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PCIntern

(27,059 posts)
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:20 AM Dec 24

This post will probably sink like a stone...

But on this Christmas Eve, I would like to make what I consider a significant point about America and why this clown could be reelected with even more votes than he received the first two times he ran.

Simply put, Americans have little or no institutional/national memory. They are trained not to have a memory and I’m going to tell you how it is inculcated into us. Did you ever have a favorite broadcaster on TV or radio whom you watched for a great many years and all of a sudden they left the station? It may have been because of a format change, retirement, or a problem with new leadership in management, but for whatever reason one day they were gone. In the vast number of circumstances, they are never mentioned again… Ever. In Philadelphia we have had broadcasters who had incredibly long tenures at the TV and radio stations and their names are never mentioned on that station after they depart. It is apparently a given in the industry.

Yes, it is true that people talk, usually briefly, about Walter Cronkite or David Brinkley, but that is because they were associated with covering world-altering events such as the Kennedy Assassination or the fall of the Iron Curtain. But it’s not just the broadcast media which exercises this prerogative.

Sports teams, no matter how successful, rarely mention previously employed players unless they are in the superstar or Hall of fame categories and even then, it’s kept to an absolute minimum. I’ll give you an example: I have been a Philadelphia sports fan since 1958 and our local, very much of a “Homer” media will reference a particular team, whether good (not often) or awful (more frequently) and IF a player is mentioned from that team it is nearly always the same player, as though the team consisted of this guy and a number of insignificant no-names. But I’ll tell you what: if a fellow by the name of Del Unser had not doubled in the top of the tenth inning in the fifth and deciding game of the Phillies-Astros playoff series, the Phillies likely would have not eventually gone on to the World Series and won their first title ever in their history. Del who? I have not heard his name mentioned in a Phillies broadcast since 1985 or so. Not once.

And lastly, in the music industry, once you’re out of favor, your concert venues metamorphose from stadiums to coffee houses and oldie festivals thirty years later. The music vanishes literally into the ether. Remember The Grass Roots? Yes? No? As per Wiki:

“ In their career, they achieved two gold albums and two gold singles, and charted singles on the Billboard Hot 100 a total of 21 times. Among their charting singles, they achieved Top 10 three times, Top 20 six times and Top 40 14 times.[6][7] They have sold over 20 million records worldwide”

When is the last time anyone talked about them? (Ok ok, yeah. You have their albums. I get it but you ain’t the masses) Gone With the Wind they are…

So Americans have no need to know history apparently. My history courses in junior high and high school were atrocious in every respect. I learned about civics, historical trends, history itself, and government in my mid-late twenties via newspapers and books I’d taken out of the “liberry” (sic). I was a doctoral recipient attending and then instructing at an Ivy League institution and a vacant moron when it came to this subject. Embarrassing. I’m still wildly undereducated in this respect.

So I work with people in their twenties and thirties. Many have never, and will proudly state this, watched a black and white film or tv show including but not limited to documentaries and recaps of historical news broadcasts. One fellow complimented me upon the use of the phrase “low-down”. When I asked him why, he stated that it was new….i told him that it wasn’t new when I was five years old and he actually did not believe me. He asked the only other person in the office nearly my age-within 10 years- and she just laughed at him. She literally said to him, “Are you a moron or just plain stupid?” I thought that a bit harsh, but not really out of bounds.

The American amnesia is sufficiently pervasive that many millions have literally forgotten the entire Trump Presidency as though it never happened. Many recall with certainty the pandemic beginning under President Biden and many wonder why President Obama wasn’t in the White House where he belonged on 9/11. We used to think it was a minority, but it isn’t a trivial one. Hell, these people can’t remember the brand of beer they drank daily from five years ago so why should they know anything about national or world events and personalities?

With this ignorance and unwillingness to learn from history comes hate and prejudice. We are reliving the 1930’s except Roosevelt isn’t President, a diseased version of Charles Lindbergh is soon going to be inaugurated and we are truly going to require a Deus ex machina for our salvation. But, it is not likely, for to slightly paraphrase Shakespeare: the fault lies not in our stars, but in ourselves. We are the weak link: deliberately undereducated and programmed by the corporate media

Well: a very Merry Christmas, a Happy Chanukah, and a Heri za Kwanzaa to all! And if you are an atheist, have a wonderful week!

99 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
This post will probably sink like a stone... (Original Post) PCIntern Dec 24 OP
AMEN recovering_democrat Dec 24 #1
That's all true. bucolic_frolic Dec 24 #2
If people have not read it, I can strongly suggest reading "A Fever In The Heartland" by Timothy Egan GeoWilliam750 Dec 24 #66
I recommend Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the U.S." Martin68 Dec 25 #88
Also an excellent read. GeoWilliam750 Dec 26 #98
Nail meet hammer Pachamama Dec 24 #3
Happy....er...what? Clouds Passing Dec 24 #4
the smothers brothers, phil donahue were superstars rampartd Dec 24 #5
We are trained to work The Madcap Dec 24 #6
Oh Yeah. Some of my Nordic friends call Americans "Ants" ....it ain't a compliment. chouchou Dec 24 #35
Information overload The Wizard Dec 24 #7
This is what I want to say... madaboutharry Dec 24 #8
Is that them new bees or hornets that invaded us from Asia? 3Hotdogs Dec 24 #23
Yum! Shipwack Dec 24 #51
Sounds like it'll bee good! calimary Dec 25 #96
Joyce Vance shared a recipe for Rugelach on her Substack. soldierant Dec 24 #81
Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia Wicked Blue Dec 24 #9
And eliminate DOE in Project 2025 Evolve Dammit Dec 24 #25
People need to watch jeopardy MacKasey Dec 24 #10
True, but Jeopardy has changed. LisaM Dec 24 #15
I have a friend born in the 1950s IbogaProject Dec 24 #57
It depends on the categories. LisaM Dec 24 #64
Alot more pop culture QA as well. nt Ilsa Dec 24 #77
"I went home for lunch" BumRushDaShow Dec 24 #34
I lived 2 blocks from school MacKasey Dec 24 #46
I lived about 4 blocks from my original elementary school BumRushDaShow Dec 24 #53
I had the exact experience as a kid, La Coliniere Dec 24 #65
Frankly, I think that is exactly the wrong approach. malthaussen Dec 24 #67
I can appreciate your disagreement MacKasey Dec 24 #70
An interesting observation, and of course it leads to Santayana's famous remark, Ocelot II Dec 24 #11
I frequently get posts from a group called "Old Time Baseball" in my fb feed. malthaussen Dec 24 #68
This is why history isn't linear, but moves in cycles Blaukraut Dec 24 #72
This message was self-deleted by its author Chin music Dec 24 #12
Historians are fully aware of what you both say. Which is why they become historians in the first place, and why ancianita Dec 24 #21
bookmarking to read later. Thank you. I rec'd it already and want to chew on a bit - and provide a respose. NewHendoLib Dec 24 #13
Yep. Another way to put it is "here and now" -- that's all Americans care about, the current KPN Dec 24 #14
We also often forget when our stars are no longer with us. keep_left Dec 24 #16
Outstanding. Mike 03 Dec 24 #17
I always refer to a sense of history. murielm99 Dec 24 #18
No Long-Term Memory is how bastards get the US Taxpayer on the Hook Kid Berwyn Dec 24 #19
Sigh...sadly, all true. pandr32 Dec 24 #20
To me, the key line on your post: Escurumbele Dec 24 #22
There's never a magical time of remembering Sympthsical Dec 24 #24
Ho ho ho... PCIntern Dec 24 #28
Do you know all kinds of 1880s and 90s singers as well? Popular theater actors of the Gilded Age? Sympthsical Dec 24 #39
Memory intelpug Dec 25 #83
I remember the Grass Roots. My band opened for them Mblaze Dec 24 #26
That's actually pretty cool... PCIntern Dec 24 #29
The band we opened for that sucked the most Mblaze Dec 24 #40
I remember them too BlueSpot Dec 26 #97
They definitely had some hits. Mblaze Dec 26 #99
Sanewashing is brainwashing. dchill Dec 24 #27
Happy & healthy New Year to you and yours, PCI Hekate Dec 24 #30
And to you!!! PCIntern Dec 24 #41
Let's Live ForToday JMCKUSICK Dec 24 #31
Gore Vidal dubbed the US thucythucy Dec 24 #32
Excellent points, perfectly articulated. PCIntern Dec 24 #42
You jumped right from radios to smart phones. What about TV? nt Nittersing Dec 24 #48
TV obviously also had an impact, thucythucy Dec 24 #54
A lot of kids were "raised" by television Nittersing Dec 24 #56
Good points. thucythucy Dec 24 #58
Many Americans are lazy young_at_heart Dec 24 #33
I feel that... 2naSalit Dec 24 #59
I would also rather do those things BUT MuseRider Dec 25 #90
What you wrote echoes my feelings riverbendviewgal Dec 24 #36
athiest that does xmas traditions here Kali Dec 24 #37
The result of letting many home school their children biophile Dec 24 #38
Thinking more philosophically, there is the 14th Dalai Lama outlook Beringia Dec 24 #43
I went to high school with Hugh Downs' daughter PCIntern Dec 24 #44
"We are the weak link: deliberately undereducated and programmed by the corporate media." OldBaldy1701E Dec 24 #45
Memory is a small part - Nigrum Cattus Dec 24 #47
Even in the 70s history Figarosmom Dec 24 #49
History teachers intelpug Dec 25 #84
And he was right Figarosmom Dec 25 #85
Excellent. I would also add that somewhere along the line, "History is boring" became a LoisB Dec 24 #50
History was made boring by becoming an endless recitation of facts. malthaussen Dec 24 #69
A salient point about the band The Grass Roots EYESORE 9001 Dec 24 #52
PCIntern............ Upthevibe Dec 24 #55
In the era of "personality politics" (bad) people only want their prejudices reinforced. And they are easily tricked. usonian Dec 24 #60
You echo my thoughts... rasputin1952 Dec 24 #61
Nostalgia and its opposites Nasruddin Dec 24 #62
And assassination is becoming too common dlbell Dec 24 #63
Gotta agree with everything here... Trueblue Texan Dec 24 #71
I get the point... lonely bird Dec 24 #73
Am an American. I remember Tweedy Dec 24 #74
You speak the truth! Ziggysmom Dec 24 #75
I remember the W. Bush administration and Beck23 Dec 24 #76
I remember in the early 80s many people didnt know who their Senators were Callie1979 Dec 24 #78
It is shocking to me anyway Meowmee Dec 24 #79
I agree 200% with you! slightlv Dec 24 #80
It's not that Americans have no memory. The problem is mass media. Initech Dec 25 #82
Thank you for this. MuseRider Dec 25 #86
You better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone. Yes, our memories, like our attention spans, have shrunk down Martin68 Dec 25 #87
There is no community memory Keepthesoulalive Dec 25 #89
Rethink the idea of american amnesia Southern_gent Dec 25 #91
Disagree with almost every point PCIntern Dec 25 #93
Let's Have a Real Conversation: Disagree? Tell Me Why! Southern_gent Dec 25 #94
Because I'm busy. PCIntern Dec 25 #95
some of the best tv shows in my memory were one season or 2 seasons ones . barely got off the ground and yanked AllaN01Bear Dec 25 #92

bucolic_frolic

(47,774 posts)
2. That's all true.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:25 AM
Dec 24

Our lives are being sliced and diced by overload. I'm getting very dark vibes about Q1, 2025. Can't specify anything, don't believe it will be as dark as all that, but it persists. Dark. Darker than the sum of the parts of Project 2025, and what has been announced.

GeoWilliam750

(2,550 posts)
66. If people have not read it, I can strongly suggest reading "A Fever In The Heartland" by Timothy Egan
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 05:30 PM
Dec 24

We had a very similar situation in the 1920s. Frightening similar with the KKK.

rampartd

(1,016 posts)
5. the smothers brothers, phil donahue were superstars
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:30 AM
Dec 24

but that is more "cancel culture" than disfavor

i can probably name 1, maybe 2 from the hollywood black list

on the other hand = assassins and serial killers ...........

madaboutharry

(41,403 posts)
8. This is what I want to say...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:34 AM
Dec 24

I agree with everything you wrote here.

And also, Happy Hanukkah. Eat latkes and celebrate the Maccabees.

Wicked Blue

(6,856 posts)
9. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:35 AM
Dec 24

in George Orwell's 1984.

You are absolutely right about this collective amnesia.

It's why the fascists want to eliminate public education.

MacKasey

(1,261 posts)
10. People need to watch jeopardy
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:35 AM
Dec 24

When I was a kid, 1st grade through 8th grade I went home for lunch And watched Art Fleming on jeopardy And ate lunch. I learned a lot Watching jeopardy, And it's also good for your brain as you get older.

I used to watch it with Alex trebek But I got out of the habit which I'm gonna get back into For the new year But I think it keeps your brain alert t keeps you more knowledgeable about world.

You're absolutely right People have very short memories and don't like to get into history

The old saying about history repeating itself is, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," which is attributed to philosopher George Santayana.

Our media should not be entertainment it should be giving us the correct information and providing the history that goes behind it.









LisaM

(28,800 posts)
15. True, but Jeopardy has changed.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:46 AM
Dec 24

Last edited Tue Dec 24, 2024, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)

During the writer's strike, they showed some old Jeopardy episodes. The questions were very different. One, they skewed way more to the arts and literature. Second, I believe that it was things the contestants already knew.

The contestants now are professional trivia players. They study up on really obscure categories. They don't know these strange things by chance. They are all studying for the test, so to speak.

It's not the same at all (even though I still Iike Jeopardy). These contestants are playing for big bucks and post season tournaments. They aren't just enjoying their own general knowledge.

IbogaProject

(3,862 posts)
57. I have a friend born in the 1950s
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 02:29 PM
Dec 24

And she has claimed since the 1980s Jeopardy's "answers" (backward questions) have been steadally been declining in difficulty.

LisaM

(28,800 posts)
64. It depends on the categories.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 04:28 PM
Dec 24

Some, like opera, were harder then, I think. But now they have all kinds of categories - mostly science - where you'd only know the answers if you were in that field or if you'd studied up. A few years ago, there was a category for "Squid"!

BumRushDaShow

(144,748 posts)
34. "I went home for lunch"
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:25 PM
Dec 24

Now THAT is an anachronism nowadays.

I remember going home for lunch when I was a couple blocks from my elementary school but then that ended when I went to middle school. I don't think kids do that anymore because there are fewer and fewer parents home because they have to work (not counting the more modern trend of the remote workers).

MacKasey

(1,261 posts)
46. I lived 2 blocks from school
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:21 PM
Dec 24

It was kindergarten thru the 8th grade

Had an hour lunch

Soup and sandwich on a tray in front of the TV, Mom was home

Graduated from there in 1966

High school was in middle of town so had to bring it

BumRushDaShow

(144,748 posts)
53. I lived about 4 blocks from my original elementary school
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 02:05 PM
Dec 24

but then transferred to a different one that was about 1.2 miles away so I took the train a couple stops to the end of the line and then walked about 4 blocks down to the school. Was amazed at having lunch "at school" at that point.

La Coliniere

(1,103 posts)
65. I had the exact experience as a kid,
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 05:15 PM
Dec 24

but it was from 3rd to 8th grade that I walked home from my public school to my lunch waiting for me and the TV tuned to Jeopardy with Art Fleming. I developed the Jeopardy habit at that age and am grateful it happened. My mom would frequently remark, “my kid is so bright because of Jeopardy!” Lol. I took breaks from time to time throughout my life, but always returned to one of my favorite healthy habits. I would get so excited as a kid when I infrequently knew the question to an answer before a contestant responded. I believe it was the catalyst for me to be inquisitive about the world, as well as a lifelong learner. I appreciated your post immensely, all aspects of what you expressed. Thank you.

malthaussen

(17,805 posts)
67. Frankly, I think that is exactly the wrong approach.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 05:55 PM
Dec 24

All Jeopardy is concerned with is simple facts ("trivia" if you will), and in the US we are inundated with fact-based literature, using a very broad definition of "fact" because much of it is disinformation or downright lies. What is needed is training and practice in the art of intellectual analysis, and that is much harder to produce, not least because there are few qualified teachers. But it is also a discipline that does not lend itself to the kind of "objective" testing that was in vogue at least when I was in public school (don't know what the situation is now, as I haven't seen the inside of a public school for fifty years).

We don't need to know more facts, but we sorely need to understand how to tell what is a fact, and what facts are significant.

-- Mal

MacKasey

(1,261 posts)
70. I can appreciate your disagreement
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 06:42 PM
Dec 24

But my love of jeopardy was also about learning more and not just facts.

I would hope it would trigger people curiosity to want to learn more

Knowledge is powerful

I too have been out of high school for over 50 years

Ocelot II

(121,675 posts)
11. An interesting observation, and of course it leads to Santayana's famous remark,
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:37 AM
Dec 24

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." And so we do - both forget and repeat. Those of us of a certain age clearly remember the Vietnam war with its controversy and carnage, but that's ancient history to folks under 40 or so. Is it even taught in history classes? Would remembering it keep us out of other military quagmires? Apparently not, since Gulf War I started less than 20 years later - and well within the living memories of Vietnam veterans and perpetrators; and of course a few years later there was Gulf War II, supposedly a reaction to 9/11 but not really, which became another 10-year quagmire. Even the people who remembered Vietnam didn't remember Vietnam. Everything disappears down the memory hole.

malthaussen

(17,805 posts)
68. I frequently get posts from a group called "Old Time Baseball" in my fb feed.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 05:59 PM
Dec 24

But I have to admit, when they have stories from the 1960s, I wince a little.

Still, that was not as bad as the advertisement I got for "vintage clothes" -- in the style of the 1990s!

-- Mal

Blaukraut

(5,924 posts)
72. This is why history isn't linear, but moves in cycles
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 07:36 PM
Dec 24

Someone here on DU recommended the book The Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe. It describes the cyclical nature of our history and the 80-100 year time span when everything repeats. I bought it and am halfway through. Amazing and eye opening, even if not all experts subscribe to the same theory. It makes so much sense, though!

Response to PCIntern (Original post)

ancianita

(38,930 posts)
21. Historians are fully aware of what you both say. Which is why they become historians in the first place, and why
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:00 PM
Dec 24

they use the National Archives, the Federal Register, (auto) biographies, memoirs, personal journals/diaries, art, photography, court filings and proceedings, the Congressional Record, legislative debates, direct eyewitness testimony, live transcripts (as Bob Woodward did in War), newspaper and magazine articles, movies, music, and reliable data sources.

There are those who try to legislate the erasure of history, those who try to kill human memory through trauma/propaganda, but the truth always comes out -- about the North American indigenous holocaust, slavery, the war against women, the crimes against humanity. And so it is not those who win who get the last word on human history.

Humans who remember and write have advanced humanity for thousands of years. The digital world will never end the analog world.

This has been the season of hope for thousands of years, across continents.
Have faith in humanity. Don't lose hope.

NewHendoLib

(60,592 posts)
13. bookmarking to read later. Thank you. I rec'd it already and want to chew on a bit - and provide a respose.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:44 AM
Dec 24

KPN

(16,184 posts)
14. Yep. Another way to put it is "here and now" -- that's all Americans care about, the current
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:45 AM
Dec 24

moment. "Right now, I gotta buy Spam instead of ham or beef because that's what I can afford. Better get a new President, anybody else is better -- except that unknown woman who suddenly became black."

Merry Christmas to you, and all, as well. Seriously, take some time off and soak in the Merry! We will survive all of this and mankind eventually will come out the better for it. Right now, today, I believe that.

keep_left

(2,557 posts)
16. We also often forget when our stars are no longer with us.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:48 AM
Dec 24

Apropos, see this SNL skit about a fictitious "Alexa" device for old people, the "Echo Silver". A couple of baseball fans are unaware that Satchel Paige died in 1982. (See 0:53-1:12).

Unfortunately, it can't all be chalked up to senility. As you mention, it's often the young who are truly out-of-touch with the wider culture.

?si=-CqBRnLtAWXE15mX

Mike 03

(17,505 posts)
17. Outstanding.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:50 AM
Dec 24

While I agree with really everything you wrote, and when I think back on my high school education and wonder why I didn't grasp the enormity of the second world war, I usually come to the conclusion that my teachers were devoted to their task and did the best they could with the time they were allotted. I went to what was supposedly one of the top high schools in California at the time. But it was also a school where we "ran out of time" so we couldn't cover the Viet Nam War. Barely touched Watergate. I still have a chip on my shoulder about those oversights.

It was only after graduating from college that I took it upon myself to study the subjects that either: I was too immature to take seriously when they were taught to me, or were not sufficiently taught.

A lot of it is on us to learn history--that is what I've come to believe. So only after school do I feel I finally learned something about World War I, the Russian Revolution, the Holocaust, World War II, Watergate and Viet Nam. I still have gaping voids of ignorance! The older I get, the more famished I am for history. Even things I lived through, like the Rwanda genocide, the breakup of the Soviet Union and the wars that tore apart former Yugoslavia (gigantic events), are hard to full absorb without a lot of additional reading and pondering. History is intricate.

Anyway, love your post. Happy holidays to you and yours!

murielm99

(31,550 posts)
18. I always refer to a sense of history.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:51 AM
Dec 24

We need to give that to our children, even if it is not our own history. My children know what the Reichstag fire was. I did not experience it, but I made sure they knew what it was. There is so much they are not learning in school!

Kid Berwyn

(18,462 posts)
19. No Long-Term Memory is how bastards get the US Taxpayer on the Hook
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:52 AM
Dec 24

Last edited Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:26 PM - Edit history (1)

First off: Absolutely agree about the importance of memory and history to democracy. As a former newspaperman, I don't completely blame the media -- more its ownership -- but include a number of educators both public and private and too many parents for breeding and then raising idiots.

Like Crime, Ignorance Pays. Two cases:

Neil "Silverado" Bush should still be busting rocks in Leavenworth. The S&L Crisis was a disaster for the whole country...

Know your BFEE: They Looted Your Nation’s S&Ls for Power and Profit

But it was a practice run for the Banking Crisis...

Know your BFEE: Phil Gramm, the Meyer Lansky of the War Party, Set-Up the Biggest Bank Heist Ever.

"Control Fraud" is the term Edwin Black coined to describe what happens when the crooks buy the bank they plan to rob. Of course, no one who stole the money had to put it back. That privilege was given to the US Taxpayer.

Know your BFEE: Goldmine Sacked or The Best Way to Rob a Bank Is to Own One

Uniting both the worlds of business and government are the professional criminal class known as the GOP. How they got that way, paperwork and making sure it never does anything but mark them as anything but the owners:



George Bush Takes Charge: The Uses of ‘Counter-Terrorism’

By Christopher Simpson
Covert Action Quarterly 58

A paper trail of declassified documents from the Reagan‑Bush era yields valuable information on how counter‑terrorism provided a powerful mechanism for solidifying Bush's power base and launching a broad range of national security initiatives.

During the Reagan years, George Bush used "crisis management" and "counter‑terrorism" as vehicles for running key parts of the clandestine side of the US government.

Bush proved especially adept at plausible denial. Some measure of his skill in avoiding responsibility can be taken from the fact that even after the Iran‑Contra affair blew the Reagan administration apart, Bush went on to become the "foreign policy president," while CIA Director William Casey, by then conveniently dead, took most of the blame for a number of covert foreign policy debacles that Bush had set in motion.

The trail of National Security Decision Directives (NSDDS) left by the Reagan administration begins to tell the story. True, much remains classified, and still more was never committed to paper in the first place. Even so, the main picture is clear: As vice president, George Bush was at the center of secret wars, political murders, and America's convoluted oil politics in the Middle East.

SNIP...

Reagan and the NSC also used NSDDs to settle conflicts among security agencies over bureaucratic turf and lines of command. It is through that prism that we see the first glimmers of Vice President Bush's role in clandestine operations during the 1980s.

SNIP...

NSDD 159. MANAGEMENT OF U.S. COVERT OPERATIONS, (TOP SECRET/VEIL‑SENSITIVE), JAN. 18,1985

The Reagan administration's commitment to significantly expand covert operations had been clear since before the 1980 election. How such operations were actually to be managed from day to day, however, was considerably less certain. The management problem became particularly knotty owing to legal requirements to notify congressional intelligence oversight committees of covert operations, on the one hand, and the tacitly accepted presidential mandate to deceive those same committees concerning sensitive operations such as the Contra war in Nicaragua, on the other.

The solution attempted in NSDD 159 was to establish a small coordinating committee headed by Vice President George Bush through which all information concerning US covert operations was to be funneled. The order also established a category of top secret information known as Veil, to be used exclusively for managing records pertaining to covert operations.

The system was designed to keep circulation of written records to an absolute minimum while at the same time ensuring that the vice president retained the ability to coordinate US covert operations with the administration's overt diplomacy and propaganda.

Only eight copies of NSDD 159 were created. The existence of the vice president's committee was itself highly classified. The directive became public as a result of the criminal prosecutions of Oliver North, John Poindexter, and others involved in the Iran‑Contra affair, hence the designation "Exhibit A" running up the left side of the document.

CONTINUED...

CovertAction Quarterly no 58 Fall 1996 pp31-40.



So, not only is ignorance strength, it makes crime (and treason -- Hi, Donald!) pay handsomely.

ETA The Most Important Part: Happy Holidays to You, PCIntern and to ALL DU!!!!

Escurumbele

(3,654 posts)
22. To me, the key line on your post:
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:04 PM
Dec 24

"We are the weak link: deliberately undereducated and programmed by the corporate media "

You are 100% correct. This is all by design, and we allow them to do it, every time. When someone started doing that ridiculous dance on youtube (Twerking) so many people followed, now the trumpists are doing the "buffoon dance" maybe not understanding that the idiot cannot dance. I was watching the "PNC Golf Tournament" on TV, and the Lehman team did the dance every time they made a birdie.

There is a simple proof that people tend to follow, one you can test when you are driving.When approaching a red light on your car, if there are two or more lanes waiting for the green light already in line, one lane will be packed with cars, the other one is either empty or maybe one car is waiting there, everyone else followed the person who got there on the other lane, and it can be the right or left lane, it really doesn't matter, people do not discriminate, they will just follow. Test it, you will find out I am telling the truth on this.

Sympthsical

(10,411 posts)
24. There's never a magical time of remembering
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:06 PM
Dec 24

People remember what impacts them.

You mention media figures like Cronkite or David Brinkley. I'm a Millennial, but I only know of them - no experience or really any familiarity with them. They were not of my time. I remember Peter Jennings, Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather. Or, if one wants to go locally, John Drury, Mary Ann Childers, and Diane Burns from Chicago. I remember Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Sammy Sosa, Jose Conseco, etc. etc.

They were prominent in my youth, so they are prominent in my memory. We pay more attention when young and become more scattered as we age. As we get older, our brains, our minds, and our priorities becomes more overstuffed. Not only with new information, but an accumulation of the old. The new begins leaving a less indelible impression than the formative.

We tend to retain what we use. People who do not live and breathe politics are not going to retain a wide swath of political information. (And flatly put, a lot of people who do live and breathe politics aren't great at history or remembering what happened ten or even five years ago - they just think they do. Dunning-Kruger writ internet). I have a degree in history, read a lot of history, and continue to engage in history in my daily life. So, I remember all of it. Ask me about things I learned in psychology just last year, and I might stare blankly. It just never comes up, so the mind discards.

Bemoaning that kids today don't watch black and white films would be like me asking a Boomer why they don't go to vaudeville shows. Gee, don't you like history?! Times change, tastes change, people change, and we all have our own things we enjoy doing and are interested in that is usually rooted in the environments with which we have formative experiences.

It's not an American thing. It's just a human thing.

PCIntern

(27,059 posts)
28. Ho ho ho...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:18 PM
Dec 24

As a “Boomer”, I will tell you that I watched a lot of filmed vaudeville over my lifetime and I am familiar with much of what came before me in the broadcast news world including Ed Murrow, HV Kaltenborn, Walter Winchell, Elmer Davis and others.

My generation watched and listened to a lot f what went before us. It is what was on tv and radio and what was discussed.

Sympthsical

(10,411 posts)
39. Do you know all kinds of 1880s and 90s singers as well? Popular theater actors of the Gilded Age?
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:38 PM
Dec 24

Because that's the bridge of time we're discussing. 1960 was 65 years ago. Lamenting that people aren't familiar with movies from 70 or 80 years ago is just odd. Sure, it's a shame. There's a lot of cultural richness there, but the expectation that they'll engage in it unless pointedly exposed is odd.

It's just rewarmed "Americans dumb, kids stupid - happy holidays!" Which is a bit miserable.

And we do have institutional memory. It's simply not the kind you're inured to. I can go on Reddit right now, and someone somewhere will bring up old movies, old bands, or old athletes who were relevant in their formative years. Younger readers and commenters get turned on to them. Just saw a long thread yesterday about lesser known 90s bands. I certainly know them, but a Gen Zer is unlikely to before reading the thread.

But then, you're probably unlikely to know them, too.

People seek out what things they're exposed to that interest them. You were exposed to different things and cultural history than I was than Gen Z is. So it goes. Circle of life, Simba.

intelpug

(109 posts)
83. Memory
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 02:20 AM
Dec 25

He is right though,, It's like any of the high priced seminars people pay to attend. They say most people will only retain a small percent of everything they hear at one of those things like ten percent or so if that, even educational ones, not just promotional ones. Take the promotional ones, Only a few of the attendants actually make something of it later if they follow through otherwise these things are usually just a big pep rally for most and they soon after discard what little they learned and pursue it no further

Mblaze

(432 posts)
26. I remember the Grass Roots. My band opened for them
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:13 PM
Dec 24

In Anchorage, Alaska in '67. I have to say that they really weren't all that good in a live show. Maybe a long flight into the frozen tundra tarnished their glow. 😀

PCIntern

(27,059 posts)
29. That's actually pretty cool...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:20 PM
Dec 24

I can believe they received a lot of help from the audio engineers, as almost every other group did. CSNY were awful -always. I saw them a few times, never improved. Santana on the other hand…wow.

Mblaze

(432 posts)
40. The band we opened for that sucked the most
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:40 PM
Dec 24

was Skye Saxon and the Seeds. The best was a young Charles Lloyd and the Turtles were close. And then... I enlisted in the AF to avoid being drafted because I was 1A and it was a whole new world.

BlueSpot

(976 posts)
97. I remember them too
Thu Dec 26, 2024, 01:09 AM
Dec 26

One of the first, if not the actual first, of the 45's that I get for myself was "Sooner or Later."

Mblaze

(432 posts)
99. They definitely had some hits.
Thu Dec 26, 2024, 01:17 PM
Dec 26

I was raised with a father who wouldn't allow me to listen to radio. At 13, I was a paperboy and we were "paid" with "premiums" rather than $. My first premium was an album called "Meet the Beatles". A year later, I moved to Alaska with my mother and two years after that, my band was opening for The Grassroots. Life can be a roller coaster. Hang on and have fun!

JMCKUSICK

(645 posts)
31. Let's Live ForToday
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:21 PM
Dec 24

Still can't hear that song enough.

You're right though, the names.....just drift into oblivion.
Great Post.

thucythucy

(8,781 posts)
32. Gore Vidal dubbed the US
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:22 PM
Dec 24

"the United States of Amnesia."

It doesn't help that our media--including what passes these days for journalism--is focused on click bait and sensationalism. This isn't new of course, "If it bleeds it leads" has long been a truism, especially in broadcast news. And yellow journalism is a long standing American tradition.

But in the past there were attempts to temper this. Broadcasters like Murrow and Shirer, for instance, were conscientious about trying to provide more depth to their reporting, which often landed them in trouble with their corporate masters, especially Shirer, who took no prisoners when it came to confronting Nazism. More recently, there's the example of Dan Rather and his becoming a virtual "unperson" at CBS, to the point that his reporting of the Kennedy assassination has been dumped down the memory hole at that once vaunted institution.

I see three factors at play here.

First, there is the corporate absorption of much if not all of the mass media, including newspapers. Whereas as late at the 1970s there were numerous daily newspapers and weekly news magazines owned independently--often by families with a history and stake and a pride in their reporting--we now have a few mega corporations that regard "news" as just another product, on a par with toilet paper and video games and soft drinks.

Second is the marked decline in literacy across the board, but especially among younger people. The most common complaint I received as a university instructor was that I assigned too much reading to my students. I'm talking maybe twenty to thirty pages a week. This was seen by a significant portion of my students as onerous verging on cruel. And these were university students, presumably among our society's most literate. I've had younger folks tell me, with some evident pride, how little they read. At least one of them--working in medicine--simply said, "I don't read books." And so the sad fact is that many folks today get their "news" from Facebook, Tik Tok, YouTube and other social media that are generally superficial, inaccurate, and very often downright lies. Add to this that this new technology makes it incredibly easy for a few malevolent actors--Elon Musk being a case in point--to manipulate the narrative to the extent that millions now are subject to the whims of the very few who have only their self-interest in mind.

Finally, and this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, the very nature of the new technology has had by and large a deleterious effect, especially in America. By that I mean the proliferation of smart phones has has an effect similar to that of radio in the 1930s. Radios were then relatively new, and went from being a more or less luxury item that very few owned to being a feature in almost every household. The technology itself then conferred a sort of legitimacy on those who used it--sometimes to good effect, such as FDR's "fireside chats," but far more often as a way of manipulating the public and spreading hate and disinformation. Hitler and Goebbels were masters at this, and their use of radio goes a long way to explaining their hold on the German public. Soon after coming to power the Nazis made radios available free to the public, which shows how important they considered this medium. There are numerous photos of families gathered around, staring intently at the one radio in their living room. The fact that this voice came to them via this "miracle" in technology, something so new and startling, conferred on it an added and by and large unquestioned legitimacy. This was often done at the very edges of consciousness, that is to say people were by and large unaware of the effect the nature of the technology had on molding their beliefs.

I think we're now seeing the same phenomenon with the rapid proliferation of smart phones. The technology itself--this hand held instrument pumping images and sound direct to the individual user--confers a credibility to what is seen and heard that other media conduits can't match. This is by and large unacknowledged, unconscious, but prevalent among users. Add to this how the technology is inherently alienating and anti-social, consumed not in groups--like the old newsreels for instance--by almost entirely individual by individual. Then too there is the inherently seductive nature of moving images linked with sound, and we now have a medium that is reshaping our political culture in ways difficult to measure and well-nigh--for the present anyway--impossible to counter.

Radio of course still plays a role, and as it's mostly owned by the right, its impact by and large is still deleterious. But it has now been superseded by hand held visual devices that hold a fascination with the technology itself not seen since the 1930s.

And as in the 1930s, it seems this fascination bodes little that is good in the coming decade.

I apologize for being so long winded.

Best wishes to you and yours,

Thucy.

thucythucy

(8,781 posts)
54. TV obviously also had an impact,
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 02:06 PM
Dec 24

perhaps best seen with the Kennedy/Nixon debate of 1960, and earlier than that the McCarthy/Army hearings of 1954. Then too the role of TV ads can't be ignored. Certainly with the advent of TV our politics became more visual, for good or ill. Perhaps its finest hour was during the Vietnam War, when for the first time relatively uncensored depictions of the reality of warfare were disseminated. The resulting public skepticism about American involvement led to a backlash, where we now have "embedded" journalists whose content is strictly controlled by the military powers that be.

Even so, for some reason I don't think the technology itself gave TV the same degree of legitimacy to its content as radio in the 1930s, and smart phones today. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps because people were already familiar, through radio, with the idea of broadcast media, and so TV was seen as only the visual extension of what was already quite familiar. Then too, one of the things that make today's smart phones so different is their portability, giving them a much more personal feel than TV, and thus making the technology that much more pervasive and different from previous visual media.

But really, I can't say for sure why TV seems--to my mind at least--not to have had the same tectonic effect on our political culture as radio and smart phones. And I could be wrong about that--perhaps TV did have that impact, conveying an almost unquestioned legitimacy to its users, and I'm just not seeing it. But looking at the history, I just don't see TV engendering same sort of quantum leap, the same enormous qualitative difference in our politics that radio in its first decade and smart phones today have made.

On the other hand, the late 1950s and the decade of the '60s were a definite turning point in our politics, which is also when television became so very prevalent. I'll have to think about this some more--these posts here being a sort of first draft for my analysis, such as it is.

Anyway, thanks for commenting, and best wishes to you and yours.



Nittersing

(6,944 posts)
56. A lot of kids were "raised" by television
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 02:25 PM
Dec 24

We were the first generation that didn't have to entertain itself. (I was born in 54)

Mom used to read 4-5 books a week. Both parents played musical instruments and it was not unheard of for Mom to sit at the piano and the whole family would join in singing.

We've gone from living reality to watching "reality."

From participants to observers.

young_at_heart

(3,868 posts)
33. Many Americans are lazy
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:24 PM
Dec 24

They would rather spend their time having fun, watching TV, playing video games, etc. They literally can't be bothered!

2naSalit

(93,822 posts)
59. I feel that...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 02:38 PM
Dec 24

It was advertising on radio and teevee that conditioned the masses to seek out everything that gave them the convenience of having time to be entertained. It was one of the most important things, to be entertained, a sign of wealth to have to time for it. So it becomes the gold standard, entertainment and all of its trappings.

This is only a portion of a massive social ill that is being ignored.

MuseRider

(34,420 posts)
90. I would also rather do those things BUT
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 11:10 AM
Dec 25

WE know what that brings. We certainly did not get to the high points by picking our noses and watching Hee Haw. Work was not shunned it was appreciated. It kept us busy and our brains sharper than doing nothing and we KNEW it. Learning was fun and we knew it would bring us good things. Later we learned that there was a place for fun but to live we had to work to keep things up and running. Like to eat? When your sister closes up that venue there is little else to do but starve OR get loaded.

I just buried a close family member who was only 3 years younger than me. He lived the life of drink and drugs but always had some kind of job when not in jail. He never took anything serious and could never be swayed or employed for long. I never could figure out how he got that way until the drink and drugs came in, then I knew. How he got that way with the drink and drugs is a mystery to me still.

Perhaps all that corny stuff those of us growing up in the 50's was not as corny as we thought.

Touch down every morning - ten times, not just now and then.
Give that chicken fat bat to the chicken
And don't be chicken again
No. Don't be chicken again.............

riverbendviewgal

(4,334 posts)
36. What you wrote echoes my feelings
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:31 PM
Dec 24

I could sense this in high school. I went thru the Cuban missile crisis watching cronkite and our neigbor crying what is happening in Cuba while my mother could not understand the dire circumstances . She wanted to go shopping.

I was the only one in the family who watched world news. My dad read sports and obituaries., my mother read the fashion ads and Hollywood gossip. I hid in the library.

I left America at age 21. No regrets.

Kali

(55,911 posts)
37. athiest that does xmas traditions here
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:35 PM
Dec 24

Season's Greetings to you too. (also looks like this isn't sunk, it was on home page when I logged on)

biophile

(477 posts)
38. The result of letting many home school their children
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 12:36 PM
Dec 24

And a general dumbing down in education, both parochial and public/secular. Social media and TV require short attention spans.
The MAGATS will get what they deserve. The rest of us will get what we don’t deserve.

Beringia

(4,691 posts)
43. Thinking more philosophically, there is the 14th Dalai Lama outlook
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:01 PM
Dec 24

We are moving very fast now with technology, but I believe we will find harmony at some point worldwide

I am not a big fan of history, other than personal stories that people share. The only real history that I remember from high school was about the Nazis and they drilled that into us

Here are the Dalai Lama's words
Also, for thousands of years people believed that only an authoritarian organization employing rigid disciplinary methods could govern human society. However, people have an innate desire for freedom and democracy, and these two forces have been in conflict. Today, it is clear which has won. The emergence of nonviolent "people's power" movements have shown indisputably that the human race can neither tolerate nor function properly under the rule of tyranny. This recognition represents remarkable progress.

https://www3.gmu.edu/programs/icar/ijps/vol7_1/Lama.htm

His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is eighty-nine years of age. He has been living in exile since 1959. He assures his followers that he will live for several more years, possibly until he is 113

“Just as I cultivate an altruistic intention, I’ve had dreams about living long. In one dream I was climbing steps, 13 steps, which I interpreted to relate to the prediction that I could live to the age of 113”—applause rippled across the audience. “Since the time of Gendun Drup, the Dalai Lamas have had close relations with Palden Lhamo. I had a dream in which she told me I’d live to be 110”—there was more applause. “Meanwhile, Trulshik Rinpoché requested me to live as long as Thangtong Gyalpo. He is said to have lived until he was 125; may I do so too.

https://tibet.net/his-holiness-the-dalai-lama-reassures-once-again-to-live-over-113-years/



PCIntern

(27,059 posts)
44. I went to high school with Hugh Downs' daughter
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:08 PM
Dec 24

who became a great friend and I believe, confidante of the Dalai Lama. We were very impressed.

OldBaldy1701E

(6,720 posts)
45. "We are the weak link: deliberately undereducated and programmed by the corporate media."
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:08 PM
Dec 24

Everything you said is true. And, everything you mentioned is either a direct of indirect symptom of a society that has embraced the worship of unfettered capitalism. They are literally living their own deaths at the hands of oligarchs who could care less until there are no more workers. Then, you will see some Terminator-style crap start to happen in earnest. They re not worried as much about robotic A.I. yet because there are still so many people to exploit, but you watch... they now have control of the largest hedge fund in the world... us. Watch what happens now. If we don't stop ignoring the fact that it needs to be treated as a lion in a cage. You keep opening the door more and more, it eats you. You keep the door tightly closed and restrictions in place, and it becomes a show piece for the circus. That is what capitalism should be to us. Without the leash, it is a wild animal and will kill us all while we are trying to pet it.

I hope everyone has a blessed Christmas, Chanukah, Kwaanzaa and (my fave) Yule. May the spirits watch over you and keep you. May the joy you embrace in this season spill over into the new year.

Blessed Be

BaldguY

Nigrum Cattus

(241 posts)
47. Memory is a small part -
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:26 PM
Dec 24

What this & prior cycles shows is the lack of morals
from the Christian Nationalists that voted blindly. We
will see, very soon, the extent they will try to go with
their "end times" BS.

Figarosmom

(3,579 posts)
49. Even in the 70s history
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:50 PM
Dec 24

Was skimmed not taught. Now days it's just completely rewritten and forgotten.

It wasn't till college I had a history class. And that was Art History. What was happening outside of art was also taught as influences on the art. And man that was eye opening. Man has been going through the same struggles since the dawn of civilization.

As for the example of The grassroots: I do post them and other bands through the years that I don't hear on ," classic rock" or "oldies" stations on the radio. They only play certain groups and the same old songs that were real mainstream. I post them in music appreciation so the young people here will hear them. And your point taken..
But that is also part of marketing. Planned obsolescence so the masses will replace evengood stuff. The old thing might still work perfectly but you need the new. And to make things seem fresh and new the stuff that the "new" is copying must be forgotten.

As for the term " low- down," this song is from the 30s ( and likely even before that) but your friend would think it's from 1993 since it was finally recorded then by a major studio. I've seen the phrase used in print as far back as the 1800s.

?si=WfEX2Qd2HOVUYZ8J

This time in our history I do think the people fucked up royally.


For now I'm just going to

?si=ZpO-He1pEsZjaWWv

As my Japanese Grand daughter would say " Happy Festivus"


intelpug

(109 posts)
84. History teachers
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 02:43 AM
Dec 25

In my high school we had two world history teachers. One was a man the other a woman. Everybody dreaded getting the guy because he was really tough , lot's of kids didn't pass his class and it was required. This was in the last of the seventies into the early eighties, The guy was actually living history as every now and then he would open his shirt to show the scar from a bullet wound he had gotten on Guadalcanal. Because of his life experience he was a very demanding tough teacher since he believed we should not be ignorant of what went on before us and the sacrifices made by Americans before our time. I aced his class because I was interested where lot's of kids were not

Figarosmom

(3,579 posts)
85. And he was right
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 02:48 AM
Dec 25

My history teacher in high school called me his little Sophia because he thought I looked like a younger Sophia Loren. That's how serious he took teaching history.

LoisB

(9,032 posts)
50. Excellent. I would also add that somewhere along the line, "History is boring" became a
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:54 PM
Dec 24

theme. In reality, it is the most interesting subject (at least to me). And a Happy Holidays to you.

We live in an interesting time.

malthaussen

(17,805 posts)
69. History was made boring by becoming an endless recitation of facts.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 06:19 PM
Dec 24

Facts taken with no context are dry and boring. And pretty useless. It matters not if you know the date of the Battle of Waterloo yet don't know why it mattered. In public school "Social Studies" classes, at least when I was in school, why things mattered was never in the syllabus. Because that's information that can't be graded by an optical computer on a "true/false" basis.

-- Mal

EYESORE 9001

(27,651 posts)
52. A salient point about the band The Grass Roots
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 01:58 PM
Dec 24

What bands or musical acts will be remembered from the early 2000s onward? My interest in current music began to wane around then, and I doubt many will remember the names of bands like Artic Monkeys some 50 years hence. I listen occasionally to what is touted as ‘university rock’ and find it bland and homogenous from one song to the next. Just wait until AI-generated music becomes all the rage. Better than the real artists!

Upthevibe

(9,296 posts)
55. PCIntern............
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 02:11 PM
Dec 24

Thank you for a well thought out summary.

I feel like it's an absolute curse that I've been a political junkie since the sElection of 2000. And even before that, I was raised by two civil-rights activists (my parents). Consequently, my siblings (two are gone but my wonderful sister's still here- eight years older than I) and I have marched, volunteered, etc. for most of our lives.

It's just hard to wrap my head around the fact that people simply don't remember or don't care about real events! And here we are.

usonian

(14,896 posts)
60. In the era of "personality politics" (bad) people only want their prejudices reinforced. And they are easily tricked.
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 03:01 PM
Dec 24

Fascist playbook. In one pic:



You left out Festivus!
Cheers.

rasputin1952

(83,261 posts)
61. You echo my thoughts...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 03:27 PM
Dec 24

From which I wrote many years ago, albeit far more eloquently than I.

History does not repeat itself, but the echoes are there for those who listen.

I have been disturbed for decades by the downgrading of History. Americans seem to have the attention span of fruit flies.
There are many exceptional B&W movies (my favorite is Casablanca, Ingrid Bergman never needed to speak a line, her face told us everything).

Most recently, two nights ago, I saw a 1930's documentary on Mussolini. You'd have to be a complete moron not to see the parallels between him and DJT. It looks almost comical, but then again, so does DJT. I wonder if he'll try to get out of the country and receive the same fate as El Duce'?

I grew up in the NYC Public School System during the 50s. In the 3rd Grade, we were learning Civics. I cannot count the times I've had young people listen to me when I explain "the system". The hard part is getting them away from "screen time". They get it, but you have to break through the barrier that has been erected.

Fare thee well my friend. Keep up the good work!

Nasruddin

(879 posts)
62. Nostalgia and its opposites
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 03:49 PM
Dec 24

Something similar happens to landscapes, at least in California & probably other places with rapid development.
Buildings and landscape just disappear ... replaced by something else. You just don't quite have any anchor for the memory of what was there, nobody remembers or cares (& why should they, a good question in any event). What business was there before? What was on that corner before this thing was built? Were there wetlands here before this salt pond (or a salt pond before these wetlands)?

One thing I have noticed is nostalgi-fication. A lot of people express the feeling that they're living in some fallen world, like things were so much better a few years or fifty years or centuries ago. I can't say it is or isn't true for some individual but ... it does seem like selective memory and motivated reasoning.

I read a disturbing book a while back, sort of an opposite facet to nostalgia
https://web.archive.org/web/20170902234845/http://chuckklostermanauthor.com/books/but-what-if-were-wrong-tr/but-what-if-were-wrong-hc
"But What If We're Wrong?" is how to/how would we look at the world of today from some point in the distant future. What would survive? What would look important? What would still be important? It doesn't really take into account the sentiment of the OP but it is an interesting addition.

dlbell

(27 posts)
63. And assassination is becoming too common
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 04:24 PM
Dec 24

The book "The Plotters" by Un-su Kim really opened my eyes to the increased use of assassination these days.

Originally, dictators would simply order the military to kill someone causing problems but once a country becomes a democracy, leaders use outside assassins. It keeps the deaths at arms length from them. And assassination has become a profession onto itself. Many are ex-military so they know what they're doing.

Russia's favourite method is defenestration - throwing someone out of a window. Crude, effective and cheap. Making a body completely disappear though is a much more complicated (and expensive) assignment.

Now, big businesses seem to have caught on to this method of dealing with 'problems'. Is it a coincidence that two whistle blowers from Boeing died lately? One from a car accident after he testified to Congress(?) and the second one from suicide the day before he was set to testify. Deaths like these are actually becoming common. Which is frightening.

Read Un-su Kim's book and you'll start to question any and all suspicious deaths. And be prepared for more of them after January.







Trueblue Texan

(3,064 posts)
71. Gotta agree with everything here...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 06:51 PM
Dec 24

The only comfort I have is knowing that some folks just have to learn the hard way. They will learn. Many will suffer unnecessarily, but they will learn. Maybe humanity will survive. Maybe not.

lonely bird

(1,979 posts)
73. I get the point...
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 07:38 PM
Dec 24

That being said the issues, for me, revolve around what I and, I am sure, others call theomythology. The civic mythologies of the country raised to the status of theological dogma. Any discussion which is in opposition to the dogma is deemed “anti-American”. Added into this are the concepts of complicated vs complex. Taking apart a car engine or transmission is complicated. My brother-in-law split his tractor in order to repair its transmission. He had never done anything like that before but he watched videos and meticulously catalogued where each part went. It was complicated. It was not complex.

Complexity, for me, involves uncertainty, the condition that Rumsfeld was laughed at when he said it. I laughed at him too. But he stated something that is true. Perhaps it is the step before karma hits when one makes a decision on a course of action. Karma or the law of unintended consequences. The issues we face are complex. They always have been. We have managed to muddle our way through them with some degree of success and not a few failures.

But at the core of the problem solving processes used are some complexities which hinder our problem solving. Of course every generation to a degree thinks that they are unique. It is likely through most of human history this was not the case. The generations were not much different than those who went before. The invention of the printing press followed by the explosion of science/mathematics and then the Industrial Revolution and so on moved technology and accessibility of information forward at speeds undreamed of. Postman, Huxley and Orwell feared what would happen if government was able to control the man-created “God in the Machine”. Their warnings were prescient but misplaced. Government has always been a tool for imposing organization on society. Many times government was and is used for oppression. Other times it is not. Our current situation is not the fault of government because the concept of government itself, being a tool, has no inherent morality or immorality. The only morality imposed upon government is that of men. The morality government is now being injected with is the morality of wealth/power. Heinlein wrote in Citizen of the Galaxy that people will do strange things for money but they will do stranger things yet for power over money.

We know that institutional memory which doesn’t exist as human memory but is rather a belief in the creation of institutions that both establish freedom but also demand responsibility is critical to the success of a society. Imo, the USSR failed because by the time of Brezhnev et al the belief could no longer be supported. It eventually collapsed of its own weight. The same is likely true of the PRC as time progresses.

Here, we are seeing our own slow-moving collapse. All of the agitprop used is designed to provide simplistic solutions to complicated and also complex problems. This is because of one truly complex problem: emotional and psychological growth lags behind technological growth. The more information inundates humans at greater speed the more many will be drawn to the simplistic solutions of the charlatan.

This all allows for wealth/power to increase its hold while itself is more and more unleashed.

We allow what we worship to become that which rules us.

Sorry for rambling.

Tweedy

(1,231 posts)
74. Am an American. I remember
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 07:48 PM
Dec 24

I think some people have a kind of post Covid amnesia that comes from a strong desire to declare that the whole pandemic was nonsense (what happens then to those we lost?)

There is also an entire industry of wing-nuttery dedicated to spreading that amnesia while marinating the amnesiacs in anxiety and panic.

Perhaps this is done to sell us more garbage?

Covid was a highly traumatic event. A lot of people would like to ostrich it out of sight.

Beck23

(273 posts)
76. I remember the W. Bush administration and
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 09:03 PM
Dec 24

.... I was in shock the whole time, beginning with the shutdown of voting in Florida and having the Supreme Court elect the president. After 9/11 people lost their jobs if they were from the Middle East. Phil Donahue lost his TV show because he opposed the Iraq war. Joe Wilson went to Niger to prove that Sadam had never bought 'yellow cake' (uranium) from Niger. Bush punished him by outing his wife, Valerie Plame, as a CIA agent. That ended her career. Bush had evangelicals in Africa teaching the people that abstinence was the cure for AIDS, even if you were married. No mention of condoms.

Just a preview of what's to come.


Callie1979

(342 posts)
78. I remember in the early 80s many people didnt know who their Senators were
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 09:59 PM
Dec 24

Some didnt know their governor.
I dont think its a new thing

Meowmee

(6,267 posts)
79. It is shocking to me anyway
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 10:35 PM
Dec 24

How much the capacity for attention span has degraded in the vast majority of people. The push to always be moving forward has become ridiculous. To the point that I remember after the 2016 election, I think it was only not even a year after, that people were saying that it was a very long time ago l😹😹

I think in part, for some anyway, it may have something to do with the harshness and stresses of life here. Especially in the past few years. People are also faced with a daily onslaught of constant news of all sorts. It’s hard to keep track of it if you follow it at all.

My history classes were excellent for the most part.

As a philosopher said, “those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”. While it may not be true in all cases I think it still holds a lot of weight.

slightlv

(4,518 posts)
80. I agree 200% with you!
Tue Dec 24, 2024, 11:47 PM
Dec 24

But we have and have not had any longer term memory for decades. Too much stupid information overload. Can't sort out true from false, so they believe everything that feels right to them.

We also have no individuated culture. Thr Suptemicists keep screaming about immigrants replacing our culture, but every single one of us came here from somewhere else, snd brought the old sod culture with us. Everything from xmas to Halloween is based I other cultures... other religions. These nazi idiots are just too stupid to see it. If America has any kind of culture, im ashamed to say, it's a gun and violence culture. And. In my opinion, that needs to be stamped out no matter what the cost.

Initech

(102,661 posts)
82. It's not that Americans have no memory. The problem is mass media.
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 12:26 AM
Dec 25

Since the advent of Rush Limbaugh and Jimmy Swaggart, and mass media consolidation, people have been tricked into voting against their best interests time and time again. It's the media - whether it's cable TV (Fox, Newsmax) or social media (X, Facebook, etc).The media is corrupt AF and they are only getting more corrupt.

MuseRider

(34,420 posts)
86. Thank you for this.
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 10:47 AM
Dec 25

It is so spot on.

I have struggled to figure it out, got parts of it and gave up not in frustration but in fear.

We struggled to send our kids to private school because the school system they were supposed to go to did not get their books in time for school so they said they were just going to let their teachers do what they could and learning to read or learning basic math etc.would come later, maybe the second half of the school year.

Teachers that do their best but do not make noise about this are as bad as those who skim over and spend the rest of their time doing "art"....art is important but what I mean is just sitting down to color and never even learning about the craft or those who were masters.

You are right, nothing really matters. Some day soon, and probably, already they will be running things that have dire consequences when not understood. Just punching *this* button will not be enough or everything.

Martin68

(24,780 posts)
87. You better start swimmin' or you'll sink like a stone. Yes, our memories, like our attention spans, have shrunk down
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 11:04 AM
Dec 25

to almost nothing. I've long thought that every American high school student should take a substantial course in modern American History, starting around 1925. I had two American History classes in school (before college), and both spent too much time assembling the mythology of Columbus, the Pilgrims and Manifest Destiny. There was never time left to learn anything about what led to WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, etc.

That said, we could all have benefitted from a true history of the settling and expansion of what is now the U.S., and the parts immigration, labor, and slavery played in making the country what it is today. Conservatives are still working to keep the blinkers on and attribute some version of "noble" capitalism for what made us a great nation, excluding all the crimes that led us to where we are now.

Keepthesoulalive

(837 posts)
89. There is no community memory
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 11:05 AM
Dec 25

People move around for jobs which disconnects them from extended family. You reinvent yourself but how and why. What people do remember are large tragic events, World War Two, the Great Depression,
Nine eleven and the civil war, which we are still fighting today. Children today don’t want to be teachers or other service jobs, they want to be influencers. Things may be very different in 4 years, we will have to wait and see.

Southern_gent

(28 posts)
91. Rethink the idea of american amnesia
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 11:18 AM
Dec 25

While I respect the effort to highlight societal shortcomings, I’d like to push back on the bleak picture painted in this post about America’s “amnesia” and supposed lack of historical awareness. The argument presented seems to overgeneralize and dismiss the complexities of how history and memory operate in modern society.

First, the claim that Americans have no institutional or national memory ignores the many ways history is actively preserved and celebrated. Countless museums, documentaries, podcasts, and even social media channels are devoted to educating the public about historical events, figures, and cultural milestones. Platforms like PBS, Ken Burns documentaries, and educational YouTube channels have brought history to audiences in accessible and engaging ways. Historical societies, reenactments, and civic programs continue to keep the past alive for those willing to engage.

The example of forgotten broadcasters or sports players seems more like a critique of the fleeting nature of fame rather than evidence of societal amnesia. Media and entertainment have always been about the “now,” but this doesn’t mean history is ignored. In fact, Hall of Fames, retrospectives, and anniversaries frequently honor the achievements of athletes, broadcasters, and artists. The issue isn’t that these figures are forgotten but that the constant influx of new information and cultural figures makes it impractical to dwell too long on any one moment in history.

Regarding the younger generation’s supposed ignorance: It’s a common refrain across generations to claim that “kids these days” lack historical awareness, yet studies show that many young people are highly engaged in social and political issues. Platforms like TikTok and Instagram are full of creators educating their peers on history, social justice, and civics in ways that resonate with them. While it’s true that traditional history education may need improvement, young people today have access to more information than any generation before them—and they’re using it.

The broader claim that “we are reliving the 1930s” and heading toward disaster feels alarmist and dismissive of the progress society has made. While challenges exist, it’s also true that we’ve learned valuable lessons from history. For example, the global response to pandemics, awareness of climate change, and international efforts to curb authoritarianism all demonstrate that historical lessons are being applied in real time.

Lastly, the pessimistic conclusion that Americans are “deliberately undereducated and programmed by corporate media” feels overly cynical and conspiratorial. While media and education systems can always improve, individuals have agency and responsibility to seek out knowledge. Many Americans do exactly that, through books, documentaries, and independent research.

In short, history is alive and well for those who care to engage with it. While there’s always room for improvement in education and media, dismissing an entire nation as amnesiac and doomed ignores the evidence of resilience, curiosity, and progress that exists all around us. Instead of focusing on what’s lost, perhaps we should focus on what we can still build.

PCIntern

(27,059 posts)
93. Disagree with almost every point
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 11:26 AM
Dec 25

But you are more than entitled to your opinion.

Happy Holidays.

Southern_gent

(28 posts)
94. Let's Have a Real Conversation: Disagree? Tell Me Why!
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 12:19 PM
Dec 25

Disagree with almost every point” is a fair starting place, but if you’re going to dismiss nearly everything I said, it would be helpful to know why. Simply saying “I disagree” without elaboration doesn’t move the conversation forward—it just leaves me guessing what you’re taking issue with.

Do you disagree that history is actively preserved through museums, documentaries, and online platforms? Are you arguing that broadcasters and athletes should hold the same cultural significance as world-changing events or historical figures? Or do you genuinely believe that younger generations are clueless about history despite the many ways they engage with it on modern platforms?

If there’s a specific point you’d like to address, let’s hear it. I’m open to a real discussion, but blanket disagreement without substance doesn’t challenge anything I wrote—it just avoids the debate entirely. Let’s dig into the details, and I’m happy to engage thoughtfully.

AllaN01Bear

(23,451 posts)
92. some of the best tv shows in my memory were one season or 2 seasons ones . barely got off the ground and yanked
Wed Dec 25, 2024, 11:25 AM
Dec 25

tom brokov was removed because he was critical of one of the shrubs .
happy hollidaze to evryone . and that covers everyone .

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