This is an awkward thing to post

[canetoad]

Given the business of Luigi Mangione but I just want to point out that many of us are 60, 70 or older and we need to consider what the upcoming generations think of this issue.

Stating that it is wrong or right is not doing civil discourse a favour. We need to understand WHY so many people think Mangione is a folk hero. Do this, or be left behind.

We cannot influence politics from beyond the grave and unfortunately, that's where many of us will be within the next couple of decades. If you feel your idealism has failed - then ask why. But the answer must ultimately be an open one.....

Accept change whether you like it or not. Please don't accuse me of 'giving in' because I'm not. I'm being realistic. Love you all....

[dweller]

1. You mean the upcoming generations

That have been terrorized with the gun humper coalition from kindergarten through high school ?
I’m surprised more have not taken up the cause … after all it’s not like 2A is going away any day soon .

😐



✌🏻

[GenThePerservering]

2. What surprises me is that so man people think actions like this

are something new. They are not. The times, whatever times they may be, have often brought forth someone who may have done something heinous, but have expressed so strongly the frustrations and anger of so many that they become anti-heroes.

[BeerBarrelPolka]

4. There's a street

There's a street in Chicago named Cermak. Look up its history.

I agree with your post.

[Grins]

26. And an avenue named Touhy....

[Renew Deal]

27. And a broad way called Broadway

[LeftInTX]

52. So I was reading about Cermak

1. He didn't kill anyone nor did he harm anyone.
2. Chicago was ripe for change. It was gonna happen.


People have been complaining about health care costs for a very, very long time. I've been to a Medicare for All rally and frankly out of a metro area of 2.5 million people, one hundred showed up. Meanwhile, the Tea Party have all their goons.

Movements need to be organic. I just don't see this here. I don't see people in the streets. Instead I see people bickering on the internet. This reminds me more of Edward Snowden. He was also a sudden gonna be the big change!!! Well that turned out well.....I was told to put up on shut up on DU. Snowden was a hero. Avatars were made. Will there be a Che like Avatar of Luigi???? And what happened with Snowden???

The odds are that health care is not going to get any better in the next two years. What are we gonna do about it?? People might protest. Will anything happen??

So what's left? A Russian style Bolshevik Revolution??? Forcing doctors to provide affordable care like in Dr Zhivago?? Do we want to be like Zhivago and come home to 20 people living in our home?? Are we really that mad?? Or is it just internet snarkiness???

Over 10 years ago, someone on DU said we really needed to get mad because the standard of the living was much worse than India's;
They don't even have toilets in much of India. People even poop on the train tracks because there is nowhere to go.

&ab_channel=JaewookAhn

Yeah right. We're worse than India.

&ab_channel=RidewithGabi

[stopdiggin]

10. quite right. and the reaction (and there always is one)

may or may not 'advance the cause' - such as it be - depending on the perspective it is viewed from (legal, social, ethical, political) - as well as how many years, or decades, down the road the viewing takes place.

[RobinA]

63. Really

Just ask the Archduke Ferdinand or is wife. Oops, ya can't because they were killed at close range on the street by a student. One of the first things I thought about when this happened. This stuff is as old as the hills. I'm surprised too when people start with the "What is our country coming to" arguments. Humans acting like humans is what.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

77. I don't recall any shooters in school until Columbine. I have to disagree.

The worst I saw in the 60’s was a school mate “sass” a teacher and the teacher slapped her. That was pretty much the big event during my school years. That and me (a girl) beat up a boy who thought he was funny by stealing my candy.

[Irish_Dem]

3. I agree, most of us are still living in the world that used to be.

Not the one we currently live in.

Our old world apparently is no longer there.

Welcome to Brave New World.

[canetoad]

6. Rec

You get it

[Irish_Dem]

8. People are really struggling.

It is hard to wrap our heads around the new reality.

[RobinA]

64. It's Not

a brave new world, it's the world that always was. Post WWII, the US and much of the world had some shining moments in an economy unlike the world had ever seen up to that point. We can be pardoned a bit for thinking that's the way it always is, since it's all we ever knew, but it isn't. So now we get the crap most of Europe has been dealing with since the very beginning.

[Irish_Dem]

66. I agree, but it is the world we grew up in and knew.

What we didn't know is that it was a brief shining moment, warts and all.

We lived in a golden age of America and we didn't realize it.

The men came home from WWII. They wanted peace in the valley and to raise their families.
The US became a superpower and prosperous.

We made social and political changes for the better, progress was made for women, minorities, the ecology.

But now, the global power has shifted tremendously and the US is in major decline.

So it is a new world for the US. It is the first time the greatest democracy in the world
turns into a fascist regime and turns back the clock on progress 100 years.

[GenThePerservering]

5. There is no 'old world'

there is no 'brave new world'. The briefest reading of history teaches us that.

[canetoad]

7. I'm not sure I understand you post

Beyond literary references. Wanna eleborate?

[GenThePerservering]

11. There's a delusion that somehow history turns a page

and suddenly everything is different. Somehow a 'new world' is created. A brief reading of history will show how events, reactions, etc. repeat down through history. Maybe some new tools, maybe some new words, but the same old human nature.

ETA: Heather Scott Richardson (Letters from an American) has great thoughts on how history keeps repeating.

[canetoad]

14. Back in my 20's

A learned man, a professor who had lived through the nazi occupation of Holland, used to challenge me on philosophical questions. He argued, "People do not change". I argued against this.

Several decades later I know he was correct. People do not change.

[electric_blue68]

29. I disagree. There Are people capable of changing. Maybe a minority, but they're there.

[canetoad]

48. Examine the behaviour of those people very closely

The changes may be superficial but underneath, the person remains the same.

[Karadeniz]

62. According to real christian theology, individuals do change for the better thanks

to the souls working out its karmic debt. However, that can take innumerable lifetimes. Still, each person's soul is at its own level of development, so society has a spectrum of enlightened members. There are definitely people whose undeveloped souls prevent their rising above materialism, abject egotism, intolerance, etc. These will be attracted to those whose values are of a similar nature. Hence, the modern GOP membership. They simply don't possess enough soul energy/nature to consider the welfare of others and issues beyond their noses. So, although individuals may be more caring, generous, etc than others, they can seem invisible when lost in a society dominated by small minds.

[RobinA]

65. Some Individuals

can change, but human beings as a group pretty much act like human beings act.

[arthritisR_US]

78. I think you should read post 66.

[rampartd]

9. why is mangione a folk herlo?

consider jesse james, bonnie and clyde, pretty boy floyd are the heroes of ballads

even this 34 count felon i adored by many

why do serial killers always get sacks of fan mail?

[3Hotdogs]

24. My folk heros --- Mark Rudd. Abby Hoffman. George Metesky. The Berrigan Brothers. John Brown.

Joe Hill. Nat Turner. Denmark Vessey--- and on and on.

[H2O Man]

25. Years ago,

I think in 2008, I did a DU interview with Mark Rudd. I was fortunate to do some work with Daniel & Phillip Berrigan in the 1980s. And I got high and laughed a lot with Abbie.

[rampartd]

49. i definitely get it

robin hood is an enduring hero of our culture. spartacus, ......

[kerry-is-my-prez]

76. Loved them. They came to Ann Arbor to do a sit in at UofM's admin building.

They scared them so much they built a new admin n building that had nothing on the first floor! Unfortunately I missed them at U of M by several years. Saw Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda though one time.

[haele]

12. I understand the folk hero appeal.

John Brown, Billy the Kid, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Bonny and Clyde and John Dillinger were considered folk heroes also.
They stuck it to The System, suck it to The Man.

Not pretty, but with an increasing number of put up on people becoming aware of the culturally accepted Wealth and Political disparities in the world around them, the more angry they become.

It's something to be expected, like when petulant, confused kids or adults who are having problems with emotional maturity turning to readily available guns when they decide they've had enough of being dis-respected or taken advantage of.

Civility and Social Compacts cannot exist one way.

Haele

[malaise]

50. Civility and Social Compacts cannot exist one way

THIS

[Shell_Seas]

13. Maybe we should shift the conversation to "post-capitalism?"

[canetoad]

16. I've (only half jokingly) declared myself to be

The founding member of the post-consumerist society for years. It's a good way to explain my lack of inherited wealth. Post Capitalism is a pipe-dream. Post consumerism is a personal position anyone can adopt.

[usonian]

15. Goes way back to Robin Hood, maybe earlier. But my memory .......

I can't really see how young people are concerned about health insurance. Maybe their parents are!

And in a few years, society may be rocked by things like AI more than anything else. Assuming Orange Shitler gets the Benito Mussolini treatment.

But do note that we grew up in schools that were open. First, they built fences around them like prisons, and then they became killing fields. This is a gigantic change in life. Sure I remember fire drills, even the local elementary school burning down after hours because of one really troubled kid. And yes, lightning entered the window and zapped around the light fixtures once, but nothing like WWII style drills for incoming buzz bombs, or worse, massacre.

[Lars39]

17. You think young adults

haven’t already seen their parents or even themselves be crushed by ER, hospital, and doctor bills?

[usonian]

18. Good point. I honestly don't know.

[electric_blue68]

33. Too young for WWII drills, but how about like in NYC the monthly Nuclear Bonb Air raid drills. With the Sirens howling..

across the city! For X years!

If I think of it, I can "hear" those sirens! We luckily never did "duck & cover", what a joke that was.

[usonian]

35. We had sirens in MA/Boston area.

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, things got really spooky. Don't remember if there were sirens.

Later moved to Sunnyvale, mighty close to The Blue Cube, which was the single satcom center, and target #1 for Russian missiles.

CA still has duck and cover for earthquakes. And now, for shooters. No joke.

[electric_blue68]

39. Boston, sure, all the biggest important cities make sense! I never heard of....

"The Blue Cube"! Wow.

I can sort of see duck & cover for an earthquake but you'd know a helluva lot more about than that than me!

School shootings, I d k if that's worth it. What a terrible situation for these kids.
Frigging gun nuts (I'd sure like a whole less of guns, and them around).

[usonian]

74. Sorry, missed your reply.

The Blue Cube is decommissioned now. No windows.

It was command and control for who knows what (I had no need to know)

Had to be number 1 Russian ICBM target.

P-130s would constantly fly into Moffet Field with data retrieved from Sonobuoys.

Things change.

[electric_blue68]

75. Hey, No problemo! And TY. Add it to a list of mysteries

[rasputin1952]

43. I was part of the NYC School System

Those "drills" were absurd.

Huge multi-paned window (sunlight is good for you).

Back then, if there was a nuclear (or in some scenarios, a conventional attack) and you survived being shredded by glass
from the blast to make it under your desk. Said desk would become your funeral pyre.

The reality was, if you were not vaporized, the blast wave would shatter all of that glass, either carving you to pieces or making you wish you were dead. The heat would start a conflagration, instantly setting the wood ablaze, and quickly melt the iron frame, just before your lungs burned from within. Your eyes would be popped out of their sockets, dangling by your optic nerves, and you'd be deaf.

The best you could hope for would be death rather than being a roasted corpse. Any, or all of this would be mercifully quick for most. But if you survived the above not only would you have 3rd degree burns over 75% of your body, and the stench of burning flesh for days, or perhaps weeks would haunt you, as you died a painful, somewhat prolonged death from radiation exposure.

Any and all of this is depressing, to say the least, I'd go for the vaporization.

[IbogaProject]

40. Uh our youth are much more sickly

The thing is health care has gone AWOL from its prime directive. It is now about profit, which the market says must grow. In 1999 insulin was less than $50 a bottle, I think even less. It was?stable in price from 1982 upto around 1999. Then during the Bush administration the price jumped to $300 for same amount of insulin and the newer formulations are often weaker and require more.

The AMA kept the number of Medical school seats below what our country needs. We end up poaching doctors from other countries. This has made medicine a type of natural1prp3rrtmonoloply. These huge corporate medical providers are crowding out independent ones.

I will give an example of a typical millennial with healthcare, I'm Gen X but a younger friend got hit by a car and he got stuck in a catch-22 where he couldnt sue or get care with out an MRI on his knee. Price (2010) $800, for someone living hand to mouth.

Eppipens skyrocked in cost after Senator Manchin's daughter became ceo of a pharma corp and jacked the price over ten fold higher.

And finally our food has been declining in nutritional quality as minerals have been depleted from our farmlands.

Luigi while raised affluent may have bones much weaker than someone born a few decades before him.

I bet he had trouble getting adequate pain medicine. They are so stingy due to regulations which make Doctors reluctant to ever write someone a second script. I've had two breaks requiring metal and screws. It was close to impossible to get meds once out of the hospital.

[usonian]

42. I'm so old I can't keep track of the generation numbers (yes, a boomer)

Our daughter, a youngster in the 90's, has great health. Maybe food and pollution got significantly worse since then.

OUCH on those bones.

What can I say?. I grew up in the 50's with a second-generation Italian-American mom who made things basically from scratch, since there were few processed foods. I myself was using bottled "tomato sauce" and it all tasted so artificial that I went back to her recipe and it's infinitely better than anything on the shelves. (but it's otherwise very hard to cook well for one).

So get this. I had colic as a baby, and was prescribed either paregoric or laudanum. Both have opium derivatives and the latter has alcohol, to boot. Been in great health all my life. And great digestion after that business was over with. I guess that pollution and all the millions of additives are worse.

[LeftInTX]

45. Pain meds are dirt cheap! If insurance doesn't cover it, you can get a month's supply for about $10.

My insurance doesn't cover my benzodiazepine. You know what I pay? $4.28 for a 90 day supply.

OTOH My hormone replacement therapy is very expensive.

And yes, I've got a 90- day supply of codeine with acetaminophen.

[IbogaProject]

81. There is an age bias, hard to get an Rx as a Gen-X or younger

Yes the pills are cheap but getting the prescription is the hurdle. I say this after going through two bad breaks, neither time was easy. I broke my leg this year and it was tough to get enough and once I was out of the hospital I was left in withdrawal. It would have taken a determined effort to find a pain clinic and get the RX. I'm lucky the pain abated but my recovery would have been faster if I had better drugs those first few months and could have pushed more with my early Physical Therapy. I am not condoning the killing just explaining there is a reverse age bias against giving young males pain medicines now after the Sackler's Purdue Pharma pushed so many pills over the years.

[FirstLight]

19. Someone posted this JFK quote recently here on DU

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

[Remarks on the first anniversary of the Alliance for Progress, 13 March 1962]
John F. Kennedy

I think we have hit the tipping point.
Stagnant wages, millionaire class, etc.
I don't care what the job numbers say, I see my Gen Z kids barely scraping by and jobs are not as forthcoming as you think... even then, they cant afford to live...
One health issue causes devastation. Firing for being ill or unable to do the tasks without accommodations... asking for accommodations means you're lazy... It goes on and on.
When all you see of your future is a downward spiral, its hard to think of a good reason to play by the rules.
Especially since all the people who are "winning" don't do so.

I don't know about the kid being a 'folk hero ' and I get that he came from privilege as well...but hes an example of what happens when you lose hope...

[LeftInTX]

46. It's been that way for quite awhile. Yet, they elected Trump.

They elected the GOP to control the senate.

Lots of people lose hope and lots of those people kill people, but we don't idolize them. The unabomber did the same thing. So did the school shooters. I don't know why this dude is so "special".

If we have reached a tipping point, why was Trump elected?????
Why aren't people in the streets???

Why are Medicare for All rallies lackluster events???

[stopdiggin]

20. disagree that there is any deep sociological element (nor probably consequense) at play here.

There has always been a certain amount of undercurrent admiration for the outlaw - going clear back into mythological figures such as Robinhood. Bootleggers, Jesse James, pirates, all sharing a certain fascination, grandiosity and acclaim .. and on down to the dregs such as Ruby Ridge and the Bundys ..) Social media just serves to make these things seem more 'next door', immediate, and consequential. We've had 'movements' of all different stripes in this country (and others) - and only very rarely does this type of individual, or action, serve as any meaningful roll as either figurehead or catalyst for them.

Reading something momentous into this sad sack is probably a very large mistake. People are pissed off at insurance companies - corporate greed? Oh, really? Such a surprise! And, know what - they have been for a long, long time ....

[LeftInTX]

47. That's so true!!! You said it so eloquently!!

[Drum]

21. I guess we're trending toward "laws be damned" by the looks of things.

Last edited Wed Dec 11, 2024, 11:33 PM - Edit history (3)

Suddenly I’m glad I’m in my 60s, because I might not suffer as much despair ultimately as those in their 30s. Some of the most basic precepts that we thought would endure seem to be just worthless in opposition to fame and wealth and ease.

When we capitulate standards of decency, law, and civility, we’re doomed. The rest just seems to be a matter of timing. Democrats spinning out on tangents and attacking each other is EXACTLY how we got here, and it’s happened for some last number of elections. Enough already.

[Kid Berwyn]

22. We used to value every human life.

For a while, that meant everyone. I remember being brought up to respect others, no matter race, creed, or socioeconomic status.

Pablo Casals, the cellist whom JFK invited to perform at the White House, was pretty spot on what we need to do.

Pablo Casals: “In the confusion that afflicts the world today, I see a disrespect for the very values of life. Beauty is all about us, but how many are blind to it! They look at the wonder of this earth — and seem to see nothing. People move hectically but give little thought to where they are going…

“Each second we live in a new and unique moment of the universe, a moment that never was before and will never be again. And what do we teach our children in school? We teach them that two and two makes four, and that Paris is the capital of France. When will we also teach them what they are? We should say to each of them: Do you know what you are? You are a marvel. You are unique. In all of the world there is no other child exactly like you. In the millions of years that have passed there has never been another child like you. And look at your body — what a wonder it is! Your legs, your arms, your cunning fingers, the way you move! You may become a Shakespeare, a Michelangelo, a Beethoven. You have the capacity for anything. Yes, you are a marvel. And when you grow up, can you then harm another who is, like you, a marvel? You must cherish one another. You must work — we all must work — to make this world worthy of its children.”

Source: https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/03/10/pablo-casals-joys-and-sorrows-jfk/

Unfortunately, that story of loving one another and appreciating one another and a New Frontier was replaced by the twin mottos of a fascist Dixie cabal: might makes right and white is right. Thus today the great many fall victim to the very few with power and means to effect change. They like being boss and don’t care who they have to get out of their way to this day.

Wall Street, Washington and the GOP state capitals help keep a boot on the neck of the future generations by making them feel life is hopeless weakens their ability to see their options for choosing a better future. Rupert Murdoch and his Turd Reich News help keep the People in the dark and in despair also helps limit their ability to resist.

[HUAJIAO]

28. I had the great fortune to play two orchestra concerts

under the direction of Pablo Casals with the Memphis Symphony in, oh probably 1969. Walking slowly to the podium he reached out and took my arm and I helped him, along with his young wife, across the stage. He must have been in his 90s.

[canetoad]

30. Thank you

It makes me feel closer to him by reading your personal memory.

[electric_blue68]

34. A beautiful memory! Ty

[Kid Berwyn]

54. Thank you for sharing that incredible time!

As you know, HUAJIAO, Pau Casals was one of the greatest artists to ever perform. As a young student, he rediscovered Bach’s works for solo cello in a used book store and brought these masterpieces of classical music to our Age. I have had the honor of meeting American-Israeli cellist Amit Peled, who performed with Casals’ cello, a 1733 Gofriller personally loaned to him by the artist’s widow, Marta Casals Istomin.

[HUAJIAO]

70. Yes, I "met" Marta briefly after the concert.

Casals conducted his piece about world peace. I just found the Memphis Symphony history. It was Oct 22, 1968. :&gt )

It was interesting. He arrived at the concert hall in a wheel chair, of course. When it was time to go on stage, Marta and I ( as the timpanist I was conveniently located at the rear of the stage right where he made his entrance) helped him slowly walk to the podium and mount it, as I explained. Up until then he was definitely a stooped over, 90+ year old man. BUT, the instant he started to conduct(and this happened in rehearsal as well) he immediately lost 40 years!!! It was unbelievable to experience!

I also, several years before, when I was either in undergrad or grad school, heard him play a recital in Washington- maybe at the Kennedy Center, if it existed at that time, I forget if it was before or after Nov 1963.

Anyway.. a nice connection.

[Minnie the Hoosier]

36. Where is JFK in that photo?

I see Jackie, but is JFK the one leaning over to his right?

[Kid Berwyn]

57. Yes, that was him. JFK deeply appreciated the arts.

Kennedy also understood the importance of art in matters of freedom and spirit, politics and nations. He invited Casals to perform at a dinner in honor of Luis Muñoz Marín, governor of Puerto Rico. Casals moved to the territory in order to live in freedom — he abhorred Franco and fascist Spain.



“I look forward to an America which will reward achievement in the arts as we reward achievement in business or statecraft. I look forward to an America which will steadily raise the standards of artistic accomplishment and which will steadily enlarge cultural opportunities for all of our citizens.”

Details on the historic dinner: https://www.jfklibrary.org/sites/default/files/2020-05/Casals%20Picture%20Book%20Final_0.pdf

[malaise]

51. When was that?

Serious question

[Kid Berwyn]

53. November 13, 1961

A meaningful performance. The Spanish cellist headlined the 1961 state dinner that the Kennedys held for Luis Muñoz Marín, the governor of Puerto Rico. Casals lived in Puerto Rico at the time because he opposed the dictatorship in Spain. One of the songs he performed, “Song of the Birds,” is a Catalan Christmas carol that, according to the Kennedy Presidential Library, symbolized Spain as well as Casals’ feelings for hope and freedom.

Source: https://stories.state.gov/dinner-is-served/dance/pablo-casals/



A Night to Remember

Excerpt…

On November 13, 1961, President and Mrs. Kennedy hosted a State Dinner for the governor of Puerto Rico, Luis Muñoz Marín, and his wife, Inés Mendoza de Muñoz. The Kennedys invited a world-renowned musician to perform at the event. The concert made history and was one of the most memorable musical events of the Kennedy presidency.

https://www.jfklibrary.org/learn/education/teachers/curricular-resources/a-night-to-remember

[PittBlue]

58. That is one of the most beautiful things that I have ever read.

As a retired educator, this tears at my heart. Thank you for sharing this.

[Kid Berwyn]

67. You are most welcome, PittBlue!

Casals was profound. Were all of the planet's parents to follow its main message, of doing all we can to make this world worthy of its children, the world would be transformed into the paradise it could and should be.

I am proud to write that many members of my family are educators. Thank you for shining light.

[PittBlue]

68. I will forever treasure this.

I wish that I would have read this years ago. This is how I always looked at my students. I learned so much from each of them.

[Kid Berwyn]

69. Like me, they are most fortunate to have learned from you.

“Truth is the beginning of every good to the gods, and of every good to man.” -- Plato

"Students work hardest for teachers they like and respect. When I'm asked, 'How do I get students to like and respect me?' My immediate response is, 'Like and respect them first.'" -- Dr. Debbie Silver

[PittBlue]

71. I was a high school librarian in a poor district in SW PA.

We had a beautiful library due to all of the federal funding that we received. The library was a haven for many of my students. We were like family…I still hear from many of them. I had the best job ever.
About 5 years after I retired they remodeled the school. All of my books and beautiful paintings that we had went into dumpsters. My heart still aches when I think of it.

[LogDog75]

23. Remember, nottoo long ago

conservatives were talking about using their Second Amendment Rights to get what they wanted? It was a threat to use guns to make changes to society. Well, now that some nut used his, according to conservatives, their Second Amendment Rights all of a sudden they are complaining about what happened.

Well what did they think was going to happen when they kept yelling about using their Second Amendment Rights? Eventually, it was going to happen.

[rubbersole]

32. Maybe Rittenhouse should complain...

1984 + 40 = tsf's 2nd.

[Jack Valentino]

31. 'The Next Luigi is watching'

That's my suggested message to all those capitalist pigs who put profits over the lives of people.


I presume that includes most Republicans elected to public office.

As Elizabeth Warren said--- in effect--
'there are limits to what the people will take'

[usonian]

37. I found some more tonight researching something else. FWIW ....

WHAT PEOPLE WERE PRAYING FOR


EXULTANT


And rather bothersome, this one. Verbatim. Check the link, not edited by me.

[arthritisR_US]

38. This young chap decided that his victim was the true culprit,

however he never considered how his target’s industry was totally okayed by the government, the government that should be protecting him and the nation and not their fecking pockets, there is a real problem here.

[Emile]

60. I had a duer tell me yesterday, the reason why we didn't

have universal single payer healthcare was because we are not sending enough money to our elected representatives to represent us.

[arthritisR_US]

61. Citizens United is the real problem IMO.

[Cirsium]

41. John Brown

“I do not feel conscious of guilt in taking up arms; and had it been in behalf of the rich and powerful, the intelligent, the great—as men count greatness—of those who form enactments to suit themselves and corrupt others, or some of their friends, that I interfered, suffered, sacrificed and fell, it would have been doing very well."

- John Brown

“Let those who have reproaches to heap upon the authors of the Harper’s Ferry bloody tumult and general Southern fright, go back to the true cause of it all. Let them not blame blind and inevitable instruments in the work, nor falsely malign those who are in nowise implicated, directly or indirectly; but let them patiently investigate the true source whence this demonstration arose, and then bestow their curses and anathemas accordingly."

“Old Brown is simply a spark of a great fire kindled by shortsighted mortals... There is no just responsibility resting anywhere, no just attribution of causes anywhere, for this violent attempt that does not fall directly upon the South itself. It has deliberately challenged and wantonly provoked the elements that have concentrated and exploded.”

- J. S. Pike, the Washington correspondent of the New York Tribune

“Marvelous old man! He has abolished slavery in Virginia. True, the slave is still there. So, when the tempest uproots a pine on your hill, it looks green for months—a year or two. Still, it is timber, not a tree. John Brown has loosened the roots of the slave system; it only breathes—it does not live—hereafter.”

- Wendell Phillips

“This will be a great day in our history; the date of a new Revolution—quite as much needed as the old one. Even now as I write, they are leading old John Brown to execution in Virginia for attempting to rescue slaves! This is sowing the wind to reap the whirlwind, which will come soon.”

- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

[flvegan]

44. Bastardization of the definition of anti hero. Not folk hero.

I think that's what's happened here with that idiot.

Also why I abandoned my Punisher avatar here after many years.

[Happy Hoosier]

55. I can separate my idealism from my realism.

I can have both idealistic goals and a realistic approach to the world.

[Prairie Gates]

56. From the generation that brought us "Get outta the new one if ya can't lend a hand..."

Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command. Never mind your grandkids!

[ecstatic]

59. I'm from a younger generation but my concern is the slippery slope aspect

I feel empathy for LM's plight with his back and the horrific pain that, from what I've been told, can drive a person insane. I think I understand what drove him to do it--I think he truly believed that it was time to take action, and I appreciate that he didn't kill other bystanders or turn it into a mass shooting.

It's complicated, for sure. However, turning him into a hero doesn't feel right to me. For me, it's just further evidence of our nation's decline and impending collapse.

Also, glorifying this man puts us (the left) in danger. We have to be clear about the type of person who usually takes up arms in this manner: It's not us. It's usually rightwing zealots (or former rightwingers).

Currently, maga ideology dominates the airwaves, and it's ensnaring and radicalizing new men everyday. Look at Fetterman, for example. So the next high profile target for assassination could be a prominent Democrat. Remember, someone already tried with Pelosi, and trump and his deplorables celebrated it.

[AntiFascist]

72. I feel Mangione is remarkable in that...

he has managed to bring together many on the Left and the Right toward a common cause against the most oppressive aspects of capitalistic health care. As more and more people on the Right begin to feel that Trump has left them behind in favor of the wealthy, this could build into something of a turnaround, although hopefully not a violent one.

I would also continue to point out that Mangione himself does not seem to be much of a Leftist. He admires and follows people like Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and RFK Jr. Also, he has reposted anti-woke sentiments on social media.

[allegorical oracle]

73. Given your spelling of favor, would you suggest we have a National Health Care?

[canetoad]

80. None of my business

I have it. It's extremely civilized.

[CentralMass]

79. I call'em like I see'em. Stalking someone and murdering them is wrong, period.