An attempted mind fuck ( otherwise known as psyops)

[nadinbrzezinski]

Last edited Wed Jun 26, 2013, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

As a preface...remember the Plame Leak? Who among you remembers posting in yahoo groups, usenet (the remnants) or AOL boards?

I did, silly me. One of the things that was done is that within 12 hours (talking points travel fast) we had a single line from our conservative drones...it was not about Chenney, but Valerie Plame. It was not about the leaked NOC, but the persona, the victim of the leak. Chenney quickly disappeared...it did not matter what was presented...that did not matter.

Her life was torn to shreds and somebody who served the country loyally became enemy of the state number one. Charges were even talked about but I guess it's harder to charge somebody like her. It was...if you were into the study of psyops, textbook. (Why she said this was coming early in this.)

There was another thing done. Find those who did not buy the hook line and sinker, and attack their credibility. Some folks were driven from posting. Stalking was also the thing. It was never to be allowed to be about what it was...a leak coming from the office of the Vice President. And when one loyal staffer finally fell on his sword, nobody talked of the leaker itself.

Mission accomplished.

I hate to say it, but we have something similar at play here. It must be frustrating since we are refusing to take the bait...he's ugly, he voted for Ron Paul...obviously he is an unamerican fool...case closed.


Suffice to say...it's not about the person, but what was revealed. The fury of the attacks are prima fascia evidence that these leaks matter, and we should pay attention to what was leaked.

I used to think that only Republicans could be this thick to mind fucks. Not any more... Partisans are highly susceptible to them. And there is a reason the military has troops that specialize in mind fuck 101. Suffice it to say...at this point the gulf separating us is galactic, and part of it...is the use of some of those same techniques.

Suffice it to say, once again, it does not matter if Edward Snowden is the worst person ever....like Valerie Plame, it's not about them, but what was revealed. Try as hard as you will, some of us are aware of these techniques.

Oh and like those partisans back then...they were not part of a conspiracy...mind fuck 101 is partly human nature. And the echoes of that long hot summer are in the here and now.

What is left, well...kids some of us get it, and will continue to point it out...it is about what was leaked...some of us don't. The differences in the psychological make up are actually matter of academic research.

The other thing that is left...well...

[backscatter712]

1. There's a reason why I have a shitload of hidden posts as of late...

Because this shit is happening right here!

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Me too

[dogknob]

15. "hero worship"

For a long, long, LONG time now... every time I hear someone say that, I know they are dodging the facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Yup

It's a way to make it about you, not the issue.

haven't seen you in a while. Congrats on this morning's court decisions

[dogknob]

28. Busy in other ways...

...can't get much of a musical discussion going on around here without MSM approval, but I'm doing stuff like songs about Sandra Day O'Connor's "regret." http://www.democraticunderground.com/1035818

[calikid]

61. And me too.

[patrice]

3. I was here. I remember it being almost entirely a matter of the content of the leak. Plame herself

was practically a hermit during most of it.

Yeah, Joe Wilson was out and about a bit complaining and justly so about what happened to both of them, so that was personal in part, but it was also about HOW, precisely in what manner, it was possible for the Iraq Group to do that to anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. But something very similar is happening now

[patrice]

10. Sorry, guess I'm not following closely enough. I'm in the middle of a bunch of stuff &

trying, also, for health reasons not to spend so much time sitting here, though I must admit, what's happening is almost absolutely fascinating.

[Whisp]

4. The other thing that is left are the insults...

they will be coming fast and furious now that the hero Snowden appears to be more of a libertarian jerkoff selfish drick.

and the hero worshippers are getting antsy and pissed that their little faery tale story wasn't as fantasical as they were hoping. For so long. Hoping for collapses and destruction and ripping and tearing down.

[sabrina 1]

21. He doesn't matter. What has been revealed is shocking and that will remain the focus of those

who are not going to be distracted by trivia. I remember what the OP is talking about having spent time on similar forums. And because of that past experience, people are no longer as susceptible to the distractions.

Btw, they always, in an attempt to undermine those very sincere people who knew what had been done to Valerie Plame was treason, used words like 'hero' fans' 'high school cheerleaders', that was for the men. The women were in 'love with Wilson' etc etc .But never, ever did they dare to discuss the actual core of the issues, because they couldn't. Or because in some cases, and we know this now for sure, it was not their job.

Time has passed since then, and we will keep seeing 'OMG, Snowden picked his nose and most people will ignore the trivia.

I always wondered how much money HB Gary expected to be paid for their proposal to 'smear blogger, Glenn Greenwald' and who got the contract after they were exposed. Because someone did.

[sulphurdunn]

130. A statement posited as fact

can be either proven or disproven. It bears no logical relationship to the one who posited it. I just can't understand what is so hard to grasp about that. Hate Snowden all you want. Just don't confuse him with his argument.

[patrice]

6. DU is a big place. One sees what one chooses to focus on. It's pretty authoritarian to generalize

about it too much.

If it is possible that not everyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist, it is also possible that not everyone who thinks Edward Snowden is a traitor hates him personally. People CAN have authentically valid reasons of their differences and if that's not possible for those who disagree with (rhetorical) you, it's not possible for you, or me, either.

[napoleon_in_rags]

9. "People CAN have authentically valid reasons of their differences"

It would be great to hear justifications for the current form of the security apparatus, explanations of why it must be the way it is. But we don't hear that, we hear "traitor", "scum", "loser".

[patrice]

19. "traitor" can be a relatively technical reference to what he did, like an "F" on a test, it doesn't

have to be personal.

Those other two words, you are correct to be angry about that kind of language. Personally, I think it is stupid, because it damages one's case by making it non-rational, ascribing a prejudiced label to something that should be more objective damages the perception of the rationale for what one is saying, however . . .

I ask you to consider the environment that we are in: the internet, most posters posting under false names. Now, if you were a Snowden advocate and wished to damage the case being presented by the Snowden opposition, wouldn't it be useful to POSE as a member of that opposition and then to insult all of the Snowden advocates and Snowden himself? VERY easily done and EXTREMELY powerful in its effect.

I'd bet most trolls are not of the obvious variety. And it's so extremely easy to disrupt rational dialogue and destroy any commonalities that different positions might discover and god forbid that anyone who disagrees with anyone else should happen to begin to value any commonality that they might authentically share.

[napoleon_in_rags]

37. You underestimate the cynicism of long term DUers!

Honestly, trolls are the expectation on DU for me, so I tune in to the people setting the tone for the narrative, like media figures. "Loser" for instance, in reference to Snowden, comes from Piers Morgan on CNN, not an anonymous troll. The other thing I do is I look at larger trends: Did Julian Assange set himself up for the rape charges, in order to shift focus away from the leaks and toward a personal focus to make himself look good? Or would Assange have preferred the focus not be on him so much on remain on the leaks? The rape charges serve to move the conversation away from the government practices Assange uncovered, just as the attacks on Snowden move the conversation away from what he uncovered.

I guess you're right in some ways though: if the purpose of the personal attacks is to sow Orwellian fear in the population, (the answer to your questions about mass surveillance of the people is do not talk about mass surveillance of the people, comrade) than its pretty effective. I just don't see any one trying to seed a productive conversation about this.

[patrice]

35. And, of course, the same could be true of Snowden opposition. They could pose here as Snowden

supporters and then insult the Snowden opposition so that the opposition feels more justified in the worst things that they think about Snowden and Snowden supporters. Again, the objective is to keep the two "different" sides from discovering anything that they might agree about or share, because that sharing would make them less dependent upon authoritarian, power hungry, leaders.

[zeemike]

60. What you are describing is the job of the shill.

the shill is not there to agree with the con man, but to divert attention away from him.
And yes they can work both side of the game

[tavalon]

109. Three card monty

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. This has nothing to do with me

This is psychology 101. This is group dynamics 101.

Have a good day though...in the ignore list. I really have no time for this...but your post, making it about me, ironically, is textbook about what I just described.

Congrats for the textbook example.

[patrice]

22. I should have broadened that reference to the rhetorical you. I will do so. nt

[siligut]

27. I am in total agreement with you regarding distraction

But would say that Patrice has written stuff that indicates she is a strong progressive and seriously, even intelligent people have difficulty understanding the intricacies of psyops.

If we can unite strong personalities, we will be so much stronger.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Perhaps...

But at this point it is also a way to avoid insulting people. Back then I wish aol,had the feature to be honest.

[siligut]

51. Yes, you can avoid irritation, but you may also miss some solid thought

Good minds sharing ideas is the goal, but due to the medium, sometimes the message may seem stark. Again, strong personalities can have an effect and that is valuable but it is common for there to be perceived friction in a medium like this.

I have appreciated Patrice's posts, she has much to offer, as do you. Though as she stated, she isn't around as much. So I am saying, while she may be weak in the psyops department, she is a strong progressive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Yeah, but over the last few years I have learned that's the best course

For all.

Though in the very recent past I removed one person from that list.

[siligut]

58. You know what is best for you

Because of the nebulous and 'woo' nature of psyops, I have found few people able or willing to acknowledge that they may be in operation. We have to know and understand them in order to combat them and certainly the RW is more advanced due to their often unethical use.

[napoleon_in_rags]

7. Maybe we should start screaming about what a bastard Snowden was for outing Plame.

Just to make people think about this.

The ad hominem attack really seems to be an easy way to manipulate people. It seems venerated in DC. The outing of Plame was personally motivated, so that security breach was acceptable, but the ideologically motivated leaks are an outrage? Its bizarre.

[MindPilot]

12. the only difference is that Snowden is libertarian

That means in DU-world that he is certainly not credible and may not even be human. There is absolutely no way a liberation could have a conscious, not in DU-world

[napoleon_in_rags]

18. I would never expect DU to support a member of LP, but choosing Cheney instead?

That's what's strange to me, these people have more of a problem with Snowden than with the Plame leaks. Do we hear journalists calling for Cheney to be shot (or Novak) back in the day for being tied to that? No.

[patrice]

25. All different kinds of people can have a conscience and still be wrong about something & it can

be an act of conscience on other people's part not to ignore it when someone is wrong. That doesn't make the wrong person a bad person, only POSSIBLY in error in a highly complex situation in this instance.

[zeemike]

68. What you said scares the shit out of me.

To divide people up in such drastic ways and make it about the evil them and the good us reminds me more of the two minute hate of 1984 than any rational world I want to live in.
I chose not to hate libertarians or tea baggers and chose not to dismiss everything they say just because they are they and I am us...if that makes me evil then so be it...I am confident in what I believe and will set them right when I can, but I refuse to treat them as non human and dismiss them out of hand...and makes it impossible for them to change...which should be our goal.

[siligut]

74. It was sarcasm, read it again

Just kind of bemoaning DU's strong bias against other parties.

[zeemike]

85. Oh shit now I see.

And I always thought myself good at understanding sarcasm too.
My apologies to Mind Pilot.

[Th1onein]

101. I don't think that libertarians and liberals are always mutually exclusive.

One can be libertarian on one issue--say, in this case, liberty. And liberal, also, on the issue of liberty. In fact, that is where libertarians and liberals meet--on the issue of liberty.

[Dragonfli]

8. "..it's not about the person, but what was revealed...pay attention to what was leaked."

Far above personalities, the information is what the people need, not just American people, but all liberty loving people affected by the consumption and secret digestion of all of OUR information.

What the whistleblowers information appears to tell us - is that the data being collected is nearly, if not all of the digital media transmitted across all the main networks.
Collected and also stored.

I submit that they are desperately trying to discredit and villainize whistleblowers because this part at least is almost certainly true - they have created the world's largest data storage facility ever dreamed of, and are feeding it with the most sophisticated Data gathering systems ever developed. I would have named it the "Panopticon Lens Data Storage Compound".

What is unknown yet is how much of our data is being accessed, how often, by how many and exactly who. Much like with the concept of the original "Panopticon" of fiction, as important as those questions are, they mean little as we now know that at any time for any mysterious (unknowable to us) reason, they (meaning government and corporate agents) may focus upon any of us and hear all our network transmitted phone calls, see all our video, read all our emails, know all our contacts, where and when we gather, what we buy, etc. and they can do it in real time as well as playback from any time in the past!

This will thus affect and guide our behaviour until the Panopticon DATA systems are dismantled and replaced with a system of reasonable collection - based on probable cause rather than the current system of universal collection and storage. They do not want this, they want it all and they are panicking because the cat is out of the bag and they must still fear that we can stop it!

On DU I have had the privilege of hearing the opinions of free citizens in Europe and other places that are directly affected by this data mining as well. They are not even offered the fig leaf promises of privacy being marketed as existing for US citizens and many are a bit "unhappy" about this to say the least. It is becoming a near GLOBAL Surveillance/Security State operated by, and profiting, a group of multinational corporations, yet paid for and built by a group of purchased governments that will use them to maintain authority over their respective countrymen.

A mating of fascism and authoritarianism joining in an orgy fueled by our liberty and our money to benefit those in authority and those that profit. They will be able to bleed us dry, and with little or no liberty, we will have no way of stopping any of it once it is fully realized.



We must not let that happen!

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yup...they must fear it can still be stopped

[dreamnightwind]

29. Excellent post

though I see no discussion of Snowden in it. Didn't you get the memo?

[marions ghost]

63. Excellent post

"fig leaf promises of privacy" -- yep, being widely marketed

[siligut]

83. We have a real good idea of the data that will be collected

But “this is more than just a data center,” says one senior intelligence official who until recently was involved with the program. The mammoth Bluffdale center will have another important and far more secret role that until now has gone unrevealed. It is also critical, he says, for breaking codes. And code-breaking is crucial, because much of the data that the center will handle—financial information, stock transactions, business deals, foreign military and diplomatic secrets, legal documents, confidential personal communications—will be heavily encrypted. According to another top official also involved with the program, the NSA made an enormous breakthrough several years ago in its ability to cryptanalyze, or break, unfathomably complex encryption systems employed by not only governments around the world but also many average computer users in the US. The upshot, according to this official: “Everybody’s a target; everybody with communication is a target.”
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1

And, if you missed it, the metadata they are collecting and storing forever will be legal to open, breakdown and analyze in 2014, due to the National Defense Authorization Act of 2014:

On May 22, 2013 the Subcommittee on Intelligence, Emerging Threats and Capabilities, one of several Armed Services Committees, met to discuss the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2014. The main subject of the hearing was Sec. 1061, otherwise known as Enhancement of Capacity of the United States Government to Analyze Captured Records. This enhancement provision of NDAA 2014 would effectively create a new intelligence agency, one with the authority to analyze information gained under the Patriot Act, FISA, and known spying programs such as PRISM.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/17070-indefinite-surveillance-say-hello-to-the-national-defense-authorization-act-of-2014

The discussion on DU is here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023057822

I agree, we must not let this happen. Any ideas on how to stop it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. We have taken the first step

The second is taking to the streets.

[siligut]

97. One of the reasons I want to keep good people on board

We really do need a plan.

[Dragonfli]

95. "Any ideas on how to stop it?" No, would that i did. I know how to slow it down however.

One can judge by their reactions to stimuli what they fear by how much they wish to derail the conversation and how "loud" the opposition..

Do all the stuff that makes them squeal the loudest. Ignore the personalities, and raise as much hell as possible regarding the abuses and potential abuses of the programs themselves, on two fronts - Within one's own country regarding how this program is in violation of the liberties assured by the documents of the country one is in; while opposing the power and potential abuse by private firms growing rich off of the implementation of excessive spying of the citizenry, these are not elected officials or clandestine operatives, they are private firms with the same access as the governments themselves, we must challenge the legality and wisdom of giving such power to multinational corporations.

Most of all do not be derailed or allow them to frame it as personalities they would vilify as evil traitors for blowing the whistle. This can not be about Snowden, G.G., Obama, or Ron Paul.

It is all about a growing corporate/government information gathering industrial complex that because of the relation of growth and profit will end with no privacy and the corrupting power of unknown government and private entities having files on everyone, imagine Hoover 100 fold with the added nuance of allowing corporations to review ones "file" as well as the modern day Hoovers.

Growth of the Surveillance/Security State is assured if we do not impede it as private entities will profit from the growth, and our governments will allow it as it also increases their authoritarian power, Left alone all we will see is the growth of this, time to jump on the gears or accept our new information overlords.

[siligut]

100. Some major Silicon Valley companies might help too

NSA Secrecy Prompts a Pushback
Source: WSJ

The secrecy shrouding the National Security Agency's collection of electronic data is coming under attack, with major Silicon Valley companies seeking to make public more information about the programs and the American Civil Liberties Union filing a lawsuit aimed at halting some of the efforts.

Google Inc. said Tuesday it had asked the U.S. government for permission to publicly report on the volume and scope of secret federal court orders that require it to hand over information about its users to federal authorities.
Google's request, made in a public letter from its chief legal officer, David Drummond, came after the government acknowledged Saturday that Internet-content companies had received secret requests under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act relating to the activities of some users.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/nsa-secrecy-prompts-pushback-005000472.html;_ylt=AjKcyxRYW_0XfBe9G7Lb6WOiuYdG;_ylu=X3oDMTNyYjh1ZDRzBG1pdANGUCBUb3AgU3RvcnkgTGVmdARwa2cDYTg4ODBmZTMtZWM5MC0zODU3LWE0NDYtNzhkODA4ZWFkZWY5BHBvcwMxBHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyA2Y1OWUwNTYwLWQzNGUtMTFlMi1iOWY2LTA0NjM4NmFmMjY1MQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTFkcW51ZGliBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3BtaA--;_ylv=3

Corporations have big voices. Microsoft and Twitter are two other companies supporting this desire for more information and oversight.

[Dragonfli]

108. They might help, but being corporations they are by definition amoral

Their responsibilities are to increase profit for shareholders not necessarily do what is right. They must feel the publicity is hurting their brands or they would not lift an eyebrow, good, we have to encourage that belief.

Perhaps if enough of the public let them know that by them giving away our information (warrant or not) they will lose customers then perhaps they will continue to apply pressure. The danger is that because their loyalty lies purely with profit and nothing else they are quite a wild card, if for instance they feel they can use this to leverage a piece of the bottomless profit machine being built they may turn on us tomorrow. The best money is spy agency money as so much of it is by design off book and the numbers are huge.

[sibelian]

115. At the risk of seeming Machiavellian, that needn't be a disadvantage.

Much of the work of the left is hampered by being the nice guy.

[Dragonfli]

129. The problem is that Corps. are Machiavellian, their efforts will always be to give themselves

the advantage while having no qualms about taking advantage of us, so unless one is powerful enough to oppose them they will fuck one over for a nickel each and every time they can.

We could try to be "more evil" and defeat them at their own game but without a few billion dollars and a bunch of congresscritters in our pocket they will simply laugh and swat us like bugs. The only power we could yield would be to boycott them and hurt their bottom line and as you know that only works if sufficient numbers join in the boycott.

[reusrename]

107. Social networks.

The exact technology that is now being directed at us (the ones who are trying to change things) can also be directed at the ones who are stopping us. They really are organized the same way we are, only they are above the law at this point. The same technology that identifies the critical members of our social networks could be used to identify the critical members of their social networks.

I believe that we can come to grips with exactly how they are thwarting our ability to organize; until then we will be unable to effect any progressive changes at all.

Here's my basic understanding of things: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3055021

[KoKo]

118. Important Point...it works to undermind average citizens ability to organize

or even to have ability to have a proper legal defense (if their lawyers are monitored).

It's already being done. It goes beyond infiltrating groups with FBI or CIA to find informants. It's now massive data collection that makes it a dragnet that catches up everything.

BTW: Your "Apples and Oranges" post at the link was an interesting read:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3055021

[HiPointDem]

131. better organized than 'we' are.

[KoKo]

124. "Private Firms & Private Contractors"...Both having access to use the information

whatever ways they want for their own purposes...not just turning it over to the NSA to use. Are they selling it to Wall Street? Multi-national Companies, Other Governments?

"Who is Watching the Watchers?"

[Dragonfli]

127. They need to discontinue such practices. We need regulations and enforcers to make them stop.

I am fairly certain that they do trade, buy and sell our information for more profit. Corporations will always do what makes them money if they are not prevented from doing so, they should be well regulated to keep them from doing such things. The problem appears to be that no one ever thought (or was paid not to think) of regulations to protect us from information theft. An even bigger problem is our government does not seem to wish to regulate anything for our benefit, corporate money is too loud in a town where money buys elections and whores are willing to prostitute legislation or lack thereof at the whims of their sugar daddies with big checks, so we are screwed.

[Mojorabbit]

99. Awesome post! nt

[woo me with science]

119. Well said! nt

[MindPilot]

14. K & R

[woo me with science]

17. K&R.....States that turn authoritarian always create a propaganda machine

to gradually take the place of the free press they purchase and systematically dismantle.

What we are observing in this country right now is nothing short of chilling. From the implementation of a spying infrastructure whose capabilities dwarf that of any totalitarian government the world has yet known, to the systematic assaults on whistleblowers and the attempted criminalization of investigative journalism itself, we are living in very scary times.

And now we also get to see, for perhaps the first time in its full flowering, the scope and depth and relentlessness of the propaganda machine they are building. It is omnipresent, down to discussion boards on the internet.

It is difficult to recognize America anymore. I hope it is still possible to save it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. It is not the first time we see this in boards.

Why I went back to the Plame Affair.

It's just more mature.



And yes, it is absolutely chilling.

One of my neighbors came here as a refugee from the USSR. She's looking for a way out. She's not young, but the two PhDs help.

[woo me with science]

43. Thank you. My wording was very poor.

I didn't mean that propaganda is new to America. We have been immersed in a Matrix of corporate messaging for a very long time through television and radio and the very structure of our communities.

But the propaganda machine, like the government's spying infrastructure, is reaching a level of depth, interactivity, and microscopic invasiveness that is truly chilling. We have reached a point well beyond government posters and radio broadcasts, to a creepy new reality in which Americans who believe they are merely having a political conversation on the internet meet immediate, relentless, swarming, and manipulative pushback to any criticism they might level at the Powers That Be.

There is an entire machine being put into place to manufacture the illusion that Americans welcome what is being done to us.

It is creepy as hell, and, when combined with awareness of the metastasizing spying and police state infrastructure, truly chilling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. That it is...and a new stage in this

[KoKo]

121. Well said "Woo." manufacturing illusion....

"..to a creepy new reality in which Americans who believe they are merely having a political conversation on the internet meet immediate, relentless, swarming, and manipulative pushback to any criticism they might level at the Powers That Be."

[sibelian]

20. I was trained long ago to see when someone is simply changing the subject.

It's the simplest possible trick in the book, and arguably the most effective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Yup, that it is.

But putting a name to it is a way to take some of it's effectiveness.

[patrice]

26. Not all changes of subject are psyops/propaganda, some of that is integrative activity that may

be interested in shared traits between "different" subjects, or related issues, a.k.a. patterns.

[dreamnightwind]

33. And you continue to miss the point

No surprise there.

[Th1onein]

103. Are those things more important than the topic at hand: the surveillance state

turned against us?

I think not.

[sibelian]

111. "simply" changing the subject, patrice.

"simply".

Aside from which, in disinformation campaigns, constructively changing the subject is often just as useful, that can be used to take the discussion sideways, away from the main thrust of the point into a network of ill-defined interdependencies, just to waste the time and mental effort of the opponent and make the subject look more complicated than it really is.

[Skidmore]

30. Snowden is not Plame

by a longshot.

[dreamnightwind]

34. You also miss the point

It has nothing to do with Snowden or Plame, that's the point.

[Skidmore]

40. We know. Its about

shouting down everyone who doesn't exactly see events or actors the same way and labelling them as un American or not concerned about any of the issues related to Snowden's adventure. Sometimes other people just might have valid points. If someone takes the time to hear your opinions, why not hear them out? You can disagree or try to convince them as to why you think they are wrong but there is no need for the ugliness and name calling and constant impugning of people's motives. I don't put people on ignore and am willing to hear people out. Do not assume that we all don't get your point or grasp the issues. Sometimes issues and context just need to be examined separately. Snowden's story is as cogent to the events he set in motion as are understanding his motives and who his fellow players are.

[dreamnightwind]

42. The issues and context are the NSA and its activities

not Snowden or Plame. But you knew that.

[Skidmore]

50. That's not what I was accused of upthread.

Or on other threads. I don't have a high opinion of the man and I think he has done more damage than good to date. He has made himself the story and the dialogue we all should be having is buried under a load of insistence that he be hailed as a hero and believed without question.

[dreamnightwind]

56. WTF?

I see no accusations directed your way.

Why have any opinion at all on Snowden, why even think about him? That in itself is the problem, it's a step down the wrong path, accepting the misdirection.

I have no quarrel with you, but I am dumb-founded by how readily people are focusing on the color of the sign, the font that was used, the placement of it, rather than the monster it is pointing at and was erected to bring attention to. That, I do have quarrel with.

[sibelian]

116. Of course he hasn't "made himself the story"

What absolute nonsense, how many fake IDs, for example, on DU would he need to generate THIS much traffic?

Clumsy attempt to de-resolve the locus of responsibility.

[sibelian]

117. Free of content.

There isn't a single sentence in that that couldn't be applied to any issue being discussed on any message board.

You wish to be perceived as you would prefer.

[Dragonfli]

98. That is exactly the point! It matters little if the personality distractions come from psyops,

personality cultism or vilification. It is really about collecting all our data, storing it, and allowing (we are not allowed to know who) the power to access information that would be private in a free society.

Once they have us discussing personalities we are not talking about the actual problem.

[dreamnightwind]

106. Yes, what you said. - nt

[KittyWampus]

32. And what was leaked, in part, was classified information to China/Russia. You want to talk about NSA

then start threads on it.

[Maedhros]

57. Leaked to a newspaper in Hong Kong.

Not to a government official.

[creeksneakers2]

71. I don't see the difference

because the government officials find out either way.

[Maedhros]

75. It's not espionage [n/t]

[Progressive dog]

36. Psyops now, but they're trying to keep the focus on the leaker

Sounds scary, kind of like a bad movie.
The messenger doesn't need to be shot, he committed suicide, his credibility is zero and moving into negative territory.

Now some can't stand the fact that the anti-government criminal Paulite is not the hero they portrayed him as. Now they just expect us to take all his claims at face value because they've been repeating them.
Psyops LOL

[Kurovski]

38. I'm glad you mentioned this.

it happens a good deal.

Nothing goes by without the powers-that-be have their immediate say and then strive to "keep their say said".

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. And control

[dreamnightwind]

41. K & R, it's a very old trick

Not sure how well this correlates, but I remember when a secret shadow government was revealed in the 80's, and the activity that revealed its existence was called Iran/Contra. This was absolutely huge, the public outing of an unelected group of men who were conducting secret wars in multiple countries, attacking labor leaders and leftists, and in direct violation of a congressional order not to fund the Nicaraguan Contras, Reagan and Bush's "freedom fighters" (they were actually state-sponsored terrorists).

So we had caught them red-handed, the country was furious about it, it was a very rare opportunity to reign in the dirty secret warriors that were not accountable to any voters anywhere.

What happened? Well, a lot of things happened, but the main thrust of it was that they sacrificed a few people, and made a hero out of Oliver North. They used North as the focal point. Media stories, newspaper articles, they often focused on him and not on the massive criminal enterprise he was a part of. Once he was the story, mission accomplished, the sheeple largely forgot about the actual problem or even believed that this 'good man' North had sacrificed greatly for the good of the country. Whoosh, the American public completely missed the ball.

It really is an old trick. Snowden might as well be nothing more than the tragic figure in Heller's Catch-22. He isn't the story, he's a sign-post pointing to the largest and most complete surveillance apparatus in human history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Catch-22

You are right, it applies here.

I remember Iran Contra. I had a rare perspective, as we debriefed victims of it in Mexico...and then got to see hearings go nowhere.

For the record Mexico and Guatemala almost went to war in 1984... And it was a side show to that

[dreamnightwind]

53. This story is way bigger than Iran-Contra

and we get distracted from it at our great peril.

The surveillance apparatus they've constructed is incompatible with a functioning Democracy, in my opinion. We won't see the full consequences of its existence for some time, perhaps never, since we will have absolutely no oversight of its use. They won't tell us, under any circumstaces, who is being extorted nor to what end. But extortion, bribery, inside information, those will be the levers of power, not elections. We'll have no way to know what is going on, and no way to fix it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Why I call this a dictablanda

But make no mistake...it's turn key tyranny.

[baldguy]

46. So, Snowden leaking secret info is *GOOD*, but Cheney leaking secret info is *BAD*.

Right. No double standard there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Try reading again

Or not...*plunk*

[frylock]

92. reading comprehension good..

fire bad!

[sibelian]

112. Correct, No double standard at all.

Assessments of these actions are of two different kinds of information being released for two entirely different purposes.

[Orsino]

113. Wrong standard.

Whether or not information is classified is a fact. Your leap to a value judgment either way is not.

Do you have a standard for what information should be, may be, should not or mst not be leaked? For classifying authorities you trust, and to what degree? Are you clear on precisely what has been leaked by Snowden?

This isn't binary arithmetic, and you may realize that nuance is possible.

[hunter]

47. Yep. Game theory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. That is part of it.

[treestar]

55. Snowden is more like Cheney in that scenario

I don't remember Plame getting insulted. Most comments on her were about how good looking she is.

[Vinnie From Indy]

59. I find the doggedness of some otherwise intelligent folks here on DU

rather bizarre. In my mind, the issues of the NSA and Edward Snowden diverged within seconds of reading the allegations. My concern about Snowden's motives is dwarfed by my concern for the 4th Amendment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Having been through the Plame affair

I find it familiar...

I don't know if that's good or bad

[LaydeeBug]

64. The bait and switch has occurred. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. I gotta give you credit for admitting it

[LaydeeBug]

67. admitting it?

???

[carolinayellowdog]

80. maybe you're being confused with someone else

haven't seen anything but honest and honorable posts from you

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. If that is the case, my apologies.

[LaydeeBug]

89. I wrote this on the matter...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023092322

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. My deep apologies

[LaydeeBug]

91. No problem. nt

[LaydeeBug]

88. Thank you carolinayellodog. That is very nice of you. nt

[deurbano]

66. Predictable:

"The personal side of taking on the NSA: emerging smears: Distractions about my past and personal life have emerged – an inevitable side effect for those who challenge the US government"

by Glenn Greenwald

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/26/nsa-revelations-response-to-smears

Also:

"Snowden Coverage: If U.S. Mass Media Were State-Controlled, Would They Look Any Different?"

By Jeff Cohen


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-cohen/snowden-media-coverage_b_3503971.html

[Phlem]

69. K&R!

excellent post yet again Nadine.

-p

[Hekate]

70. I remember Plame very well, and this is not what happened. She was collateral damage to her husband

Joe Wilson wrote an Op-Ed to the New York Times (What I Didn't Find in Africa, July 6, 2003) revealing the truth about the yellowcake uranium story, and in revenge Dick Cheney had his wife Valerie Plame's identity as a CIA operative revealed.

There were a lot of ugly fabrications about Wilson and Plame, but she never leaked a damn thing, and neither did he. She kept her CIA secrets; and he revealed the truth about Niger in a straight-up article in the Times.

The leaker was Cheney, and about one thing you are correct: The story about him kind of disappeared in the smear of Plame and Wilson.

But where you are wrong is this: It is an entirely different scenario from the current one with Snowden. Snowden is giving away secrets he was sworn to keep, by the cartload. Unlike Valerie Plame, he is no innocent bystander, but the sole instigator.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Try re-reading carefully what I wrote.

I remember the misdirection from the office of the veep to them. Or are you telling me my memory is faulty on those oh very familiar interactions on them boards? What should have been about Dick Chenney quickly morphed into Mrs. Plame...and Mr. Wilson.

She could never defend herself due to what she did for a living, and neither could Wilson totally.

Perhaps you were not a regular on those boards, but I remember it like it was yesterday.

Why all this attempt to make it about the leaker and not the national security state is so damn familiar. In some ways it is very similar in the need to protect powerful people.

For the record, so you know...it was not about Plame, but Chenney, and real people did die. Nor is it about Snowden, but the leaks of all these programs, and the verizon production order...as well as other documents at the Guardian. And any attempts to make it about the worst man since Ghenghis Khan...will not go far with those who have a clue of these techniques.

Which is what the OP was about. So how about we talk Tempora? Hey let's start easy, with the fusion centers, not part of this leak, but part of the process.

[Skidmore]

84. Plame did defend herself. She was out in the media too

defending herself. There was a trial and Libbey fell on his sword for Cheney.

After having spent literally days trying to convince everyone who doesn't see things exactly the way you do that Snowden is an action figure hero and browbeating and name calling, I see we have moved to sanctimonious lecturing and condescension. Why? So much for being a defender of First Amendment issues, especially when you tolerate no opinions but those who agree with you.

[Hekate]

104. Nadin, take a deep breath. You've been talking to me lately as though I just showed up here clueless

I've been here since 2002 and you and I used to have some good conversations back and forth. During the Bush admin I was here a great deal, and I remember you even if you don't remember me.

I followed the Plame-Wilson affair pretty closely; read Wilson's op-ed; went to hear him speak when he came to speak at the university; donated a small amount to their legal fund. I remember it very well indeed, and I know the part that Cheney played.

Of course real people died; Ms. Plame's job was to keep tabs on terrorists and all of a sudden she was outed and all the people who ever had any contact with her overseas were at risk of losing their lives. It was one of the more heinous crimes committed by Cheney.

See?

Snowden is not Valerie Plame. Nobody outed him.

I have written a lot about Snowden as I try to figure out why he would do this. I have not called for his head. But I do think he is damaging this country. I have wondered if he is incredibly naive about how governments work -- US, China, Russia, Ecuador, anyone at all. I have written about the need to rein in the intelligence-gathering apparatus in this country, and how it is still necessary to gather intelligence.

I have maintained that this is complex, and that simple minds demand simple answers.

And you throw down the gauntlet at me and say things like "What say you?"
Well, I've said it. This is what I say: It's complicated and still unfolding.

All the best,

Hekate

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. I remember that

And I am not saying he is. He's not. I am talking of the tactics to distract from the story. Plame distracts from Chenney, Snowden distracts from the security state and the leaks.

That is what is is. It's an ancient propaganda technique.

[cheapdate]

125. I, too, was alive in 2003-2007.

I agree with everything you've said, with one exception. Dick Cheney wasn't simply "forgotten". He was shielded by the Bush administration. The Republicans controlled Congress and the White House. Democrats, progressives, and others interested in the truth were absolutely furious and tried every means available to get to Cheney. But the Bush circle was powerful, loyal, and willing to do anything to protect their interests.

[Hekate]

126. Yep. They did damage to us and our govt that might not be healed, ever

Nobody knows how many of their minions are still burrowed into the federal government. One of Dick Cheney's last actions was to have a number of appointed jobs converted to Civil Service, thus leaving Cheney loyalists in place and protected by Civil Service rules.

Charming people.

Yet somehow Obama is at fault for all of it, as though the Bush/Cheney slate was just wiped clean when Obama took the oath of office.

I will never forget.

[liberal_at_heart]

73. K&R

[Democracyinkind]

76. All valid points.

Though I suspect Snowden to be rather more impeachable than Plame.

[Hydra]

77. Funny seeing all of the people in this thread trying to do it

*derail* *derail* derail*

And I totally remember the Plame episode, and how she was supposed to "get over it" and "no crime had been committed"

At least it's easy to see these days. Won't touch the facts other than to say the gov't assures us it's legal and necessary, so stop asking questions :p

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. I know.

It is kind of funny

[carolinayellowdog]

79. the effort to distract seems to imply that discussion fora are frightening to TPTB

I can't figure out why DU for example is considered worth the investment of time and energy for the hundred-thousand-post-count types to be here daily, hourly, catapulting the propaganda. Isn't giving talking points to useful idiots like David Gregory enough?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Because many fora watchers no longer watch David Gregory.

Many David Gregory watchers are not forum regulars either.

Press the flesh numbers, all Sunday shows actually, are pathetic as far as viewers are concerned.

[L0oniX]

82. K & R Well done!

[felix_numinous]

93. It's human nature to oversimplify issues too

-- I see this as a resistance in some people to be willing or capable of fully understanding the implications of having a shadow organization with very advanced equipment and techniques. The psychology of the American media has aimed to keep people in a very immature state.

It is much easier psychologically to turn this whole thing into a manhunt, like some kind of TV show where everything is resolved by getting the culprit. Absent are the underlying root causes, motives and illusory aspects of every situation-- that reveal themselves OVER TIME.

We have to be willing to grow and learn--if what has been revealed to the public is only 'the tip of the iceburg', our ability to investigate may depend upon our mental agility and flexibility-- and our maturity.

It takes courage to face these people, we need each other for perspective and support-- and endurance. Psi Ops are much more advanced than 90% of the public are willing to accept right now. People would much rather point and laugh, get angry, or distract themselves because these are the ways we protect ourselves from peering into the depths.

But when we turn on the lights, what we thought were giants, or dismissed as woo are just people operating advanced equipment. I think our laws are not only far behind in social issues, but in the ethics of hi technology.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Very insightful by the way

[JoeyT]

96. You forgot that on DU

Cheney is totally innocent of all wrongdoing and only conspiracy theorists think he's a war criminal or outed a CIA agent.

[Kurovski]

102. Kick. (nt)

[WillyT]

110. K & R !!!

[wtmusic]

114. You mean there's more to this than a personality cult??

Brilliant.

[woo me with science]

120. The propaganda machine.

Hallmark of all authoritarian states.

Post #8 is the antidote to the propaganda machine.

K&R

[navarth]

122. kicking this wonderful thought-provoking thread. nt

[ymetca]

123. Obfuscation Inc.

Hmm... what interests me more is not so much what was leaked, but what wasn't. The essential information we need are the algorithms being used to "mine" data. I.e. the meta-meta-data.

The trick would be to identify what the algorithms are looking for, and then spam them into uselessness.

For, in terms of "operation mind fuck", we'd do well to remind ourselves that we currently imagine living on a "planet" circling a "star" in a "universe" that started with a "big bang". That collective mental construct may be as primitive as the idea it all began in the Garden of Eden.

[Major Hogwash]

128. At least you warned us this time.

About the content of your thread.

This truth in advertising fad at the DU is groovy.

[bigtree]

132. again with calling DUers dupes

Last edited Thu Jun 27, 2013, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

. . . whatever your point is, it's obscured by this * demeaning language of yours. Ugh!

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. Well thank you... but you missed it

I am calling those who are able to see the technique for what it is, exactly the contrary of what you just posted.

By the way, I am looking forwards to more photos... make sure you include Bo, his adorable!

[bigtree]

134. short sight

. . . glad you caught the photos I posted (a small percentage of the space I filled here over the years with my almost 50,000 posts).

Oh, and, there's propaganda - and there's propaganda. See the difference?

When we begin to see the folks we interact with here as operatives and shills(esp. when we disagree), we forfeit the genius of the discussions here.

I'm compelled to make this point because I think it's at the heart of how I approach differing ideas in this forum. Most everyone here is compelled to post and respond to threads for a never-ending variety of reasons and motivations. If we focus squarely on the ideas and opinions presented and refuse to dwell on personalization or over-characterizing those who bother to communicate with and respond to us, we will invariably broaden the scope and our understanding of the issues and concerns raised.

Once we begin to personalize and question motives of posters (and we ALL do this), we tend to close ourselves off from other opinions which may well enhance our own positions; either in opposition or revelation.

I mostly agree with your take on psyops, btw . . .

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Then we agree that there is a huge psy ops operation ongoing

That is good. Because that is what that post was about. And to be honest, it is not the motives of the posters here.

Or the personalities for that matter.

At this point some of those Eastern European (or for that matter Mexican) jokes apply.

My favorite has to do with blind kittens. When the Berlin Wall fell, and the Stasi was finally taken to pieces... most East German Citizens were proof Positive that they were followed by the state. It came to be that 20% at tops were. That is a chilling number.

But they used to have many jokes to speak of what kind of a world they lived in. And I am seeing the exact same pattern taking hold in the United States.

That is party independent and the continuity of this goes well before Clinton (when many became aware of it, due to Echelon, another series of leaks, and Carnivore, yet another series of leaks)... it goes well back to 1947... the seeds for that were established then.

They flourished during the 1950s and 1960s with CONTRIELPRO, our own less violent version of the dirty wars... and so it has.

So no, I do not blame one POTUS for it... but I do not trust my government either. Have not trusted this government for a while to be exact. These leaks reveal Something ugly, but also the extent of the propaganda apparatus.

And the post was not meant as a call out... sorry you took it that way. It was meant as a blind kittens opening eyes.

[bigtree]

136. the psyops is so deep these days that it's hard to tell what position your OWN opinion is serving

. . . it's ingrained because of our natural need to identify and associate our own views with other coalitions of belief or assertion.

I tend to take a less alarmist view, in that, I see open discussion as the remedy for such coercive attempts to direct thought or opinion. Consider this . . . nothing serves a demagogue more than insular politics. Once you've defined opposing opinions as threatening, or an attack, you're left with your own exclusive bias to defend. Convenient (even correct, perhaps), but, nonetheless, myopic and alienating, in so many ways. That's not a good approach to the discussions here, imo.

I know that many here view this board as activism, itself - and, there's really nothing at all wrong with that, so long as we recognize that it's also a place where we should feel free to sound out differing ideas and opinions in order to further our understanding of issues raised. That's what many of us part-time political watchers use this forum for, I think. That type of loosely dedicated advocacy isn't ideal for determined activists, I understand, but there should be a great deal of room given to feel our way through the information we are bombarded with without fearing that we're choosing sides with every utterance.

As you point out, true operatives play the public from almost every angle. It's been that way long before I was born. I think much of those efforts are overcome by a full dissemination of views; not a select set.

Hope that's more to the point, and less distracting, Nadine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Well this is not activism.

Activism is the hunger strike I covered, notice the term I used, covered. Activism is Occupy, activism is people getting in front of the CPUC (many of them OSD peeps) and demanding change.

here, meh!

But here is where a lot of those forces are at play.