Male Privilege, helpfully explained by a white dude

[LeftyMom]

Hope this helps.

[NYC_SKP]

1. "I can walk down the street without hearing, "Hey! Nice Cock!"

It's a good rant, much as I hate what GD has become of late, it's a righteous rant.

[LeftyMom]

3. Yeah, I didn't post it to start another fight, I posted it because maybe people will listen to a guy

and if not at least it's funny?

[hfojvt]

139. it's kinda funny

but it's also kinda stupid

I was just remembering my youth when I got cat-called by girls all the time.

Here's how it went.

Dude is on his bike going to the library or something. Goes by a couple of girls. One girl either yells something derogatory at said guy, or they play this game. One girl yells "Hey, Susan likes you!" and Susan quickly yells (just in case said "victim" was not sure of his own unattractiveness) "No I don't".

So, okay, can we quit pretending that girls will NEVER harrass a guy? Please?

And this fool who thinks he can go jogging without fear. Is perhaps unaware of the things like this that can happen to male joggers

http://www.koco.com/news/oklahomanews/okc/jogger-killed-by-truck-in-oklahoma-city/-/11777584/21413980/-/bynu2pz/-/index.html

and this

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/crime-law/cops-3-bored-teens-shoot-jogger-to-death-in-oklaho/nZTBg/

It's kind of a dangerous world out there for men too.

[LeftyMom]

145. There's a big difference between teenagers saying their friend likes you and grown men shouting

very specific comments about your body and what they'd like to do to it.

As far as your examples, women are still subject to other violence and to vehicle accidents. That those things exist does not in any way negate the real risk of rape and sexual assault faced by women.

[KitSileya]

147. "Show me your p¤ssy."

That's what a stranger told me at 12, in front of the local library, at daytime. I couldn't even process what he said the first time, so I asked him to repeat himself. "Show me your wet p¤ssy." Can't tell you how shaken I was after that, and it took me years to use that library entrance again.

"Nice tits, let me touch them." That was at 18. Stranger during daytime - I was walking home from school.

"Wanna go f&ck?" That was at 20. Stranger while waiting for a friend outside the cinema.

"X likes you" just doesn't seem as bad, somehow.

[seabeyond]

150. it is not like this has not been told, repeatedly, by TOO many women. what is the need

to ignore, dismiss, minimize.

[KitSileya]

153. I know, I know, and I should start to recognize which usernames show good faith

attempts at discussion and which do now, but after 12 years and less than 2000 posts, I haven't waded into a lot of bad faith discussions, and when you're just reading, remembering who said what is difficult.

[hfojvt]

172. seems to me that it was post 147

which did the "dismiss" and "minimize" and the OP as well.

There was the OP saying "this stuff does NOT happen to men"

and I mention some things that DID happen to this MALE and to some other males.

And the response was "that stuff that happened to you was minimal by comparison" - dismiss and minimize.

never ONCE did I dismiss or minimize anything that happens to some women. But at the same time, my story of "man goes out jogging, gets shot and killed" WAS minimized.

Hey, it's only a man getting killed, it's no big deal.

[KitSileya]

180. Your stories didn't show crimes that happened to those persons simply because they were men.

Any jogger can be hit by a car, regardless of gender.

My examples happened because I was perceived as less powerful, just as you were when you were a boy. Women and children are victimized because they are considered less powerful, less threatening. Your example of the man shot is the only one that comes near, if you posit that they shot him because they wanted to feel more powerful. I don't think they would have refrained from shooting if the jogger had been a woman, either.

[hfojvt]

215. except the fool in the video said

"I can jog" - WITHOUT FEAR

"I can walk to my car" - WITHOUT FEAR

As if men, you know, thousands of them, are not mugged, knifed, shot, beaten, or otherwise threatened every day.

And the motive for the crime.

Well, it is great consolation I am sure, after you have had the crap beaten out of you, that at least you didn't have the crap beaten out of you because of your gender.

I should probably go visit assault victims in the hopsital and tell them that to comfort them. I'll walk up to their hospital bed, pull up a chair and say "Let me tell you about male privilege ..."

And sure people attack those they perceive as vulnerable. There was a girl who used to harrass me in the dorm. (Although I was 20 or 21 and she was likely at least 18, so not technically a girl). Once we happened to pass each other on the same path, going around some construction. And we were the only two on that path. Oh she did not have anything to say then.

One little guy in the 8th grade sorta did the same thing. He would publicly give me crap, and I would take it. Then we were scheduled to wrestle in PE, and he talks to me beforehand sorta pleading with me to take it easy on him. I was like 15 pounds heavier than him, but we both fell into the same weight class of "the smallest kids in the class".

I can certainly see extra vulnerability coming from smaller size and assumed weakness, but at the same time don't think THAT translates into some sort of 'privilege'.

[NuclearDem]

220. He's very aware that there are degrees of male privilege.

Not all men are equal. Some are in a position, just by virtue of their income level, race or orientation to be victims of violent crime more than others. Yes, thousands of men are victims of violent crime.

But the point of the damn video was that men, by virtue of being men, don't largely have to deal with being raped or sexually assaulted in those situations. (And yes, I know very well that many men are, but the statistics overwhelmingly show that victims of these crimes are women). Of course men are shot, mugged, stabbed, or beaten. The video doesn't deny that at all, and I know for a fact Jamie doesn't deny it.

[Squinch]

283. The situations you posed were not equivalent.

As an adolescent I, too, rode my bike past a group of boys. One said another liked me. The one in question said, "No I don't."

In my wildest dreams, I wouldn't consider that harassment. So yes, that incident of the children taunting each other was minimized because it seems to not understand what we are talking about here. So I'll tell you: later that same day, I rode past a tree in a wooded area. A naked man jumped out from behind the tree with his underwear over his head and tried to grab me as I rode my bike past him.

THAT I would consider harassment.

So, there's a difference.

Joggers of both sexes can get hit by cars. People of both sexes get shot by bored teens. Those are not examples of the dangers you face for simply being male.

[hfojvt]

285. equivalent to what?

the video, from the OP, which I was responding to, very specifically said "I can walk down the street without HEARING ..."

So, no, having somebody SAY something is NOT the same thing as having somebody try to grab you (although some kid tried to grab/tackle me too (it was a kid four years younger than me who wanted to fight me, he ran out from some trees and slammed into me. I, thinking it was an accident, just brushed him off and kept walking, and then he started yelling at me, challenging me to a fight).

But the OP was fairly specific, about being able to walk down the street and not have people SAY things.

I simply pointed out that the OP was wrong.

Further, whether a man gets mugged, beaten or killed because he is a man is NOT relevant to what the video said. The video said that "it is safe for a man to go jogging at night" or "walk to his car at night".

Again, I am simply pointing out that the video is quite simply wrong. A male is NOT ten feet tall and bullet proof. Men can and DO get attacked while jogging or while walking to their car, and can also, just like a woman, get seriously hurt or killed or threatened.

Is there EXTRA risk, extra vulnerability for women.

Yes.

But the video made it sound like we men get to skip through life, untouched and alive at defcon zero, perfectly safe and perfectly happy (okay, maybe I added that last part about happy) while women are miserable and nervous always at defcon 4.

I am just reminded of the interaction between Bender and "Queenie" in "The Breakfast Club". Because I had this argument with the ex-prom queen at my twenty year reunion. As former valedictorian I was not doing that well. After I closed my store in 1998, here it was the summer of 2000 and I was still working as a factory temp, unable to find or get a job with benefits. And she was telling me some Horatio Alger bullsh*t about how "anything is possible" and I needed to pull myself up by my own bootstraps.

And I could not help remembering the time when I was doing my paper route and she and a bunch of her friends came by and started making fun of me. And I am thinking that she thinks "anything is possible" because all her life people have opened doors for her (literally and figuratively). People want her to be their friend. She can go into a job interview and smile and be charming and confident and likely win any job she applies for, just like she won the homecoming queen vote.

Me, I go into a job interview and probably make the interviewer think "this odd, funny looking guy thinks he is smarter than me" and end up only getting the jobs that nobody else wants.

So this whole frame of "men are privileged" and "women are victims" doesn't fit with the life I have lived. It's not a privilege to have the prom queen and her huge band of friends make fun of you while you are walking five miles through the snow delivering papers or riding your bike in the hot sun. It's not a privilege to clean toilets for a living. And, on the other hand, it sure does look like a privilege to have lots of friends, to have a spouse (and probably your pick of spouses) to be elected prom queen. Of course, most women are not elected prom queen. Even my three beautiful sisters, none of them even made the top five, much less got elected queen. But they also, unlike my brother and I, had no problem getting dates. That's not a privilege?

[Squinch]

286. Do you think that "Suzie likes you" is the same as

"hey, little girl, when are you going to fuck me?" said to a 13 year old, or "show me your tits!" said as you walk with your boss on a city street on the way to lunch?

That's what I mean when I say the situations are not equivalent.

[hfojvt]

165. no, it doesn't seem as bad

but at the same time when a woman asked me if I wanted to have sex, when we crossed paths while I was biking home - I was not terribly offended, even though she expected me to pay.

I guess I would rather be told, at age 20, that I was desirable instead of constantly being told and told and told that I am not.

I have this memory that I swear happened more than once. Where I saw this old guy sitting on a bench and tried to talk to him, thinking, I dunno, that he would have interesting stories about the old days. And instead he says, to this young boy - "my pecker sure is hard". I cannot remember how old I was, and I swear that it happened more than once. And I was like "note to self - do NOT talk to old guys.

[KitSileya]

169. I didn't see any of those as attempt to tell me I was desirable.

They were trying to make me uncomfortable - they had absolutely no expectation that I would say "yes!" - that wasn't their purpose. They wanted to make me feel dirty, and scared, and have power over me. That is what it is all about, even rape - it is the means by which they have power over someone.

So yes, it isn't about attraction at all.

Edited to add: being solicited by prostitutes? Try being solicited by johns when you are as young as 11, as DUers told about in a thread last week. With the power differential it's a scarring experience.

[seabeyond]

176. yes, you might try changing your think. not about compliment. to embarrass. harass, humiliate.

you are looking at it wrapped pretty. there is nothing pretty. control. like the old man. did that feel complimentary to you?

[hfojvt]

196. no the old man was not complimentary

but there was nothing about control there either, unless his point was "let me say something strange, so this young punk will leave me alone" but why not try "leave me alone, kid" first?

Maybe he just did have a stiffie and it was occupying his mind. Kinda like when I visited my dad's uncle and he kept saying over and over "I can't hardly see. I can't hardly see." Some things have a way of capturing your attention.

Like, you know, even a semi-attractive female.

Now telling somebody they are NOT attractive. What do you think is the point of THAT? That is certainly, unquestionably designed to "embarrass" "harrass" and "humiliate".

But since it only happened to me, it doesn't matter. It's just a small little thing. I should be humiliated for even daring to mention it here.

Like Ziggy said "Learn to laugh at your problems, everybody else does."

[seabeyond]

199. what that old man was doing was absolutely about a control, totally about making you uncomfortable

[KitSileya]

203. Your examples keep being universal, not gender-specific.

Boys also tell girls they're not attractive (if you are still referring to the derogatory remarks in your first example.) But do girls continue with it when they grow up? Do women tell you you're ugly, fat, frigid, gay? Because that happens all the time to women who are street harassed, when they refuse to smile, heed their harassers, talk to men on the bus. "Frigid b!tch. Ugly b!tch. You must be a lesbian."

We're not laughing at your problems, we're just trying to put them into perspective here.

[hfojvt]

221. that's kinda my point - universality

a universal perspective, that, you know, men can face some of the same crap too.

Unlike, you know, the guy in the video "this stuff doesn't happen to men" "that stuff doesn't happen to men".

The OP basically said "men don't have these problems"

and it was wrong.

I am personally thankful that I don't ride a bus or subway daily, otherwise I would probably have half a dozen male horror stories to tell from that experience.

One blogger told of a story of a group of youths pestering her and another male passenger who said something about it - after they were off the train. The fact of the matter is that the MALE was also scared of those thugs. Which is why he did NOT say anything while the harrassment was going on.

Here I binged a story about violence on the subway http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-producer-victim-of-nyc-subway-assault/

And as for whether girls continue when they grow up. Well I happened to be bending over a railing, trying to sand and paint it when an elderly woman happened by and made some comment about my butt.

I took THAT as a compliment though.

If only she was 25 years younger...

[NuclearDem]

223. And you completely and totally made the video's point.

As a man, you take comments about your body as a compliment. You're not in fear that that woman was going to get sexually aggressive towards you.

Which is EXACTLY what Jamie was talking about.

[NuclearDem]

148. False equivalency.

[gollygee]

158. "Susan likes you" ????

Are you really saying you think that's anything at all like street harassment? Really?

[TreasonousBastard]

246. What was that thing about good intentions...

Gee, how could one even imagine a fight would start over a post concerning the most pyrotechnic topic on DU in ages?

Over 200 posts again, most by people who have said the same thing for the last 100 or so threads on this same stuff. And argued with the same people.

Lets see...

Violence is bad.

Sexual violence is bad.

If we all agree on those two points, and I think we do, how do we descend into acrimony all the time?

[LeftyMom]

265. Eh. 75+ recs, dozens of positive responses, and half a dozen pissed off MRAs.

I think it did okay.

[PoliticalPothead]

276. The fact that these threads are so incendiary, especially on a liberal forum, is very telling...

And what it tells me is that we need more of these threads. A lot more.

[seabeyond]

277. point. nt

[redqueen]

284. +1

[awoke_in_2003]

54. Try keeping it your pants for a change...

Seriously, though, we men don't have to put up with a tenth of the shit a woman does.

[whathehell]

78. Thank you...I've been waiting about forty years to hear a man say that

Seriously....

[awoke_in_2003]

85. What?

Admitting that men don't have to put up with the crap that women do?

[whathehell]

88. You're surprised?

I'm sixty four years old and have been a feminist for forty four of those.

In that length of time, I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard this freely admitted.

[awoke_in_2003]

91. I am surprised...

that I am receiving hate for siding with women.

[NuclearDem]

92. I'm not sure the eye roll was directed at you.

In

[awoke_in_2003]

94. You may be right...

I hope you are.

[whathehell]

108. "Misogyny is the last acceptable bigotry of the Left"...Katha Pollitt, The Nation

I do hope you're not receiving that hate from DU, although, unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me much if you did

[seabeyond]

2. this man is kick ass excellent. thanks. nt

[racaulk]

4. Hey, you got some fine balls! Yeah, why don't you jiggle those sweet balls over this way?

This is pretty damn fantastic and fairly easy to understand to anyone who isn't, as this guy says, a dick.

[Starry Messenger]

5. k&r

[Zorra]

6. Recommend nt

[smirkymonkey]

7. Awesome. Thanks!

+1000

[Gormy Cuss]

8. I'd like to think that this didn't need to be explained here

but Kilstein is right on so many points.

[Baitball Blogger]

9. Very cool.

[DeSwiss]

10. Dude rocks!

- I'm a feminist and I did it without drinking soy milk! My mom helped a lot........

K&R

[BainsBane]

11. Let me also add: Don't tell me I'm NOT a feminist

because I disagree with you on a subject. Being male doesn't mean you get to decide who is and isn't a feminist.

Love the "nice guy" air quotes.

[NuclearDem]

12. Jamie's incredible. Love this guy.

[gtar100]

13. Loved it! (nt)

[uppityperson]

14. Oh that is good, thank you. Laughing at several parts.

[whathehell]

90. Which parts are you laughing at?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

15. Lol.

If you're white, straight, without physical disabilities, and fairly middle class income you're also very privileged as a woman in the U.S.

[BainsBane]

16. Did you read the part about walking to the car with keys clenched as a weapon?

And having to use the buddy system? Is that funny to you or just a drag that you have to hear about it?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

17. Do you disagree with what I said?

[Gormy Cuss]

21. Was what you said relevant to the topic? No.

It was a diversion.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

43. The topic was privilege

I expanded it.

[seabeyond]

46. even a white middle class woman will still experience sexism. is her life more privileged

than others? you betcha. being a white upper income middle aged woman i well recognize my privilege.

again

it does nto keep me in a bubble protecting me from sexism or misogyny

[Pretzel_Warrior]

53. Exactly. Barack Obama was a millionaire by 2006

Due to his career, Michelle's career, and his best selling book. But I bet you if he walked into high end department stores or drove in the wrong neighborhood, he was profiled and possibly harrassed.

Is he male? Check
Part of 1%?Check
Highly educated? Check

[seabeyond]

57. still experiences racism.... check. does she still experience racism and sexism... check

[Romulox]

118. And poor men are discriminated against due to their lack of wealth. You seem to be ok with that one.

[seabeyond]

123. you bring it out of the blue and conclude i am ok. liberal!! fight for the poor!!

why would you say that?

privilege. that is what the conversation is and you are well aware. take a poor black man. take a poor white man. and even in poor, the white man will have privilege the black man does not.

right?

i have to think that your sole purpose was to make that comment to me. and there was no reason.

[Gormy Cuss]

70. Yes, expanded it and distracted from the focus of the OP.

That's why I called it a diversion. The issue in the OP is male privilege, specifically male, white, without disabilities or poverty privilege.

[BainsBane]

24. You haven't answered my question

Your post is a clear attempt to mock what it means to be a woman in this country. Does that mean race isn't also a axis of privilege and discrimination? Of course not. But that doesn't justify belittling women's issues. 1 in 3 women in this nation are raped or beaten. You may think that absolutely inconsequential, as you suggested this morning by insisting that rape isn't "germane" (even going so far as to compare threads on rape to pitbulls), but those of us subject to that violence do not. You are the target audience for this video, yet you remain determined not to listen.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

51. You have amazing powers of discernment

Having never known me and based on only limited number of posts on the subject, you think I am the target audience. This is why these threads devolve. As soon as someone doesn't 100% relent and brings up other points, you label them.

Don't worry. I won't alert on your personal attack where you presume to know everything about me because of a discussion board.

[BainsBane]

77. I know what you posted this morning

That was entirely offensive. Additionally, you never showed the slightest bit of regret that you so casually dismissed life experiences of a good percentage of members of this board because they have the nerve to post about something that isn't about you. Why would you imagine you should were exempt from the target audience of the video? Are you not male? You certainly have made a point of denying the message of the video here.

[Rex]

232. I think he is getting antsy about his forced vay kay.

[Gravitycollapse]

75. Statistics demonstrate that you are much more likely to be assaulted...

By someone you know than a complete stranger.

The rhetoric surrounding fear of public spaces involves the deception that women are truly unsafe in public spaces when in reality that really isn't the case. Now we could get into what it means to be unsafe but what I'm actually talking about is violent assault.

In other words, feel free to walk through the park at night. It is statistically perfectly safe (excepting of course areas of high crime rates).

[BainsBane]

76. I do now

I didn't when I was young. Statistically, I was far more likely to be assaulted then.

[ScreamingMeemie]

171. Ever had someone grope you at a public concert in the park?

I have... At Meadowbrook (a "nice" area). But of course, that's nothing I imagine in the minds of some.

[Soundman]

301. Why yes I have, just the other night.

Over the last several weeks I have been groped once by a woman (who groped me in the front), and at least twice by a guy. Does dry humping count as groping? If so, then make that three times at least. Then as I was wrapping cables I got beat on by another guy for a few moments. It left a couple bruises but I'm pretty sure I will survive, they were fists of drunken love and adoration. I no longer really give it much notice. I imagine I will be in for more groping tonight and tomorrow. I can't imagine what it would be like if I were good looking. So if that's male privilege, I can't even fathom what it is like on the other side of the coin.

Of course I do have a choice for Saturday. Do I go to the place where I will probably be groped or go to the place where making eye contact with the wrong person is liable to get me stabbed?

I wish I was making this up, but I'm not. This is my job.

[FrodosPet]

100. I'm a big guy. I can (and unintentionally do) intimidate people.

And while my self defense skills are not what they were 10 or 20 years ago, I'm still in a position where most people will think twice before assaulting me.

But I have always done the clenched key thing. "What is near me that I can use as a weapon if needed, and how would I use it?" When I am outside of the house, I try to be aware of who is around me and what their intentions are. And while I am not in as much jeopardy as women, I've been taught all my life to avoid being alone late at night.

I'm not diminishing anything about the tragic pile of shit women go through. I just want to point out that life is frightening for anyone who pays attention. And particularly for anyone from "the wrong side of the tracks", or who has been robbed several times.

[LeftyMom]

18. Somebody was going to be too thick to get it. Congrats on being the first to admit it.

[JDPriestly]

22. Depends on your generation and the local culture and family in which you grew up.

I did not discover my professional calling until I was in my late 40s. The story is too long to tell, but the reason for the delay was that it was not a profession that women entered when I was choosing my career path. Do I feel cheated? Yes. I made sure my daughters knew that they could be anything they wanted and that they knew what the possibilities were. Men of my generation (born in WWII) had definite, pronounced, exceedingly rich possibilities for fulfillment that we women did not have.

On the other hand, there are a few advantages that women have and that men at least now can never experience: pregnancy, childbirth, nursing a baby and just being a mother. I feel blessed to have had those experiences that no men can have (at least not now). Count your blessings!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

56. I do appreciate your response. And I would like to hear your story

It sounds interesting and something others would appreciate as well.

[chervilant]

30. You are relentlessly defensive in virtually

every pro-Feminist thread on DU --
poor, pitiful Pretzel. To quote someone who should have gotten an Oscar: "Aren't you tired, Miss Hilly Pretzel? Aren't you tired?"

(Perhaps your energy would be better spent figuring out why you're so defensive about women's issues...)

[Pretzel_Warrior]

58. The funny thing is I'm not really defensive.

I'm playing devil's advocate on the issue. Why? Partly because I think there are a few here engaging in bullying behavior.

Anyway, I grew up with sisters and saw them suffer as females compared to my brother and me in countless ways. Both were even abused/exploited and got out of those situations. I have a daughter who graduated from high school who I am trying with great effort to build esteem so she sees she's powerful and can take control of her destiny.

But thanks for prejudging and pigeon holing me.

[KitSileya]

105. Playing Devil's Advocate with the lived experiences of half the human race is a shitty thing to do.

This is our lives we're talking about, sometimes literally our lives. It shows an unwillingness to actually listen to what we are saying about how we live our daily lives, and that is very disheartening, especially on a Democratic forum. That you can play devil's advocate withi this shows how far removed from your personal experience it is, and perhaps it would behoove you better to listen rather than taunt, which is what playing devil's advocate really is.

If you still insist on your right to play devil's advocate, I dare you to do something. As Blanche did further down in the thread, I dare you to go to the LGBT forum and play devil's advocate with their experiences of homophobia, or the African American forum and play devil's advocate with their experiences of racism. Just because misogyny affects so many more people doesn't mean it is less real than racism and homophobia.

[demmiblue]

106. This poster's homophobic remarks are what got him tombstoned from DU2.

Something about fabulous pink ponies.

He is an equal opportunity offender.

[KitSileya]

107. I didn't know that.

As anyone can see from my profile page, I'm a low post long-time member, but since I live most of the year in Europe, the time zones make me miss a lot of what happens on DU. However, in the last couple of months, I have become more engaged in combating misogyny here on DU, because it was such a shock to me to see so many defend porn they had no idea whether was rape or not. Living in a social democratic country for parts of the year really opens your eyes to what can be achieved if everyone sacrifices a little, and how harping on your rights to enjoy something at the expense of others just doesn't jive anymore, because you see a society where consensus is that you shouldn't, even if it is your right, and you see how much better that society is than the US.

[PeaceNikki]

112. And the women are called the "perpetually outraged brigade"... odd that.

You're correct. They say a 'few women are stirring up shit', but many of the replies and OP's by several of the men here are mean, vindictive, offensive disruptions.

[awoke_in_2003]

62. Yet still treated like a sex object...

some privilege

[KentuckyWoman]

64. For the record

I am white, straight, without (many) physical disabilities, and fairly middle class income. I am also shorter than average, obese, mostly grey haired and can still walk a mile faster than most local kids a third my age.

Cops here in this corner of Kentucky back in the 60's didn't bother to stop my grandfather from raping his granddaughters. Authorities weren't overly concerned with stopping my first husband from beating me nearly to death even after I divorced him and had a restraining order (which was hell to get from the judicial system in 1980's Cincinnati).

In 2013 I started my own business. Am employing 13 people with above average wages for the area. During the remodel of our building I had a man I trust to meet the building inspectors because they've been known to actively submarine woman owned businesses by dragging out the approval process.

Does the fact it could be worse make me privileged? I guess so if your definition of privileged means not to be crapped on quite as much as some other people get crapped on by rich, white men.

All that said, I'm more the sort to count my blessings.

[NuclearDem]

68. Which is something that Jamie and his wife stress repeatedly on their podcast.

Doesn't change anything about what was said in the video.

[Matariki]

79. You can have privilege in many areas and not in others

That's pretty commonly agreed on.

While I wish someone could come up with a better word than privilege (because it throws a lot of people or makes them fear someone is trying to take something away from them), the concept is valid.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

81. And I understand/agree with the concept of privilege

As a real thing. I think by removing privilege, society IS taking away an unfair and unearned advantage (or trying to).

Many who grow up privileged do not want to acknowledge that privilege exists.

[El_Johns]

306. I think when it's put like "women are more likely to get catcalled than men" most will agree.

I think it's the idea that not getting catcalled is some kind of "privilege" that grates on some.

[whathehell]

86. Lol..

"If you're white, straight, without physical disabilities, and fairly middle class income you're also very privileged as a woman in the U.S"

You could remove any ONE of those qualities and keep the others and reach that same conclusion.

Are you prepared to tell Blacks and Gays with fairly middle class incomes that they are "very priveliged" too?.

Nah, I didn't think so...

[cinnabonbon]

109. That is called intersectionality

It is the idea that just because you are privileged in one area doesnt stop you from bring oppressed in another.

Example: a white guy is gay, so he is oppressed for that. He still has white privilege and male privilege.
A black woman doesn't have white privilege, but she still has cis privilege, etc.

The idea is that just because you are privileged on one axis of oppression doesn't mean you are privileged on others. it still doesn't mean the privilege you have on the first axis magically stops existing brcause you are oppressed in another.

[shaayecanaan]

194. The problem is that this sort of approach reduces oppression to a Pokemon-card style trading system

and obscures the fact that the primary dichotomy in our world is one of class. The concerns of a typical middle class white woman, however pressing they might seem to her, would be trivial compared with those of an impoverished man in a fourth-world country.

[NuclearDem]

197. Ugh. I get what you're saying, but that's the same crap Dawkins said.

And it's nearly identical to "Americans don't know what poverty is, just look at (insert third world country here)".

[shaayecanaan]

208. It is "ugh" precisely because it is true, I suspect...

and because the emergence of identity politics in the post-war period (of which feminism plays a relatively small part, I admit) was largely responsible for the demise of working-class coalition politics, which for all its faults was the only period in which there was a substantial improvement in the living conditions of working people in America.

Despite all the claims of "sisterhood", there is no evidence that ruling-class or middle-class women care any more for the fortunes of poor women than rich men do for poor men. Many of the concerns of the feminist movement (such as equal representation and remuneration for female directors on the boards of public companies) are not even middle-class concerns so much as they are ruling-class concerns.

[NuclearDem]

217. That's the point of movements like Occupy, though.

99% vs 1%. Yes, there is significant infighting among the 99%, but it's not a liability that feminism and the LGBT community have grown in power. The 1% exerts control everywhere, and the patriarchy and heteronormativity are just more manifestations of that control.

And again, yes, there are problems within different communities of certain groups having more influence and power than others, and that certainly needs to be addressed.

[shaayecanaan]

229. choristosexual

Apparently it means "discrete sexuality". I only heard this one the other day at university. It is a term used by "genderqueer" people, who have no fixed sexuality, to refer to those people who do.

I suppose if it takes off we will have one more form of privilege to obsess about. No doubt occupy can set aside another shade tent in their increasingly irrelevant camp as a "safe space" for genderqueer people or something.

[NuclearDem]

231. Yes, we will. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Do you think there is?

[shaayecanaan]

239. Not at all

I wish you and the People's Front of Judea all the best.

No doubt, however, if a viable working class movement does arise at some time in the future, you will be the first to lambast it for being excessively "choristonormative". But I imagine by then people would have recognised that for the simple trolling that it is.

[NuclearDem]

279. Got it, including new minorities and orientations is too much work for you.

Got it.

[Hippo_Tron]

287. Right because men have to endure sex trafficking, genital mutilation, and being spouse's property

Male privilege is a much bigger thing in many of these "fourth-world countries" than it is in middle class America.

[shaayecanaan]

290. But fourth-world men do have to endure being press-ganged into armed conflicts

and sometimes as child soldiers. And of the two million work-related deaths in the world each year, 80% are from Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, and 80% are men. Likewise, 80% of serious accidents resulting in the loss of the use of at least one limb are men. The working conditions particularly in mining in Africa are horrible, and if you have ever lived in Africa (and I have) the sight of disabled men pushing themselves along on duckboards is a common one.

Have a look on the back of your milk carton. If there's a missing person there, its most likely a pretty, white female. This is because women are, for the most part, considered more worthy of sympathy and assistance.

There is nothing good about being poor in the fourth world. There are no advantages and overwhelming disadvantages to being so. Clearly being female is not quite as simple as that.

[cinnabonbon]

289. Class is one of the ways to oppress people, yes

But it is not the most important one. No oppression/privilege is "the primary one", we live in a much more complex world that that. Saying one is more important will sound like one is invalidating the experiences of people suffering on other axises of oppression. Saying they are trivial is also quite daring, as one doesn't know what the white middle class woman struggles with, considering the government is petitioning for her bodily autonomy to be taken away.

However, I will agree that feminism and similar movements are western societ based, which means they are primarily written by white people. That means we don't hear enough voices from other sides of the world, although it would benefit us all if they would share their experience with us.

[shaayecanaan]

291. response

Saying they are trivial is also quite daring, as one doesn't know what the white middle class woman struggles with, considering the government is petitioning for her bodily autonomy to be taken away.

You mean that women are going to be remotely controlled? Thats quite an achievement, in technical terms.

Oh, you meant abortion.

Outside of the US, it barely rates a mention. If a woman in Africa does not want a child she will resort to infanticide, which is reasonably common and tolerated, particularly if the child has a disability. While she will still endure the rigours of childbirth, it is probably safer for her to undergo that than to brave a procedure in your average African hospital. Hers is a pretty bad lot, but it is bad on account of her poverty, primarily.

Abortion in China, Japan and much of Asia is incentivised. If a woman doesnt want a child then the State sure as hell doesnt. Frankly I doubt that any US state truly wants to have childen growing up in institutions again, or to have their welfare rolls swell with unwanted children, or to have to prosecute obstetricians who practice abortion. The abortion "debate" in the US is a perennial slapstick affair which works to the benefit of both of its principal antagonists. The feminist groups here in Australia must rue the fact that there is bipartisan support for legal abortion.

I encourage you to have that conversation with people in the fourth world, but bear in mind that your concerns are very trivial compared with theirs. And frankly, if your most pressing concern was trying to find out where your next meal was coming from, you would not care about boobs and bums being shown on the TV, or female directors on public company boards, or any those other white middle class concerns either.

[cinnabonbon]

292. Hmmmm.

I see some strawmen there. I never once talked about boobs on the tv or female directors. You are using those examples to trivialize the very real struggle that feminists have against the very real threat to their autonomy and equality. That is not very nice, is it? Why would you insult the work to promote human rights?

For the record,
1. you don't have to go to the fourth world to find hunger.
2. Being told you can only have one child is also controlling a woman's right to choose over her body.
3. The woman in Africa, if she's been unlucky enough to have to go through Female Genital Mutilation, has to actually SURVIVE a pregnancy before she can worry about what to do with the baby, and really.... All of what this tells me is that we need more feminism, not less. A more intersectional feminism that listens to the troubles of all its members, but nevertheless more.

[shaayecanaan]

293. further response

Being told you can only have one child is also controlling a woman's right to choose over her body.

Not really. If a couple has more than one child contrary to the one child policy, typically there will be a financial penalty, usually the loss of workers' bonuses. As it is typically the husband that earns the income, usually it is his salary that is affected.

I suppose that its also a woman's right to smoke tobacco as well. However, while a woman or man can elect to make that choice, I believe that it is only fair and reasonable that they should pay some penalty (ie tobacco excise) for the societal consequences of that choice. Having a child is not just a burden for the woman, it is a burden for the society and environment as well.

you don't have to go to the fourth world to find hunger.

Well, I suppose you can find it in the third world as well. But the poor in the US suffer far more from obesity than they do from starvation.

All of what this tells me is that we need more feminism, not less. A more intersectional feminism that listens to the troubles of all its members, but nevertheless more.

The problem is that the white, wealthy women who would piously seek "dialogue" with fourth world women are also the oppressors of those women. It is they who wear nice clothes created in bangladeshi sweatshops and who now earn 50% of the bloated Nokia executive salaries skimmed from the labors of Filipino women crouched over workstations. As such, it is difficult to see how any such dialogue could not be a fundamentally unequal and self serving exercise on behalf of white wealthy women.

[cinnabonbon]

294. Thanks for the response

I am waiting for you to answer my question, however. The reason I asked is because our discussion is derailing from the topic, and I want to hear if it's useful continuing it.

In the US there's food insecurity, plus the perverse starvation of anorexia. It is fairly terrible, since there is food available but the person dies of starvation anyway. Malnutrition is also a problem.

For the record, I don't believe white feminism should engage in "white man's burden" behaviour in other countries, because then they would be exercising their white and class privilege. The women there knows their culture best, and knows best where they want to see improvement. (like Wangari Maathai, for example. A brilliant woman!) That leaves the white feminists to improve on their own cultures, of course. Like discussing male privilege. Like in this post.

[shaayecanaan]

296. further further response

For the record, I don't believe white feminism should engage in "white man's burden" behaviour in other countries, because then they would be exercising their white and class privilege.

That is fine. But please don't then pretend to be advocating on behalf of all women. Simply admit that you are advocating for only the interests of white, wealthy women.

In the US there's food insecurity, plus the perverse starvation of anorexia. It is fairly terrible, since there is food available but the person dies of starvation anyway. Malnutrition is also a problem.

It is nothing like the problem faced by the global poor, and you risk trivialising the issue of real hunger by doing so, much like you accuse others of trivialising rape.

I am waiting for you to answer my question, however. The reason I asked is because our discussion is derailing from the topic, and I want to hear if it's useful continuing it.

I believe that I have responded to your posts as fully as possible. I am sorry if I have intervened in the discussion of white people's interests with something so petty as the much greater plight faced by those in the third world. It truly is a tragedy to witness such a "derailment" from such a quality "debate".

The women there knows their culture best, and knows best where they want to see improvement. (like Wangari Maathai, for example. A brilliant woman!)

A middle class woman. It can be difficult to find authentic voices of the global poor represented in the mass media, but certainly there are a few:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodwa_Nsibande

[cinnabonbon]

299. this is like intersectionality in action.

Nope. I never said I advocate for "all women", as you claim. I advocate for human rights, which is what feminism is at its core. I simply choose not to speak over the real voices of those who are oppressed in different ways than me. Certain allies are too fond of speaking too much. I am sure you've met them. The white men that say they have a black friend, so they now believe they know all about racism and use this as a tool to dominate discussions.

As for your response, your core message is very negative and conservative: "Other people have it worse, so be quiet about what is wrong in your part of the world." That's not how it works. We have time to discuss both, but not at the same time. Plus, if we're not allowed to talk about flaws in the rich world, we're never going to be able to improve it to the benefit of us all.

The reason I said it was derailing was because I was hoping you would take the hint: this is a complicated subject you're talking about, and deserves its own post where more people can see it. It shouldn't piggyback on some post that has nothing to do with it, simply because you have some sort of grudge towards feminists. Make a post about poverty and see how many agrees with you, I bet that will be encouraging! We might even get some good African literature recommendations out of it.

Yep, she was. But she was still brown and a woman, living in Africa so she ought to know something about male privilege and white privilege. And there has been some great books written about her that are quite fun to read. I will follow the link you gave me, thanks! I bet it will be interesting. --And I see now that there's films linked in the description, so that might be good.

[shaayecanaan]

300. My original post

objected to the notion that you can adequately sum up privilege as a scrabble-game series of labels: male privilege, white privelege, cis privilege and whatever else that the New Left has managed to invent since I was at university.

Most of these labels are problematic to some degree. Even white privilege implies that there is some permanent curse or disability that attaches to being non-white, whereas to the extent that white privilege exists it is generally because white people have all the money. That has remained more or less constant for the last 600 years, although in the next century it is likely that India and China will replace North America and Europe as the superpowers. Presumably then the New Left will have to add "Chinese privilege" and "Indian privilege" to its list of labels.

Certainly, being male means one is far less likely to be raped, although to male rape victim that probably doesnt mean very much. Its probably an interesting question for the New Left: does a male rape victim still enjoy male privilege?

[cinnabonbon]

302. I don't know what you mean when you say "New Left". Elaborate, please.

Yes, a male rape victim still has male privilege. At its core, male privilege is about living in a culture that is catered to men, not about lack of rape. No one are guaranteed to avoid rape. (This is partly because we make light of "women-centric" crimes like rape, and the rapists benefit from this.)

This culture is centered on maleness being the "norm", especially in places of authority. We only notice it when it's lacking. Men are used to being the ones listened to. Think about it. Why does it bother so many liberal men when women post on a progressive website about issues they face? It is because it is disturbing the norm, and they are quick to ask "but what about the men?" to readjust the focus back on them. It's a widespread phenomenon, and even poor men and men of color benefit from it, although the white cis male benefits most of all. The only people that are likely to lose male privilege are trans*women, who transition from being a man to a woman.

'White privilege' was a term made by POC, so I doubt they were denigrating themselves. What they are saying is that they live in a culture that convinces the masses that white folks are good and worthy, POC not so much. They needed a word to explain why white people were treated better in the workplace, and none existed. You say that white people have all the money and it's the money that means they're privileged. Well, in a way. They've used their privilege to prop up a whole system that continues to benefit them at the expense of everyone else. They advanced other white people's careers (and to be honest, this system is still mostly men), because they knew they could trust other white people to support that system.

That is what POC are talking about when they talk about white privilege. They're describing a subtle system that whites have created to 1. benefit them and 2. remind POC that, according to this system, they are inferior, whether it's in intelligence, class, "moral", ambition, strength, because they can never benefit from it the same way a white man can.

When people are talking about male privilege, they are talking about a similar social construct. It is easier to navigate this system if you are male, because it was made for men.

But in all seriousness, make a post about white privilege and the larger impact that white dominance has on Africa, especially as far as poverty and starvation would be concerned. It would be interesting to read.

[shaayecanaan]

304. From wikipedia

The New Left was a term used mainly in the United Kingdom and United States in reference to activists, educators, agitators and others in the 1960s and 1970s who sought to implement a broad range of reforms on issues such as gay rights, abortion, gender roles and drugs[2] in contrast to earlier leftist or Marxist movements that had taken a more vanguardist approach to social justice and focused mostly on labor unionization and questions of social class.[3][4] They rejected involvement with the labor movement and Marxism's historical theory of class struggle.

In the US, the rise of the New Left coincided with the emergence of identity politics, in which people were encouraged to self-identify as white, black or as members of some other ethnic group rather than as part of an economic class. This led to the splintering of the traditional working class coalition, which had admittedly been largely white and male in terms of its leadership, but which had nevertheless delivered substantial economic benefits for people of colour, who were after all overwhelmingly working class.

The New Left and old Left also differed significantly in their attitudes towards the notion of a ruling class. The old Left insisted on a general leveling of society and a reduction in the extent of economic equality. The New Left were amenable to a ruling class, provided that sufficient numbers of women and minorities were admitted as members.

Marx himself commented that the problem with social democracy is that the workers' party inevitably becomes, over time, the party of the alternative ruling class. Recent political history would indicate that he was correct.

[NuclearDem]

295. Uh, you know hunger and obesity aren't mutually exclusive, right?

In fact, people suffering from obesity are actually fairly likely to also be food insecure as well.

[RetroLounge]

121. Did you miss the part where he said "Don't be a dick?"

RL

[seabeyond]

124. lol, and that is the question. nt

[Drew Richards]

164. OOoOO you stepped in it now...here it comes wait for it...

[Hippo_Tron]

288. Why do you feel the need to dismiss one kind of privilege in order to point out another

Did you watch the part of the video where he said that at one point he was living in his car, but now he is fairly middle class and so he is definitely now privileged in that regard. Class privilege and male privilege are both very serious problems.

[sufrommich]

19. I love this man and every man like him.

Yay,cool dude!

[Paulie]

20. I'm a man. I'm not a dick. I don't hate women. I'm a feminist.

That was easy.

Taking my spouse's surname a decade ago gave me a but of practice before saying the above though.

[seabeyond]

31. lol. you go dude. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

39. heeee! good one!

[Matariki]

23. He's pretty funny!

Great video!

[oberliner]

25. Why does it matter that he's white?

Any reason why you made particular note of his race?

[LeftyMom]

26. Why don't you listen to the video and let that get explained in context?

[oberliner]

27. Fair enough

Not in a position to do so right now, though. Can you give me the gist?

[LeftyMom]

29. Why are you posting on a thread for a video you haven't watched?

I'm not going to caption the whole fucking video for you.

[oberliner]

32. Was intrigued by the thread title

Was curious why the race was important - will watch the video later I guess and find out! No need to swear.

[flvegan]

28. Yum.

[RC]

33. I am a man.

I am NOT a dick. I don't hate women.
So why do some around here treat me as if I am a dick and do hate (or disrespect) women?
Is it because I see disrespect toward me and others, by a certain group here as bullying. Why, Yes I do.
Do the members of this group in question, as a whole, show respect to anyone not of their group? Generally, no, they do not.

I have stated my views on numerous occasions and those posted views are totally ignored by them, in favor of belittling me for a word, a phrase or even a fictitious reason, for things I did not say, mean or even could not be reasonably misconstrued.

Again, for the record:
I am for Human Rights for all. Woman's Rights, is a subset of Human Rights, as we are all human, no matter our gender, gender preference, color, race, or anything else that maters to people that like to separate us.
I see little difference between the racist bigot (Duck Dynasty, comes to mind) that belittles and insults non-whites and the self-proclaimed feminist that like to get in your face for no other reason than you are not a woman. Instead of racism, it is another gender they are being bigots about.
Isn't there something in the DU Rules governing that?

Why yes, and here it is:

No bigoted hate speech.

Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion or lack thereof, disability, or other comparable personal characteristic. To be clear: This includes any post which states opposition to full equal rights for gays and lesbians; it also includes any post asserting disloyalty by Jewish Americans, claiming nefarious influence by Jews/Zionists/Israel, advocating the destruction of the state of Israel, or arguing that Holocaust deniers are just misunderstood. In determining what constitutes bigotry, please be aware that we cannot know what is in anyone's heart, and we will give members the benefit of the doubt, when — and only when — such doubt exists.

And again, for the record, I am not talking about all women everywhere, or even most women on DU. It is a group of people belonging to one group here on DU, that are the problem and stirring up the sticky crap by their very animosity towards the rest of DU. Then blaming others for resulting flames that they themselves caused.

[seabeyond]

34. "So why do some around here treat me as if I am a dick" cause every post you diss us?

bur i do not hate you. i do not even dislike you. you do not even bother me. that might be why you feel animosity from some, though.

[flvegan]

52. "Diss?" This poster somehow...disses (who says that anymore?) "us" with every post?

Wow, that's just crazy. Is that poster the Master of Diss-aster to whoever "us" is? if "every" post is a "diss" (again...what?) maybe it's just one views a certain side of a chosen mirror. But what do I know, I'm just a male.

[seabeyond]

55. you could always do a post search and clue yourself in, or continue on with you rant, unobstructed.

[flvegan]

63. I'd rather wait for your answer.

I think it will be so enlightening it will change my life. Or something.

[LeftyMom]

36. This post is not about internicine wars on DU. I think the role of women in society is important,

I don't really give a shit who wins some internet forum grudge match. My aim in posting this video was to explain the concept of male privilege to people who do not understand it, or who do not seem to be persuaded that it exists by examples provided by women.

I do not post in the group you're singling out.

I decided I was a feminist before I knew what that word was. Probably around the time I asked in CCD (which is basically Sunday School for Catholic kids) why women couldn't be priests and why did nuns do all the hard work? I believe that feminism, when properly practiced, is intersectional and focused on justice for everybody. I like dudes. I'm dating one. I made a little one.

I have never encountered one of these mythical feminists who hate men in the wild. I have encountered quite a few feminists who are impatient with woman hating assholes, and I see one in the mirror every morning.

Posting a funny video about a societal phenomenon is not hate speech by any sane definition.

[RC]

37. This group I was talking about, colors the whole of DU, whether anyone thinks so or not

Think if it as poisoning the well. We are all effected, because we all drink from it, just by being here.

[LeftyMom]

38. IP? The MRA group? The gungeon? The conspiracy group?

A whole lot of weird shit happens on DU. Welcome to the big tent.

[cinnabonbon]

110. I am glad you did, too.

There has been a lot of privilege on display recently, and it would be nice if people could take a step back and ask themselves ehy they are being so defensive or dismissive.

You sound like you know your stuff - i can't wait to see more of your posts in the future!

[Drew Richards]

173. You Rock! as always LeftyMom.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

60. Well said

[LeftyMom]

61. That poster does an excellent job of attacking a phenomenon that does not exist.

Nobody on this thread is attacking men for being men.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

66. Well I was attacked for nothing more than

Bringing other privilege into the discussion. I was labeled as target audience for this video despite the fact that I made no statements about this video either positive or negative.

My lol was for seeing the umpteenth "women are harrassed" thread this week.

[LeftyMom]

67. Nobody has a problem with discussing intersectional privilige.

Bringing up other advantages to pretend that patriarchy is not a pervasive problem in our society is either dishonest or dumb, and either way one can expect to be called out on it.

[laundry_queen]

71. Exactly

Once, a long time ago, I was in a support group where there was a wide range of experiences...and our motto was that we were not to compare our losses to other people's losses - that invalidating some people's experiences by stating ours was more devastating/important/a bigger loss/whatever was strictly not allowed. We all were dealing with losses and all losses were important. Because my loss may be considered 'worse' than yours didn't mean your loss was invalid, KWIM? I see this subject in the same way. As you stated, because I have an advantage in one area, doesn't mean I'm not disadvantaged in another. It's pointless to pretend my disadvantages don't exists, because that means lack of awareness, which leads to no improvements. We should always be striving to improve and lessen everyone's disadvantages, regardless of one's advantages.

[Egnever]

102. Way to perfectly prove his point.

[cinnabonbon]

111. Being told that his post is out of place

Is not the same as being attacked.

[RetroLounge]

122. Simply saying "Way to perfectly prove his point." does not prove anything

Kind of lazy and worthless as a post.

RL

[fishwax]

305. your subject line in response to the OP was "Lol."

When you respond to a discussion such as this by laughing at it, that makes it rather difficult to believe that you were simply and innocently doing "nothing more than / Bringing other privilege into the discussion."

[RC]

65. Thank you.

Something has to be done. I think they are taking advantage of the fact our Overlords here seem to have abandon us, at least fo rthe time being.

[BainsBane]

219. However anyone treats you

Is based on their perception of what you write, period. That goes for me as well as you.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

35. Win!

Now who could misrepresent this and twist it to be a personal slight against all males? (Yes I know that's a little bit contradictory, but not uncommon. Holding two mutually exclusive thoughts at the same time is called compartmentalisation)

I wonder who could come on this thread and do that?


To those who would do such a thing, I invite you to say what you like.

I then encourage you to go to the LGBT forum here and tell them you "don't like that they're not understanding that straights get mistreated too!! Straight people are victimized when you guys talk about gay issues!!! Without thinking of how you're broadbrushing straight people!!! I'm not bashing, I totally respect gay people!!"

After that exiliarating exercise, you are encouraged to pay a visit to the African American forum and tell them that you "don't like that they're not considering the plight of white people! There needs to be a little more white sympathy around here!! I'm not bashing I totally respect black people!!"

Okay? Deal?

[uppityperson]

41. Did you even listen to that video? Asking for tolerance is being a bully? Oh.

[NuclearDem]

42. And pizza in 3...2...1...

[uppityperson]

45. Aw, can't we keep it and play with it for a while?

[NuclearDem]

47. No, they keep peeing all over the damn rug.

[uppityperson]

50. Well, there is that.

[cyberswede]

44. So, you disagree with his position?

Can you state, specifically, which opinions of yours differ?

[LeftyMom]

49. Here's the deal: white dude is easy mode.

Try going through all of your problems with 70% of your pay. Or if you really want to rule on hard mode try lower pay, shitty schools, racist policing and health care inequities.

[catrose]

59. Like John Scalzi said

Straight white male is the lowest difficulty setting in the game called The Real World.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

[Shandris]

87. I'm sure I'm going to be accused of being a straight white male for this...

...but don't you think it's just a little bit obnoxious to claim ANY 'combination' of 'intersectionalities' to be "the lowest difficulty setting in the game called The Real World"?

This, in a subthread immediately following someone's example of how saying that one person's difficulty was worse than another didn't invalidate their experiences.

I hope against hope that this party hasn't fully embraced this 'I have it worse than X' mentality completely and that there is still -some- sanity left, even though it is personally beneficial to me for them to do so.

[Romulox]

120. That's a blog about the World of Warcraft, apparently. It's not a scholarly piece. nt

[NuclearDem]

73. You know, when you get banned, that means stay away.

Though you seem to have picked up some racism while you were gone.

[Romulox]

119. Aren't you the one who couldn't answer why wealth shouldn't "count" when defining "easy mode"?

You're not making any more sense here than you were before.

[LeftyMom]

132. No. You appear to have confused me with some other poster.

[seabeyond]

151. i was the one that asked you why.... you concluded i did not care about poor people,

from what i posted. and got no answer.

[hfojvt]

281. and the great thing about hearing that

is that here you are, unmarried, living in the bottom quintile of income, with two university degrees and working as a janitor.

Clearly, you lost. And lost badly.

And you were playing life in EASY mode. Damn, that is like losing on top of losing.

But not only do I find it insulting, I think it is simply untrue. People who say that simply have not walked a mile in white dude's shoes. Or they were born on 2nd base and think everybody else with their skin color and gender is also blessed.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

48. OMG!!

I hope this guy comes to RIT! I would love to interpret his show!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

69. Wow. He gets it.

I once had a discussion with a male friend in which I told him I wouldn't dare take his suggestion about doing my housework in the buff because I had a huge living room window with minimal window dressing. He seemed very confused and had no idea why I would be bothered by doing so. I had to explain that I wouldn't have a problem, but that I would worry about anyone who could possibly be watching me, especially the many men in my neighborhood. He still didn't get it. I then explained to him how women are often forced to move through this world differently than men, and gave him many concrete examples from my own life.

I had to (painfully) laugh at some of what Kilstein spoke about -- how many times in my younger days did I hear the "Bitch!" accusation when I didn't "appropriately" respond to a catcall/approach. :/

[NuclearDem]

93. How exactly do women have an easier life? Do tell.

Preferably before pizza is served.

[NuclearDem]

96. Those stereotypes and ideas are constructs of the patriarchy.

I've got a feeling most women would be happy to trade those for equal pay, not being sexually objectified, and not being raped.

I'll ignore the mansplaining thing and dog whistle sexism for now, though.

[LeftyMom]

98. If you want respect, be respectible.

If you can't get respect without the threat of violence it's because you're a waste of space.

[NuclearDem]

99. No, they're not.

Chivalry is not privilege.

Sorry, but that is just utterly laughable.

[Throd]

74. He is small and not handsome. He can't claim full privilege.

[Egnever]

103. Oddly I thought the same thing almost immediately.

All i could think the whole time i watched it was , this dude is not a member of the privileged club.

[whathehell]

113. Not odd at all, actually...When trying to refute an argument, people will check everything

It's like saying that since Barack Obama is a smart, well off man who happens to be president, he is immune from racism.

Beyond that, since you've decided that this dude is "not a member of the privileged club"

because he's not George Clooney, would you like to imagine what the life of an

unattractive woman is like?



Nah..I didn't think so.

[boston bean]

114. small = not man enough, (effeminate) is what I got out of the post.

[whathehell]

282. I didn't think of that but you might be right. n/t

[Throd]

297. You're not.

[whathehell]

298. I'm not WHAT?

[oberliner]

80. He comes across as a self-congratulatory jerk

Also, there is this:

The hypocrisy and sexism of Jamie Kilstein

http://justinvacula.com/2013/05/27/the-hypocrisy-and-sexism-of-jamie-kilstein/

[boston bean]

115. "gang-educated"

play on gang rape? in a thread about society that makes women fear?

Saying those persons will "gang-educate" someone?

[xulamaude]

127. Rape 'jokes' are not 'funny'.

Apparently 4 jurors agreed.

[NuclearDem]

126. Ah, a gang-rape joke. Stay classy, PW.

[NuclearDem]

83. That video from the link was from several years ago.

He's readily admitted many times that he was a sexist asshole for a long time, which is why he doesn't even sell his first stand up CD anymore.

Next.

[LeftyMom]

84. There's an ongoing issue in secular organizations about safe space policies and excluding predators.

A lot of prominent atheists are involved, and if you want to have a discussion about that I'd be happy to start another thread because there's years worth of history and a ton of people involved and none of it is more than tangentially related to this thread.

Suffice it to say that whoever-that-is's blog post isn't a very good summation of the situation.

[boston bean]

128. see this AVFM link

And tell me how much of this crap have you heard on this website:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/note-for-jamie-kilstein-on-male-privilege/

[LeftyMom]

129. But DU doesn't have an MRA problem!

[boston bean]

130. much of it could be copied and pasted.

I don't know, but those ideas aren't what drew me to progressivism. It's so twisted.

[xulamaude]

143. Yep - chapter and verse.

I find it interesting (...) that I have seen "misogynist" and 'misandrist' (spellcheck does not abide!) accidentally interchanged in what might be called a Freudian Slip and that accusations of 'white knight' appear here.

But, yeah: What's an MRA??? Well whatever they are, there aren't any here at DU!!!

[demmiblue]

155. The poster who referred to women as "cum receptacles/toilets" still posts here.

Nope, nothing to see here.

He also told another DUer to pull his pud. Charming, isn't it?

[NuclearDem]

131. Bingo!

I got "female privilege", men assaulted more than women, "I'm not a sexist but..." (Free space actually), "feminists don't actually care about men's problems", and creep shaming!

[boston bean]

133. The same exact tactics used to basically attack feminism.

Truly, I do not know why that is allowed here on a democratic board.

These fella's think feminists control government, control the courts, control society.

[KitSileya]

135. My mind is still blown by the numbers I discovered yesterday about violent crimes.

2.54% of men (it had increased from 2.01% in 2010) and women 1.98% (1.85% in 2010) were victims of violent crimes in 2011 according to BJS. With serious violent crimes, (rape, sexual assault, robbery and aggravated assault) it was .77% and .67% respectively.

Having always heard that men were at so much greater risk for violence than women, these numbers really surprised me. Especially if one looks at the 2010 numbers (I do wonder what caused the 25% increase in male victims in 2011?) there's hardly any difference in the numbers at all. Of course, there probably is a difference in what kind of violent crimes is typically visited on each gender - women being raped, and men being victims of aggravated assault, for example, tho my source doesn't say, but only someone really callous would argue about what is worse, rape or aggravated assault?

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

[NuclearDem]

136. Exactly. A punch in the face, while not okay and not defensible, is not the same as a rape.

[Major Nikon]

137. Aggravated assault

aggravated assault

n. the crime of physically attacking another person which results in serious bodily harm and/or is made with a deadly or dangerous weapon such as a gun, knife, sword, ax or blunt instrument. Aggravated assault is usually a felony punishable by a term in state prison.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2374

[NuclearDem]

138. Yes, I know what aggravated assault is.

Thank you.

Still not as traumatic as rape.

[Major Nikon]

149. Then why claim it was a punch in the face?

Someone who is shot, stabbed, or beaten nearly to death is a victim of aggravated assault. The physical and psychological effects (severe injuries, PTSD, etc.) are certainly the same. The idea that one victim of severe violence is better or worse off than another is not a good one. In my state (and I suspect most, if not all states) aggravated assault can be all the way up to a 1st degree felony, which is the same for the worst sort of rape.

[NuclearDem]

152. I never said it couldn't be traumatizing.

But it's not the same as rape or sexual violence.

[Major Nikon]

157. It's not the same because they are different crimes

However, both are crimes of severe violence. Rape can be as low as a 3rd degree felony in Texas (and probably similarly in every other state). Aggravated assault can be as high as a 1st degree felony. So the legal system certainly recognizes some instances of aggravated assault are more severe than some instances of rape.

[seabeyond]

162. read this story, of this cop, that was raped. THEN come back and chat with us

that there is no difference.

My boss was also a friend, so I decided to tell him what had happened. I was clear that I didn't want to make an official report. But he called in two other officers, opened a case file and started an investigation. I was horrified. I said I wouldn't help but they kept saying they had a duty to protect one of their own. I believe they thought they were doing the right thing, but if I'd been any other victim, my wishes would have come foremost. They perhaps felt they could put extra pressure on me because, as a copper, I didn't need the careful handling we give other victims.

I was furious but dumbfounded. The strain on me was – and still is – intense. The sexual abuse team ask me to meetings where they say the same thing, again and again: "We appreciate you don't want to substantiate this allegation but what else can you give us?" Then they say they'll come back to me in a couple of weeks to see if I've changed my mind. This relentless stress means I can't start coming to terms with what's happened to me. I want to sign a closure statement that puts all this behind me. I keep telling them that I'm not refusing to co-operate to be difficult. I tell them repeatedly that I don't want to talk about it because it was horrible and I want it to go away. I want to not think about it any more.

My experience has led me to seriously contemplate whether I or other officers investigating similar serious sexual assaults put undue pressure on victims. Do we push victims to go through the court process? Do we do it for the right reason – because we want to fight crime – but, in doing so, not listen to what the victims are telling us? The pressure my colleagues put on me was conscious – but I think there's a risk that we do it subconsciously in other cases. That worries me deeply.

Another question I've had to ask myself is why, as a police officer, I am not doing everything I can to get my attacker off the streets. But I'm a victim first and a police officer second. I'm not the first victim to decide not to press charges, and I won't be the last. Being a cop means I know the system, and it has scared me off. I know this case would be likely to end in court and, from that point, I couldn't maintain my anonymity. I couldn't cope with the added burden of being a cop as well as a victim.

http://www.theguardian.com/global/2011/apr/04/raped-policeman-colleagues-investigation

[Major Nikon]

175. Claiming I said there was no difference is intellectually dishonest

I never claimed that and I specifically said there was a difference.

[seabeyond]

183. you absolutely were comparing. it is a mans experience. and excellent story for insight and

understanding on a number of levels.

yet, you ignored the story. refusal to even try to be educated as you argue your point.

if after reading story and it did not touch you at all, then that is yours. cool. but... you could not even be bothered with the rape of a man, a cop and all he learned and experienced.

[Major Nikon]

188. You are still building your strawman

I did read the story. It's extremely tragic. That doesn't mean there aren't stories of victims of aggravated assault which include people who have been made paraplegic, brain dead, or suffer severe PTSD. That's why both of those crimes include maximum penalties which are the most severe in the nation short of capital punishment. Do I really need to post those victims' stories to match your appeal to emotion?

http://news.yahoo.com/police-paraplegic-castrated-philly-facility-100722973.html

[seabeyond]

190. raped, gang raped, tortured and murdered. are we really to the point where we are in competition

in violence? really major? and i do not know how you read that very long story in seconds and able to post to me and everyone else in this subthread. the point of me putting it up is i really feel it is a profound expression on rape in different aspects and very valuable from a police point of view, in experience. not a gotcha. not a competition

[Major Nikon]

193. They absolutely should not be in competition

That was my entire point had you bothered to read and understand it rather than wrongfully assuming the worst and running with it.

[seabeyond]

200. two different animals. you want to make them comparable and really has nothing to

do with what the man is saying in the video. what you are doing is derailing the conversation, ringing in a comparison to dismiss the issue of the OP. for whatever personal reason you have on here. some things are simply not an argument. should be readily agreed. yet, the refusal to allow a simple understanding of another is paramount

[Major Nikon]

204. Strawman rhetoric is most certainly derailing the conversation

It's meaningless background noise and has no place in civil discussion. I get that you feel as if everything that doesn't fall into lock step with your ideas is taken to the extreme, but not everyone feels that way.

[seabeyond]

209. like the kid that sticks fingers in ear, keep saying strawman, ignore what is posted, then add

a little personal insult. how about actually addressing what is posted.

[Major Nikon]

242. I have no issues addressing my own assertions

But I'm not going to address strawman gibberish other than to identify it as such.

I think that's fair, but I'm not convinced you have any interest in good faith discussion.

[NuclearDem]

167. There are far more factors than just what the legal system says about severity.

Inability to be intimate with a partner, forced to decide between either the stigma of an abortion or carrying a rapist's child to term, being blamed for their own assault, possibly contracting an STD, etc.

Aggravated assault is terrible, and every victim of violence deserves to have their situation taken seriously. But rape and sexual assault, by nature of they're being sexual crimes, carry further burdens that victims of other violent crimes don't have to deal with.

[Major Nikon]

182. Some victims of aggravated assault are made tetraplegic or worse

That in no way minimizes the effects of rape, but trying to claim one is always worse than the other is not a good argument.

[NuclearDem]

192. Some, not all.

Again, not trying to minimalize what victims of other violent crimes.

There are about 5000 spinal injuries per year in the US that result in quadriplegia, including as a result of violent crime and accidents. On the other hand, one in every six women in the US is sexually assaulted, which is about 3000 per year, and that's probably low considering under reporting.

Every victim of rape or sexual assault has to deal with at least one of the following:
1) Risk of contracting an STI
2) Pregnancy, then either having to carry the pregnancy to term or end it.
3) Inability to deal with intimacy, and possibly the loss of a significant other.
4) Victim blaming.

And yes, it's absolutely relevant to discuss one being worse than the other when we have people arguing that women don't have it so bad, or that men actually have it worse than women.

[Major Nikon]

198. Who exactly is making those arguments on DU?

I certainly haven't. As far as I'm concerned one rape is one too many, reported or not, but I'd also say the same about other severe violent crimes like aggravated assault and homicide. I don't see the dichotomy. Both can and should be addressed.

[seabeyond]

207. who in the fuck would say "severe violent crimes like aggravated assault and homicide" is not bad.

anyone????

would anyone????

now, who dismisses rape? welll, hell. look at the court system. look at our congress critters. look at movies and media. look at our culture. look at society as a whole. look at police. look at whole fuckin towns that support the rapist.

do. you. get. it. yet?

that is why we are discussing this and not "severe violent crimes like aggravated assault and homicide"

[Major Nikon]

226. I didn't bring it up

Perhaps you should be having this conversation with the ones who did.

Just sayin'

[seabeyond]

228. dodge, weave, weave, dodge, but NEVER address what is posted to you.

[Major Nikon]

245. Quote my actual statement

Rather than what you think I said, then we'll have something to talk about. Addressing strawman gibberish is a fool's errand.

[shaayecanaan]

241. nuclear dem did

and I quote:

Thank you.

Still not as traumatic as rape.

[seabeyond]

247. you obviously did not read my post either, did you. the point. who is not appalled by

violently attacking another. no one.

who dismisses rape? many. read and address what i actually post

[shaayecanaan]

249. aggravated assault is just a "punch in the face", apparently

would you like it if I characterised sexual assault as being "a slap on the arse"?

I think not.

[seabeyond]

257. again. you totally ignored the point of my post. if you cannot even address the

point of my post, that says it all. a fail

[shaayecanaan]

260. Well, you could try punctuating it properly...

but whatever. If someone had made such a stupid remark about rape, I would have insisted that they walk it back and apologise. But Ive come to expect no better from some people.

[seabeyond]

262. when all else fails about your argument, go to grammar. lame.

[KitSileya]

154. I was talking two categories, one a sub-category of the other.

Violent crimes, and serious violent crimes. Punching in the face and rape both belong to the main category of violent crimes, even if they don't both belong to the category serious violent crimes.

[LeftyMom]

156. I've been the victim of rape and attempted murder (separate incidents, same perpetrator)

The former was considerably more traumatizing than the latter, though the latter did far more physical damage and resulted in a decent sized hospital stay.

I just want to point that out, since anti-woman posters on this thread seem to think they're talking about a philosophical debate and not the actual experiences of actual women they're arguing with.

[boston bean]

163. Lefty (HUGS)

But I want you to know. I have never shared one damned thing personal about myself here on DU, yet I am told over and over again by these persons that I must be damaged to have an opinion like yours, and that I need to get some help, and that my opinion is skewed. Even asking me what could have possibly happened to me to have a feminist POV.

I've had it to about to friggin here, with those comments.

So brace yourself for future discussions.

[LeftyMom]

168. They can say whatever they want, obviously I've made it through worse.

Thank you for the support, I really do appreciate it.

[KitSileya]

174. I worry, tbh, about what I share on DU.

I know it can be used against me in the future. At the same time, I am also invested in ending the silence around these issues, and to do so, I speak out about my experiences.

[Major Nikon]

166. I have no doubt many here are victims of both of those crimes

Both are quite common. However, there's no question the law in every state and all advanced countries certainly recognize different degrees of both crimes. Pointing out demonstrably true facts are not "anti-woman".

[LeftyMom]

170. Arguing with women who have been raped about how traumatic rape is? That's anti-woman.

It's not even kinda sorta debatably anti-woman. It's straight up ignorant and hateful.

You don't know. We do. We're telling you. Believe us or don't, but stop disrespecting our experiences. I won't stand for it.

[Major Nikon]

177. I'll thank you not to inject words or meanings I never stated or intended

[LeftyMom]

179. I'll thank you to show respect to women on this thread or GTFO.

[boston bean]

181. +1000, arguing MRA stats on a thread like this is extremely disrespectful.

But it is a way to derail conversation and diminish womens experiences!

[Major Nikon]

248. What are "MRA stats" and where were they made exactly?

Links and quotes would be brilliant.

Malicious misrepresentation is considered extremely disrespectful by most reasonable people, btw. YMMV.

[boston bean]

250. The stats you were twisting to try to make it seem

like rape wasn't as bad as aggravated assault.

[boston bean]

251. The twisting of stats that were given to make it diminish

rape, so you could talk about male victims of aggravated assault.

How much more clear could I be.

[Major Nikon]

254. Quotes would certainly make it more clear

This post in this thread predates any of mine. Furthermore I didn't so much as mention the gender of anyone.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4256665

Since you can't back up your assertions when asked, I think it's fair to assume you're just making things up.

[boston bean]

255. Were there or were there not stats mentioned at the beginning of this sub thread

that turned into a discussion, which you then came into and started to pick on someone saying "a punch in the face".

Go back and read. I'm not going to sit here and provide a play by play. You know how to use DU.

[Major Nikon]

259. The post in which you replied was in reference to me

I never mentioned any stats, period. Again you're being disingenuous.

I do know how to use DU. Perhaps you don't. I'm not sure what other explanations exist here.

179. I'll thank you to show respect to women on this thread or GTFO.

Response to Major Nikon (Reply #177)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024252923#post179

181. +1000, arguing MRA stats on a thread like this is extremely disrespectful.

Response to LeftyMom (Reply #179)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024252923#post181

[boston bean]

263. You were using the stats and the difference between assault, rape and aggravated assault.

Doing so, to minimize the statistics that were mentioned upthread. And, I will add, women's personal experience.

Now, if you want to say you never meant to do that, or that it wasn't your intention, well reflect on it, because that is exactly how it came across, and that would not be the fault of anyone pointing it out.

[Major Nikon]

268. I never mentioned any stats

I already told you this yet still you continue to claim it without providing any direct quotes even when such quotes were requested.

I never mentioned gender yet you claimed I did and failed to acknowledge you were just flat wrong.

I asked what stats, and you never linked to them.

Why do you insist on dodging relevant questions?

[boston bean]

272. You took the classifications mentioned in the stats

to make the stats appear they said something different than what they were actually saying.

Ie. a punch in the face cannot be aggravated assault.

[Major Nikon]

274. You mean the "MRA stats", right?

Or are you talking about different stats now? I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly what you're alleging because frankly I have absolutely no idea since you refuse to be specific.

I mentioned no stats. I referenced no stats. I never alluded to any stats. If you think I did, then provide my exact quote, along with the specific post # so I can figure out what you're claiming. Since you obviously know how to use DU this shouldn't be that difficult.

[boston bean]

280. I've explained it a bunch of times.

If someone/you wants to disagree that the tactics used in this thread haven't been employed by the MRA community, then please do so. Instead of all of this, back and forth and denial that you weren't using the terminology in the stats to try to diminish the actual stats that were being discussed and to cast doubt upon them to derail conversation. Which is an often found tactic in the MRA world. If you weren't doing that, then don't take my comment so to heart.

Obviously I wasn't the only one who felt pretty aggrieved by your comments.

[Major Nikon]

184. I'm not being disrespectful to anyone

I'm not sure you can make that claim.

[LeftyMom]

185. You're disrespecting women, downplaying their experiences, and attempting to derail the discussion.

Go bother somebody else.

[Major Nikon]

205. I'm sorry you feel that way

But that was never my assertion or intent. You can bother me all you want, btw.

[seabeyond]

186. throwing up a strawman picture, dismissing what is being posted IS disrespectful and

dismissive.

[Major Nikon]

189. Logical fallacies should be dismissed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The intentional application of fallacy in making one's argument certainly can be considered disrespectful and dismissive.

[seabeyond]

191. no. it feels like a game. i am sorry. and i am done

[KitSileya]

195. Have you considered that the laws might not have caught up to the changing views on rape?

I mean, it's only 20 years since marital rape was made a crime in all states (even if in South Carolina they require excessive force of an aggravated nature to classify it as rape.) Did you think about that before you started posting your strawman pics? Did you actually listen to the poster who has experience both? Do you bother to listen to us when we recount our experiences?

[Major Nikon]

201. If someone is making a strawman argument, they get a strawman pic

I made no judgement calls about anything and posted relevant facts. Turning a factual assertion that a punch in the face is not aggravated assault into rape apologia is intellectuality dishonest. At best it's bullying and at worst it's defamatory.

[KitSileya]

206. That's not what NuclearDem said, tho.

I posted about two categories, one of which was a sub-category of the other. Violent crimes - includes both punching in the face and rape. That's where the difference in number of victims was. In serious violent crimes, not so big difference. So NuclearDem pointed out that a punch in the face (i.e., violent crimes, where you had 25% more male victims) wasn't as bad as rape (i.e., serious violent crimes, where the difference in numbers was .1 percentage point.) You were the one who misunderstood, and posted the definition of aggravated assault, and said that in some states, some types of aggravated assault is considered worse than some types of rape, even after someone who has experienced both told you that she considered rape worse. That is dismissing the experience of a rape survivor, and that is rape apologia.

[Major Nikon]

213. Quotes

You

Of course, there probably is a difference in what kind of violent crimes is typically visited on each gender - women being raped, and men being victims of aggravated assault, for example, tho my source doesn't say, but only someone really callous would argue about what is worse, rape or aggravated assault?

NuclearDem

Exactly. A punch in the face, while not okay and not defensible, is not the same as a rape.

Regardless of what you did or did not mean, do you see how a reasonable person could have inferred that "A punch in the face" = "aggravated assault"?

You

You were the one who misunderstood, and posted the definition of aggravated assault, and said that in some states, some types of aggravated assault is considered worse than some types of rape, even after someone who has experienced both told you that she considered rape worse. That is dismissing the experience of a rape survivor, and that is rape apologia.

Facts aren't rape apologia regardless of what you think.

[boston bean]

218. More derailing tactics. Aggravated assault can be a punch in the face.

Rumford man faces aggravated assault charge after allegedly punching out woman’s front teeth

http://bangordailynews.com/2012/01/25/news/police-beat/rumford-man-faces-aggravated-assault-charge-after-allegedly-punching-out-womans-front-teeth/

[Major Nikon]

224. You can die from a punch in the face

So this could also include murder. Severe injury requiring hospitalization certainly fits the definition of aggravated assault, but I don't think that's what the poster in which I replied was referring otherwise they wouldn't have specifically mentioned a punch in the face. I'm more inclined to believe you are trying to derail the conversation here.

From your link:

A charge of aggravated assault is normally used when a weapon is involved but Garbarini said in this case the Class B charge was used due to the nature of the woman’s injuries.

Just sayin'

[boston bean]

225. Right so it isn't always dependent upon a weapon, it is the severity of the assault, that is key.

So, he wasn't wrong. You were and you were nitpicking.

[Major Nikon]

243. So why specifically mention a punch in the face?

Rather than saying 'beat nearly to death with a baseball bat'?

You are simply being disingenuous.

[boston bean]

253. I didn't mention a punch in the face, although that can be aggravated assault, as you now know.

I'm not disingenuous at all. I responded to you about it, cause you made a hell of a big deal about it.

[Major Nikon]

256. Demonstrably untrue

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4257479

[boston bean]

258. OMG, It was in response to your insistence it was NOT aggravated assault.

Which I proved to you was not the case.

[Major Nikon]

261. Context matters to some

YMMV.

[boston bean]

264. Context certainly does matter and any objective reading

will show, that I piped in to the conversation about aggravated assault and punch in the face, not because it was something that I brought up, but to show you that a punch in the face can be classified as aggravated assault.

[boston bean]

267. I'm irrelevant? I'll let me loved ones know.

Have a good one.

[Major Nikon]

269. As much as you want to be

[boston bean]

273. classy.

[Major Nikon]

275. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4257111

[Major Nikon]

222. Absolutely

I haven't looked at the laws of all 52 US jurisdictions, but I've seen enough to know that there is significant variance between some states so the idea that some states have yet to catch up to others certainly has merit.

Now that I've answered your question, I have one or two for you.

Do you think the minimum penalty for rape in all states should be raised to life in prison without parole?

Followup question...

Do you think the maximum penalty for aggravated assault should be lowered in all states from life in prison without parole?

[KitSileya]

227. Oh, for heaven's sake.

You are comparing the very worst aggravated assaults to the mildest rape cases, and pretending they are equal. We have at least one DUer who has experienced both, and she said that in her opinion, rape was worse. That doesn't automatically mean that the minimum sentence for rape should be life without parole. I live in a country with a 21-year maximum sentence, unless the risk of reoffending is so high that there's a direct and credible threat to the public if the offender is released, and even then he or she is given psychiatric treatment, and their incarceration is reassessed every 3 years. I think life without parole is ridiculous for any crime, especially with the inhumane treatment prisoners get in American jail.

And happy new year, by the way. It just turned midnight here.

[Major Nikon]

252. I'm not pretending they are equal

I specifically pointed out they weren't.

You are accusing me of rape apologia for pointing out that the law lists a higher maximum punishment for some aggravated assaults vs some rapes. This was my assertion:

Someone who is shot, stabbed, or beaten nearly to death is a victim of aggravated assault. The physical and psychological effects (severe injuries, PTSD, etc.) are certainly the same. The idea that one victim of severe violence is better or worse off than another is not a good one. In my state (and I suspect most, if not all states) aggravated assault can be all the way up to a 1st degree felony, which is the same for the worst sort of rape.

Is this rape apologia, yes or no? The person in question made their statement in response to mine, not the other way around as you wrongly suggested. I never disputed she considered either of her experiences worse than the other. You also suggested that the law simply hasn't caught up with the crime which whether true or not doesn't contradict my assertion.

If you are going to make those sort of serious accusations, you should either back them up or withdraw them assuming you have any interest in civility. If not I'll simply assume you don't.

The point of my questions (which you refused to answer directly even though I answered yours directly, btw) was that the law certainly considers some aggravated assault cases worse than some rapes, you even imply this yourself with your last statement. That's no less rape apologia than my claim.

Making accusations of rape apologia because someone points out facts you consider inconvenient or disagrees with you has no place in civil conversation and is boorish at best.

[xulamaude]

238. "not the actual experiences of actual women they're arguing with"

Yes.

This is not a philosophical 'issue' to those who have actually been raped/sexually assaulted. It is real, lived experience.

ETA - FFS...

[Major Nikon]

278. The same is true for all experience

I would never suggest that anyone who does have experience on any topic can't add value to the discussion. I don't think anyone else has either.

[KitSileya]

140. Yeah, and even though I picture aggravated assault as something more violent

than a punch to the face, just the numbers... I thought we'd be in the neighborhood of 2 or 3 or even 4 times more male victims than female victims. That's the impression we're given, isn't it?

I mean, we have numbers that show that 9 out of 10 rape victims are girls or women, (3% of all American men will experience an attempted or completed rape in their lifetimes, so head math says 27% of women will experience the same?) so it seems to me like pretty much all the other crimes in the serious violent crimes category have predominantly male victims. I haven't been robbed, or beaten, so I can't categorically say that rape is worse, but using myself as anecdata, I'd have rather been been beaten.

[NuclearDem]

141. Yeah, I just used punch in the face for rhetorical purposes.

[KitSileya]

146. Tbh, I wasn't sure what counted as aggravated assault.

So with Major Nikon's definition, I can safely say I would rather have been stabbed.

[shaayecanaan]

244. Why did you attempt to minimise it in that way?

You're still minimising. I have represented numerous people who have suffered serious assaults for criminal injuries compensation. I remember one man who had a pool cue broken over his head in a bar. He suffered a TBI and can no longer walk and only speaks in fragments. How the fuck would you know how profound his suffering is?

Plenty of women suffer terribly on account of serious assaults at the hands of men. Plenty.

If you were attempting to dismiss their concerns for "rhetorical purposes" then I have to say that they were pretty piss-poor rhetorical purposes.

[Gormy Cuss]

142. Filled my BINGO card, yessah.

I think I've seen every one of those talking points here.

[boston bean]

144. It's almost verbatim. People just don't understand what it is we are dealing with here.

I think if people did know and they learned that it was just an attack on feminism, we would see a quick turn about here.

[seabeyond]

161. they have a small little group to blame. the problem, most of the OPs are not made by the small

little group they are blaming. (i did not put up one OP). and it is many many voices, men and women. not this small little group they get to blame in each and every post, with no repercussion.

[Gormy Cuss]

187. The owners of the site have the ability to understand the pattern and act to correct it.

Instead, juries are expected to pick up on the nuances and judge accordingly. I don't fault jurors for missing it, I fault the lax moderation system under the host/jury model of DU3.

[boston bean]

202. It really is admins issue. Or we will just have to keep beating the drum

until people realize what is permeating through this site, and the attacking of feminists that you and I, and many others experience.

[Sheldon Cooper]

210. I think that as long as the site is adequately monitized, there will continue to be

a very hands-off attitude. Why bother to change when you are making money?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

216. And I suspect the ongoing drama/hostilities

lead to clicks which leads to $, no? It seems that
if they shut down the sexism, that might lead to
lost $? From the admins pov, the place runs itself
compared to DU2. Bound to lose some passion for
an enterprise over a dozen years, however much
that passion/idealism/progressivism inspired the place
in the beginning... Also a lot of people who do
not care for the way DU3 is & is run, still have
stars by their names. But I suspect more & more
revenue comes from ads, which means clicks
are more important now, stars probably less so.
Anyway, it's just business?

[Sheldon Cooper]

233. You are right. More page hits = more $, and big flame wars lead to way more page hits.

People can buy a star here for as little as a dollar, or so I've been led to believe, so the ad revenue is definitely where the flow is coming from. So yeah, as long as you don't have to do much to keep the money flowing in, why bother changing anything?

[Egnever]

104. Helps what?

[myrna minx]

116. K&R - Thanks for posting. It's too bad this needs to be posted here, but I'm

glad you did.

[Romulox]

117. LOL at this being right under the Laura Dimon thread! Even that women has white male privilege! nt

[DLevine]

125. Great video. Thanks for posting it. nt

[valerief]

134. Hey, that was good! nt

[AtheistCrusader]

211. Reminds me of this Louis CK bit.

[seabeyond]

214. exactly. a duh. and still it is argued thru out the thread. but, ya, i have seen this

it is great.

[seabeyond]

212. i gotta say, my rw knuckledgraggin fox watching brother would say this is a duh.

not to mention my conservation father, husband and brother.

they would say a lot of other shit, but this would be a duh. and to have the FEW men in this thread fighting so hard to dismiss this man, regardless of the other men on here saying duh.... should really speak loudly to men on a progressive board.

no, it was not the small group of bad bad women picking on the men. no it is not only the voice of those few bad bad women.

but, i think it says so very much that there are men in this thread working so very hard to dismiss and ignore womens experience.

i am going to get onto my new years eve celebration.

something is really wrong here.

[Rex]

230. Gosh, by now I should have realized that other thread was in response to

something else!

[seabeyond]

234. never mind. just saw what you were talking about. nt

[Rex]

235. Another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024257033

Didn't read through the entire thing. Should have guessed it was in response to something else posted.

[seabeyond]

236. ya, rex. happy new years, to you and yours... let 2014 be all

you want and need it to be.

[Rex]

270. You too.

Have a great Holidays. I hope for more peace and understanding in the world. We need it.

[BainsBane]

240. Of course

Because Meta never really died. It just morphed into GD.

[Rex]

271. Yeah I think it is like 50/50 now GD/meta.

nt.

[blackspade]

237. Exactly on point.

[BainsBane]

303. 92 recs for this and 134 for the anti-harassment PSA

It certainly appears that large numbers of DUers do not consider these threads as the "gender bickering" some insist feminists are responsible for. The fact that many of those recs are from men also tells me that reasonable men don't see these posts as attacking their entire gender.