General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCEO shooter Luigi Mangione laid out his motive on Good Reads
I don't think there's going to be a lot of "Why did he do it?" about this one. He left a review of the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski's book.
https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/55354261-luigi-mangione
It's easy to quickly and thoughtless write this off as the manifesto of a lunatic, in order to avoid facing some of the uncomfortable problems it identifies. But it's simply impossible to ignore how prescient many of his predictions about modern society turned out.
He was a violent individual - rightfully imprisoned - who maimed innocent people. While these actions tend to be characterized as those of a crazy luddite, however, they are more accurately seen as those of an extreme political revolutionary.
A take I found online that I think is interesting:
"Had the balls to recognize that peaceful protest has gotten us absolutely nowhere and at the end of the day, he's probably right. Oil barons haven't listened to any environmentalists, but they feared him.
When all other forms of communication fail, violence is necessary to survive. You may not like his methods, but to see things from his perspective, it's not terrorism, it's war and revolution. Fossil fuel companies actively suppress anything that stands in their way and within a generation or two, it will begin costing human lives by greater and greater magnitudes until the earth is just a flaming ball orbiting third from the sun. Peaceful protest is outright ignored, economic protest isn't possible in the current system, so how long until we recognize that violence against those who lead us to such destruction is justified as self-defense.
These companies don't care about you, or your kids, or your grandkids. They have zero qualms about burning down the planet for a buck, so why should we have any qualms about burning them down to survive?
We're animals just like everything else on this planet, except we've forgotten the law of the jungle and bend over for our overlords when any other animal would recognize the threat and fight to the death for their survival. "Violence never solved anything" is a statement uttered by cowards and predators."
Response to Sympthsical (Original post)
Post removed
Prairie Gates
(3,568 posts)Rape is rape.
onecaliberal
(36,318 posts)Ask any woman how fucking funny that is.
Karasu
(368 posts)rampartd
(868 posts)it needs to be considered as "cruel and unusual punishment."
wishing such on anyone is a bad attitude.
the system needs to be reformed, not enabled.
dalton99a
(84,881 posts)Demobrat
(9,947 posts)NJCher
(38,223 posts)Now me, I'm already thinking about the size of his GoFundMe legal defense.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)you didn't agree with Timothy McVeigh.
Or is that different I suppose?
Aristus
(68,617 posts)This guy killed a mass murderer. No collateral damage.
the arbitrator of guilt and innocence now? Was he found guilty in the court of your mind?
We have a justice system in place to protect our society from people who actually think that way.
Aristus
(68,617 posts)And then put to death. To which I was opposed. Life in prison would have been my choice, not the least of which reasons is I lost a cousin in the OKC bombing.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)this around, that isn't the argument.
The argument is, he thought people did him wrong, so he killed people as a response, innocent people.
But now on DU, we have people condoning such actions because they happen to share a common frustration with the murderer. There is even promotion of starting a campaign to fund his defense. This is sick, just as sick as the murderer.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,739 posts)Maybe I watch too much Dateline. Murders happen all the time for all sorts of reasons.
I happen to be covered by United Healthcare, Medicare Advantage. So far so good. But I'd better study the numbers and look to change going forward. At 77, things are bound to go sideways soon. This assassination brought clear eyed assessment to their policies.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)For example, this health insurance CEO? There are few people on this earth that I despise more than insurance people, especially the people like him. I can't even put it into words how much I would rather spit in his eye than to even look at him.
But I have no argument if I condone his murder. That is easily just as evil as the asshole who got killed. It is equally bad to claim that this act of murder was somehow justified because it is not.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,739 posts)I generally oppose the death penalty because of so many wrongful convictions. This case, being one drop in the bucket, is just intriguing. I think there's a similar attraction to those criminals attracted to trump because of his misdeeds, not in spite of them.
Our society has been built on fabricating our history. It has never been more obvious since the "anti-woke" "anti-DEI", "anti-black history" activists gained so much power.
I think we need to connect the dots in relation to outrageous inequality, greed by health insurance companies, and the anti-New Deal "radicals" who drive policy. FDR truly saved Capitalism. And their mindset refuses to be grateful for fear of being unable to use and abuse the system Capitalism drives. The New Deal truly did great and lasting work. Those who rejected it because of their love of unfettered Capitalism, are the anti-heros of a healthy society. I also think the upcoming abuse of AI is going to be a way for them to avoid legal accountability.
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234998846/how-teaching-black-history-in-schools-became-a-national-controversy
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/economic-policy-unfettered-capitalism-does-not-exist-in-united-states/
TwilightZone
(28,834 posts)I'm not sure why anyone would believe that it's a valid source for anything.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,739 posts)Demobrat
(9,947 posts)and condoning an action. Some people seem to have a problem understanding the distinction.
so calling for a gofundme campaign to raise cash for his defense is nothing more than "understanding the motive"? How about "I don't feel bad that he is dead"? I that nothing more than "understanding the motive" as well?
I'm not dumb. I see what is going on, and I understand very clearly what is being said. Doesn't matter how many veils are hung in front of it, it's the same thing and I can still see it.
Demobrat
(9,947 posts)H2O Man
(75,778 posts)BComplex
(9,154 posts)case. And it's, once again, going to show itself to be as easily corrupted as it was under Bill Barr.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)That is simply false.
If you are extracting your statistics from what is read in headlines alone, I can understand how you arrived at such a flawed conclusion. But that is simply not the case at all. And yes, the rich do often have an advantage in high profile complex cases due to the level of legal support they can afford. Hell, it worked for OJ. But those are the headline cases, and they do not reflect reality when viewing the system overall.
But none of that has anything at all to do with the actual topic. There is a murderer out there. Could be the guy they arrested, but it doesn't matter. There are people here who believe he (whoever he is) was justified in committing premeditated murder. I find that to be downright evil, just as evil as the murderer himself.
Aristus
(68,617 posts)when a convicted felon and an adjudicated rapist is allowed to run for President. He wasnt sentenced and imprisoned as he should have been after the verdict, and here we are.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)you back to post #29
H2O Man
(75,778 posts)GreenWave
(9,442 posts)I watched the entire trial on Court TV.
Blood splatter expert.
Neighbor who was typing everything that happened around her does not hear anything at the time the murder took place but does over an hour later.
If we can't convict we plant. Mark Furman trying to impress a lady. Ito did not allow this in court as t would destroy the entire US legal system as Greta explained before she sold out, but he did allow the defense to "hammer away". Sidebars the local 10 second sound bites forgot.
LeftInTX
(30,594 posts)The Mangiones own several country clubs, including Haysfield Country Club in Hunt Valley, as well as healthcare facilities and real estate companies in the Baltimore area.
Luigi is the cousin of Maryland Republican Delegate Nino Mangione, who represents parts of Baltimore County.
According to our media partner at The Baltimore Banner, Luigi's late grandfather, Nicholas Mangione Sr., was a self-made real estate developer who owned country clubs, nursing homes and a radio station. His grandmother Mary, who died in 2023 from Parkinson's disease, was described in an obituary as a hospital benefactor and a music patron.
The Banner reports the Mangione family purchased Turf Valley Country Club in 1978, establishing it as a golf course resort and residential community. According to the Banner, family businesses also include the Lorien Health Services nursing homes and radio station WCBM-AM.
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/unitedhealthcare-luigi-mangione-family-maryland-brian-thompson/
Self Esteem
(1,776 posts)As much as people want to make it so - it just isn't. This isn't the Bolsheviks here lmao
NJCher
(38,223 posts)and then I read your post 26.
"Crank" is the operative word.
for calling me a name. That really bolsters your argument that we should fund murderers.
soandso
(1,631 posts)and also think you should lighten up and recognize that it's not that cut and dried for a lot of people. People are conflicted and it's not that weird. People who are denied claims, on insurance that they have paid for, have no recourse. It's impossible for the little guy to fight behemoths with thousands of lawyers. There is no justice for them. They're just straight up fucked and many when very ill. While everyone understands that killing is wrong, they are angry that these corporations are allowed to get away with ripping off people at their most vulnerable and Luigi Mangione stepped up to act when the system refuses to. People are at wits end with rampant corruption. Yes, this is the worse way to deal with the problem but no other way has materialized. Plus, the victim was an insider trader, on top of everything else - same as several in congress! This shit needs to be fixed because it's the kind of stuff that leads to wars and when those happen, people line up to support mass killing.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)really have to explain any of that to me. These are two completely different issues and in no way should be related in a rational mind.
I could write page after page of sh* i've had to deal with regarding insurance. I AM the little guy, they HAVE screwed me, over and over and over. I also don't have any recourse anymore than anyone else. You think I'm siding with these companies who are ripping us off or have some sort of compassion for them? Hell no. If I had my way, health insurance would be illegal. Insurance is one of the top reasons that medical expenses are as high as they are. None of these people care about lowering prices, they actually want them higher. As long as they end up with their cut, none of them care how much of the cost filters down to the consumer. It's a theft and conversion operation.
But see, that isn't even the subject. The subject is justified murder, and there is no such thing. It is absolutely cut and dried. Murder is wrong, period. What the guy did was not "stepping up". It was a low-down evil act and he stooped to do it. He is not a hero, he's the scum of civilization.
soandso
(1,631 posts)and I fully understand that murder is wrong (and I think it's a sin, which matters not to all but it does to me). I would not do what Luigi did and most people wouldn't but all I'm saying is how people view it. If you can be an observer, it's an interesting psycho-social phenomenon that's happening. I meant that about wars, too. Massive corruption can lead to wars but once people go to war, it's no longer murder in most people's minds, which is also absurd. This damn corruption needs to be stopped or we'll see more of this. Luigi is now a folk hero and Robin Hood to a lot of people.
NJCher
(38,223 posts)Must be so much easier.
ForgedCrank
(2,381 posts)that I don't live in a country where some people think they should be the self appointed arbitrators of right and wrong, deciding who is a valid target for premeditated murder in the streets. Like i said before, we have a justice system and a Constitution to protect us from people who think like that, thank God.
NJCher
(38,223 posts)Your first sentence is highly dubious because you don't know how people in your country think, nor could you ever possibly know how they all think. The very thought is ridiculous.
Second, you're putting words in my mouth and that is never appreciated. In fact, to me it is just indicative of how simple and black and white the world you live in seems to be, at least to me.
In regard to your third sentence, I think you need to read this post by Moniss:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219806265
not say:
Now me, I'm already thinking about the size of his GoFundMe legal defense.
I guess you assume I'm stupid. But most people are not, they are quite aware of what you mean. At least have the backbone to own it if you are going to have something to say. I'm not the one mincing words or dancing around it. I mean what I say.
And at this point, there's no good reason to further interact with you. Have a great day.
NJCher
(38,223 posts)but you have a nice day, too.
Conjuay
(2,173 posts)Really?
LeftInTX
(30,594 posts)The Mangiones own several country clubs, including Haysfield Country Club in Hunt Valley, as well as healthcare facilities and real estate companies in the Baltimore area.
Luigi is the cousin of Maryland Republican Delegate Nino Mangione, who represents parts of Baltimore County.
According to our media partner at The Baltimore Banner, Luigi's late grandfather, Nicholas Mangione Sr., was a self-made real estate developer who owned country clubs, nursing homes and a radio station. His grandmother Mary, who died in 2023 from Parkinson's disease, was described in an obituary as a hospital benefactor and a music patron.
The Banner reports the Mangione family purchased Turf Valley Country Club in 1978, establishing it as a golf course resort and residential community. According to the Banner, family businesses also include the Lorien Health Services nursing homes and radio station WCBM-AM.
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/unitedhealthcare-luigi-mangione-family-maryland-brian-thompson/
Bluethroughu
(5,988 posts)Oil companies, water poisoners, and unscrupulous food producers make it to prison???
They and this murderer will not suffer the fate of justice in this country. It does not happen and this is why it is only getting worse.
We need justice for ALL, before anything gets better here. We have a former President that incited an insurrection against our Constitution taking office!
AZLD4Candidate
(6,366 posts)Rabble is not allowed to shake the cage of the owners of the country.
Johnny2X2X
(21,881 posts)His book reviews are something. Would not be surprised to read he was was an avid Joe Rogan fan.
Contrarianism has passed for free thinking in our new culture.
ck4829
(36,122 posts)A gramme is always better than a damn
I'd rather be myself," he said. "Myself and nasty. Not somebody else, however jolly.
But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.
Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn't nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/3030721719
All quotes from different characters from the book.
Silent Type
(7,325 posts)enough sympathy to acquit him.
If he's a Una-Bomber type, I'd vote to lock his rear up for good, just like a trump insurrectionist, Timothy McVeigh, etc.
LudwigPastorius
(11,072 posts)He read this title, A Hard Kick in the Nuts: What Ive Learned from a Lifetime of Terrible Decisions, but it didn't seem to do him any good.
Sympthsical
(10,397 posts)Maybe his own surgery. I'm sure we'll find out all the details.
NJCher
(38,223 posts)a lot of people, I have learned, look to psychedelics as a way of expanding their consciousness.
I have learned this from various meditation boards I've been on. It takes a long time to get results for most people (via meditation). Shortcut ways are Gateway, which hastens expanding consciousness. Binaural beats. And then, as I said, psychedelics.
-------------
I also read Atlas Shrugged when I was young. It's on his list. I found it superficial, even as a young reader. Still it's a good idea to check it out so you can condemn it with the credibility of having read it.
spike jones
(1,796 posts)There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year olds life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
NJCher
(38,223 posts)Lord of the Rings, so not sure I get this.
Celerity
(46,862 posts)NJCher
(38,223 posts)but thought I needed to also understand LOTR. Is that the one where they grok each other?
ShazzieB
(18,925 posts)At least I think so. I read the book decades ago, so my memory is sketchy.
nolabear
(43,280 posts)There were a number of books written by adults then that had a distinct adolescent appeal. I read all of them I think. I even liked Ayn Rand until I wised up. Didnt take long.
Hekate
(95,286 posts)
. its amazing. The author, Tolkien, was an Oxford don, deeply serious. He was a scholar of languages, specifically those of early Northern Europe. He knew the myths and legends and sagas backward and forward and translated them into modern English.
He was already at work on his creation of languages when he joined the British military in WWI, along with a number of his friends. I think he was the only one who made it back from the gas and the trenches maybe there was one other.
It was there in that hell that he started creating another world. He spent the rest of his long life writing about Middle Earth when he could spare the time from research, teaching, and the myriad duties of a university professor. His published works were largely academic the translations of Beowulf, Chaucer, the Eddas, and so on but he kept creating Middle Earth. The enormous success of The Hobbit and LOTR surprised him, I think.
I think the battered paperback set I read in the summer of 1965 was the unauthorized first American publication. I had quite a background in F&SF by that time, since it had always been in the house before I could even read. From sheer experience I intuited good writing from bad, and while this didnt hit me as a blinding revelation the way it did others, when I read the last page I proceeded to read all the appendices because I could not let it go. I have read it a number of times since then and in what I think of as a peak moment of my motherhood, I read all of it aloud to my 11 y.o. son in lieu of the books reports he wasnt writing, but could give orally.
In college I met people who were trying to learn Elvish, which I thought was weird. In my family we read F&SF avidly, but the opinion from Mom was that it was escapism and not literature. As it happens, she was wrong.
The further along in my own education I got, the more I realized the depth of knowledge certain authors brought to their fictional worlds. But not every genre or sub-genre fits every reader. I had a fascinating conversation with a cousin and his wife in 2002. He knows about a dozen languages fluently. She is Chinese and a well-known author in China. (A whole bunch of her books are by now translated into English) In any case, LOTR was out in film and the conversation turned on the fact that neither of them understood why the heck it was so popular what did it mean, what in our culture made it so gripping? I felt I didnt explain it well or couldnt get it across the barrier, so I never really stopped thinking about that conversation.
So there it is. All I can tell you is there are reasons and Western/European mythology has a different point of view from Asian/Chinese mythology. My cousin is as American as I am, but his interests and the course of his life are not as mine. His wife is an amazing woman, but I find her novels tough going no mythology involved. So
Sorry if this is TLDR I got interrupted several times, as often happens.
All the best in whatever it is you like to read not everyone is keen on Elves and Wizards.
NJCher
(38,223 posts)I know nothing of fantasy and science fiction except that one of our posters here at DU is a lover of it. For whatever reason, I never spent any time reading it but that might have been because as an English major with a significant interest in languages, I was likely waist high in translations of Beowulf myself. I very much enjoyed reading your post filling me in on it, though, because someone I cared for very much back at that time was a LOTR enthusiast. Talked about it all the time. That's why I wondered what "grokking" me meant. Many, many decades later I finally find out. It is making me very nostalgic.
That you read the appendices because you couldn't let it go rang a bell. I've experienced that, too, but not with FF. I think it was with Clarence Darrow and Eugene V. Debs. I was obsessed with Darrow's work and also that of Debs. I thought about becoming a lawyer because of it, but ultimately rejected the idea because I didn't want to deal with peoples' most difficult, serious moments in life. Darrow most certainly did not have that compunction. To this day, however, I am still fascinated by him and Debs, and I ultimately did do legal work, much in the fashion of Darrow, and decades of organizing and forming unions, like Debs, I even met up with a person whose scholarly work involved the Pullman strike! So interesting/odd how life works out.
Now I'm thinking to check out the film LOTR, just so I can see what you mean about why it had such a hold on our culture back then. That was certainly interesting about your cousin's wife. And oddly enough--my own mother was very involved in elves and wizards!
ShazzieB
(18,925 posts)I had to Google Luigi Mangione just now to figure out what thread was about!
Happens to me here all the time. Now I have o go get caught up!
I know! I wasted my whole afternoon reading.
Thanks--I think you are right about that book citation. What does it mean when someone groks you, though? (sorry, slightly OT)
Hekate
(95,286 posts)I ended up outgrowing Heinlein pretty thoroughly, but because his books were in (or passed thru) the house I did read just about everything of his.
Some things I recall with pleasure that is, parts of things, but I find that for me at least his opinions have not aged well at all. My sisters husband once long ago said Heinlein had only one woman character, and that was of rather thin cardboard. I said I thought he had three: a 12 y.o. girl who would grow up to be sexy and also brilliant, a sexy and brilliant adventurous redheaded wife, and an unpleasant wife/mother. OTT my BIL could have been right.
cer7711
(529 posts)Observed H. Rap Brown in speaking of our sociopathic culture.
Sadly, nihilistic expressions of rage and despair may be all that is left to the hard-pressed, working- and middle-classes now when striking back gainst a cruel, unjust system that murders hundreds of "peasants" every day.
Who mourns and laments the ten-thousand+ yearly dead inflicted in the Moloch name of profit?
I fear we are witnessing the beginning of a savage cycle of lone wolf, leaderless resistance.
If only some of our most pressing issues could be addresed by the oligarchic elites throtting this country.
Where is the new FDR? Saviour of the system?
LauraInLA
(1,355 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(9,739 posts)Wish this received more attention.
"On April 12, 2023, EPA proposed new federal vehicle tailpipe emissions standards that would accelerate the transition to electric vehicles (EVs). The standards would require at least two-thirds of all new cars sold in the United States to be zero-emissions vehicles by 2032. The rules seek to reduce air pollution and climate change. The EPA sought public comment by July 25, 2023. If the rules were approved it would have a significant impact on the transportation sector and public health. In March 2024, EPA finalized the new rules and projected they would cut emissions by 7 billion metric tons, or 56% of 2026 levels, by 2032.
In April 2024, EPA finalized new standards for power plant carbon emissions, projecting cuts of 65,000 tons by 2028 and 1.38 billion tons by 2047. The agency also issued final drinking water standards for six PFAS compounds."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency?wprov=sfla1
Jacson6
(840 posts)We had a kid in our little league baseball that chased after a umpire with a baseball bat because he thought a strike was a ball.
VIOLENCE does not solve anything.
standingtall
(2,994 posts)screw him he ain't no hero. I hear he was a big fan of Elon Musk. Maybe like him (who are not murders) didn't spend decades supporting people like Trump and Musk, the healthcare system wouldn't be in the state it is and this would've never happened.
ecstatic
(34,515 posts)He didn't describe it that way, but apparently Luigi had surgery and was in a lot of pain all the time. He had three screws in his back.I know that chronic pain can make a person suicidal, especially with the crackdown on painkillers.
dalton99a
(84,881 posts)Suspect in C.E.O. Killing Withdrew From a Life of Privilege and Promise
The suspect, Luigi Mangione, was an Ivy League tech graduate from a prominent Maryland family who in recent months had suffered physical and psychological pain.
By Corey Kilgannon, Mike Baker, Luke Broadwater and Shawn Hubler
Dec. 9, 2024
...
But Mr. Mangione was suffering from painful back issues, he said. His spine was kind of misaligned, he said. He said his lower vertebrae were almost like a half-inch off, and I think it pinched a nerve.
Mr. Mangione did not make a habit of complaining, and did not seem to be on any type of painkilling medication, Mr. Martin said.
Still, Mr. Martin said, he and others in the community came to understand that the pain was no small matter to a young man yearning for a normal lifestyle. He knew that dating and being physically intimate with his back condition wasnt possible, Mr. Martin said. I remember him telling me that, and my heart just breaks.
Mr. Mangione left the co-living space after six months to return to the East Coast, where he told Mr. Martin he was planning to see his doctor. He returned to Honolulu afterward and rented an apartment in the same neighborhood.
Mr. Martin said that Mr. Mangione left Hawaii in the summer of 2023, presumably for an operation on his back. In August of that year, Mr. Martin said, he checked in via text to see how his friend was doing, and he sent me back pictures of his back surgery.
The pictures scans of Mr. Mangiones spine were so jarring that Mr. Martin texted back asking how Mr. Mangione was feeling. So, long story, Mr. Mangione replied, according to Mr. Martin. Will fill ya in in person. Back in Hawaii as soon as I can, I have to figure out some spine stuff here first.
...
NJCher
(38,223 posts)My own brother had to come up with $55,000 on his own to pay off a back operation due to insurance chicanery. I know how much pain he went through and how debilitating it was.
dalton99a
(84,881 posts)Blue_Roses
(13,456 posts)until the pay wall left me hanging...
uncledad
(66 posts)It's interesting to watch the Corporate Media Coverage of this murder. It was pretty much non-stop for days, endless speculation, trashing law enforcement for not catching this idiot sooner. Apparently a wealthy healthcare CEO's life is much more important than the hundreds of people who are gunned down every day in this country. Now that the murderer is behind bars the coverage is all about how outrageous it is for regular people to resort to violence to correct the injustice many of them fell at the hands of these for-profit conglomerates. But then again those "regular dead folk" don't subsidize the corporate media (cnn, abc, msnbc, faux, etc.) like the for profit healthcare industry does. Almost every ad you see on these so called "news" programs are for healthcare insurance or over-priced pharmaceuticals. Does anyone really think that they would report the truth about what these companies are doing all in the name of shareholder value. Will they ever report on the horrible side effects that millions of people suffer from because they were sold one prescription drug or another on their tee-vee machine? Hell no they won't.