover this situation. Perhaps a perusal of your own state's criminal laws would be enlightening for you.
No one said "duty" until you just did. And, if your post is correct, they are still trying to throw "the book" at him.
brush
(59,851 posts)Penny committed assault on an unarmed person. Soon as Neely touched someone, then ok. Macho, ex-Marine had no call to touch him until he assaulted someone.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)use physical force upon another person in self-defense or defense of a
third person, or in defense of premises, or in order to prevent larceny
of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or
prevent an escape from custody
Show me in this paragraph where "touch" is a prerequisite. I'll wait.
brush
(59,851 posts)..."in order to prevent larceny
of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or
prevent an escape from custody."
Wrong again.
He'll be convicted of some lesser charge. The jury is convening now.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)There's a whole top half of that paragraph that knocks your argument out of the water, but I guess that's too much to comment on...
brush
(59,851 posts)Never mind really as it's water under the bridge now. The jury I understand has found him not guilty of anything.
Apparently you can choke a person to within an inch of death, death really, and go free if you have white, male privilege.
Only in America. He got away with killing the guy.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)able to quickly or readily escape.
The top half of the paragraph, which you have failed to address several times now. Here is the top part trimmed, might make it easier for you:
use physical force upon another person in self-defense or defense of a
third person
Trimmed, highlighted, for your reading enjoyment...
brush
(59,851 posts)But Neely was just crying out he was hungry, not threatening to assault someone.
White, male privilege, and it smacks of racism to me.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Not according to the multiple witnesses that were actually present. Were you there? Have some unknown insight to the motive? Maybe you should have let the prosecutor know of your witness testimony, to make a better case...
brush
(59,851 posts)The macho guy got carried away and choke a guy to death. That's really the bottom line.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)I kind of alluded to that in my previous posts. Again, your eyewitness testimony might have done wonders for the prosecution...
brush
(59,851 posts)But it's really beside the point, Penny got away with murder. A man is dead from his actions and he walks away.
Smacks of racism.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)brush
(59,851 posts)Too far.
It's as simple as that. The only diffence between Penny, Kyle Rittenhouse and George Zimmerman is that he's viewed as a sympathetic figure, not menacing like the other two.
He chokd a man half to death, who died because of his actions, an got off.
Argue all you want, IMO he's no diff than Zimmerman and Rittenhouse except some see him as a sympathetic figure...mostly white I'd say.
He cause the death of another human, good intentions or not.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)You're switching to the statements of the prosecutor, the person that is trying to get him locked up, so it seems you're switching tack. Not sure she has his best defense rights in mind.
And, I guess he's a sympathetic character, because it seems his intent was to protect the innocent.
brush
(59,851 posts)punishment for Penny.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)That's really strange...
Response to brush (Reply #42)
MichMan This message was self-deleted by its author.
BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)Brush (who I enjoy reading) is way off on what they're writing. Totally.
I've been a bodyguard, boxer, wrestler, martial artist, taught self defense to all sorts of agencies and civilians, trained amateur and professional fighters. I have trained World Champions. In all honesty, no one on this site has my knowledge on this subject. You are correct in stating he did not have a "choke hold" on for 6 minutes. He had him in a restraint and at times was strangling him. A proper strangle (universally miscalled a choke hold) will render someone unconscious in seconds and death usually in 60-120 seconds.
Again for Brush, no one needs to touch you for you to defend yourself, up to and including deadly force. If the threats make you or someone else fear for your life, you can enact appropriate counter measures.
And for the record, the owners of this site have my name since I'm a star member. They can google who I am and see exactly what I do and my accomplishments.
brush
(59,851 posts)Not make eye contact, move to the other end of the car, or move to the next car thru the rear door. Ex-Marine Penny, not a NYer, committed assault in an unarmed man who had not touched anyone.
The jury is convening and IMO they'll convict him of a lesser charge.
What he did resulted in a man dying. If not for what he did, Neely would not have died.
MichMan
(15,106 posts)brush
(59,851 posts)IMO he should not have gotten off Scott free. White male privilege. Smacks of racism to me too.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)they just don't seem to get it. TY for your post.
Quiet Em
(1,899 posts)Neely died.
The chokehold caused the death. If you are attempting to blame drugs, like some did for George Floyd's death, you are wrong. In both cases these men died from asphyxiation.
This is not a happy ending. A man died.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Being in a hold like that causes stress on the body, and adding illegal drugs to the mix makes it even worse. A neck restraint hold on a healthy person for several minutes may just end with a certain level of discomfort, but chronic drug use/current high will just make things a lot worse.
Quiet Em
(1,899 posts)Jordan Neely is dead.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)He died while under the care of the 1st responders. I guess we should charge them, too. They COULD be racists...
Where the heck is that comment coming from?
Anyway, Neely died from asphyxiation.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Norcan and CPR. Pronounced dead at hospital. Between 1st responders' arrival, and arrival at hospital, he died. Penny was not detained at that time.
Quiet Em
(1,899 posts)Race absolutely played a role in his death, and is obviously happening in the reaction to this verdict. But the paramedics have not been accused of racism that I'm aware of.
He would not have died if his oxygen was not cut off for over five minutes. The medical examiner was quite clear on that.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)1st responders, well, I guess you may see where I'm coming from, as he was "still alive" on their arrival. (I'm being facetious, by the way, I don't believe they were racist. Nor do I believe Penny was, either.)
He would have died if his oxygen had been cut off for TWO minutes. Penny was doing a poor job of killing him, as I have stated several times, if that was his TRUE intent. 5 minutes of TRUE oxygen deprivation, in Neely's condition, would have resulted in NO pulse upon arrival.
Quiet Em
(1,899 posts)Jordan Neely is dead.
electric_blue68
(21,363 posts)...and while allegedly throwing garbage at people (ick!!!) still not touching anyone, esp Penny - Penny should have been sentenced to some time. Bad verdict!
yagotme
(4,104 posts)"Touching" isn't listed as a requirement. Ask the witnesses how THEY feel about Penny's actions. (You don't have to. It's in their testimony. They approved. Even the POC.)
ForgedCrank
(2,623 posts)have gotten everything they deserve. Found not guilty by a jury if his peers and released.
niyad
(123,688 posts)Sundance1220
(285 posts)12 NYers would not convict him. And frankly, unless you've been stuck underground in a metal tube with an insane person who is threatening people and throwing stuff at people, you really have no idea what you're talking about. I feel for the man who died who should have been getting professional help but unless you've been on a subway in this kind of situation, you really shouldn't be commenting on what should and shouldn't be done when passengers already testified they felt threatened (which is why he wasn't convicted).
comradebillyboy
(10,684 posts)From everything I have read about this case I would have voted to acquit if I were on the jury. Being non white or mentally ill is not a license to threaten and terrorize other passengers on the subway.
BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)BeerBarrelPolka
(1,597 posts)electric_blue68
(21,363 posts)riding the subway steadily for about 57 yrs.
Icky that Neely was throwing garbage. Yes, scary if he was lunging at passengers!
Still, a 6 min chokehold? Wrong. Penny should have received some kind of punishment.
Sundance1220
(285 posts)Battery wasn't "sexy" enough but he likely would have been convicted.
Elessar Zappa
(16,330 posts)tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)
sarisataka
(21,666 posts)
Emile
(34,523 posts)
Bonx
(2,335 posts)tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)
Bonx
(2,335 posts)tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)eom
DBoon
(23,698 posts)It's OK to strangle a homeless person if someone thinks they are a threat.
In fact you will become a hero for killing a mentally disturbed homeless person.
brush
(59,851 posts)it's not OK to choke hold someone to an inch of their death, in fact he did die.
I'm losing faith in people, and of all places here on DU. Isn't this supposed to be a progressive, enlightened site?
It's smacking of racism to me, that big elephant in the room, because we all know it the choker was Black and the dead man White, most would be rooting for the book being thrown at the Black guy.
That's America for you, and apparently DU too. What have we become?
Keepthesoulalive
(1,294 posts)Fear and color makes for a deadly combination. They elected Koch and Giuliani because they wanted law and order. They had no intention of fixing the cause of New Yorks problems they just papered over them and made the tourist areas safe. For people of color it was intimidation and watch your step. There is nothing for people with mental health issues and affordable housing barely exists. Fear sells and some people believe safety justifies anything, just ask trump voters.
brush
(59,851 posts)Many on this thread have no idea.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Does that change the parameters?
DBoon
(23,698 posts)and if the mobs succeeds in killing the threatening person, they will all become heros
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Especially in that scenario.
mountain grammy
(27,798 posts)a man was sentenced to life in prison yesterday for open firing at panhandlers in Lakewood CO last year. killing one of them.
electric_blue68
(21,363 posts)Response to 4th (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
JohnSJ
(98,572 posts)few days ago.
PeaceWave
(1,421 posts)Raine
(30,789 posts)Elessar Zappa
(16,330 posts)What I did see is that the murderer should be held accountable while at the same time not giving one single fuck that the sociopathic greedy asshole is now taking a dirt nap. That’s the position that I hold.
Skittles
(164,139 posts)about as heroic as shooting someone in the back
PeaceWave
(1,421 posts)And a Manhattan jury at that. We can't be hypocrites and praise the work of a Manhattan jury that found Donald Trump guilty on 34 counts but then claim conspiracy or racism regarding another Manhattan jury that acquitted Daniel Penny of murder/manslaughter. Case closed.
Ilikepurple
(225 posts)We can’t accept the theories of special and general relativity by Einstein but then claim Alex Jones’s theories are suspect. They were both created by humans. Case closed. I’m guessing those last two words are some sort of magic performative utterance to end discussion.
Kilgore
(1,818 posts)"Prior to his killing, Neely had a lengthy arrest record with New York police, a law enforcement source told CNN’s John Miller, including 42 arrests on charges including petty larceny, jumping subway turnstiles, theft, and three unprovoked assaults on women in the subway between 2019 and 2021."
The above is not a justification for what happened. But there seems to be a view that he was an average guy which isn't correct either.
Quiet Em
(1,899 posts)was choked to death by her boyfriend while Jordan was sleeping in his bedroom.
Kilgore
(1,818 posts)The anger needs to be directed at local/state government for not passing laws and providing a way to get Neely off the streets and into a mental facility.
If that had happened, then none or this would have occurred. It's not like there wasn't precedent based on his history.
Quiet Em
(1,899 posts)It's very difficult to get someone mental health help if they are reluctant. There used to be a man who used to come to the kid's bus stop and yell and complain when he was off his medicine but we parents never felt the need to choke him to death.
Kilgore
(1,818 posts)You shouldn't have to. Ideally there would be some sort of mechanism in place to get that person help and off the streets. It's above my pay grade, maybe a squad of guys in white coats with butterfly nets, really have no idea how. Just know what we now have is F-up and has to change.
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)It doesn't matter what kind of guy he is.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)And the only way to stop him was to restrain him like that? Or do you just let him "go about his business" until someone else is severely hurt, or dies. Neely had been arrested numerous times, some for assault with injury. HE received no punishment for his crimes. Who's fault is that? Perhaps, if he had been locked up, he could have received some treatment for his addictions. He would have at least had the opportunity to "dry out".
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)Seriously.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)Sorry if you didn't comprehend that.
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)It is not clear what you are trying to say, sorry. I'll do my best.
You are talking about a couple of things in your post. It is not clear what the connection or relevance might be of those things. One is a hypothetical where someone was being assaulted. Of course in that case intervention by a third party is warranted. But even then murder, if it can be avoided, is not justified.
Then you go on to say "Neely had been arrested numerous times, some for assault with injury." That may be, but is irrelevant. It does not justify killing him.
Next we get "HE received no punishment for his crimes. Who's fault is that?" So what then, should we kill the prosecutor or whomever put him back on the street? You know, to protect people from violent fenders. I mean what the hell is your point? The law didn't work so it's time for extrajudicial killings?
Lastly, we get this: "Perhaps, if he had been locked up, he could have received some treatment for his addictions. He would have at least had the opportunity to 'dry out.'"
So lieu of that, kill him?
yagotme
(4,104 posts)According to witnesses, Neely was yelling, threatening, and began to make aggressive moves toward a mother and child, when Penny decided to intervene. Yes, my question was hypothetical, but was VERY POSSIBLY about to become a reality. If Penny had not intervened, it may HAVE become a reality. You said that your opinion would differ, if this was the case, so I'm glad you see it that way, because it may have actually happened, without intervention. (Penny was not the only one restraining Neely, btw. At least 2 others involved.) Penny was not trying to "murder" Neely. If he was, he was doing a bad job of it. A proper choke hold only takes a couple of minutes, not 6, with the individual still basically alive, afterwards.
Next we get "HE received no punishment for his crimes. Who's fault is that?" So what then, should we kill the prosecutor or whomever put him back on the street? You know, to protect people from violent fenders. I mean what the hell is your point? The law didn't work so it's time for extrajudicial killings?
These two paragraphs are related, as in if Neely had been arrested, and jailed, like a lot of people want Penny to be,
a: He wouldn't have been present on the subway, and wouldn't have been terrorizing innocent people.
b: He would have been locked up, hopefully in the line for drug treatment, which would most likely have bettered his life.
The system failed Neely, and he was allowed to continue his use of drugs, and his acts of terror. Someone viewed his acts, knew that he was a possible danger to others, and when Neely started making aggressive moves towards a mother and child, decided to intervene and restrain him. Neely allegedly fought the whole time he was restrained, until he was basically passed out, whereupon Penny released him, and placed him in the recovery position.
I believe the drug use, the actual drug in his system at that time, and his life on the streets made LARGE contributing factors to his demise. The act of being restrained, and the amount of force needed to keep him restrained, was just the last straw. Neely WAS technically alive, upon his release from being restrained. He passed on the way to the hospital. His physiology was just on overload, and just stopped. As I heard, the ME, at the first examination, couldn't directly determine a cause of death. A pure, strangulation hold will leave it's marks.
Hope this straightens things out.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)Were they really expecting something different?
Cirsium
(2,481 posts)I hadn't followed this case. I didn't follow the OJ case either, back in the day, and like with this case I initially could not understand why there was such an uproar and so much interest about the case. I didn't know then that his wife was white. I witnessed white crowds gathered around TV sets in bars, restaurants and coffee houses cheering and booing at every little twist and turn in the trial. It was grotesque.
I just discovered that the victim in this case, Jordan Neely, was Black. Who here is naive enough to believe that racism does not play a powerful role in the discussions about this, as it does in just about every discussion in the US about crime, politics and justice? Not I.
Today, still, in the year 2024, it goes on, the same ugly mob mentality. It is shameful.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Now, it could well be that the choke hold was a last resort and was the only way to protect the other passengers from harm. I wasn't there and I was not on the jury. I am not addressing that. I am addressing the ghoulish commentary by people right here, and elsewhere around the country. I find it despicable.
yagotme
(4,104 posts)And that Neely himself was threatening POC? Does that make a difference through the "racist" prism? Neely had a dangerous drug in his system, was acting out, and began threatening people locked in a metal tube, underground. Some of those threatened were POC. Penny went to restrain Neely when he began making aggressive moves toward a woman with a young child. At least 2 other people assisted in the restrain, at least one being a POC. The passengers, after the fact, were thanking Penny for his actions. Even the POC. Show me the racism.
Do you see anything wrong with these 3 statements, combined together?